The Search for the Anti-Rush

[zzzaacckk]

Hello, My name is zzzaacckk and I am a long standing turteler from Great Lakes. I have gotten by quite well in turtle games but seem to be lacking when I try and switch over and try my luck at rushing. I cannot stand the luck involved so I am taking a stand and trying to get the most popular formation back to turteling... I see it this way. anti>rush>turtle>anti. Now if everyone starts antiing then the turtle will return so let us begin our quest for a good anti rush. I have ideas but I need input because they are not so great. Feel free to post ideas and reults of testing.
http://img188.exs.cx/img188/8847/antirush11ek.jpg
http://img188.exs.cx/img188/8958/antirush25ql.jpg
http://img163.exs.cx/img163/396/antirush39rq.jpg
http://img163.exs.cx/img163/4056/antirush49yf.jpg
the first one tested better than the second but both were beaten. Now the idea of the anti from what I understand is based on the grey turtle. Another idea is an all out mage bomb but I would like to move away from that idea. Some of these ideas may have been used before so please feel free to add ideas and comment on the forms that I have posted. They are not yet good enough for me to use in constant battle and this is why I require assistance.

[CRX687]

You can spend a LOT of time finding a lightsaber, or u can just get a gun that's even bigger than the gunner's :p

when i know i'm facing a rush... [img=http://img139.exs.cx/img139/9726/rushingtherush7dm.th.jpg] (http://img139.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img139&image=rushingtherush7dm.jpg)

I'd be honored if ya'll try it ;)

[Terps rock]

thats borderline rush

[Office_Shredder]

No, I think that's just a rush

[Cavour]

thats borderline rush
It is a Rush my perceptive little friend. :rolleyes:

Crx is saying "Fight fire with fire" rather than "Fight fire with a fire extinguisher."

Those antis aren't bad Zz, but I really don't know how effective they'd be against a solid rusher. Next time I can get online I'll rush each of em a couple times if you want. It'll get me some Rush practice in, and you can trim down some weak spots in those antis. :)

[Red Fire]

I ahven't faced a rush in a long time, but when I do face one, I just use my normal turtle game set-up, and it works pretty dam fine. Those are some nice forms though zzz, just my preference is all.

-Red

[CRX687]

Crx is saying "Fight fire with fire" rather than "Fight fire with a fire extinguisher."


or maybe i'm telling him to fight fire with a fire-extinguishing fire :eek:

cuz the rush i posted isn't that useful against turtles... well, not as useful as some other rushes.

[Terps rock]

see ah ha knew i wasn't crazy....... ok well i got lucky

[Cavour]

or maybe i'm telling him to fight fire with a fire-extinguishing fire :eek:
:eek:

see ah ha knew i wasn't crazy....... ok well i got lucky
Nah, you're still wrong.

[zzzaacckk]

lets get back on topic please we are looking for imporvements on existing ANTI rush forms or new ones or ideas/theorys on beating rushes with non rushes or bombs.

[Aro23r]

You can spend a LOT of time finding a lightsaber, or u can just get a gun that's even bigger than the gunner's :p


That's quite an analogy. But, I don't like rushes in general, so I'll keep the lightsaber search going for a while.

[Terps rock]

i never played a good gold rush cuz im grey if played turtled golds but only beaten 2 and they rushed i froze their army and barriered. look at my battle reports i didnt take a shot but that is my power there

[zzzaacckk]

the golds 1 is a turtle. We already established that turtles get pwned by any rusher that knows what they are doing. I didnt bother looking at the grey.

[zzzaacckk]

I wanna see a screenie of you using that turtle and beating a gold rusher with stats 1350+

[Cavour]

it doesnt get pwned by rushers wen i use it. maybe i am skilled in the way of the TAO. lol
Or maybe you've never played a moderate Rusher.

[CRX687]

it doesnt get pwned by rushers wen i use it. maybe i am skilled in the way of the TAO. lol

play me with it, and we'll see how skilled u are in that way :cool:

[Office_Shredder]

all I know is you're just asking for a cleric kill. Then some scout kills. Then a bunch of other stuff dying really fast

[Cuathon]

lol @crx
that rush is rampant on Gl. personally i thinks its bad. i walk all over it every game.

[KBHoleN1]

No one's even paying attention to zzzaacckk, how sad. Then I will - so, if we're looking for ant-rush forms, we're obviously guarding the cleric for one thing. So let's examine the cleric-kills of a rush:

1. GA - not much you can do if they get first move, but the barrier ward is a good distraction. LW and 2 knight hits will do it, but by then your opponent is in position to kill the cleric with something else. (Why I don't like the GA) But the LW is a must for an anti-GA rush, if you plan on killing the GA. Maybe a frostie in behind the LW could work, or a poison wisp, but unbarriered focusers would get killed that far forward. *Sigh* I hate GAs.

2. Pyro bomb - obviously, a wall of units up front, easiest is LW and a knight or 2.

3. Poison wisp/ muddie kill - keep 2 units in front of your cleric to stop wisp. Not much you can do against the mud quake, but 3 spaces away only does 5, so it still survives a scout hit, we won't worry too much about the mud quake by itself, you should be able to finish off the muddie.

4. Scouts - LOS blockers are a key, this is the only thing a pure turtle can defend against. Furgons work well if you use it properly - lots of bushes to protect your cleric from those nasty scout flankers.

But guarding so much against cleric-kills usually leaves no good attackers, and all-defense rarely works against a good rush. If you take the time to stop a GA or muddie by killing it, you've wasted at least 3 turns or sacrificed a poison wisp, and that gets you no where but dead. Sad to say, but it seems the best anti-rush is another rush, something like CRX's that targets the rushing units specifically - interesting idea to protect the cleric with the wisp, i like it. Even a great anti-rush can't stop every type of rushing unit, so it still comes down to luck - is the rusher using the right units in the right places?

Just my 2 cents, feel free to flame my opinions, everyone else does. :(

[Thargor]

good description of cleric preservation here is a form I tried to accomplish that with.

http://olinger.home.mindspring.com/_uimages/anti-rush.JPG

[Duffman]

Anti-Rush but definitely not to be used against a bomb :p

http://img194.exs.cx/img194/1230/antirush3bt.png

[zzzaacckk]

Ill assume that no one has any imput or else they would have already posted (other then duffy) thnx anyways...:(

[sub the hendrix]

WAIT dont stop yet zack. I think a key component of an anti-rush is to not rely on a cleric. Yeah, of course you should protect it, but protect your other units as well. Barrier ward and furgon work well for that. Also, make it versatile enough to attack as well as defend. Those are just my opinions anyways. What ive seen so far with people's screenies are basically grey-looking turtles with gold enhancements, and I suppose thats ok, but be prepared to go offensive

[Wayfaerer]

http://img197.exs.cx/img197/374/aniuhtutle.jpg

[sub the hendrix]

That looks a little vulnerable to muddie wayfarer, to much of a turtle. I think an anti rush should not use stoney, to get another attacking unit in.

[Office_Shredder]

Most of the muddy spots end up with a dead muddy pretty fast

[sub the hendrix]

Maybe, but you still get de-stoned. If you are fighting a rush, unless you get first turn and play very well, you will likely be destoned, and obvously restoneing is difficult. If you dont rely on stoning your units I personally think its a more effective anti-rush

[Wayfaerer]

The stone isn't for your first turn (unless they suck) which most people can't comprehend as a strategy. Once the low hp focus breakers are dead (with the exception of a scout or ambusher) you can stone whatever chunk of your units you think needs it most. The stone also makes a nice wall which can't be penetrated.

[sub the hendrix]

Good point. Not sure I would use it, but I understand the logic.

[KBHoleN1]

Wayf, I really like that form, and I agree that the muddie won't do much there - looks solid.

[FryLock]

Of course, Wayf's form might have some trouble against another turtle..but it's fairly solid. Of course, not much can stop the ambusher, without, as already mentioned, leaving the cleric open for a bunch of other stuff. Though, if you can work it so you swap only your cleric for 2 or 3 of their units, you might have an advantage, with the furgon and frosty still left.

