Vote for President. (No Flaming)

[Utamaro]

I havn't seen a thread that gives a poll on who would the community of tao vote for sense Kerry and Bush are the only two who stand a chance at this point in time those will be hte choices. Please feel free to debate here and argue your point.

[Aro23r]

I'd vote Libertarian if I were old enough to legally vote.

[Utamaro]

I missed it by a month :-\ But sense it is decided tonight I didn't add the other parties sense they have a lower count then the two I put as choices.

[Kalamady]

Bush.

[Aro23r]

Well, of the two listed, I'd go Bush, but I would not vote for him at the official polls.

[lostandconfused]

I would vote Bush if I were legal voting age.

[actgfin1234]

I'd vote Nader had he still been on the ballots. BTW Hey Aro, i got my computer fixed...what have you been up to?

[MANSLAUGHTER1]

Even though it might be a wast of a vote I think Ralph Nadar might do good in peace wise because he might save more people.

I think that Bush and Kerry will only concentrate on the war instead of wellfare and everything else besides the war.

[Utamaro]

Hmmm, I agree they both dwuel on war. ( Bush/Kerry ) If you go and vote your not wasting a vote it's if you do not use your vote then it is being wasted.

[***Duo***]

I'd vote Libertarian if I were old enough to legally vote.

Your note 18 yet?
:eek:
You must be the youngest mod yet...
By the way Aro...what does the 23 make your name say?


-Duo

[Utamaro]

I'm almost 18 yay but maybe the 2 = a z and the 3 = E so mabye it might be Arozer lol instead of Aro23r. ;)

[ArcPaladinZero]

I voted for Badnarik this morning. If you don't know who he is then you are just another uneducated person.

[Utamaro]

He was from the Libertarian party right?

[ArcPaladinZero]

Yes. :)

[Kalamady]

I wish Sharpton was running. :(

[Utamaro]

I wanted to take a class at my high school "political afairs" But I had no room. :( next year I am though.

[Trintia]

I wish to keep Bush in office. :)

[Jeffery]

Uta, make one specifying ONLY US citizens of legal voting age should vote here. We did one a while back like that, and the totals were much different than what you are seeing here, mainly because most of the kids are skewing the results.

[T3 Terminater]

George Bush Please, The last thing we need is Kerry to become president only because the issues in Iraq. Once you go in and invade a country you have to stay and help build it back to its original state. If we elect Kerry he might just evacuate and leave all the work for the Iraqi citizens. :D

[T3km4n]

I would have voted for Bush. Does anyone here watch The Daily Show? It is hilarious. It went through why many candidates weren't chosen, then says "And alas, Al Sharpton was black, so he wasn't voted for."*simleys still suck*

[Utamaro]

Ok, Jeffery I'll make another one but even then how would I know if people were really 18 or not when they voted?

[Kalamady]

Bush is ahead in the *real* polls.

[Utamaro]

Woot!

[Kalamady]

Yeah, Bush = awesome...





While we wait for Bush to win....isn't my banner the most pimpin thing you ever saw?

[***Duo***]

Not really.
Bush could win...I don't know at the moment...its alot closer than it was a couple of months ago...where if you had asked me then...I would have stated simply that Bush was going to win.


-Duo

[Utamaro]

Yea it is really close. :-\ *hopes Bush wins*

[***Duo***]

By the way...have you guys noticed the new "Reputation" boxs?
*Clicks button thousands of times*
"You can't give yourself reputation points"
Crap.


-Duo :)

[Twelve]

Kalamady, that sig is off the HOOK.

And all I know is that my entire day is screwed tomorrow. It's 3am right now, and I'm not sleeping until I know who's president.

12

[MANSLAUGHTER1]

Well Utamaro it doesn't matter about wasting votes in my part because I'm to young to vote.

[Utamaro]

lol sucks.

[MANSLAUGHTER1]

I know this might be the most important election in history and I'm not apart of it.

[Legion Leader]

i would vote for Bush because kerry changes what he says alot so we dont know what the hell he is talking about and he is lying about things he said too.

[Foundation]

i'm canadian so i don't know a thing about the politics or issue of US election but as a man i choose Bush lol...basically they're just like coke and pepsi to me

[Legion Leader]

well if you didnt know the politics and your from canada then y did you post here?

[Midnight Walker]

I'd vote Libertarian if I were old enough to legally vote.
Same here, Michael Badnarik all the way.

[Demon night]

i personaly(even though i am canadian) would vote for Kerry. i Think bush *patdon my french* is a scum bag. Do you know he only went into Irak for oil..Watch farenhite 9/11 and you get my statement

[Demon night]

and i do follow the politics

[Demon night]

I'd vote Libertarian if I were old enough to legally vote.

Aro, u know bush is thinking of drafting for the war? if u were 18 you could be sent to Iraq

[Legion Leader]

but that dumbass that made that movie doesnt like bush so he can say anything about him and ppl will think it is true..right now bush is winning

VOTES

BUSH: 165

KERRY: 112

HA if bush wins i want to laugh in that fat dudes face that made F 9/11 sry i cant spell good.

[Legion Leader]

Bush said "There will be no Draft what so ever"

[Kalamady]

44 polls closed and so far Bush is up 193 to 112.

[Legion Leader]

good

[Tech_Jester]

Thats nothing special. Everything has gone as predicted so far.

[cuckoo]

Many states like New York, California, ect. have not been counted up yet. These are all strong Kerry supporters.


Oh yeah, I would vote for Nader.

[drakonfire]

actually new york has been counted, as kerry

ohio and california are still uncounted, and ohio seems to be leaning kerry and california is a typically democratic state

EDIT:
oops, ohhio just went the other way in percentage... still isnt declared who wins though

[Midnight Walker]

I still think (hope) Kerry has a decent chance. I think it's going to be really close.

[Midnight Walker]

Update, we got Cali, but Arizona went Bush. Now only trailing by 20.

[Aro23r]

Ohio went Bush, so he now has 266. Add in the 3 from the major Republican state of Alaska and he is wins regardless of the other states. For even if Kerry were to sweep all of them, it would then be a tie and the election would be settled in the House of Representatives, which is Republican.

[GreenS@murai!]

i think Bush has this election in the bag...he got some big states (texas) and a lot of other ones. Did Florida go Bush? and now i hear ohio goes to Bush? wow....

[S_K_O_F]

Uta, make one specifying ONLY US citizens of legal voting age should vote here. We did one a while back like that, and the totals were much different than what you are seeing here, mainly because most of the kids are skewing the results.


actually...according to cnn...this poll is only 4 percentage points off of the actual country vote

[Jeffery]

Ohio went Bush, so he now has 266. Add in the 3 from the major Republican state of Alaska and he is wins regardless of the other states. For even if Kerry were to sweep all of them, it would then be a tie and the election would be settled in the House of Representatives, which is Republican.
They are projecting Bush. But the margin is 200k, but there are a HUGE number of provisional votes here in Ohio. Bush might just lose the popular here.

[S_K_O_F]

They are projecting Bush. But the margin is 200k, but there are a HUGE number of provisional votes here in Ohio. Bush might just lose the popular here.

there are (according to CNN and Fox News) around 250000 provisional votes left

bush has a lead currently (1:00 am cst) of around 130,000 votes

in order for Kerry to win he has to win around of 190,000 of 250,000 votes

i guess it is possible

[Jeffery]

Yes. But the provisional is not counted for days yet, so the electoral will be decided by then. Ohio..... will.... go..... Bu..sh.

