Lets fix the Ambusher

[Elendil]

from experience, and many will agree, the golem ambusher is too powerful, especially with two scouts in conjunction.i think a way to fix this would be to reduce the busher's range to 5 and 4, or make it only available with one scout on the field. im sure people will disagree, but as an all-around player (mostly turtle) and someone with lots of tactics experience under my belt, i would say this unit is overpowered in rushes... perhaps with only 5 range it wont be so ridiculously easy to kill clerics.
thanks billmasta
E

[Scroll Lock]

Have u used it? it sucks... u must be talking about using it when your invincible... right? wurd.

[Jeffery]

THAT is why there are not 2 scouts on Legends. That WAS the fix to keep the game balanced. I could see only 1 scout when using the ambusher here though.

Either way, the whiners here will cry if any change is made to keep the game balanced.

[Scroll Lock]

Dude, its mad easy to kill, just don't talk you 2.

[Jeffery]

I see one of the whiners has arrived. Not bothering to read his posts, I bet he is bitching about their even being a discussion here about this.

[WaCk-HeAd]

Have u used it? it sucks... u must be talking about using it when your invincible... right? wurd.

Dumb ass. Try placing it on the front row, then try to kill a cleric. I think even you must be able to kill that certain cleric.

For me it's simple. I ask a simple question before the match. "You want any rules?". They say no, I'll use an ambusher on the front row, and use a rush.
If they want only turtles, I say "fine, but without the ambusher then."

Personally I really hate the ambusher.

[Bottle]

I think most good players don't like the ambusher, because it adds to the randomness element of the game.

[Scroll Lock]

DUMBASS? STFU, i've used it, it sucks. Its been used against me to attempt to kill my cleric... LW + Dragon + One Archer killed it before it had time to kill it. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU GUYS JUST SUCK!

[WaCk-HeAd]

DUMBASS? STFU, i've used it, it sucks. Its been used against me to attempt to kill my cleric... LW + Dragon + One Archer killed it before it had time to kill it. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU GUYS JUST SUCK!

Bottle,Jeffrey,Elendil and I suck? And you rock?

I think it's save to say "I rest my case".

[Leigh]

DUMBASS? STFU, i've used it, it sucks. Its been used against me to attempt to kill my cleric... LW + Dragon + One Archer killed it before it had time to kill it. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU GUYS JUST SUCK!

Back to the good ole' Eric we all know and love... :rolleyes:

[Bottle]

DUMBASS? STFU, i've used it, it sucks. Its been used against me to attempt to kill my cleric... LW + Dragon + One Archer killed it before it had time to kill it. I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU GUYS JUST SUCK!

And while you were doing this, didn't your opponent try to shoot or mudquake your cleric? I'm surprised. I certainly would.

Dumbass.

[Elendil]

Bottle just nailed it on the head. the ambusher isnt good alone trying to snipe a cleric in front of an lw... but ifyoure a good rusher you will go in with mud and make your scouts a threat so that if you try to kill the ambusher, your cleric is screwed anyway. i thikn a change needs to be made. ive been with this game for many monthes now, and i know that the unit is in fact over powered. i think even changing the range to 5 would help, becuase then it could not reach over lightning wards.
E

[Bottle]

It still could, actually. Only range of 4 would prevent that, and then it would be completely useless.

The unit is not overpowered. It's just far too much in favour of only one type of formation.

On the plus side, when people stop using turtles, it will not be used any more. Then we can sneak a turtle back in. :)

[_B0b_]

It still works, in conjunction with a barrier ward (which I use now after losing too many clerics to that damn ambusher). Attack, barrier, if your barrier gets hit paralyze whatever hit it, next turn kill the cleric, or heal, then kill the cleric. Pretty much if your opponent doesnt use a barrier ward, he has lost his cleric. In a turtle, this means almost certain death.

[Thargor]

rushes use clerics. So the tosser will still be usefull with no one turtling.

[Bottle]

But the clerics aren't usually as important, or indeed always in a corner or at the centre. You can't be as sure of where the cleric is, and so you can't place your ambusher specifically to get it, and so it becomes prey for knights, dragon and scouts.

Bob, you have just summed up why the turtle is now obsolete without a BW. And with a BW, it usually loses anyway.