That said, I must agree, I'm not a big fan of the ambusher. If I rush, I use it, as it's almost a surety that my opponent will have one trained on my own cleric. But I don't get a big thrill out of putting him on the lucky side and whacking the cleric. But it's a part of the game now...

One tactic I've found (marginally) helpful in dealing with a rush is dual clerics. A corner stone-less form with frosty has seen me through a bit, as has a quasi-defensive spread with clerics far apart on the back rank. At least with the spread clerics, you have a better chance of surviving the death of one. Of course, most people are lining up the ambusher on 1 side and the wisp on the other, so even 2 clerics may not last long.

[razor2007]

I think we ahd the right idea there, what about an annti-rush that doesnt need/use a cleric, it becomes a quasi-turtle that cna target specific rushing units (ga, wisp and muddy) and then is evenly matched with rush having 2 knight, frosty, dt, 2 scout, LW, cleric, and another knight or throw in the assassin. I think the model should be the grey turt as i have had trouble infiltrating them, the primary objective of a rush. This MAY allow you to isolate one side, pick it off and then grab the other.

[Cuathon]

um wayfs form is weak to a scout. if you get first turn.

[Office_Shredder]

The biggest problem I have with most current anti-rushes is that they're just one sided rushes for the most part.... and not real defensive setups.

And whenever you talk about a "turtle" or something that can lose its cleric easily, 9 out of 10 times we're talking about a one sided rush that's just disguised.

[Wayfaerer]

um wayfs form is weak to a scout. if you get first turn.

There is nowhere on the board where a scout can hit the cleric on the first turn :confused:

[sub the hendrix]

I have seen a really good grey rush (actually one of the only good grey rushes I have ever seen) that had two clerics. The interesting thing was that the clerics were in opposite corners. I have no idea whether that would work for a gold, but it made it so that there was no single spot to focus my attack on.

[HellDead Reaper]

Well, on the Legends server, most anti-rushes seperate clerics on both sides of the field so the rusher doesn't focus on a central part (turtle). Plus the ambusher is most likely in range to hit corner cleric, so most players dont leave their clerics in the corner. Also, rushes usually have seperated clerics too (both sides of the field). I dont think one-sided turts will be effective, because rushes make you focus on the attackers, and "then" the clerics backing them up.

I dont depend on clerics or focus-spellcasters however. The cleric-killing strategy is only effective if the opponent actually has clerics. Without clerics, GAs would be rushed. instead of focusing on defending clerics, attacking rush units are more effective. Also, rushes tend to null the effect of focus spells. The dual frosts are slgihtly effective, but only 1 frost tends to just stay there gettin quaked.

Using heavy attackers are very effective against rushes. Triple knights, Lward, and Dragons (no one uses dragons on this server though) > beasts, scouts, muds.

Also, ive found mage bombs are useful too. Both rushes AND bombs are hated effective formations, killing the turtle formation's strategy, why not use them against each other.

Taking away what the rush is efffective against is the only way to counter the rush.

[Office_Shredder]

Most rushes use knights along with scouts and muddy, so using knights against them doesn't help. And the dragon just gets lit up so fast, it's not the best defender (not worse than everyone else, but it's not god or anything)

[zzzaacckk]

personally when anti rushing you wanna maxamize your units and defocus attack. dragons are just not a good idea im my oppinion.

[Office_Shredder]

well, the dragon is good because he can take out a key unit when you need it.... like a DSM, or a wisp.

[Wayfaerer]

2 knights are way better than a dragon :cool:

[sub the hendrix]

2 knights are way better than a dragon :cool:
For an anti-rush, yes. Especially if you keeps stoney ready for them in the endgame. In a turtle on turtle, of course, dragons unblockable attack, and enormous attack power are good for a key hit, but we arent talking turtle on turtle...

[Office_Shredder]

Except three knights and a dragon are better than three knights ;)

[bludhoundz]

For an anti-rush, yes. Especially if you keeps stoney ready for them in the endgame. In a turtle on turtle, of course, dragons unblockable attack, and enormous attack power are good for a key hit, but we arent talking turtle on turtle...
A dragon may be good turtle on turtle as well, but I prefer two knights. If all your stoned units get killed, you have survivors.

[HellDead Reaper]

yes, but dragons are also a cleric-killer. On Legends, everytime i place my dragon front lines across the cleric, everytime it isnt guarded in a rush. So i use a dragon to kill a cleric on one side, and mud+ambusher combo to kill cleric on the other side. I just use rush' tactics against them, since most of our rushers on Legends (netjak) have a dbl cleric rush.

Plus i dont like that knights depend too much on luck in the endgame. Ive played too many endgames where it was knight vs. knight scenario, and someone had to take a chance.

[sub the hendrix]

A dragon may be good turtle on turtle as well, but I prefer two knights. If all your stoned units get killed, you have survivors. In a turtle on turtle Furgon pawns two knights, while you scouts/frosty pick them off.

[FryLock]

Yeah, that's assuming you still have the scouts. If you've got a furgon in your turtle set, odds are that you've only got 4, maybe 5 attacking units.
But in any case, I almost always use a furgon in my turtles now, I'm just very careful about keeping 1 scout and my frosty from dying. Unless I get rushed, then unless they're really inept, it's probably curtains for me.

[Cuathon]

i turtle a lot and i find furgon turtles are very fun. the other guy doesnt know what to do at all! :cool:

[Office_Shredder]

I don't use a furgon in my turtle... I love playing against furgon turtles, because I suck using the furgon but it introduces a whole new level of skill into the game.... so I get that skill into the game by playing someone good with the furgon.

Ok, I don't actually suck with the furgie, I just don't have room :)

[Thargor]

even though my skill with furgons is only mediocre, I can't resist putting one in, they are so fun :)

[CRX687]

even though my skill with furgons is only mediocre, I can't resist putting one in, they are so fun :)

wurd.

Only problem is when ur opponent and u get into an argument over whether it's a super groundhog or bear.... i get into those a lot for some reason :confused:

[Office_Shredder]

Highly evolved porcupine with leaves instead of spines

[zzzaacckk]

I almost without exception use a furgon in all my turtles. Its a key element to turtle strategy I believe.

[bludhoundz]

In a turtle on turtle Furgon pawns two knights, while you scouts/frosty pick them off.
I don't attack with my knights. I rush in with my other units, and shrub to my advantage. I use my frosty well, etc... My knights are for the aftermath, heavy hitters who I can maybe stone to finish off my opponent, after I kill their frostie and wisp.

[sub the hendrix]

As a recently upgraded (well i guess im not that new anymore), I can say that furgon can be your best friend or worst enemy, and im talking about when it is on your side. I have lost to many experienced turtlers in my clan because i boxed myself in with my own furgon.

[zzzaacckk]

there is a time and plave for everything. Boxing yourself in generally is a last resort... you need to try to either use ur attacking units and attack and protect your rear with the frugon or even try boxing ur opponent in (its hard to do). *******these arent the only strategies to use furgons with********

[Realist]

I still don't think any of these sets can beat a good rush.

[TheBlazedAce]

I still don't think any of these sets can beat a good rush.

I'm definitly going to agree with realist on this one. None of these are going to beat a very well thought-out rush with a good player behind the wheel. What rushing basically does is bring a lot of luck back into the equation and that's all you can really work with. I use a spread formation against rushes that works sort of well, but it works a lot better if the opponent doesn't go straight for the cleric. It has a cleric, LW, frost, dragon, mud, 2 scouts, 2 knights. Still, assuming the opponent doesn't get too lucky I'll even beat the best rushers with this.

[Wayfaerer]

I still don't think any of these sets can beat a good rush.

I came pretty close, if only I got that nubby front hit!

Anyways I was thinking when I read the title of this thread why people even rush anymore. Since they were created to beat turtles and rules are almost always set before a match eliminating any chance of actually playing the turtle with a weakness.

Unless people think rush vs. rush is fun :rolleyes:

[sub the hendrix]

I dont thin rush vs. rush is fun, but thats just me. When fighting a rush with a turtle, you mu=ight find it valuable to get your furgon to establish some shrubs, because, if done right, it can force your opponent to funnel in their attackers, which gives you an advantage.