Eww. That was horrible.

[DeadFishGuy]

I just heard the news guy on my radio say this:

Kerry must win it to be in with a chance of becoming president.

You don't say! :rolleyes:

BTW, those were his exact words.

[AssassinOfLords]

If Bush wins Ohio it's over. If Kerry wins Ohio, there is a way for Bush to win. If he wins Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Nevada, he would win. All of which are split fairly evenly. Bush does have the upper hand.

BTW...GO BUSH!

[Jeffery]

i think Bush has this election in the bag...he got some big states (texas) and a lot of other ones. Did Florida go Bush? and now i hear ohio goes to Bush? wow....
Texas is a loarge state with few Electoral Votes. And since it it Bushhead's state, was never one in question. California was worth more, and went Kerry.


Ohio is being called Bush, but there are lawyers filing lawsuits as we speak.

[AssassinOfLords]

Ohio is being called Bush, Florida is beign called Bush. Texas is of course...being called Bush. I think all these lawyors with their lawsuits is just a bunch of crap. I sat through the 2000 election wondering what would happen if they got one way that said Gore won. I would think that there would be much less controversy, if they just had one system, that they used. The system worked, to the best of any system, and a side could not file lawsuits or recounts. So what if one person punches the wrong card? We are talking about numbers in the 100s of 1000s. Bush would probably do the same thing if he were the loser, but I just find it all crap. Politicians have enough hanging over their head as it is. The government seems more and more corrupt and twistable every day.

[Omega_Paladin]

Ohio is being called Bush, but there are lawyers filing lawsuits as we speak.

Oh dear god...I was hoping we could skip all that this year...and yet...I think we all knew it would get there at some point.

[Kalamady]

Asofnow it is 254 to 252. Bush leading. 3 states still have not been counted up. Keep in mind you only have to get 270 to win. This is too close for comfort.

[Spit_101]

Right now...

George Bush: 254
John Kerry: 252

[Tech_Jester]

Ohio is not officialy Bush yet, but in reality it is. Bush is ahead by something like 130,000 votes, and there are only 140,000 provisional ballots yet to be counted.

Bush is President.

[doubledown]

A) The Lawsuits are necessary. The State of Florida purposfully mailed absentee ballots to primaraly democratic counties late, giving them no chance to file in time. That is major fraud, how would you feel if your local government said everyone can vote but then works with a purpose so that your voice cannot be heard.

B) Badnarik is waaaaaay too conservative for anyone. I agree with some of his stands, especially on being fiscally conservative, but this guy wants to completely alienate the U.S. from any foreign body including NATO and the UN. He also wants to completely close off the border with Mexico. I mean, he's waaaay out there.

[Kalamady]

Woot. Bush for life!

[Twelve]

It's aaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllll over.


12

[S_K_O_F]

A) The Lawsuits are necessary. The State of Florida purposfully mailed absentee ballots to primaraly democratic counties late, giving them no chance to file in time. That is major fraud, how would you feel if your local government said everyone can vote but then works with a purpose so that your voice cannot be heard.

B) Badnarik is waaaaaay too conservative for anyone. I agree with some of his stands, especially on being fiscally conservative, but this guy wants to completely alienate the U.S. from any foreign body including NATO and the UN. He also wants to completely close off the border with Mexico. I mean, he's waaaay out there.

A) saying that Florida intentionally mailed those ballots late is speculation. There is no proof that it was intentional...and besides, they are extending the deadline for these absentee ballots till the Nov 12 anyway. There votes will be counted. And President Bush will still win florida by many thousands of votes.

B)Badnarik is not conservative. He is very, very, VERY Libertarian. He believes that the government should carry very little role in the lives of the people. So yeah...if he doesn't want the people of this country to be told what to do by their government...i highly doubt he would change his standards and want other countries governments telling us what to do.

libertarians are consistently mistaken for conservatives...but conservatives are still trying to pass laws that infringe on the rights of teh people just like liberals...libertarians believe that we (the people) shouldnt be getting handouts from the government. They believe that the governments role is to protect this country and uphold a base set of laws

[AssassinOfLords]

A) The Lawsuits are necessary. The State of Florida purposfully mailed absentee ballots to primaraly democratic counties late, giving them no chance to file in time. That is major fraud, how would you feel if your local government said everyone can vote but then works with a purpose so that your voice cannot be heard.
As SKOF said, there is no proof for this. I get mail that comes late, is this because the company wanted to mail it late, no. The lawsuits are people bitching about the fact that they lost. Bush won with the popular vote this time which is good. I just hope that the 2000 and 2004 elections are not what the rest of the elections are going to be based on. Too much deciept going on here.

[S_K_O_F]

As SKOF said, there is no proof for this. I get mail that comes late, is this because the company wanted to mail it late, no. The lawsuits are people bitching about the fact that they lost. Bush won with the popular vote this time which is good. I just hope that the 2000 and 2004 elections are not what the rest of the elections are going to be based on. Too much deciept going on here.

The funny thing is...some people got there ballots on time and some people didnt

sounds like a mistake and not on purpose to me

and many republicans didnt get their ballots on time also...must have been a conspiracy to suppress there vote too

[FryLock]

I cry bitter tears for America. Yesterday, we showed the rest of the world that we think "moral fiber" and preventing gays and lesbians from marriage is more important than a war drummed up with ficticitious charges, and a leader willing to abridge freedoms at home and abroad. The economy is in the tubes. The debt is something like 4 TRILLION dollars. We and out children will have to pay that. Social security is almost empty. I hope none of us have to work until we're 75 just to make up that deficit.

But we can rest assured that no gays and lesbians will be married any time soon.

Good job, America. We've earned this next 4 years.

Predictions:
-Roe v. Wade overturned, as Bush is in a position to appoint at least 1, possibly 2 new Supreme Court judges.
-a debt that continues to skyrocket
-as much as I hate to say this, another attack on American interests, either at home or abroad. If we act like the bully on the block, "they" will respond in kind
-possibly another war.
-possibly a draft.

It saddens me to see what has happened here. People have tolerated Bush's lies and deception, but they are adamant (at least according to exit polls) that morals are the most important thing.

How ironic. Well rest assured - those "queers" won't be doing anything soon. As for the REAL issues...we've seen how Bush can handle those.

[sOOisiDal]

EVERYBODY SING WITH ME!


"Bush wins! Kerry sucks! lala lala doo dee wah!"


:bang:

[doubledown]

its funny to see that Alaska, a Republican State, went with everyone saying Moral Values are the biggest concern and yet voted to de-criminalize marijuana. Cant you imagine a someone saying "what a good job the country is doing infringing on its gay and lesbian citizens rights...now lets go get high."

[AssassinOfLords]

Kerry concedes. Speech at 1 PM EST. Conratulations to Bush. It is now all over, as Twelve said.

[Northwind]

I cry bitter tears for America.
I hear you Frylock. My only consolation in all of this is to think long-term. I am convinced that Iraq is such a mess that whomever is in charge when it all hits the fan will bear the blame for this. I don't think Kerry could ultimately have done that much to improve that situation (once we threw ourselves into it).

