Scout LOS

[xyxaxyz2]

Anyone know exactly how this works? I think I do.

[Ri'Orius]

I just know that it's weird. I was once able to hit a Frost Golem in a corner with someone on all three sides with a Scout. Dunno how I did it, didn't expect it to work, but it did.

Enlighten us?

[xyxaxyz2]

I'm really interested in that. I want to hear some personal experiences before revealing my idea.

Was it sort of like this:

[G][K]
[K][K]
[S]

[Haelix]

I've been meaning to do a test with someone about this. I recently had a scout shoot seemingly through my units to hit my Witch. It was on kind of an angle at range. Something like this:

[ ][ ][ ]
[ ][W][P]
[ ][A ][K]
[ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][S]

[xyxaxyz2]

I tried that, it didn't work until the scout was right next to the knight. (2 spaces North of its space in your picture)

[Dragonslayers]

Draw a line; 1/3 of any square cut off, the shot stops there.

Trick shots are possible, ie:

T _
K K
_ S

Scout at S can hit T.

[Lone Wolf]

I to am interested in the solutions for this problem.

could you explain that 1/3 of square thing more clearly for me please dragonslayer.

I would be much abliged.

- Lone Wolf

[Haelix]

Yeah xyxaxyz2,

I probably didn't get the formation right. It was something like that.

Try shooting so that the angle of the slope passes right through the middle of the square holding defenders.

[W][ ]
[ ][L]
[A ][K]
[ ][ ]
[ ][S]

Or even something like this:

[W][ ]
[ ][L]
[A ][K]
[ ][ ]
[ ][ ]
[ ][S]

[WatchYoSelf]

Thats pretty cool. Didn't know you could make shots like that.

[xyxaxyz2]

Just tested the first, Haelix. It worked.

[Dragonslayers]

Basically any shot is possible as long as you don't cut off more than a third of any square you pass through with the LOS line from the center of your square to the center of the target square.

[Wurtil]

Was it sort of like this:

[G][K]
[K][K]
[S]



The Dark Lord is intrigued, for how exactly did you plan to get from S to G with a scout. Or is the Dark Lord missing the picture and there are exterior forces at work here. I warn you though, any comments about the Dark Lord not understanding will be greeted with harsh retrobution.

Your friendly neighborhood Dark Lord,
Wurtil

[xyxaxyz2]

It is actually this, Dark Lord.
[G][K]
[K][K]
[ ][S]

[Wurtil]

That was the response that was the most notably favorable of expected replies. The Dark Lord can attest that with all foes that he has crushed, there have been no extrordinary shots falling outside the boundries you have placed down xyxaxyz2. Continue your good work, and there may even be a glorious place set aside for you in the kingdom of the Dark Lord.

Your friendly neighborhood Dark Lord,
Wurtil

[xyxaxyz2]

I think Dragonslayer is close to correct, in not entirely.

[Haelix]

According to the 1/3 of a square theory, and and some simple geometry, I've created a diagram of the scout shots that should be unaffected by other units trying to stand in the way.

X - the shot will not cut off more than 1/3 of any square.
3 - the shot will cut off exactly 1/3 of an intervening square.
S - is the scout.
0 - the shot will cut off more than 1/3 of an intervening square.

0
X 0 X
0 X 0 X 0
0 0 3 0 3 0 0
0 0 0 X 0 X 0 0 X
X X 3 X X X X X 3 X X
0 0 0 0 0 X S X 0 0 0 0 0
X X 3 X X X X X 3 X X
0 0 0 X 0 X 0 0 X
0 0 3 0 3 0 0
0 X 0 X 0
X 0 X
0

According to my calculations, here is the maximum area a shot will cut off a square, based on the shots slope.
(Negative slopes are the same.)

(inf) 1/2 for all intersections past the first.
5,1/5 3/10 of a square
4,1/4 5/32 of a square
3,1/3 1/3 of a square
2,1/2 3/16 of a square for the first intersection, and
1/2 of a square for the second intersection.
2/3,3/2 5/12 of a square
1 1/2 for second and third intersections.
0 1/2 for all intersections past the first.

Well, there's the result of the math, go, test it! Now!