[monkus]

Hehe, zack, you say furgon's so important, and yet every time we play you rush in at me and don't use furgon at all >_<

I'm a huge furgon user, mainly because I enjoy playing defensively. I know how much people tell you to play aggressively and stuff, but I just like being defensive. I shrub up to slow down the attacks and isolate enemy units, and I paralyze and take them out one by one. That's how I beat zzzaacckk in bottle's league, and how I play most of my games. I find very few people who are really experts with furgon (bottle, achilles, blud, wayf), but I think it is really the greatest unit ever.

I hate rushes. I really do. But once we figure out how to beat them, the turtlers will strike back :cool:

[CRX687]

What rushing basically does is bring a lot of luck back into the equation and that's all you can really work with.

-_-... do we have to go over this again?

[TheBlazedAce]

-_-... do we have to go over this again?

At least agree there's a lot more luck involved in rush vs rush then in turtle vs. turtle!

[CRX687]

At least agree there's a lot more luck involved in rush vs rush then in turtle vs. turtle!

Not going to...

there's more luck in each individual game, but after a number of games, the luck evens out.

[TheBlazedAce]

Not going to...

there's more luck in each individual game, but after a number of games, the luck evens out.

This has nothing to do with whether or not the game is rush vs. rush or turtle vs turtle. What you say applies to everything. My point isn't that there is more lucky shots/unbelievable odds appearing in rushing then turtling. My point is that in turtles that lucky shot doesn't define the game as much. In rushing from the beggining (whether you go first or not) makes a large difference, not to mention how much more important it becomes because the cleric is often killed very fast so every block/hit counts so much more. It's often not about predicting ahead and calculating turns, but rather just hoping the next shot/attack hits. I'm not saying it doesn't occur in turtling, but rather that it occurs much less and thus rushing depends a lot more on luck then turtling does.

[Wayfaerer]

Turtles are meant to play turtles, rush's aren't made to play rushes so of course the way more games are won will be different.

Rush's aren't all that luck based until it gets down to those end game knight wars

[Bottle]

Coupla things.

Firstly, Helldead Reaper, you are right on every point you have made. :)

Secondly, Wayf, that anti-rush turtle you posted CAN have the cleric hit by a scout on turn 1, if the scout is on the front rank at the side of the board. Move up 4 spaces and hit the cleric, and you're pretty much screwed.

Thirdly, I've tried a number of anti-rush turts, and NONE of them can stop an ambusher and wisp and scout on the same side. This applies to EVERY turtle. It's simply not possible to block every line of attack with 9 units. Put a DSM on the other side with the muddie and scout, and you'll find it hard to protect your cleric. So the solution, as Helldead said, is not to use a cleric.

Here's the form I use when I know I'm facing a rush that's designed to kill cleric on turn 2.

http://img123.exs.cx/img123/5309/antirushnocleric1wr.jpg

Yes, it often comes down to a knight fight in the endgame. But with 3 knights, I make sure that I have more than the enemy, even if they have been slightly injured by wisp, muddie, scouts etc. 3 knights will beat most formations in the endgame except for other formations with 3 knights in, especially when you have a frostie at the back. This formation relies on outmuscling the opponent, which is pretty much all you can do against a clerickilling rush.

Notice the lack of places to wisp more than two units at a time, which is vital if you have no cleric. Those little bit of damage all add up. As such, the muddie is always amongst the first targets when using this formation. Taking down the enemy cleric helps too, but it's not vital. Take out the lightly armored units at the front first (the ones which were set up to kill the cleric ie. wisp, mud, ambusher, scouts) and then go for the cleric before aiming for any knights they might have. Leave the dragon unless it's causing MAJOR damage to you; it can be dealt with by the frosty at the end once the enemy's ranged attack is gone.

At the moment, the game seems to have returned to the rock-scissors-paper format that used to be the case with turtles, spreads and bombs, only now it's true turtle, rush and anti-rush. This is why I ask only for turtle games when I can. It's basically a question of who has the better formation at the start, and with very little emphasis on in-game play.

[bludhoundz]

(bottle, achilles, blud, wayf)
*is honored*
Yeah, but I know that Bottle is better with the furgon, Wayf and I are 1-1, and I've never played Ach.

I find that the best way to beat the rush is to rush. Don't get me wrong, I like turtling a little better (maybe because I win more), but rushing isn't boring to me.

[Bottle]

Blud, don't put yourself down. With a little more practise and training, you may soon outstrip your mentor :)

[zzzaacckk]

Bottle taht anti rush rush is pwning great work... lets try to find an anti rush turtle type thing or maybe the anti rush really needs to be a rush that is made to kill cleric killing rushes...

[Office_Shredder]

no rushes designed to beat rushes!

It still doesn't solve the craptastic turtle problem

[Bottle]

My anti-rush rush would die horribly to a turtle containing a furgon... and let's face it, it's not a great turtle without the furgy :)

[Office_Shredder]

so we need an anti with a furgon in it ;)

[Bottle]

How's this?

http://img215.exs.cx/img215/889/antirushturt4gn.jpg

Blocks everything but a same-side ambusher, scout AND wisp. (Switch back knight for muddie though, I took that screenie a while back). The only problem is that if you lose stone focus at a vital time or a scout, you're in trouble.

[Office_Shredder]

I tried that.... my only problem was that if you move your furgon, your cleric is open to the walled scout, so you need to shrub the LW gap, leaving the GA time to hit your cleric

[zzzaacckk]

that and the lack of teleporters makes that a vulnerable form.

[Office_Shredder]

zack, the middle knight is supposed to be a muddy

[Bottle]

I tried that.... my only problem was that if you move your furgon, your cleric is open to the walled scout, so you need to shrub the LW gap, leaving the GA time to hit your cleric
That's not really a problem. The GA is going to hit your cleric anyway if it's same side. A cleric on 4 can survive easily anyway if there's no muddie around and all scout LOS shots are blocked up. Just blast the busher, then snipe it a few times. If the busher recovers before it's dead, BW until it is dead. Continue to use the furgon to block up other ways in. If you can take down the ambusher without losing your cleric, and then get the muddie, you're normally going to win.

As for the lack of teleporters, you can't fit a dragon in that form, and having only 4 damage units one of which has 34 HP and no armor of blocking and has to be adjacent to a unit to damage it... well, bad idea. the muddy is useful as a distraction. Most people target it if you send it out to get the enemy muddie/ambusher, and you can use that time to stabilise your defenses and launch an attack on their danger units.

[Wayfaerer]

The wisp is probably the most important thing to keep from hitting your cleric first turn

[Bottle]

Depends. If there's no ambusher around, the cleric can take a hit from the wisp (along with 4 other units... very tempting for the opponent), have the wisp's focus broken, heal, and finish killing the wisp. Enemy is a unit down and you've taken 0 damage and used 2 extra turns.

If wisp and busher are same side, yes, you have a problem. But you can still just barrier the cleric, and shoot the wisp next turn.

[Wolfman]

Depends..... blah blah blah...

If wisp and busher are same side, yes, you have a problem. But you can still just barrier the cleric, and shoot the wisp next turn.

what if u hv wisp, ambusher, muddy, 2 scouts coming at u on the same side???

don answer this bot.... i know the answer.

The answer is:

Take a piss, light your cigarette n tell your opponent "good rush, good game"



wolfy

[actgfin1234]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Wolfman again.


hahahahaha

[actgfin1234]

wow...what was the neg rep for? lol

[Bottle]

what if u hv wisp, ambusher, muddy, 2 scouts coming at u on the same side???

don answer this bot.... i know the answer.

The answer is:

Take a piss, light your cigarette n tell your opponent "good rush, good game"



wolfy
And if it's opposite side, take a piss, light up your cigarette and say "Good rush, bad luck, good game" :cool:

[FryLock]

I've yet to see an anti-rush that can truely hold off a well-designed rush. If you've got the wisp, ambusher, and a scout on one side, there's no way the cleric survives, even with a BW. Most times, the ambusher is more to the center, so if the cleric's on the other side, the combo of scout, mud and ambusher gets him, albeit a turn or 2 later. If a good rusher knows what he's doing and has a good set, the guy in the anti will need some incredible luck, even if he himself is a very good player. It just doesn't work any other way...
I like Bottle's form, though I'm not sure what to call it. It's not an anti-rush, but neither is it a "true" rush. I suppose I'd call it an "anti-cleric kill" set. For whatever that's worth.