I also think the current trend in policies toward denying personal freedoms, outsourcing jobs, increasing worldwide hatred toward the U.S., cutting taxes on the wealthy, and savaging the environment as a sop to corporate interests will ultimately backfire and the American people will see irrefutable evidence that Bush and his ilk are bad for America and the American way of life. It is my hope that we will then see an uprising against these selfish and isolationist policies and America will join the rest of the world in searching for a government that actually serves its citizens.

Long live America!

[drakonfire]

kerry speach moved to approx 2pm ET


looks like no lawsuits in florida with kerry conceding


oh, btw

-possibly a draft.

been discussed, and isnt gonna happen, first of Americans wont stand for it, we would sooner revolt than be drafted, and second the military shudders at the very idea of a draft, they absolutely hate it

one newsperson went so far as to say "the military will buy all its current enlisted men a farrai before accepting a draft" while i'm sure thats a _slight_ exageration, the point is made

[Utamaro]

Were I coem from most people voted for Kerry. :( But Bush owns. :)

[Jeffery]

Bush is pres. Now the economy can REALLY start sucking. As bad as he did things beofre, he was worried about reelection. Now that he not only doesn;t give a damn about other ountries, but doesn't have to give a damn about being reelected, the country is bound to really go to hell.

[max2k106]

ya know what the democrats said the first time he got elected? "4 years of hell" well they were wrong . . . now its 8 years, and whats this talk of a draft?

[Utamaro]

The draft can't be braughtb ack it's against the constitution and Kerry wanted to bring it back that moron.... I would be a better president then either of them but if not me then I want Bush. :)

[Goldberg]

Bush is pres. Now the economy can REALLY start sucking. As bad as he did things beofre, he was worried about reelection. Now that he not only doesn;t give a damn about other ountries, but doesn't have to give a damn about being reelected, the country is bound to really go to hell.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's amazing how some people can be so blind. One can even go so far as to saying 'gullible'. While I realize that either candidate can be lying - again I would like to stress "can", I would much prefer a different leader than what America has been put through the last four years.

[Aro23r]

Well, I'm happy that when I'm old enough to truly join the workforce, I will be able to keep the money I earn, which is more than be said if the Democrats (Kerry) were in power.

[Jeffery]

The draft can't be braughtb ack it's against the constitution and Kerry wanted to bring it back that moron.... I would be a better president then either of them but if not me then I want Bush. :)
You're a fool to think the draft is against the constitution. Find me ONE place where it says that, and I'll challenge you to actually read the constitution.

And BOTh sides are lying when they say the draft is not being reconsidered. The draft boards HAVE been restaffed. The government HAS been preparing the draft system again.
This is NOT to say they are going to make an involuntary draft, but they sure are preparing to if needed.

[kyrios24]

ugh

[falco88887]

Uto, are you awar of how difficult it is to be president? I highly doubt you would do a decent job. I'm sure there is more to being president than the superficial attributes that they attract people with, i'm not saying they aren't currupted scumbags, just that they are qualified.

[drakonfire]

The draft boards HAVE been restaffed. The government HAS been preparing the draft system again.
This is NOT to say they are going to make an involuntary draft, but they sure are preparing to if needed.


http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp

that offers one potential explanation for the restaffing of the boards, i mean as long as the system is in place they may as well make sure it is capable of serving its function

[KBHoleN1]

To Demon Knight:

Referring to your comments in the third page of this thread ( not going to mention the fact that you triple posted - whoops, too late - LEARN TO EDIT!!!! ), those are some of the most unsustantiated comments I have ever read. Not only do you not know how to spell or edit, you have no facts. While Fahrenheit 9/11 is based on the events surrounding 9/11, that is Michael Moore's opinion of Bush (he hates him if you haven't gathered). The movie is completely one-sided, and just because Michael Moore agrees with you (or vice-versa) doesn't make either one of you right. How did Bush invade Iraq for oil? Have we been secretly stealing oil, shipping it back to the US, and lowering our gasoline prices at the pumps? Oh, no, its just the opposite gasoline prices are over $2 a gallon in most of the US (in case they aren't in Canada). You have every right to dsilike Bush, but at least do it for real reasons - not because of a Democratic movie you watched last month. That is just as bad as hating Jews after watching the Passion - and you'd have to be a dumbass to blame Jews today for Christ's death millenia ago. Read facts, formulate opinions, and substantiate your claims before you go ranting on these forums again. And by the way, I couls swear that the forum asked for no flaming - and calling Bush a scumbag pretty much fits that category. Why not tell us all the things you like about Kerry, not the things you hate about Bush.

Yes, I voted Bush. I disagree with the way we handled Iraq, but agree with the motivations behind the war. If you truly believe that the world would be better off with Saddam Hussein still in power, then I am confused. You can disagree with the things along the path, but you have to appreciate the final goal this country was striving for when we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. And by the way, how do you think Kerry would have handled this situation had he been elected 4 years ago, or Gore for that matter? Would we have sat on our asses after 9/11? And don't say 9/11 is Bush's fault, because the terrorists planned the attacks for years (that was Clinton's term, remember how that went?).

Wow, I had a really bad feeling that I was going to start cussing at the Canadian for being a, ...., urr, ..., umm, ..., uninformed person. See - I still controled myself. I just wish that people would look at the bigger picture sometimes and use facts to support their arguments (Farhenheit 9/11 not being your entire factual basis for voting for Kerry). I'm done now, I think, but I will EDIT my post if I decide to say anything else immmediately following. Take lessons Demon night.

EDIT-check out this link. While this is obviously a Republican clip, it contains facts, quotes and interviews of John Kerry - with undeniable video of Kerry's record on the war and other subjects over the past years. These are the kind of facts I want to see when you argue something.

http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/100904v1-1.wmv

[doubledown]

Ok first off about terrorism, it didnt just spring up in 2001. UBL and terrorist world-wide have been plotting to attack us for decades. It was every administration's job to handle them, so putting any blame on Clinton or Bush is unfair. The blame for 9/11 rightfully fell on the CIA as they had the intelligence but did not disseminate it to the FBI and other organizations.

Secondly, what should be the important issues for the election seems to have been swept aside for minor issues such as "moral values." Am I the only one that noticed that the U.S. went into a recession after the longest period of economic growth right around the time Bush starting implementing his policy? I understand and I'm sure you all as well know the business cycle will fluctuate between booms and busts, but adding a multi-trillion dollar deficit during a recession doesnt sound like a wise policy.

[Utamaro]

Damn you wrote a lot. lol

[S_K_O_F]

The blame for 9/11 rightfully fell on the CIA as they had the intelligence but did not disseminate it to the FBI and other organizations.



i would just like to point out...the blame for 9/11 lies in the hands of those who planned and committed the dasterdly deeds. had the CIA been more alert then perhaps they could have stopped the terrorists

but the CIA did not fly the planes

saying it is the CIA's fault is like saying that it is the fault of the fire department that a building burned to the ground

[Northwind]

Am I the only one that noticed that the U.S. went into a recession after the longest period of economic growth right around the time Bush starting implementing his policy? I understand and I'm sure you all as well know the business cycle will fluctuate between booms and busts, but adding a multi-trillion dollar deficit during a recession doesnt sound like a wise policy.