[_B0b_]

But he would probably die VERY quickly against a rush or bomb. He does not have that much health after all. There it all depends on who gets frist turn. And against a rush, if you are going to use two turns to kill a cleric, a bomb would take out a lot, and a strong rush would be in a very offensive position, ready to take out probably your cleric. Rushes and bombs usually work fine without clerics anyways.


EDIT: Bottle posted about the same time as me...I may be just restating what he said...

[Bottle]

My point is that in a rush, it's easy to kill the cleric anyway, even without an ambusher. Nor is the cleric needed as much, except perhaps in the endgame or to give your dragon one last attack before it dies.

[Kyir]

i like the random element of the game, other wise i couldent blame losses on it :)

[Bottle]

Yeah, too many people do that. *OMG my scout only blocked 6/7 from the front! I lost because of that!*

[Kyir]

ive lost from many a front block

[Bottle]

My point exactly. You can't expect a scout to block all the time from the front. It's the same chance as a knight has of missing a side block, and we don't complain about those much, do we?

[T3km4n]

When a Hank attacks my cleric, he just sticks up his hand and breaks the rock in half...

[Scroll Lock]

And while you were doing this, didn't your opponent try to shoot or mudquake your cleric? I'm surprised. I certainly would.

Dumbass.


Thats why you need to able to adapt, unless the muddy is on the front line it can't do that quick enough, cause of healing, in the mean time you got 2 units dead quick. With a half-dead cleric... If they were both on the front line, its a rush and its unhonorable.

[Megabyte]

GA IS a bit overpowered..but I think its mostly that way because we're not adapted to playing it enough yet.

The best setups I've seen with the GA are cleric-less ones that are almost like a rush with the units concentrated to the front. It just doesn't move like a rush.

[Office_Shredder]

Thats why you need to able to adapt, unless the muddy is on the front line it can't do that quick enough, cause of healing, in the mean time you got 2 units dead quick. With a half-dead cleric... If they were both on the front line, its a rush and its unhonorable.

Wait.... so now rushing is unhonorable? Yet you support the idea of needing to adapt? Make up your mind man

[Scroll Lock]

That made no sence, rushing is unhonorable, but needing to adapt isn't.

Turtles can have a ambusher on the first line and still be honorable.

[Office_Shredder]

This just cracks me up.... so turtles are allowed to line units up on the front line, hoping to get a fast cleric kill, but rushes aren't?

[Scroll Lock]

A cleric isn't allowed to have magic units on the first two lines, thats correct buddy.

[Scroll Lock]

Also, it had to be in one corner, and the rest is obvious... No more then one unit on the front line...

[Jeffery]

I would much rather certain parties not grey jump long before they start saying rushing is unhonorable.

[Scroll Lock]

Why don't you just come out and say "Scroll Lock, you jump greys." Do you have any balls at all? For the record, i don't jump shit, all my battles are prearanged or camped.

[WaCk-HeAd]

Oh my god, Ever heared of a corner turtle?

Next. When you're focussing to kill that ambusher, which you will need every turn for to do it, your cleric will be dead, unless you're facing complete and utter newbies, which you probably are, looking at your posts.

Plus, the Ambusher is too good for a certain setup, like Bottle explained, namely Rushing. The ambusher is NOT overpowered, It just works too good for 1 setup.
Jezus F*cking Christ dude.

[Scroll Lock]

I already said how to kill it, it does take some sacrifice but what doesn't... Dude, just don't talk, i'll own you.

[Office_Shredder]

Scroll Lock, I love the way you have a clear cut set of rules of what is and isn't allowed in a turtle... by your definition, my two frosty turtle isn't a turtle (weird, isn't it? For the fact that it has four attacking units...) but some sort of odd pseudo rush.

Maybe you people should try using two clerics if you love them so much... I just skip the cleric entirely and laugh ;)

[Scroll Lock]

The rules for the turtle are commenly know...

Two frosty turtle, applies to legends as far as i know, and i don't give a damn about it.

[Office_Shredder]

Actually, you can have two frosties on revelation.

And I never knew those rules for turtles...so clearly they aren't commonly known enough. Besides, it sounds like they were created to stifle creativity IMO

[WaCk-HeAd]

as far as i know

Well, that knowledge doesn't travel very far. What about Rev, Scroll Lock? Nobody has 2 frosts in Rev?

Dude,

You Suck.

[Scroll Lock]

They were created to have a clear cut measure of skill.

First move(random), a DSM and a Lightning Ward sit at the front, If the DSM gets first turn, cleric dies. If the lightning ward gets first turn, DSM dies. Tell me thats a fair thing? Its not, its luck.