I wish the ambusher would leave the game. The wisp is a great strategic unit and lots of fun to use, in a turtle, rush, or otherwise. The ambusher requires no skill whatsoever, and its use is all based on luck (side hits, lucky positioning for cleric kill, etc).

[Bottle]

My form isn't designed to be a rush. Rushes are meant to thrive against a turtle; mine would flounder, unless it got first turn and DSM same-side, and believe me it's fully intended to flounder against turtlers. I don't want to put off the people who turtle, just the people who try to beat up on turtlers :)

[FryLock]

Oh, I know, I'm just trying to figure out what to call it. Because that matters so much...anyway I suppose it could be called an anti...I'm just used to seeing antis as looking much more defensive.

[Rogue_Wolf]

My Anti-Rush (http://img203.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img203&image=booyah40pw.jpg)

It wins about 75%-80% of the time. Got FryLock, the best rusher I know of, down to 4 units when going second turn, and would have won if gone first.

Immune to Wisp fairly well. The Cleric can only get poisoned if the Wisp is in one of two spots on the board. And if the Wisp is in one of those spots, if it tries to hit the Cleric, it will only hit the Cleric, leaving my other units free of poison.

Its resistant to Pyros well. Only one spot where you can really get a good hit(And to get that hit, you must sacrifice the Pyro), but the risk is worth it since disabling the Wisp to an extent is a better choice.

The DSM is there for a nice initial blow, or a early cleric burn which happens quite frequently, which is odd since its not in the normal Cleric killing position.

The only major weakness it has is LoS blocking for my Cleric. Its more vulnerable than I'd like it to be. To fix that, sub the Dragon for 2 Knights, and take out the DSM for something else(Preferrably Wisp). But the Dragon works best for me out of all my units, so there's no way I'm subbin' him.

The one I have a scrn shot of is a mix of my offensive and defensive forms. For offense, sub the LWard for a Knight. For Defense, sub the GA for a Frosty.

-Rogue_Wolf

[FryLock]

Got FryLock, the best rusher I know of, down to 4 units when going second turn, and would have won if gone first.


Pish tosh! I still would have gotten you! My golems can block, you know. Would have made it a lot closer, though. :p

[Rogue_Wolf]

Aye. But you know, killing a cleric first turn is like going into a fight without the use of your arms. You can still win, but you have to have a hard head ^^

-Rogue_Wolf

[FryLock]

Oh come now...ask anyone here, they'll tell you I'm as hard-headed as they come.

What...? It's not a compliment, you say? B-b-b-but...

In any case, I said "pish tosh" and I stand by it. Arms are overrated.

[Bottle]

Arms are overrated.
That needs to go in someone's sig... too bad mine is full :(

[sub the hendrix]

I think that a key problem with anti-rushes is that there needs to be an established goal... what are they trying to achieve? A rush is there to take out cleric first and foremost. A turtle tries to shave away an enemies units one at a time, while keeping its own losses at a minimum. Besides beating it, what is an anti-rush trying to do to a rush? What kind of game are you trying to play with it?

[Office_Shredder]

Usually it's a turtle with a furgy.

[BlackSyphon]

in a rush, your goal is to kill the greatest threat. But in the nature of such a formation, they have too many high threat pieces, and so close, that its very hard to effectively deal with all of them.

du

[CRX687]

Wuffy's anti-rush rocks... punked me today...

we both made some nub moves though...

[Terps rock]

That needs to go in someone's sig... too bad mine is full :(

got ya covered

[cokeman]

got ya covered

Nothing can stop a rush if the guy knows what he's doing

[Terps rock]

um well there is this pyro pirate that could i saw him in a banner

[Wayfaerer]

Nothing can stop a rush if the guy knows what he's doing

Well that explains why your rush lost :)

[bludhoundz]

Blud, don't put yourself down. With a little more practise and training, you may soon outstrip your mentor
Oh my god. Bottle...I hope you are joking. If you aren't, I've caught you being modest :cool:

Edit : Against a lesser player, turt on turt with their ambusher up front (power turtle) and they kill my cleric, I still beat them.

I learned how to play without a cleric semi-decently, you cannot play defensively, but you have to be incredibly careful with your offense. In turtles, where cleric is very important, your best weapons are the wisp and furgon, because you can deal large amounts of damage, and control the field to your liking.

Anyway, back on topic..

Antis and turtles can work against rushers, but that is because of two things
A.) The rusher's skill/luck (none in this case usually)
B.) The rush is designed to take on only other rushes.

I know that if you caught my rush on the wrong side, your turtle could possibly win...wouldn't be easy though :)

I think an antirush usually shouldn't have a dragon, because it takes up two attacking spots, and I find the frosty an almost vital unit for an anti, and maybe a bw + furgy. But there are antis which just use a lot of attackers same side, which is pretty much a one-sided rush

Props to orlandy...the inventor of the antirush !

[Terps rock]

:eek: *SHOCK*

[MANSLAUGHTER1]

I use to use anti-rushes against rushers but once the GA came out I just couldn't figure out a good anti.

[Wolfman]

Props to orlandy...the inventor of the antirush !

lol.... i don think orlandy invented the anti-rush.... even when orlandy was grey.... we in outkast were playing anti-rushes already (puni, snarr, mikey, mar, wolf)... n i am quite sure it is not orlandy.

it may be puni who invented the anti-rush... his anti-rush was one of the best among us.

wolfy

[Bridgie Cuddles]

http://img231.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img231&image=theantirush4vf.jpg

[zzzaacckk]

furgon is WAY too open to attack there and as soon as you move it the scout is in danger.

[Terps rock]

why do we need an anti-rush again

[bludhoundz]

For people who don't like to rush.

[da1n]

here's a nice one:
http://img174.exs.cx/img174/4421/tacticsarenaform25bc.jpg :cool:

[Wayfaerer]

You should get someone good at rushing like ~De@thwi$h~ to test that one out :cool:

[FryLock]

He tried it on me (I think it was you as a grey? Otherwise, someone on Legends has the exact same setup) and I was able to overcome it. However, I was luckily in a form suited to combat it, a corner form with mud and frost. I imagine that if it faced a rush, it could do allright...though on these servers, any freezer bomb is going to be more difficult to use because of the 2 scouts.

[Bottle]

Any freeze bomb at all isn't going to be very easy to use, especially if you have no damage units. All the opponent has to do is spread out and take down the chanties quickly.

[sub the hendrix]

Agreed. Also, that many chanties just get in the way of each other, much as 10 knights would. 10 frost golems would work better, but still wouldnt be great since you couldnt lose even one of them to win the game.

[monkus]

Not true match. You get a number of losses, depending on your opponent's form. 1 for the cleric, 1 if they have an lward, and against turtles, 1 for furgon, 1 for stonie, etc.

[Bottle]

Well, you could get a draw that way monkus, but not the win.

[BlackSyphon]

7 frosties, 1 cleric, 1 BW and a scout...might do the trick...

du

[CRX687]

7 frosties, 1 cleric, 1 BW and a scout...might do the trick...

du

depends on what the have... but 5 chanties, 1 frost, 2 scouts, cleric, and Bward works quite well... against rushes at least.

Turtlers can just shurb off, and use bushy to pick things as they come close.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I was going to suggest a number of paralyze-based units, but I see that's done.

Try this...

1. Pyromancer x2
3. Cleric
4. Enchantress
5. Poison Wisp
6. Frost Golem
7. Furgon
8. Barrier Ward
9. Scout x2

Use the Furgon and paralysis guys to drag units in and hold them down... I have seen KILLER furgon/Frost Golem combos work late in the game with just one or two Scouts to pick off the opponent.... Use the Poison Wisp to hold the enemies down and do constant damage and use the Pyromancers/Scouts to pick them off when they're weak. Barrier ward EITHER the Poison Wisp while it weakens enemies OR the Frost Golem/Enchantress to keep the enemies in place while you kill their units. Prepare for an extended battle--this will only work if you remain patient and kill only a couple units at a time (otherwise you may bite off more than you can chew, and lose terribly). This strategy is dependant on your ability to either prevent damage or recover from it without heavy losses, so if you suck at that, stick to your old strat.