Haelix
Edit:
(Argh, the font difference between here and the entry section makes this difficult.)
Edit5:
(Ah, the wonders of the CODE tag.)

[Choi]

Have you tested to see if the square with exactly 1/3 cuts off the shot or not? (nice work, btw)

[Haelix]

Not yet. I was gripped by the math problem last night, and calculated it out. That was past my bed time, and I paid for it today, trying to get up. I leave it to much better players to test.

Haelix

[Choi]

Well, the rest of use thank you for your sacrifice. :D

[xyxaxyz2]

[W][ ]
[K ][ ]
[ ][ ]
[ ][ ]
[ ][ ]
[ ][S ]

I tested this. The knight blocked.

I don't think the 1/3 rule works. Every unit has complete control over their square. The reason you can shoot between 2 units is they only control their squares, not the edges.

[Choi]

Hmm. Maybe the unit in the way matters... It's possible that the designers coded larger units like Knight and Dragon to block more of their square...

[xyxaxyz2]

Just made the same shot with a cleric blocking.

[Haelix]

I'm not sure what xyxaxyz2 is trying to say regarding controlling squares, but not edges.

Perhaps the answer is, that the cut off ratio is less, or that squares through which the shot line crosses the middle of the border between two squares is not blocked.
I.E.

[W][ ] [W][ ]
[K][K] or [ ][ ]
[ ][S] [K][K]
[ ][ ]
[ ][S]

Has anyone tried:

[W][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][K][K][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][S]

Just for fun?

[xyxaxyz2]

[W][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][K][K][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][S]

fails.

[AzN_GuY]

I'd be more likely to throw my lot in with edges because shots like

[]WK[]
[]K[][]
[][][]S


must still be possible... iono

[Eldar[TN]]

It moves laterally and hops across rows at the division point.

I.E. if your six squares away from your target and one down...three squares away is where the arrow crosses.


Thats what I think anyway.

[xyxaxyz2]

Its a bit more complicated than that because this works:

[C][]
[][]
[][]
[][K]
[][S]

I think. I haven't tested.

[Eldar[TN]]

Originally posted by xyxaxyz2
Its a bit more complicated than that because this works:

[C][]
[][]
[][]
[][K]
[][S]

I think. I haven't tested.

I've hit my units doing that so I don't think it works...

[AzN_GuY]

I think it works... i know that shooting with someone in your face usually works...

[Eldar[TN]]

Originally posted by AzN_GuY
I think it works... i know that shooting with someone in your face usually works...

hes saying I'm trying to hit the cleric o0

[AzN_GuY]

nooo "with someone in your faaace"

if the knight was in front of the cleric, the shot fails i believe
if the knight is in front of the scout, it succeeds...

[xyxaxyz2]

Yes, exactly. I hope I'm not right.

[Eldar[TN]]

Originally posted by AzN_GuY
nooo "with someone in your faaace"

if the knight was in front of the cleric, the shot fails i believe
if the knight is in front of the scout, it succeeds...

o0 weird, I always hit my units in the back when I do side column shots with a knight or something in front.

[Dunbar]

Ok, here's how it works. First off, I wanted to test when you are going to hit a unit from the side or from the front. The K represents a knight facing up. The F, S, and R represent whether you hit the front, side or rear if you shoot from that point.


F
F F F
F F F F F
F F F F F F F
S S F F F F F S S
S S S S F F F S S S S
S S S S S S K S S S S S S
S S S S R R R S S S S
S S R R R R R S S
R R R R R R R
R R R R R
R R R
R


Basically, the diagonals off the way the unit is facing and the area in between count as front. The diagonals along the back of the unit and the area in between count as rear. Everything else is a side shot.

Now for the good stuph: will your shot be blocked or not? Here we go. In the following, S = scout, T = target, O = a unit here will not block you, and X = a unit here will block you.