No you aren't the only one.

However, to address the inevitable point that someone will make saying that it was Clinton's fault that the market dropped, I saw a professor of finance from Yale on CNBC yesterday morning who said that if you look at the data regarding stock returns -- historically, stock returns are far higher (on average) during Democratic administrations than they are (on average) during Republican administrations. It's nice to know that history is repeating itself (wait - that's not nice at all. That sucks. Sorry for the misstatement.).

And SKOF - I totally agree with you about the blame for 911.

[xerent]

Very true.

But... there are different measures of fault. Unfortunately for us, our current situation has so many layers, many of which are intentionally hidden.




It just makes me want to cry.

[Cavour]

Dole for life.

[Jeffery]

Ok first off about terrorism, it didnt just spring up in 2001. UBL and terrorist world-wide have been plotting to attack us for decades. It was every administration's job to handle them, so putting any blame on Clinton or Bush is unfair. The blame for 9/11 rightfully fell on the CIA as they had the intelligence but did not disseminate it to the FBI and other organizations.

Secondly, what should be the important issues for the election seems to have been swept aside for minor issues such as "moral values." Am I the only one that noticed that the U.S. went into a recession after the longest period of economic growth right around the time Bush starting implementing his policy? I understand and I'm sure you all as well know the business cycle will fluctuate between booms and busts, but adding a multi-trillion dollar deficit during a recession doesnt sound like a wise policy.
It was not decades. Bin Laden was trained and funded by the US in the 80's. His hatred of us came about in the 90's, to the extent he declared war on the US in late 90's.

And blaming the CIA IS stupid. There was a failure in an overall intelligence, but it was NOT CIA who flew the planes (as said above)

The economy sucks. Reagonomics, as they are called, has long been a policy of relying on the upperclass to support the lower class, including tax cuts for them, in the hopes they will spend that money on goods and services that the middle class provides.
Unfortunately, with the current global economy, much of the money is spent on goods that are produced in other countries, negating the effect of trickle down economics overall.

[xerent]

This is what I think about the situation.

edit. You.

I didn't ask for this, I didn't want this. I have precious time on this planet, and you decide to ingest it full of your age-old hatreds and prejiduces for god-knows-what-reason that I had nothing to do with.

Screw that. This is my life. I am not bound to resolve your differences, and I will not clean up after your mess when you're through. They hate you, you hate them, and I will be no part of it, and I will not ask my children to be a part of it.

I realize this isn't necessarily logical or selfless, but it's how I feel at the moment, and I wanted to get it out.

[Utamaro]

Well now aren't you surposed to watch your language? lol

[Foundation]

...nvm

[xyxaxyz2]

This election is no surprise; It merely verifies what I've known for a long time about the stupidity of the American electorate and the democratic system in general. Both candidates were total weaklings. 75% of the issues discussed are irrelevant and most of the others remain the same regardless of candidates. The candidate who best convinced voters that he made decisions based on his feelings rather than a rational, intelligent approach was the one who gained 51% of the vote and the white house.

Both candidates disgust me. Pure weaklings who stand for nothing of meaning; nothing great; nothing of value. They look silly; they personify manufactured stupidity designed for mass consumption in the same way any business designs products. Such is the nature of democracy.

JK- I hate him, I hate what he says, how he looks, where he comes from, how he allows himself to be manipulated. He's a pure coward. He doesn't attack Bush on anything of seriousness; he doesn't even put up a fight. And the issues he champions- getting more allies to help us? Why should they pay for our stupidity? What a RIDICULOUS issue! Does he really believe this? That’s the scary thing; It seems he really does believe it. It's not like the average American likes hearing that we need foreigners to cover for our national deficiencies. Why bring this topic up even? Kerry isn't a flip flopper; he's just dull, weak, boring, wimpy, useless, silly, stupid. Totally unpresidential and an embarrassment to the USA.

GB- Even worse. Moral values. What idioticy in this modern world of ours that moral values is all about other people??? How difficult is it for Bush and friends to attack abortion and gays being the heterosexual males that they are? Obviously the three things that define a good Christian in this world 1) hate gays 2) hate abortion 3) believe feelings are a better method of discovering truth than reason. He's a good simple silly stupid Christian just like me so I trust him to have good morals! So disgusting, representing a class of nauseating insect-people infesting and infecting the blood of America. And breeding too, which is even scarier. Bush is another pure weakling, who either has the intellect of an ant or self-abuses himself as such for political gain. Another man completely devoid of presidential qualities; another embarrassment to this sickening country.

Democracy is so asinine! Everyone is worshipping a bunch of near-nonsense! Not only am I better than the entire lot, I know a whole bunch of other people who are as well. I’m so sick of this all!

[Northwind]

This election is no surprise;
Both candidates disgust me.
JK- I hate him,
GB- Even worse.
Democracy is so asinine! Everyone is worshipping a bunch of near-nonsense! Not only am I better than the entire lot, I know a whole bunch of other people who are as well. I’m so sick of this all!

:rolleyes:

[kyrios24]

What the hell northwind? Xyx is right, you know. Completely right. And he said it brilliantly too. Look at that... it's a work of art right there! I am SO glad that he said that. You need to look at it honestly, objectively... look at this whole fucking debacle and realize that this is what happened. You, northy, should also be one of those people he refers to, if I have judged you aright. Or are you?

[Northwind]

Alright Kyrios,

You asked for it, now you are going to get an earful. I responded that way to xyx that way because I was trying to be polite. We have had several interesting discussions and have always kept it civil. However, I have to say that the “brilliant” post you refer to is the stupidest f***ing thing I’ve read in these forums (and that includes H()()t).

Sure, the result sucked. That doesn’t mean that there is no legitimate distinction between the candidates. That doesn’t mean that democracy as a concept is bankrupt. That doesn’t mean that we should throw our hands in the air and call all of them names and pretend to be having an informed political discussion.

To say that Kerry is “dull, weak, boring, wimpy, useless, silly, stupid” is to be grossly misinformed about him. Like him or not (and I see plenty of flaws) he is none of those things in real life. Do you actually think that it is possible to be a successful _anything_ for twenty plus years with all of those qualities. Do you not think that if Kerry were to visit these forums, he would mop the floor with xyx or any of us regarding his level of knowledge and ability regarding the current geopolitical situation. That name-calling simply tells me that xyx, for all of his good qualities, is simply an over-opinionated young smartass with no sense of context or nuance. This, of course, is xyx’s right, but I’m not gonna pretend that this is informed discussion and neither should you.

Xyx, as usual, makes some decent points. However, the value of the overall post was worse than if he had said nothing. We already have too much cynicism, too much negativity, too much “they’re all bums anyway” mentality. I like to think that I am a reasonably informed citizen and am at least smart enough that no one has to remind me to breathe. However, I don’t pretend for a moment that I would be a better president than would Kerry. For xyx to assume this is laughable beyond belief.

Lest you think that I am some Kerry “worshipper,” I have to say that I was much more interested in getting Bush out of office than in getting Kerry in. However, had he gotten in, I think he would have done a decent job.