[Bottle]

I can't see it working against a good rusher. Furgies are your best friend if you want to slow the enemy down, but a well-timed mudquake can ruin it all in one moment. As for only having 5 damage units, all with less than 40 HP and no armor and little blocking, I doubt you'll even be able to hold off an attacker if you do manage to slow them down. Wisps are good, but only if they have some heavy backup to finish off units... without that, the enemy will move away, then attack the wisp and it'll be on 12 HP after a knight attack with still 1 recovery left.

Knights backed up by muddie and scouts would eat that set of units for breakfast, no matter what the formation. And they wouldn't even have to rush, because it would make more sense to slow it down themselves and attack with all 9 units at once. Unless the enemy has no cleric (ie. is an antirush itself) you won't be able to kill anything with your limited firepower, unless you expose your own units.

[RKO21]

EDIT: Cleared!

[Lonely Tylenol]

I can't see it working against a good rusher. Furgies are your best friend if you want to slow the enemy down, but a well-timed mudquake can ruin it all in one moment. As for only having 5 damage units, all with less than 40 HP and no armor and little blocking, I doubt you'll even be able to hold off an attacker if you do manage to slow them down. Wisps are good, but only if they have some heavy backup to finish off units... without that, the enemy will move away, then attack the wisp and it'll be on 12 HP after a knight attack with still 1 recovery left.

The formation wasn't designed for a full-on rush, merely for an "instant kill" or so. The Poison Wisp doesn't actually paralyze units, but it does keep them still while they are slowly damaged. The Scouts and Pyromancers should never have to see actual battle, but merely pick off the paralyzed units one-by-one. The reason Scouts and Pyromancers were chosen is because they have the most versatile attacks in terms of range (Scout has the single longest range in the game, which is what made a second one Gold-worthy to begin with). If your damage units ever have to face a full-frontal assault, chances are you're doing it wrong to begin with.

Unless the enemy has no cleric (ie. is an antirush itself) you won't be able to kill anything with your limited firepower, unless you expose your own units.

Poison Wisp/Barrier Ward, finish off the weakened enemies with pyromancers.

This is intended to be somewhat of a turtle, based on the same philosophy that drives the grey turtle--Enchantress/BW combo--only this one has more of a capability to paralyze. Knights in the grey turtle were never used to fight units SO MUCH as they were used as a wall, which is precisely what the Furgon should be used for. The intent of this strategy is to isolate a few units at a time in waves, thus breaking up the enemies' firepower, and holding the units down as you finish them off with the attacking units you have.

We'll never know until someone tests it out though... Theory and practice are two different things. Man, I wish I could go gold.

[Bottle]

In other words, forget the Furgon. You're going to need attackers for late in the game, and the Furgon is not an answer. This also goes for Barrier Wards.

4. If you still like using your Wisp, then use it and a Mud Golem to wear down any units that get too close, Scouts included. Your Dragon can always clean up weakened units.

That being said, an offensive anti-rush turtle would have:

Cleric x 1
Stone Golem x 1 (stoned)
Dragon Tyrant x 1 (stoned)
Lightning Ward x 1
Scout x 2 (1 x stoned)
Frost Golem x 1
Mud Golem x 1 (stoned)
Knight x 1

...and a defensive anti-rush turtle would have:

Cleric x 1
Stone Golem x 1 (stoned)
Lightning Ward x 1
Scout x 2 (1 x stoned)
Mud Golem x 1 (stoned)
Frost Golem x 1
Poison Wisp x 1 (stoned)
Knight x 2

Hope this helps! Good Luck! :D
A couple of things;

1. Do not reject out of hand the furgon. I said he was useless with the muddie around? So kill the muddie and shrub up. Nothing else will get through except teleporters and LOS shots, so make ample use of your frosty as you said, watching LOS shots, and pick off the enemy. Try to get their cleric, especially if your firepower is limited, as an anti-rush's usually is.

2. The wisp is an endgame unit. Use it at the start and a scout will snipe it; it then has 16 HP (21 if stoned), 2 recovery, and no blocking. In other words, it's dead even if it's stoned. Therefore, if you're using it (and I wouldn't recommend it), kill the scouts as a matter of course. It works well too with a furgon, by either trapping poisoned units, or retreating behind a shrub wall when its focus is broken. Do not send it against knights unless they have no support and are in recovery, and do not send it into densely populated areas.

3. Your antirushes have no formation description, which is the vital thing, and only 4 units stoned when you could have 5. Having a DT means one less attacking unit, which means less ability to form a wall, which means cleric = dead. LWs are a waste of space in ANY gold game; don't use them. A sensible enemy won't go near them unless it's to kill the cleric.

1. The Poison Wisp doesn't actually paralyze units, but it does keep them still while they are slowly damaged.

2. The Scouts and Pyromancers should never have to see actual battle, but merely pick off the paralyzed units one-by-one.

3. The reason Scouts and Pyromancers were chosen is because they have the most versatile attacks in terms of range (Scout has the single longest range in the game, which is what made a second one Gold-worthy to begin with).

4. This is intended to be somewhat of a turtle, based on the same philosophy that drives the grey turtle--Enchantress/BW combo--only this one has more of a capability to paralyze.

5. Knights in the grey turtle were never used to fight units SO MUCH as they were used as a wall, which is precisely what the Furgon should be used for.

6. The intent of this strategy is to isolate a few units at a time in waves, thus breaking up the enemies' firepower, and holding the units down as you finish them off with the attacking units you have.

7. We'll never know until someone tests it out though... Theory and practice are two different things. Man, I wish I could go gold.
1. Except if they move away from the poison, or if the wisp gets shot before you can barrier it. Also, keeping the wisp within 6 spaces of the BW while keeping the BW out of sniping/quaking range will be tough.

2. Good players won't allow themselves to be paralysed. They won't allow their scouts to be got at, and use the scouts to break focus immediately after the poison/freeze attack, just like in the grey game. And believe me, golds have SO much firepower that you will ALWAYS see at least 20 melee attacks made in a gold rush game.

3. Scouts are blockable, so knights and scout will NEVER die unless they're paralysed (which again they won't be), and pyros have a 4 space range, 3 recovery and die in 2 or 3 hits regardless of healing. Not a good combination.

4. But you know how hard it is to beat a gold with a grey, right? The 2 scouts make almost any paralysis attempt impossible. And with that firepower, you certainly won't kill the scouts.

5. You obviously don't play the grey game the right way. :) (And furgons will be useless if there's a muddie around.)

6. I doubt you'll slow him down enough. It's going to take several hundred turns to kill 9 combat units anyway, with only a furgon and a few paralysers to hold off the enemy knights, mud, scouts, dragon, and DSM.

7. Until you do go gold, I advise against commenting on gold matches. THEY ARE RADICALLY DIFFERENT TO GREY MATCHES.

Sorry about the length of this post.

[RKO21]

EDIT: Cleared!

[Bottle]

I'm sorry, I don't agree with any of that post, but I don't have time to reply to it either.

I shall reply tomorrow.

[RKO21]

EDIT: Cleared!

[FryLock]

LW may be handy in turtle vs. turtle, but it's the foolish person who puts it in as an attempted rush defense. Only once in a great while will you get lucky enough to take out a 1st turn mage with it, and more often than not, it'll just get in your own way. The only turtle I have ever seen come close to beating a good rush is Wayfaerer's turtle, and he only uses it if his opponent agrees not to use the ambusher. With the ambusher, mud, 2 scouts, and dragon banging on the door, a turtle will simply crumble.

Greys who know nothing about gold tactics - please stop posting here until you learn something. Your ideas are all poorly thought out and impractical.

[Lonely Tylenol]

5. You obviously don't play the grey game the right way. (And furgons will be useless if there's a muddie around.)

I obviously play it well enough to be over 1100 and climbing.

By the way, to quote further up in your own post...