[Office_Shredder]

Unless the LW is in front of the cleric.... then the best the DMW player can do is walk away.

But wait... it takes skill to think of something like that

[Scroll Lock]

If its directly infront, witch it most likely never will be cause of considerable strategy and commen sence behind it being one spot away from the wall, while the lw shouldn't be.

[Jeffery]

If its directly infront, witch it most likely never will be cause of considerable strategy and commen sence behind it being one spot away from the wall, while the lw shouldn't be.

Except that a corner cleric can;t be hit by a DMW that is one space off the wall when the LW is dead in front of the cleric. Common sense tells you that.

[Office_Shredder]

So common sense dictates that you should leave your cleric open to DMW attacks because you don't want to spend the time defending against it. I thought you said you liked adapting?

[Scroll Lock]

You can't help it with most turtles, unless something is infront of ur cleric 4 spaces, and one toward the wall.

Also, buddy, the dsm can kill the cleric first move next to the lw...

[Office_Shredder]

I know the DSM can kill the cleric first turn by moving next to the LW... so put something next to the LW also. I mean, you have ten units to work with, only 7 at most get sunk into the actual stonie formation and cleric

What does this have to do with turtle rules again?

[WaCk-HeAd]

Scroll Lock.

Stop making up different strategies to kill a cleric. We all know them, and we all know how to counter them. The Ambusher on the other hand gives a great advantage to those "early cleric killing moves".

Look, first I hit your cleric with my ambusher, then you will have to focus your entire firepower to kill the ambusher to stop it from killing your cleric, meaning at least 3 turns, That gives me the oppurtunity to kill your cleric with a scout or a muddy, or AT THE VERY LEAST gives me the advantage I need to win.

I know this is hard to comprehend. But on our level of play, probably not yours, an advantage of that size wins you the turtle game, unless you f*ck up big time.

Again. The ambusher is not overpowered, It just gives one certain of play a GREAT advantage. And makes turtling very hard and even may make it impossible.

[Office_Shredder]

Once again, I repeat: use two clerics

[Megabyte]

You can't help it with most turtles, unless something is infront of ur cleric 4 spaces, and one toward the wall.

Also, buddy, the dsm can kill the cleric first move next to the lw...

why are u spewing noob tactics like they're insightful? and why are many of ur statements conatradictory to themselves?

unhonorable isn't a word, dishonorable is the one your looking for.

[Jeffery]

And no, a DWM 2nd space from the wall can NOT kill the corner cleric when he has a LW 4 spaces in front of him. It would need a move of 4 to do that, as it is 3 spaces to get past LW, then 1 to get behind it, and blast the cleric.
Keep trying. It's fun seeing you n00b it up.

[Scroll Lock]

And no, a DWM 2nd space from the wall can NOT kill the corner cleric when he has a LW 4 spaces in front of him. It would need a move of 4 to do that, as it is 3 spaces to get past LW, then 1 to get behind it, and blast the cleric.
Keep trying. It's fun seeing you n00b it up.


Yes, yes it can... ARE YOU DUMB?! The other people here even agreed with this.

Also, i am saying that killing clerics is nothing new, just cause the ambusher does it, doesn't mean it can't be stopped.

[Jeffery]

Yes, yes it can... ARE YOU DUMB?! The other people here even agreed with this.

Also, i am saying that killing clerics is nothing new, just cause the ambusher does it, doesn't mean it can't be stopped.
So how the hell does your DMW get 4 spaces to kill the cleric in her first move???
Explain it, because it is not possible. If the opponent has his LW front line in front of his cleric, and your DWM is in the second space from the wall, there are 4 spaces to move to kill the cleric.


000000000LD0
000000000000
000000000L00
000000000X00
000000000000
00000000000
000000000C

L= Lightening Ward
D= Dark Witch Mage
X= Where you must be to blast cleric
C= Cleric
0=empty space

4 moves to get there. With a 3 move limit, tell me how you do it on first turn. You can;t.

A DSM or Pyro with a DSM on field CAN do it, but a DMW can not.

[Scroll Lock]

Here, i'll make it graphical for you, moron.


http://www.jeet3k.net/taurine/safdef.JPG

There ya go, now don't you feal really really DUMB.

[_B0b_]

Scroll...you really are stupid. Jeffrey is talking about the DMW not the DSM.