The majority of my disgust with xyx’s post had to do with his ignorant dismissal of democracy. As Churchill said, “democracy is the worst system of government there is. Except for all the others.” Sure, sometimes things don’t fall your way and you have no clue how that could have happened. However, I defy anyone to think of a more reasonable system of government. Having a government that is beholden to the people is ultimately the only system that is workable in the long term. More cynicism about the process only harms us all and I reject it. Do you have the guts to care about xyx’s “sickening country”?

[GreenS@murai!]

Bush won...nothing left to say or talk about

close this thread please im tired of hearing about politics....why am i looking at this thread then....lol

[kyrios24]

Do you not think that Kerry did an awful job campaigning? An awful job trying to beat Bush? Bush's presidency was a complete disaster. Things are falling apart in Iraq more and more every day. Bush HAD to lie, had to cover up, had to constantly deceive the public. Kerry didn't! By the end, it was probably pretty damn clear to most Americans (stupid though they are) that both candidates were lying their heads off. If Kerry had tried to gain a little trust with the American public, maybe it would've been a question of "who will be better," not "who will be worse." I cannot understand how anybody could possibly have let Bush get away with this! Shouldn't a halfway decent candidate have been able to walk away with this election, hands down? Can't you even muster enough support, expose enough lies, to clobber Bush in the election? Open the eyes of the public to the truth, and don't let them doubt you! Maybe it was more his campaign manager's fault than his. But I mean, come ON...
Xyx also mentioned Kerry's inability to focus on the issues that would've really killed Bush. I definitely noticed that in the debates, and I think it should've been pretty clear to informed viewers that he missed a ton of chances to hit Bush hard. Also, he really isn't such a flip-flopper, if you can see through the Republican attack machine. Problem is, he couldn't stand up for himself, couldn't explain he's been in politics 20 years and people can change, couldn't point out that Bush has flipped incessantly relative to his sojourn in politics or relative to his presidency.
What exactly would you contest about Xyx's Bush comments? So far as I'm concerned, he pretty much hit the nail on the head there. (I do think it's rather funny how there's a semicolon in the middle of his raging Bush tirade, however.) Bible bangers disgust me. Stupid people (H()()T) disgust me. If we weren't surrounded by a bunch of brainwashed manipulatable idiots, then maybe we wouldn't have toppled over the brink yesterday! But we did, and frankly, I think this country is screwed. In fact, I'd say there's a pretty good chance that the entire world is screwed.

By the way... can't you tell that xyx wrote that in like no time at all? Look at the quality of his writing, the clarity of argument. That is VERY powerful, especially considering. Also, you would probably hold it in higher regard if you agreed with his sentiments. It seems that you don't. I, however, do, and that appears to make the difference here. Try to understand. Ugh. America.

[Tech_Jester]

By the way... can't you tell that xyx wrote that in like no time at all? Look at the quality of his writing, the clarity of argument. That is VERY powerful, especially considering. Also, you would probably hold it in higher regard if you agreed with his sentiments. It seems that you don't. I, however, do, and that appears to make the difference here. Try to understand. Ugh. America.

Someone is impressed by big words :rolleyes:

[kyrios24]

Someone is impressed by big words :rolleyes:
No. But that selfsame someone does actually use big words ALL the time in his writing. Nevertheless, I was very impressed by that post. Agreement or disagreement with the actual content of the post aside, don't you think he expresses his ideas very well? Man... why am I even going into all this?

[drakonfire]

Obviously the three things that define a good Christian in this world 1) hate gays 2) hate abortion 3) believe feelings are a better method of discovering truth than reason. He's a good simple silly stupid Christian just like me so I trust him to have good morals! So disgusting, representing a class of nauseating insect-people infesting and infecting the blood of America. And breeding too, which is even scarier


*restrains self*
i will kindly ask you, in the future xy, to refrain from making blanket statements based on the louder, mostly hypocritical section of a populace, thank you

[xyxaxyz2]

They are a very significant portion of the American populace and they gave Bush the election. I'm not going to be quiet about them despite the fact that some people I otherwise respect belong to that group.

And Northwind, I can assure you; my comprehension of this world is vastly superior to John Kerry's.

[drakonfire]

They are a very significant portion of the American populace and they gave Bush the election. I'm not going to be quiet about them despite the fact that some people I otherwise respect belong to that group


then think of it as we chose the (in our minds) lesser of 2 evils

just, please dont ever make a comment like that again

[xyxaxyz2]

No, I will make comments like that whenever I see it fit and beneficial. There are segments of our population who are seriously harming our country and one of those are the "moral values" Christians. They are a significant danger and I will fight against their destructive power over our society as long as it exists.

[drakonfire]

okay, so now your denying the fact that moral issues are important? or just the extremist versions who "hate" abortion and such... how is being moral destroying our society? isnt moral itself kinda vague? everyone has "morals" some you might consider bad, some you might consider good, what kind of morals are we discussing?


and i somehow doubt that comment was beneficial in any way shape or form, about the only thing it accomplished for me was to make me angry and completely disregard any validity your post had

[xerent]

Moral values are fine. As long as you don't force them on other people.

[drakonfire]

Moral values are fine. As long as you don't force them on other people.


much as i sometimes might hate this, i do agree

btw, i think all the gay marriage bans will be overturned by the supreme court due to unconstitutionality (is that a word?) sometime in the (relatively) near future

[xyxaxyz2]

Well, I'm tired of relativist "tolerance." It hasn't gotten us anywhere. The conservative Christians obviously have much more power than the "tolerant" liberal relativist pseudo-intellectual Northwind-types, last night demonstrated that. The only way to defuse Christian control and stunt Christian growth is with forcefullness from the other side; from the truth-believing rationalists who actually want what's best for our country based on intelligence, well thought out ideas, reason rather than invisible forces existing inside the realm of primordial emotions.

I'm not saying "morals" are bad; I'm saying Christian morality is bad. It's eating away at our cultural fiber; slowly chipping away at that thin bar of rational truth belief which relativism is biting into from the other side. Rational morality is true morality; rational morality is good morality; any other pretense of morality is fallacious and deleterious. And I will fight against such insidious destruction whenever I can, and with force. I'm tired of wimpy tolerance.

[drakonfire]

well at least we agree on the relativist "tolerance"

however disregarding the infringement of rights garanteed by our consitution of abortion and gay marriange (not strcitly speaking, but implied of course) what is "christian morality" eating away at?

[xyxaxyz2]

Rational truth belief.

[drakonfire]

Rational truth belief.

very descriptive xy... care to extrapolate?

[xyxaxyz2]

Well, I wrote some 40,000 chars about it in the other thread with Northwind. :)

Simplistically, our country would be better off if every decision was made by reason rather than emotion. Anything which causes decay of rational truth belief lessens the amount of decisions made through reason; decreasing general happiness.