1. Do not reject out of hand the furgon. I said he was useless with the muddie around? So kill the muddie and shrub up.

Please try and be consistent with your lessons.

6. I doubt you'll slow him down enough. It's going to take several hundred turns to kill 9 combat units anyway, with only a furgon and a few paralysers to hold off the enemy knights, mud, scouts, dragon, and DSM.

It's a turtle. THINK. You wouldn't send turtle units to implement a rush, would you?

7. Until you do go gold, I advise against commenting on gold matches. THEY ARE RADICALLY DIFFERENT TO GREY MATCHES.

I learned the gold game pretty well from my entire time post-return fighting golds. I have challenged any and every gold willing to fight me, and thus got enough fights out of it to know what goes where and how exactly everything can be used.

Exception, of course, being turtles. I have little to no experience playing a decent turtle. In fact, I've come to loathe the very concept because they're such a pain in the rump for rushes. I MUCH prefer thinking up gold mage bombs, because, you know, bombing is something I can actually wrap my fingers around. This is, to tell you the truth, my first attempt at a gold turtle, mostly because I've been avoiding them for so long. I much prefer DSM mage bombs. Mmmmm. With a Poison Wisp. And two Pyromancers. And Witches... Yes... Ooh, I love my bombs. That's what I'm going to make if I go gold. An all-out bomb with pyroes jacked up on Tryant/Stone Golems... Now I just gotta figure out how PayPal works... :p

Anyway, back to the subject. You can rag on this strat all you want. Some of the units are flexible--case in point, the Pyromancers--but the Furgon, Frostie, Poison Wisp, and Scouts are solid where they are. The concept was to defend your units by paralyzing whatever rush units are thrown at you, and kill them while they're on your turf, pretty much defenseless. I'm defending the concept, not the strategy itself (I'm just using the strategy to defend the concept).

[BlackSyphon]

i am a gray, and I think all golds stink.

fry doesn't even know how to heal...click on ONE of the red squares...instead he clicks on the red sqaure with a X through the middle...he then say...damn I got d/c..

bottle? the kid is dellusional...everybody knw that when there are two scouts, you can press the power button on your comp and you won't see them again...jeez, you guys THINK!

du

[monkus]

I obviously play it well enough to be over 1100 and climbing.

To be 1100 is easy nowadays. I could get to 1100 gray using the default formation. To be a really good gray, you have to beat other really good grays, so don't quote some stats.


On the topic of furgons:
Don't ever reject the furgon as a tactical unit. Against The Thrasher, an excellent player, I killed his muddy and dsm early on by sacrificing a scout and knight respectively, then my furgon whooped his ass :D




I learned the gold game pretty well from my entire time post-return fighting golds. I have challenged any and every gold willing to fight me, and thus got enough fights out of it to know what goes where and how exactly everything can be used.

No offense, but that isn't enough at all. You don't know the proper use of the units until you use them. I was the same way you were when I was gray, and going gold was a huuuge shock. You'd be surprised.


Exception, of course, being turtles. I have little to no experience playing a decent turtle. In fact, I've come to loathe the very concept because they're such a pain in the rump for rushes. I MUCH prefer thinking up gold mage bombs, because, you know, bombing is something I can actually wrap my fingers around. This is, to tell you the truth, my first attempt at a gold turtle, mostly because I've been avoiding them for so long. I much prefer DSM mage bombs. Mmmmm. With a Poison Wisp. And two Pyromancers. And Witches... Yes... Ooh, I love my bombs. That's what I'm going to make if I go gold. An all-out bomb with pyroes jacked up on Tryant/Stone Golems... Now I just gotta figure out how PayPal works... :p

The very fact that you plan on using the stone golem proves your inexperience.


Anyway, back to the subject. You can rag on this strat all you want. Some of the units are flexible--case in point, the Pyromancers--but the Furgon, Frostie, Poison Wisp, and Scouts are solid where they are. The concept was to defend your units by paralyzing whatever rush units are thrown at you, and kill them while they're on your turf, pretty much defenseless. I'm defending the concept, not the strategy itself (I'm just using the strategy to defend the concept).

The Poison wisp is the most flexible unit in the game. It can be used as an attacking unit (deal 8 damage, possibly more), it can be used as a mini muddie (breaking focus and doing minor damage to many units), it can paralyze trapped attackers, it can stop an attacking unit from actually attacking, it can damage paralyzed units, and a number of other things. The scout is also extremely versitile, having the attack strength to be used for brute force, the range and accuracy to be used in precision strikes, the health and blocking to be used for walling, etc. Pyromancers are too reckless to be used effectively on the defense (too much damage), too weak to be used to kill attacking units, and have too little hp and blocking to maintain walls and to be relied on for defensive purposes. They also have too little hp to be relied on for the attack, as well as a lack of damage. Even with a dsm, they're way too vulnerable to be flexible.

On the topic of the strategies of a turtle, it's much more complicated than that. The idea is not just to kill paralyzed units, it is to separate and deal with attacking units one by one, or at least halt the flow of attackers so they can be more easily managed. Try to understand gold strategy a little more before you get into these big battles with Bottle.

[Terps rock]

then my furgon whooped his ass :D

right i bet it hit 100 damage

jp i know what u mean they mess me up enough to use one in turtles

[Lonely Tylenol]

To be 1100 is easy nowadays. I could get to 1100 gray using the default formation. To be a really good gray, you have to beat other really good grays, so don't quote some stats.

I can name three off the top of my mind.... Let's see... Expert (before last wipe), enchanter (after last wipe), !@# (after last wipe). But since then !@# has given all his stats away and quit the game. I've also beaten a bunch of late-nighters, and lots of others I won't bother naming. Mostly because the late-nighters are pretty much nameless to me.

Don't ever reject the furgon as a tactical unit. Against The Thrasher, an excellent player, I killed his muddy and dsm early on by sacrificing a scout and knight respectively, then my furgon whooped his ass

I'd pay off the next month of your Gold if you showed me a Furgon killing someone.

No offense, but that isn't enough at all. You don't know the proper use of the units until you use them. I was the same way you were when I was gray, and going gold was a huuuge shock. You'd be surprised.

I've helped turn new golds into good rushers/bombers with strategies I wrote up by judging the stats and how they'd apply.

The very fact that you plan on using the stone golem proves your inexperience.

Don't you use a Stone Golem?

Stone Golem's good for bombs. A Pyromancer/DSM is strong with the Dragon Tyrant, but with 33% blocking, 0 armor, and 30 HP, they get useless, and FAST. Unless you can find a serious way to preserve your pyromancers/DSM long enough to leave a serious impact, There's little point in even trying to implement a bomb. With a Stone Golem, the Knight does only 15 damage to a Pyromancer, which means it can live three attacks after a heal, which is long enough to rip through the Knight like old toilet paper.

Keeps those Wisps alive too, if you plan on using a Wisp for more than just a few turns, Stoning it helps.

Pyromancers are too reckless to be used effectively on the defense (too much damage), too weak to be used to kill attacking units, and have too little hp and blocking to maintain walls and to be relied on for defensive purposes. They also have too little hp to be relied on for the attack, as well as a lack of damage. Even with a dsm, they're way too vulnerable to be flexible.

Which is why the pyromancers can leave. Whenever I write a strategy down on paper for this sort of thing, I write [FLEXIBLE] next to its name if it is expendible. Expendible units, as the name implies, are not absolutely necessary. The slots they take up are flexible, they can be used for other things if the situation calls for it. The Scouts and the Wisp, however, are [SOLID] units, which means that regardless of how I change the strat, THEY stay. For instance, whenever I write out a new grey form, I immediately take note to write [SOLID] with the Knights and one Cleric, and [FLEXIBLE] for the other Cleric and units I don't necessarily need (Assassin, duplicate units, et cetera). Solid slots don't change; thus, the Scouts and Wisp are solid, whereas the pyromancers are flexible.

By the way, when they're stoned and DSM-powered, pyroes ROCK. :D

The idea is not just to kill paralyzed units, it is to separate and deal with attacking units one by one, or at least halt the flow of attackers so they can be more easily managed.

[Ahem] Already covered that...