But for the DSM its obvious that he is right jeffrey... although the easiest way to stop that is to have a knight there...therefore the DSM cannot reach.

[Scroll Lock]

I don't care what hes talking about, i originally said, and CONTINUED to say DSM. He contridicted my statement, so i don't care what he said.

[Jeffery]

Well, since I said DMW, and you said I was wrong, it's not my fault you can;t tell the difference.

[_B0b_]

Scroll... you quoted Jeffrey saying DMW then said -

"Yes, yes it can... ARE YOU DUMB?! The other people here even agreed with this."

I believe that you are wrong. And you were talking about the DMW seeing that you did not specify that you were talking about something totally different to what you were quoting.

Like Jeffrey said, it's not his fault that you can't read.

[Scroll Lock]

Well, you also said i was wrong about the DSM. No big deal, your still dumb... but as for the best suggestion yet, 2 clerics!

[_B0b_]

Uh... scroll lock. Using 2 clerics would be stupid against th DSM on the front line. That just means that both of them will probably die. If you haven't noticed, a bunch of other people have already noted that a double cleric formation would be a counter for the ambusher rush.

Read other poeples posts Scroll Lock. Don't just centre on your own.

[Scroll Lock]

Here is some help for you...

Posting Etiquette
1) Read Post
2) Form Opinion
3) Back Opionion with Facts
4) Post


I was saying that the 2 clerics is the best idea i have seen yet, YOU IDIOT.

[***Duo***]

I'm sick of reading this crap.
Get it straight moron.
You SUCK.


-Duo

[_B0b_]

And I was saying that it was not a good counter for your DSM rush. And the way which you formed your post gives the impression that you thought it was your idea.

Please, follow your own rules. And I agree with Duo here. You are a moron, and so am I for even stooping to your level.

[Scroll Lock]

You were saying read the other posts and understand them, i just didn't address that part of your post. However, its null because a dragon can kill it like snap.

[***Duo***]

Moron!
What are you trying to say?!
The dragon can kill what?
The DSM?
The DSM is sapping the dragons powers!
Gosh man, are you by any chance one of those "Pure-bred-idiots" I keep hearing about??


-Duo

[Scroll Lock]

Moron!
What are you trying to say?!
The dragon can kill what?
The DSM?
The DSM is sapping the dragons powers!
Gosh man, are you by any chance one of those "Pure-bred-idiots" I keep hearing about??


-Duo


Aside for the other dude is using the dsm, not me... However if i was, then the LW can kill it, either way your theory is hella flawed. 2 archers = its dead, really anything its done for, so just dont bother

[Office_Shredder]

And a frost golem can freeze a ga, solving all the cleric kill problems, right?

[***Duo***]

What in the world are you saying???
Man...this is so messed up I don't even want to post here anymore.


-Duo

[Scroll Lock]

You got SERVED!

[***Duo***]

...
That was really pathetic.
Idiot.


-Duo

[Scroll Lock]

... that was a joke, although it was true.

[xyxaxyz2]

No reason to attack Scroll Lock here.

Anyways, I like the Golem Ambusher. Makes my gold games easier when my opponent wastes one of his unit slots with him.

[Duffman]

No reason to attack Scroll Lock here.

Anyways, I like the Golem Ambusher. Makes my gold games easier when my opponent wastes one of his unit slots with him.
You say that about most units.

[T3km4n]

He obviously doesn't say that about 10 of them.

[The Golden Wolf]

i dont think you should make it better (well maybe the waiting turns i hate that) but ive used it and i have a good setup with it and i think it is good

[Office_Shredder]

He obviously doesn't say that about 10 of them.

Not true... last time I played him he used 3 knights.... so 8 of them :rolleyes:

[Scroll Lock]

ty xyz

and as for for it killing clerics, its preventable, and it has to be luck to be in the right position.

[_B0b_]

Yes Scroll Lock. That is what we were discussing 4 pages ago. Back to our original topic now I see?

[Bottle]

Well, having read through the last 4 pages of hate, I have the following to say.

1. Scroll lock did originally say DSM, not DMW. Someone else brought the DMW into it.

2. Scroll lock, you need to get off your high horse, and stop pretending that you're the only one who knows how to play the game. We all know about first turn cleric kills, and we all know that killing the cleric with the ambusher requires luck of getting the same side. That's what we were arguing about long before you entered the discussion.

3. I think the general consensus is that the ambusher has only one use, and that's cleric kill, and that's if the rusher get lucky with same side. End of story.