O T
O X O T
O O O X O T
O O O O O X O T
X O X O X O O O O T
S O S O S O S O S O

O O T
O O O O O T
O X O O X O O O T
O O O O X O O X O O O T
S O O S O O S O O S O O

O O O T
O O X O O O O T
O X O O O X X O O O O X T O O O O X T
S O O O S O O O S X O O O S X O O O O


This should cover all possibilities I think. Basically, if any unit is in any of the X squares, you will not hit your target. All of the O squares could be filled, and you will still hit your target. I left out simplistic cases like SXXXXT...obviously along any of the cardinal directions any unit will block you shot.

It is interesting to note that in certain positions, it is impossible for your opponent to block your scout.

Edit: edited to be easier to read.

Edit2: oh, and you never have to shoot your own units in the back. When you click on a unit to attack, but before you click a second time to confirm, the game tells you how much damage you will do as well as your chance to hit. If your shot is blocked, it will show a 0% chance to hit. If that's the case, don't shoot :)

[Dragonslayers]

Sounds good...

Aside from the fourth block example there don't seem to be any "trick-shots"... but do you really think THIS would work?

_ T
_ _
K K
K K
_ _
S _

Until that's tested I refuse to believe it :P Maybe a screenshot of the miraculous Annie Oakley Scout in action? ;)

Originally posted by Dunbar
Ok, here's how it works. First off, I wanted to test when you are going to hit a unit from the side or from the front. The K represents a knight facing up. The F, S, and R represent whether you hit the front, side or rear if you shoot from that point.


F
F F F
F F F F F
F F F F F F F
S S F F F F F S S
S S S S F F F S S S S
S S S S S S K S S S S S S
S S S S R R R S S S S
S S R R R R R S S
R R R R R R R
R R R R R
R R R
R


Basically, the diagonals off the way the unit is facing and the area in between count as front. The diagonals along the back of the unit and the area in between count as rear. Everything else is a side shot.

Now for the good stuph: will your shot be blocked or not? Here we go. In the following, S = scout, T = target, O = a unit here will not block you, and X = a unit here will block you.


O T
O X O T
O O O X O T
O O O O O X O T
X O X O X O O O O T
S O S O S O S O S O

O O T
O O O O O T
O X O O X O O O T
O O O O X O O X O O O T
S O O S O O S O O S O O

O O O T
O O X O O O O T
O X O O O X X O O O O X T O O O O X T
S O O O S O O O S X O O O S X O O O O


This should cover all possibilities I think. Basically, if any unit is in any of the X squares, you will not hit your target. All of the O squares could be filled, and you will still hit your target. I left out simplistic cases like SXXXXT...obviously along any of the cardinal directions any unit will block you shot.

It is interesting to note that in certain positions, it is impossible for your opponent to block your scout.

Edit: edited to be easier to read.

Edit2: oh, and you never have to shoot your own units in the back. When you click on a unit to attack, but before you click a second time to confirm, the game tells you how much damage you will do as well as your chance to hit. If your shot is blocked, it will show a 0% chance to hit. If that's the case, don't shoot :)

[MinigunSniper]

I just realized that many members of this forum have waaaayyyy to much time on their hands. :cool:

[Haelix]

As per this information:

O O T
O O O
O X O
O O O
S O O


Has anyone tested this formation to see if a hit is possible?


O O T
O U U
O O O
U U O
S O O


Where U is any unit.

And we don't have waaay too much time on our hands, we just want to know how our units work. And we have way too much time on our hands.

Haelix

[Amrath Luap]

I tested it, it does indeed work...

Amazing, eh? ;)

[Dunbar]

Geez, nobody believes me :(

Heh, but it is good to have confirmation :)

I wonder if this would work...say you have this situation:


X O
W O
K O
O O
O O
O S


Now as we know the scout cannot hit the witch (W) because the knight is in the way. However, if the scout shoots at X (an empty square behind the witch), in theory the witch should be hit as she gets in the way of the arrow. I'll have to try this out when I get a chance.

[xyxaxyz2]

I think you're right Dunbar.

[Haelix]

Wow Dunbar, that is cool. Good work!

[Choi]

I can't wait for an opportunity to test shooting at a blank square to hit a guarded target. It makes sense and is definitely worth a try.

[Rescorlian]

Holy crap you guy's. Nice work, I din't think anyone could concieve of so many possiblities or even discussion on scout LOS.
I'm amazed you haven't figured out a way to shoot through an opponent. :)

[Amrath Luap]

It works!