The Poison Wisp doesn't actually paralyze units, but it does keep them still while they are slowly damaged. The Scouts and Pyromancers should never have to see actual battle, but merely pick off the paralyzed units one-by-one. The reason Scouts and Pyromancers were chosen is because they have the most versatile attacks in terms of range (Scout has the single longest range in the game, which is what made a second one Gold-worthy to begin with). If your damage units ever have to face a full-frontal assault, chances are you're doing it wrong to begin with.

In a nutshell....

Furgon's purpose: Isolate some units from others
Frost Golem/Poison Wisp's purpose: Hold down isolated units
Scout/other damage unit's purpose: Kill isolated units

Hope that clears THAT up.

[BlackSyphon]

I think a stoney with 3 knights and 2 scouts, muddy, wisp, and frosty would do decently. I can't fire up TAO on my comp now..sooooo....


[c][s][f][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][r][w][r][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][m][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][k][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][k][k][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]


k=knight
c=cleric
s=stoney
r=scout
w=wisp
m=muddy
f=frosty

du

[FryLock]

LT-

You write down ideas?

You have a system?

You actually put this much effort into a GAME???

That's just about the cutest and funniest thing I've ever heard on these forums.

And for all that, your grasp of "strategy" is significantly short of actually being effective. When / if you go gold, I will be more than happy to rip your stoned bomb apart.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You write down ideas?

You have a system?

You actually put this much effort into a GAME???

Average thinking process involved in thinking up ideas--45 seconds per idea
Average time it takes to jot down unit placement--30 seconds per idea
Average time it takes to implement "a system"--5 seconds out of said 30 seconds per idea

Boy oh boy, I'm sure gonna miss that 0:01:15 I invested in thinking up a form idea! Oh, Lordy Lord, how can I ever find a way to compensate for that complete and utter waste of precious time in my life that I shamelessly WASTED in coming up with this strategy idea? :rolleyes: Boy, Frylock, you sure called me on THAT one!

I'd be willing to bet that it takes me about the same time to jot unit placement down as it takes you to actually place the units. Posting it probably takes even less time than it takes to screenshot the unit placement, load Paint/ImageReady and save the image, find an image host, save the image, get the link, THEN post it here. And unlike you, I don't spend any money in the process!

Oh, Lordy Lord, somebody save me from this piteous shell I call a LIFE, left in shambles from the minute and fifteen seconds it took to jot down an idea and post it on a gaming forum! Oh, mercy, mercy me!

Ah, but never you fear, Frylock! For while I am sitting at home alone on Saturday night, trying to imagine what it must be like to have a girlfriend and sulking over how much my life stinks, I shall remember with great sorrow the 0:01:15 it took me to jot down a strategy idea, and will keep in mind the life-altering words it took you at least 0:01:15 to write exclaiming how much of a fool I am for wasting that minute and a quarter ON this idea, and then I'll think to myself... Wait! There IS hope! I can change my life around! Instead of implementing a system and WRITING down ideas, thus wasting seventy-five seconds of my life with each strategy I write, I can pay $5 a month to get special units, get a new computer that will allow me to access sites that allow me to post these screenshots, then spend ninety seconds per idea SCREENSHOTTING the images! It may take more time and resources to do it this way, but look! You can SEE the units! Ohh, mercy on my pitiful soul, how could I ever have been so foolish?

.....

Well, that was fun. :p

I would have neg-repped you for your arrogance if I didn't have so much fun writing that out. Thanks!

your grasp of "strategy" is significantly short of actually being effective.

It was the concept of it, most of the units in that strategy were expendible. The concept involved the following:

1. Isolate some units from others
2. Hold down isolated units
3. Kill isolated units

Keep those guidelines in mind when fighting a rush and you SHOULD be able to do fairly well.

When / if you go gold, I will be more than happy to rip your stoned bomb apart.

Aren't you on Armageddon?

Don't hold your breath...

[FryLock]

A bunch of words, followed by

Well, that was fun. :p

I would have neg-repped you for your arrogance if I didn't have so much fun writing that out. Thanks!


:rolleyes:
Thanks for making my point for me.

I'm on Banff, I have access to a GL gold, and of course, there's always Rev. So if you want to stone up a DSM and some pyros, I bet you can find me.

I'm glad you feel the 1:15 or whatever you spend writing your lil' ideas down pays off. I bet it took you significantly longer to write your tirade.

*sigh* Kids today...

[Lonely Tylenol]

I bet it took you significantly longer to write your tirade.

Bet it took you significantly longer to read it as well. ;) If you wasted all your time reading that, convinced that I wasted time with my form concept, then took additional time to reply to it, then you need to get your priorities straight. I'm having fun with this. Unlike last time, I'm not in a pissant mood. As I am about 87.5% of the time, I'm content, somewhat relaxed. The idea, the discussion, even fencing rhetoric over a pointless and meager seventy-five seconds, even though it's taken BOTH of us a lot more than 1:15 to type this all out. If you can't enjoy this, then you're wasting more time and effort with it than I, which only makes this situation ironic and amusing for me.

If I ever should go gold, remember to give me, oh, I dunno, a few days to settle in to the lack of Knights and whatnot involved. And remember, have fun with it.

[BlackSyphon]

*sigh* Kids today...

whats that supposed to mean?

du :eek:

[RKO21]

EDIT: Cleared!

[monkus]

I'd pay off the next month of your Gold if you showed me a Furgon killing someone.

It depends what you mean by killing someone. I can show you a picture of a game where I clearly win simply because of a furgon if you'd like, but I doubt you'll pay for my gold :p



Don't you use a Stone Golem?

Stone Golem's good for bombs. A Pyromancer/DSM is strong with the Dragon Tyrant, but with 33% blocking, 0 armor, and 30 HP, they get useless, and FAST. Unless you can find a serious way to preserve your pyromancers/DSM long enough to leave a serious impact, There's little point in even trying to implement a bomb. With a Stone Golem, the Knight does only 15 damage to a Pyromancer, which means it can live three attacks after a heal, which is long enough to rip through the Knight like old toilet paper.

Keeps those Wisps alive too, if you plan on using a Wisp for more than just a few turns, Stoning it helps.


I use stone golem in a turtle. Stone golem has almost no applicable use in a bomb.
What you say about armor is correct, but what you don't do is account for KEEPING that armor. You could either stone your pyros in the back of the field, in which case any opponent will have much too much time to attack them and pick them off from afar, or at least prepare for the attack. Or, you could stone them up front, in which case it's easy to take out the stone w/ a scout shot, and you essentially lose a unit.

[343 HeadHunter]

Well i think you should all just stop looking for the "lightsaber" because once you find one....us rushers will just find a way to beat it :)

[greendaybum5]

from my experience, punisher is the only one to beat me with an anti rush, however monkus has a few good ones also, if punisher wants to post his rushes are doomed

[Bottle]

Well, I would like to reply to about 16 things said in the past page, but I've already made a mega-post on this thread so...

If you're not gold, stop commenting on gold matches.

You have NO IDEA.

When I went gold, back in the days when the chanty was just something that died in 2 hits and didn't do anything at all :rolleyes:, the prevalent formation for greys was a 2-clerics, 2- or 3- witch turtle form with knights and scout. It relied on outlasting the opponent and dealing big damage. Then I went gold, and thought "right, time to break out the 3 stoned knights with 55 armor, nothing will beat me". First game I played was against a furgon player. I lost HORRIBLY.

Gold turtles, indeed almost any gold game, is SO different from grey that you might as well have them as different games.

I've no doubt you think your formation would work. But believe us, we've got 5000+ games' experience. It wouldn't. 5 damage units with no greater power than 18 will NOT win you a gold game, especially if they're not armored.

And if you want to see my furgon killing someone, I can find my old screenshot of where I had 2 scouts, frost, stone, cleric and furgy vs. stone, 3 knights, dragon and 2 scouts. I won without losing another unit. I doubt you'll see just 2 scouts, stone, cleric and a frosty killing 3 stoned knights, stoned dragon, and 2 scouts.