[drakonfire]

Well, I wrote some 40,000 chars about it in the other thread with Northwind. :)

other thread? *blinks* where be that?

okay, granted, our country would be TONS better if reason was king, and her is where i have a problem, true christianity believes in reason! Christ himself used reason against the pharisees, when they asked him about healing on the sabbath (which through years of implied tradition they had made 'illegal') and he told them that if they had a sheep that fell in a ditch, they would get it out, wouldnt they? so how much more valuable is a man than a sheep?

okay, that was kinda a tangent, what i'm trying to get at here is the "christian morals" you are referring to, i believe are the extremist, loud, and as i said before, hypocritical groups, in short, the pharisees and teachers of the law, of today

make no mistake i dont like abortion, or gay marriages, but according to our constitution we cant ban those rights, so until a county is made where the law says otherwise, i aint gonna scream about those


EDIT: i just realized how badly a mistatement i could possibly have made, True christianity is all about faith in Christ, and God, but reason must be used in it, you cannot blindly follow everything you pastor tells you

[xyxaxyz2]

True christianity is all about faith

As I said, eating away at rational truth belief.

[drakonfire]

As I said, eating away at rational truth belief.


*sigh* i think its safe to say at this point that we can just agree to disagree eh? anywhat, just turned morning here, i need to get to bed

[xerent]

Well, I'm tired of relativist "tolerance." It hasn't gotten us anywhere. The conservative Christians obviously have much more power than the "tolerant" liberal relativist pseudo-intellectual Northwind-types, last night demonstrated that. The only way to defuse Christian control and stunt Christian growth is with forcefullness from the other side; from the truth-believing rationalists who actually want what's best for our country based on intelligence, well thought out ideas, reason rather than invisible forces existing inside the realm of primordial emotions.

I'm not saying "morals" are bad; I'm saying Christian morality is bad. It's eating away at our cultural fiber; slowly chipping away at that thin bar of rational truth belief which relativism is biting into from the other side. Rational morality is true morality; rational morality is good morality; any other pretense of morality is fallacious and deleterious. And I will fight against such insidious destruction whenever I can, and with force. I'm tired of wimpy tolerance.

It goes a bit deeper than this, but you're on the right track.

In either case, there isn't much you can do about this... This is the sort of thing that people want. It was more or less proved earlier on. You just can't combat that type of force... you have to let it destroy itself. It was doomed to do so long ago.

[Twelve]

And I will fight against such insidious destruction whenever I can, and with force.


Bring it.

12

[Duffman]

Exit polls:
Most important quality:
Religious belief (8%) Bush - 91% Kerry - 8%
Intelligence (7%) Bush - 9% Kerry - 91%

BAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!

[kensai]

Oh well. Every nation gets the kind of leader they deserve. :-)

[Duffman]

Oh well. Every nation gets the kind of leader they deserve. :-)
BLAM! :)

And how true.

[_B0b_]

What I really dont understanfd is the American voting system.
How does it work? I see that all of the states are worth a different amount of 'points'. Your election is like a game? So if I bribe this state...and tax that one...make these laws here...
I guess that the point value is determined by the population, or are they preset? Rigged in any way eh?

This is you biggest turnout in history, the grand election, and only just over half of your voting population votes. Thats a democracy? You only need less than a third of the population to vote you in as president, and you win.

But although I would hate it to be true, kensai seems to be right. You get the leader you deserve.

[xyxaxyz2]

In either case, there isn't much you can do about this... This is the sort of thing that people want. It was more or less proved earlier on. You just can't combat that type of force... you have to let it destroy itself. It was doomed to do so long ago.

I can't accept that recidivist viewpoint. Both Christianity and intellectual relativism are growing, not weakening, in power and population-thats why we have this return to conservativism in this country.

I believe that if rational truth belief is presented forcfully and powerfully; it will win out- perhaps not with the deluded masses, but those aren't the people in power anyways and they never will be. We just need strength! We can't accept "tolerance" castration; we have to fight with and for the truth and never back up, apoligize, coat up, ignore, understate, or euphamize. We've got to tell things as they are! The brutal offensive mean cruel cold TRUTH!

[xyxaxyz2]

Bring it.

12

Any time. And of course, I mean intellectual force. We can't win this any other way until we've got enough people on our side.

[Twelve]

Any time. And of course, I mean intellectual force. We can't win this any other way until we've got enough people on our side.

Hmmm...

Well, fact is, whenever you manage to get this "force" together(you're starting to sound like Karl Marx here, bro, watch out), I would probably be one of the guys on the opposing side, especially if you view Christian morality as "destructive".

*shrugs*

Well, there always has to be some battle to fight. Keeps us busy.

12

[abyaly]

Man, I was so certian Van Auken would win -.-

[thewiz]

Why is nadar not up there !!! :mad:

I would vote for him :cool:

[xerent]

I can't accept that recidivist viewpoint. Both Christianity and intellectual relativism are growing, not weakening, in power and population-thats why we have this return to conservativism in this country.

I believe that if rational truth belief is presented forcfully and powerfully; it will win out- perhaps not with the deluded masses, but those aren't the people in power anyways and they never will be. We just need strength! We can't accept "tolerance" castration; we have to fight with and for the truth and never back up, apoligize, coat up, ignore, understate, or euphamize. We've got to tell things as they are! The brutal offensive mean cruel cold TRUTH!

Sure, hey... sounds great! Just one question.

What exactly are you planning to do about it?

[nooki]

i think bush had his time is time for new president :rolleyes:

[drakonfire]

What I really dont understanfd is the American voting system.
How does it work? I see that all of the states are worth a different amount of 'points'. Your election is like a game? So if I bribe this state...and tax that one...make these laws here...
I guess that the point value is determined by the population, or are they preset? Rigged in any way eh?

This is you biggest turnout in history, the grand election, and only just over half of your voting population votes. Thats a democracy? You only need less than a third of the population to vote you in as president, and you win.

But although I would hate it to be true, kensai seems to be right. You get the leader you deserve.


_B0b_: each of our states is worth a certain amount of Electoral Votes (the points you were referring too) the amount is determined by the number of representatives we have in the house and senate + 1 (i think)... now then once a candidate has won the popular vote in a state, all of its electors cast their votes for him (usually, this didnt happen in nebraska and one other state this time)... now total we have 538 electoral votes, so a candidate needs 270 to win, even if the majority of americans didnt vote for him, if he gets 270, he wins, as happened last election (gore had the pop vote, bush had the electoral votes)... so yeah, that was all clear as mud, our election system is pretty screwy, but its what we're stuck with until we can get enough ppl educated to change it, because constitutional amendments (which is what it would take to change it) are extremely difficult to make

and we cant force everyone whos eligeable to vote, so if only 50% of eligeable voters turnout, then they are all that matters, because they cared enough to vote


oh, and 12, i'm right there with you

[Ignition]

In my opinon this is realy shuldn't be just up to the US. whatever they voat will affict the world, well only if they vote bush that is. The rest of the world should have a say as well... except Iraqi they would most deffinitly not voat for bush.
but hay what wold i know i'm jsut Canadian

[Northwind]

Ugh, I can’t believe I’m even bothering. However, I previously saw some potential in xyx and want to honor that, even though I’m not feeling it right now.

X - Your belief in “absolute truth” seems to make you good at exactly one thing: Name-calling


Kerry isn't a flip flopper; he's just dull, weak, boring, wimpy, useless, silly, stupid.

Bush is another pure weakling

representing a class of nauseating insect-people infesting and infecting the blood of America.