Yet another cool trick shot ;)

I thought that when you shoot an empty square it returns you to aim mode... I know you can't shoot an empty square with a Ward...

[Dunbar]

Yep, works for me too. I love scouts...they're my fav unit from day 1. With this analysis done I can now get the most out of them...they are capable of some crazy shots.

This will probably be pretty important with the stone golems being out...getting into a position to shoot them will be a priority, and knowing exactly where you can hit them from is definitely an advantage.

[Amrath Luap]

Look at this!


O T O O
O W O O
K K K K K
O O O O O
S O O O O


A scout aiming at T will hit W! A single knight-wall is no longer safe against anyone who knows this trick shot.... unfortunately there are no trick shots allowing hits more than one column away.

[Aro23r]

Amazing thread. I love the scout even more than ever before thanks to you guys.

[ArcPaladinZero]

Well I guess the scouts aren't that bad after all. :D

[Ri'Orius]

*bumps*

This is good stuff that I think all serious players should know.

[ArcPaladinZero]

So if you aim at one it hits the other... interesting... man scouts n pyros own... :cool:

[QuicksandSlowly]

I happen to posses two Scouts, and this is doubly cool for me. :D

[Al Caponeoni]

Yep. One of the advantages of these servers Quick.

We also get the Stony, DSM, and somethinelse free as well.k

:D

[insignifiGant]

Originally posted by Amrath Luap
Look at this!


O T O O
O W O O
K K K K K
O O O O O
S O O O O


A scout aiming at T will hit W! A single knight-wall is no longer safe against anyone who knows this trick shot.... unfortunately there are no trick shots allowing hits more than one column away.


edit... also I'm not sure ^ is right... I know you can do this:


O T O O O
B W B B B
B B B B B
B B B B B
O B B B B
S O O O O


by aiming at T with a scout at S, you can hit W, with blockers at any/all B
um... what about

O O O T O O O
B B B B B B B
O O T O O O O
B B B B B B B
O S O O O O O


a scout at S could hit any T with blockers at any/all B

but everyone should know this by now...

[acolytem]

wow... now i wish that i can get a second scout. but all i've seen of units won are clerics. is there a certain day that scouts get gifted?

[BlackSyphon]

dude, read nad's (http://www.freewebs.com/nadstaosite/) thread, it explains it well, besides, scout LOS and info are pasted all over the forums!!! Look around people, IT ALL WORKS OUT!!!

:) :) :) :)

du

[AFI LTJ]

wow confusing

[tri-Ace]

Originally posted by Amrath Luap
It works!

Yet another cool trick shot ;)

I thought that when you shoot an empty square it returns you to aim mode... I know you can't shoot an empty square with a Ward...
You can totally hit an empty square with a Lightning Ward, but I don't know about a Barrier.

[bludhoundz]

uh.... if nads' thread still had the website running you could all see screen shots that make a bit more sense and some other cool trick shots like this one
T = target
B= blocker
S= scout
P = special square (shoot at this one)
o= blanksquare

[p][T][b][b][b][b]
[b][b][b][b][o][S]
or
[p][T][b][b][b]
[b][b][b][o][S]

if you aim behind the target when it has a blocker in front of it and is in either of those cases you have yourself a nice shot (good for scraping frosties)
but if you have a blocker in front of the scout it doesn't work

[kensai]

As a brief summary,

the pattern of potential target locations consists of symmetrial 8ths so looking at a 45-degree arc is enough. If the target is on the same line or diagonal as the Scout, hit / block situation is obvious. This leaves only six locations to consider.

Firing from (0,0) to
(1,2): hit
(1,3): (0,1) blocks. Otherwise reachable by aiming at (1,4).
(1,4): (0,1) blocks.
(1,5): (0,1) and (1,4) block.
(2,3): (1,1) and (1,2) block.
(2,4): (1,2) blocks.

As demonstrated by a colleague, (1,3) is the only trick shot. Aiming at (1,4) rather than (1,3) means that an obsctacle at (1,2) does not block the shot.

[Aro23r]

There is a sticky here. Read it.