4. Using double clerics is pretty much the same as using one cleric and a BW. It still takes up another vital unit spot in the turtle.

[Office_Shredder]

It can't be that vital a spot if your opponent is wasting one to use a ga....

[Scroll Lock]

DUDE, the kid was argueing that you can't kill it on the first turn, dont say i have to get off my hourse, i think you need to teach yours to read!

[xyxaxyz2]

Not true... last time I played him he used 3 knights.... so 8 of them :rolleyes:

2 Knights, 2 Scouts, 2 for one dragon, mud, cleric, frost, dsm.

So 7 of them.

Golem Ambusher makes grey vs gold much easier as well; my knights eat him apart. He's like a frost, except not at all scary and not nearly as dangerous.

[Office_Shredder]

Scroll Lock, we were arguing that it is not that hard to stop a first turn kill actually

And why would you teach a horse to read?

[Scroll Lock]

Okay, first off, i said its luck to stop a first turn cleric kill, and it is. Second off, your wrong, this topic is about the ambusher killing the cleric(ambusher in general really).

Third off, i was joking about the horse, u idiot.

[_B0b_]

Okay, first off, i said its luck to stop a first turn cleric kill, and it is. Second off, your wrong, this topic is about the ambusher killing the cleric(ambusher in general really).

Third off, i was joking about the horse, u idiot.

Ok, first off. No. It's not. As a grey it is impossible to have your cleric killed on the first turn, unless you play with a horrible setup. This is because your knights are beside your lightning ward, leaving no path for the DSM to go through. My gold also does the same thing.
Secondly, you are wrong. This topic was originally about lowering the stats of the Golem Ambusher, as Elendil thought that it was too powerful. That was just one of the reasons why Elendil thought it was too powerful.

Thirdly. You really need to teach yours how to spell.

[Scroll Lock]

HOW AM I WRONG, thats EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!

[_B0b_]

Did you even read what you wrote?

You said that it was only luck that could stop a first turn cleric kill. That is not true. Knights stop a first turn cleric kill and so do lightning wards.

[Scroll Lock]

Luck, because of who gets first turn.

Also, your wrong, you can have all you want infront of it, but the ambusher can kill it... Try not to make yourself look so stupid.

[_B0b_]

As I said, read other peoples posts. That is what a BARRIER WARD is for.

And read your own posts while your at it. How can a Golem Ambusher kill a cleric on the first turn? It does 20 damage, and a cleric has 24 health. If you can't do that subtraction (24-20 = 4, which means the cleric has 4 health left, and is therefore still alive) then... there is no hope for you.

You said,
i said its luck to stop a first turn cleric kill, and it is.

Note the first turn part there. Oh, and the cleric too. And the kill. It has to die to be a kill.

[Scroll Lock]

Dude, i'm not even contridicting you until you start being stupid, so don't insult.


This is getting boring so im not gonna bother posting the obvious anymore.


The barrier ward can also protect the other persons ambusher, i wasnt talking first turn exactly, but more of its iminent. When really its not with the ambusher, thats why its NOT to powerful. Thats what i've been saying for so long now, understand or not, i won't respond to your idiotic post that will follow.

[***Duo***]

Freaking moron..........


-Duo

[Office_Shredder]

wait wait wait.... so when you say "its luck to stop a first turn cleric kill" you mean it's easy to stop the first turn cleric kill, but it's hard to stop your cleric from dying on turn.... say... four or five. Right. That's just so obvious.

Oh, and something I just remembered: I had a turtle w/ a BW in it back in the days of the Rev tournament.... it handed Darque his only loss (it was my 1 win in the best out of three in the end)... so don't say BW can't be used in a turtle

[Bottle]

Ok, I won't.

A BW is HARD to use in a turtle. Unless you have same-side turtle battles.

And here's a little something Bob wrote on the other thread for Scroll Lock:

The problem with stupid people is that they don't think they're one of them.

[Jeffery]

You all do know Scroll Lock = Lord Eric, right?

[WaCk-HeAd]

Back to the good ole' Eric we all know and love... :rolleyes:

Yes.

[Office_Shredder]

Bottle, I won with an opposite side turtle game against him. I used the BW to Barrier my stone golem, letting me leave him relatively undefended (especially since I had two frosties.... that might have helped a little) while I nailed darque's SG.... at that point he just rushed knights into FGs and lost.