“tolerant" liberal relativist pseudo-intellectual Northwind-types

the deluded masses

And you have the audacity to assume that this name-calling is somehow “beneficial.” To which I say – join the real world. I will suggest to your hatred simply causes people to tune you out and moves you further from your goal of convincing them. I know your accusations that I am a “pseudo-intellectual” simply annoys the crap out of me and makes me much less likely to consider what you say. Congratulations! If you were really interested in convincing others of the superiority of your position, you would do it in a way that they could hear. Your unwillingness to do this reveals everything about your true motives.

By the way, the hubris for a 16 year-old to think that his “comprehension of this world is vastly superior to John Kerry's” really does make me laugh out loud and reveals you as someone who is all surface and no depth. The reason I even bother with you is that I think that you are capable of depth – but I’m getting suspicious of this perception on my part.

Ultimately, the difference between us is that I don’t pretend to know what I don’t, while you don’t seem to let this get in your way.

To Kyrios,

It was never my intention of defending Kerry’s campaign style. My larger point was that I will not give up on America or democracy simply because I don’t agree with the result. I will repeat my previous point. Do you have the guts to care about this country (warts and all)?

Obviously, we are both pissed off right now about the results of the election and, in part, are taking it out on each other. Let’s not do this anymore

[xerent]

arack

You, my friend, have made my day.

[theburning]

You, my friend, have made my day.

You know what made my day?

[xerent]

ummm... chocolate?

[Jeffery]

Pasta and ice cream?

[theburning]

All of the above !!!!!!

But something else too.

[xerent]

Praytell what would that be?

[Ignition]

You, my friend, have made my day.
well i fixed that (warning cant spell) lmao.
and what he ment by above i think he ment below

[Jeffery]

Well, there are 2 ways to burn off that many carbs.........

[Cavour]

Man, I was so certian Van Auken would win -.-
You... you mean he didn't??

[Lord Shinok]

Damn, the poll stated that Bush and Kerry are tied.

[kyrios24]

Obviously, we are both pissed off right now about the results of the election and, in part, are taking it out on each other. Let’s not do this anymore
Meh. I was thinking the same thing myself.

I would love to say that I still care about this country. Maybe I do, or maybe I will after I cool down about the election. But I am not optomistic about its future, or the future of the world. I would not be very surprised if people end up looking back on this... thing (if there are still people to look back on it) and labeling it as one of the great mistakes of history.

[Utamaro]

Well the election is over so this thread is pointless now. :)

[Cavour]

Yeah, and way to post on it anyway. ;)

p.s. Love you.

[S_K_O_F]

Meh. I was thinking the same thing myself.

I would love to say that I still care about this country. Maybe I do, or maybe I will after I cool down about the election. But I am not optomistic about its future, or the future of the world. I would not be very surprised if people end up looking back on this... thing (if there are still people to look back on it) and labeling it as one of the great mistakes of history.

and there is every bit a possibility that people will look back on this and think quite the opposite.

guys...i understand it is your freedom to bitch...i will not ask you not to do so
but also...now we have Bush for 4 more years...and since we are "stuck" with him this might be a good time to quit being so cynical. I understand that you hate Bush. But now that he is the President until the beginning of 2009, it might be a good idea to look optimistically towards the future
the last thing our country needs is for us to stay divided. The terrorists are succeeding in their war against us...not becuase we dont have the military strength...not because we dont have the money
but because as Americans, we are refusing to look past our differences with each other and we are constantly alienating each other

so 48% of the nation doesn't believe Bush should be president...but he is...all of this bickering will do nothing but continue to divide this nation and weaken it.

im not saying that you have to jump on board and change your views...but at least give our nation a chance to bounce back
9/11 did a number on this nation...and we are still struggling to recover from it

[Jeffery]

I figure Bush must have done something right. 51% didn't want him president last time. He convinced 3% more that he was ok.

But there is one way to make it all go away.......

[bludhoundz]

Jeff, where's the bomb?

[xyxaxyz2]

Sure, hey... sounds great! Just one question.

What exactly are you planning to do about it?

Me personally? There's not much I can do about it right now at age 16 with 0 funds and lots of other responsibilities. Except write about it occasionally, which I am already doing. And I'm sort of lazy and hypocritical. But you can't confuse the message with the messenger. I'm also correct. And if someone doesn't do it, someone doesn't start it, the United States is going to continue in the self-destructive direction it is going.

[Northwind]

Me personally? There's not much I can do about it right now at age 16 with 0 funds and lots of other responsibilities. Except write about it occasionally, which I am already doing. And I'm sort of lazy and hypocritical. But you can't confuse the message with the messenger. I'm also correct. And if someone doesn't do it, someone doesn't start it, the United States is going to continue in the self-destructive direction it is going.
Wow,

What a refreshingly human response from you x! Now I'm listening! :)

And SKOF -- I think those are wise words. I do want to clarify that the Presdent should be willing to share some blame in this division as he has spent the last four years misrepresenting, denigrating, and attempting to trample the views of people like me. I think that liberals will be willing to engage in dialogue with conservatives if conservatives show some concern about liberals and don't excoriate their beliefs as unpatriotic (as has been happening). I think there is plenty of room for compromise as long as both sides of the aisle are willing to do so.

I have to admit to being discouraged when I heard Bush talk about hoping that the Democrats would "support" him without any mention of him supporting the Democrats. Since we are all in this together, support has to go both ways.

[xyxaxyz2]

Northwind:

I know you do not like my insults, but their only purpose is to reveal people and ideas in a true light. The fact is; there are groups of people who pose serious danger to this country and they will not be stopped by people who refuse to even accept who they are. Nevertheless...If my insults are deterring you from my true message, I can abstain from them for a couple of minutes.

You know as well as I do that Bush's win can be attributed to the fact that many millions of Americans believe he shares their "values" more than does Kerry. I would ask you and all liberal intellectuals (and I'm using the word "intellectual" very broadly here) - how do you combat these people who vote based on an abstract concept with no definite meaning, who cannot be swayed by facts or reason or even religious/moral arguments of any complexity. These people who vote for Bush because they feel that Bush feels in the same way that they feel about "family" "morals" "values" "God;" who vote for Bush because his message is simple enough for them to, if not understand, at least grasp that he feels like they do.

Option 1: You can try to get the opposition candidate to give the same message. Kerry tried to do this, very unsuccessfully. He seemed to be doing it solely for it's own sake, solely for the political benefit, and this was seen by the "morals" voter. The fact is, few intellectual will feel comfortable expressing "values"; they are too mired in their reason belief to do so.

Option 2: You can try to convince the "values" voters to become reason voters: I simply don't see this happening. Culture and cultural beliefs work in strange ways; I'm not sure that you can create such a huge cultural change in this society at this time.

Option 3: You can circumvent the "values" voters completely by subverting the American democracy.

Of course, this goes far beyond one simple election- Clinton won two terms against worse opponents in a "values" dominated country, and a better candidate than Kerry could have done the same in this election. This also goes beyond the current cultural conflict between relativism, rationalism, and "faith." It goes to the very heart of the problem- the problem of democracy.

The truth is, democracy is no less an arbitrary means of determining government than monarchy. The ability to attract the masses to your person is no more reflective of your ability to lead than is your hereditary connection to the previous ruler. In many ways, it is less- those most desiring of power are often the most likely to corrupt it; the most efficient at using it poorly. Bush won by democratic government; so did Hitler.

I am in favor of unarbitrary government- a government who's purpose is not to represent what the people want, but to give the people what the people need- meritocracy. Government ruled by those who deserve to rule. Government ruled by reason.

I know this runs directly against what the average relativist intellectual believes in! You believe in Freedom, Individualism, Expression. And obviously anything but democracy runs counter to this---

Except it doesn't.

Democracy is not freedom- freedom is individual. I do not personally choose who I want to rule me; If I’m in the 48 percent rather than the 51, I have no power over my government. Democracy is the arbitrary rule of the majority over the whole; democracy is anti-freedom and anti-individualism. You know very well that democracy often votes in favor of ending freedom; the American democracy upheld slavery for almost a century and segregation for just as long. Clearly, democracy is not synonymous with freedom.

A rational, professional meritocracy can uphold freedom better than a masses-run democracy can because the former understands what freedom actually is and therefore desires to protect it. Rationalists do not let themselves be affected by the emotional appeal of "values" talk- in fact, it runs entirely counter to their worldview. Rationalists will not create a Patriot act. Rationalists will not invade random countries for fear of "terrorism." Rationalists will not write homophobia into the constitution. Rationalists will not support an ideological-based tax code.

Can you not see? What is wrong with what I am saying? Tell me how your democracy is better than my meritocracy, how America now is better than how America could be; How America could be if we merely abandoned our obsessive and irrational support for tolerance and equal representation. Why should you consent be governed by the person who is only in office from the support of people who don't have nearly the understanding of the world as you do? Look with an open mind; look from the pure reason I know is contained inside of you, rather than your emotional beliefs tainted by our well-meaning but debilitating faith in The Democratic System. Look carefully, look clearly, at America now and at what I am saying, and I think you might possibly find what I have found, because I know you are as intelligent as I am.

[DuBious]

The only protest I have is that Democracy is supposed to be a meritocracy. The very foundation of Democracy depends on the voter being well informed and reasonable. The reason I believe that you may see Democracy as failing is simply because your countrymen do not vote with their heads, but their heart.

I'm not going to bother getting into the media wars... but one could say that they are partly to blame for uninformed voters, due to their penchant for going for a "big story". Rather than get at the truth, they slant it.

The other problem is the aforementioned "head vs. heart" problem. Unfortunately, those who vote with one will rarely see eye to eye with the other. Thus, those who voted with their heart this past election, be they Democrats or Republicans, believe that at least Democracy was served.

[Northwind]

x,

First, THANK YOU for laying off of the insults. I can't tell you how much easier it was to listen to what you had to say this time. Effective communication depends on effective rhetoric. Insults don’t actually “reveal people and ideas in a true light”, they simply close down people’s willingness to consider alternate viewpoints.

Speaking of alternate viewpoints, I agree with much of what you said in this most recent post. However, your big revelation is that a meritocracy would be a superior form of government? Jesus, x! Give me a little credit! I never claimed to be a rocket surgeon :) but OBVIOUSLY a true meritocracy would be the best system.

The only problem is HOW to establish this meritocracy. I agree with Dub here, democracy is meant to be a meritocracy and is the closest thing we got. How else should we choose who is meritorious? And who should choose the choosers? It is these important details that quickly destroy the idea of a “pure” meritocracy.

Democracy, for all its flaws, is the only system in which the governed truly have a say in the government. (And, contrary to your point, the Bill of Rights specifically protects the rights of the minority to do a variety of important things (free speech, etc.), even if this is unpopular with the majority). I don’t know about you, but I want to live under a system where, if a particular leader or set of leaders f*** things up enough, the people can vote for a new set of leaders. (Incidentally, I think we will see a drastic version of this in four years.) In a democracy, the people ultimately have some (admittedly limited) power over their system of government.

What would stop your meritocracy from spinning out of control? As you say, the people who want to lead are often the last ones you want leading you. How does this basic fact of human nature change under a meritocracy? My answer – it doesn’t. We would soon have many of the same problems we have no, but no way to fix it. This is not my idea of utopia.

Anyway, thanks again for being civil. [British accent]It is ever so much more pleasant.[/British accent]. (sorry Bottle)

And with that, I’m out of here for a weekend of climbing. (Us “pseudo-intellectuals” have got to get out of our heads somehow. ;) ) Peace out ya’ll.

[xyxaxyz2]

Most Americans do not believe in meritocracy. Meritocracy is inherently elitist, and it goes against ideals of individual rights to representation. If a good amount of intelligent Americans were meritocrats, we would have anti-vote movements rather than pro-vote ones, encouraging only intelligent people to vote rather than setting up voting as the primary duty of an American patriot. I am happy to know though that you do not fall in that category :) It will make this post a bunch shorter.

You say the bill of rights protects the minorities; the democracy can however overrule (practically) the bill of rights through presidential supreme court appointments approved by democratically elected congress. There are many times in US history where the bill of rights was disregarded, from Alien and Sedition to Patriot.

Democracy’s record is no better than any other form of government with the exception of communist China and USSR. It’s not close to meritocracy in the least. I think once meritocracy is accepted as the ideal rather than a utopian impossibility; democracy falls by itself---democracy is arbitrary government; there is no reason to believe it is better than some other random arbitrary government. Despite any Churchill quotes to the contrary, there are better systems out there; systems which make rational sense and work with intelligent efficiency. I would propose what is below as an example of such a system.

Pure meritocracy is possible for those who follow the precepts of reason. We select people based on set standards; their reasoning ability, comprehension of the world, governing ability, ability to resist corruption, etc. We have rigorous standards and no tolerance for long term failure. It works for most professions; why can’t it work for politics as well? Medical doctors for example. To become a doctor you don’t get elected by random people who have no comprehension of the practice. You have to go through the process. You have to show you are able to be a doctor; you’ve got to train well; you’ve got to know what you’re doing; you can’t make too many mistakes. There’s no reason there should be any difference with political positions.

I call it “professional government”- government by the professional, educated, trained, tested political elite.

Corruption? Of course there will be some. But it will be minimized if the people setting up the government are of the right mindset. Our democracy now is run heavily on 1)money and 2)power. Both of these forces breed corruption. The professional meritocrat cannot accept any more money than his moderate salary. And there is no power-feeling present---no one is lobbying for him to make decisions in a certain way (and if they are, there is greater pressure from his rationalist peers to make decisions based on reason.). There is a very deep feeling we try to impart on these professional meritocrats, and those who don’t feel it enough can’t be accepted into the system---feeling of personal irrelevance. You are here merely because you happen to be one of the most skilled people for the job. Your skill is not a reflection of your superiority over other people; your abilities simply match up with the profession of politics in the same way some people’s abilities set them up to be scientists.

No checks in balances? Well, that’s true. There aren’t really outside checks and balances upon other professional organizations either. Medical doctors don’t want to let in inferior people into their profession, and neither will the first generation of meritocrats. Provided these original meritocrats know what they are doing, the meritocratic system itself will serve as the checks and balances.

With meritocratic selection, professional loyalty, belief in the system, and pressure from the other members, the drive to rule rationally will ideally be irresistibly strong. This is not a perfect system. There are many holes. But what it has that democracy lacks is selective rather than arbitrary government. And this difference is huge.

[Utamaro]

You own man. :)

[xyxaxyz2]

Agreed. :)