[Lonely Tylenol]

It depends what you mean by killing someone. I can show you a picture of a game where I clearly win simply because of a furgon if you'd like, but I doubt you'll pay for my gold

Nah, nah, I believe you. You put me through enough punishment with that blasted Furgon of yours. :p

What you say about armor is correct, but what you don't do is account for KEEPING that armor. You could either stone your pyros in the back of the field, in which case any opponent will have much too much time to attack them and pick them off from afar, or at least prepare for the attack. Or, you could stone them up front, in which case it's easy to take out the stone w/ a scout shot, and you essentially lose a unit.

Stone them in back and keep a Wisp/Frostie ready for any units that try get in the way of your armor keeping. (Or for a much simpler solution, just BW the Stone Golem.)

I have seen the stone golem/DSM strategy tested in practice with a fellow clan member of mine and it passed with flying colors. Hence my confidence in it.

EDIT: Ugh. Bottle. You just don't quit.

I've no doubt you think your formation would work. But believe us, we've got 5000+ games' experience. It wouldn't. 5 damage units with no greater power than 18 will NOT win you a gold game, especially if they're not armored.

Let me say this for a third time. SOME UNITS ARE EXPENDIBLE. I posted the units to get the CONCEPT of it. Weaken and paralyze units and then pick them off with range attackers of something else. For cripe's sakes, if it's THAT important, replace the two Pyromancers with a Dragon. What do I care? I'm simply pointing out the plausibility of THE CONCEPT. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR SKULL. THE STRAT MAY SUCK, BUT THE CONCEPT WORKS.

Next time you want to rag on me, make sure it isn't already old news.

Oh, yeah.

And if you want to see my furgon killing someone, I can find my old screenshot of where I had 2 scouts, frost, stone, cleric and furgy vs. stone, 3 knights, dragon and 2 scouts. I won without losing another unit. I doubt you'll see just 2 scouts, stone, cleric and a frosty killing 3 stoned knights, stoned dragon, and 2 scouts.

The Furgon thing was a JOKE. J-O-K-E. Learn to take one.

I've no doubt you think your formation would work. But believe us, we've got 5000+ games' experience. It wouldn't.

Listen, I didn't start playing the day before I started posting here. I remember the W/L/D system. I remember when DSM was the center-stage unit and the Furgon was just a competition event. I'd be willing to vouch that I have four digits' worth in battles as well (so before trying to flaunt yours, think twice). Even AFTER I last came back in December '04, and there were all these new units (Golem Ambusher/Poison Wisp) and new attacks (Assassin Bomb/Mud Quake), I am still fully capable of playing the game and understanding the concepts of it.

I think the thing you fail to understand all this time is BEING gold is not a requirement for UNDERSTANDING it. I give my gold clan members advice when they are new to it, and it pays off for them. There are two MAJOR exceptions to this rule that golds hold the monopoly of understanding of how the gold game "works".

1. Good greys. Any good grey with enough experience under his belt could understand how a unit works and what placement is viable for it. Heck, even a newbie grey could learn the gold game by playing enough gold games and seeing how the golds use their units, or getting enough practice by a few good people (I.E. inter-clan fights) to understand how they use the units. Come on, you claim to be good. Surely you must understand what I'm talking about--or have you never actually fought a grey capable of learning the game? Interesting concept Darwin thought up, called "Adaptation". Basically, what it means is, when around new and different things, you learn to adjust to it, "adapt" to it, and then you will be more comfortable with your new settings and will be able to work with them easier. Sure, I fight golds for recreation, but do you think I never learned anything from fighting them?

2. Bad golds. Bad golds have no concept of how to work the game. They'll Stone their Clerics for protection and think the Assassin Bomb is "Hip" and "1337" in the grey game. (Please, for future reference, if you see me using anything other than proper English again, kill me.) Any gold incapable of properly utilizing their units to win against opponents consistently is considered a "bad gold" and in most cases has no real understanding of the gold game. Bad golds typically involve noobs, with their inhibited capabilities to learn the functions of the game, and new golds, with their general lack of experience in the game in its entirety (generally, someone that just started playing for awhile and then went straight to Gold).

Two exceptions to your fanciful little rule.

Oh, yes, and here's a big Post-Script: The concept of the strategy is what I was touching down on, not the strategy itself. If you [actually] read the last page of this thread, you would easily take note of the fact that I myself denounced some of the actual units in the strategy by saying that their slots were expendible, and that it wasn't the strategy itself, but the concept of it that I was trying to apply to an anti-rush strategy.

So you can cut the "I'm-superior" act. This is supposed to be a friendly exchange of opinions. You don't see me bashing yours.

[FryLock]

Blabbity blah, lookit me go!

Speaking of wasting time... :rolleyes:

How long does it take you to make one of those quasi-intellectual defenses? I wonder if anyone will even bother reading it...

[actgfin1234]

*ACHOOO!*

Sorry, I'm allergic to retard.

[Lonely Tylenol]

*ACHOOO!*

Sorry, I'm allergic to retard.

Then shoot yourself and put you out of your misery. :) Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[actgfin1234]

You should have waited a bit, and thought of something funny.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You should have waited a bit, and thought of something funny.

Probably would have been smart of me. :p Anyway... Huh... I guess I'm out of this thread, for now. I'll post any other ideas if I get any, and don't worry, I won't expect positive results. Hahah... Keep working on finding that lightsaber... Or... Whatever. G'luck, all.

[RKO21]

EDIT: Cleared!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Anyways, just bomb...you'll find it much easier play rushes with.

Wasn't the idea to NOT use a rush/bomb?

[RKO21]

EDIT: Cleared!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Good point.

[Bottle]

I'm not trying to attack you, LT. I'm merely pointing out that you can't be expected to have as good a tactical awareness of the gold game if you've only played grey, compared to sdomeone with 5000+ GOLD-GOLD matches under their belt.

In any case, if you're playing a good rusher, you'd have to be very lucky to beat it with only 3 or 4 damage units and some paralysers and BW, especially if unstoned. It is simply not possible to defend against 9 attacking units unless you have a furgon and your opponent has no muddie. And even then, it's difficult if the rusher is determined.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm not trying to attack you, LT.

I didn't say that, but I did say you were attacking a moot point.

I'm merely pointing out that you can't be expected to have as good a tactical awareness of the gold game if you've only played grey, compared to sdomeone with 5000+ GOLD-GOLD matches under their belt.

Move down one line to get the real issue of that post.... Concept, not strategy. The strategy was weak; the concept was sound. It is the basis of every grey turtle and most golds. I know top-rated golds in Great Lakes that use this very concept without fail (Monkus, for instance, if you wish to include someone in this thread, has used this in all of our battles, and the worst he's lost is a wisp and a scout; isolate, hold down, and kill. One by one, two by two).

It is simply not possible to defend against 9 attacking units unless you have a furgon and your opponent has no muddie. And even then, it's difficult if the rusher is determined.

8 if there is a dragon, or any other factors (like the occasional LW use); due to the reliance on paralyzing units and the lack of wall units, furgon is required as stated; paralyze the muddie with the frostie or just flat-out kill it.

If a gold rusher is determined, they'll use a GA and screw you over anyway.

[Bottle]

Move down one line to get the real issue of that post.... Concept, not strategy. The strategy was weak; the concept was sound. It is the basis of every grey turtle and most golds. I know top-rated golds in Great Lakes that use this very concept without fail (Monkus, for instance, if you wish to include someone in this thread, has used this in all of our battles, and the worst he's lost is a wisp and a scout; isolate, hold down, and kill. One by one, two by two).
It is indeed the basis of every grey turtle, and also almost every gold turtle. Kill the cleric, force the enemy to come to you, hold them off and slowly kill them using paralysers. GOLD RUSH MATCHES ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM GOLD TURTLE MATCHES. You will NEVER hold down a paralysis against a reasonable player for more than about 3 or 4 turns, maximum, and that's if you've got a BW and furgon. The gold rush inevitably contains 2 scouts, muddie, ambusher, dragon, and often wisp if they think they're playing a turtle (designed for clerickill / focusbreaking). You will not hold that lot off with a paralyser, a poisoner, a BW and a furgon.

The concept is unsound, not the formation. Golds simply have too much firepower and range. Again, no matter how many grey-gold matches you've played, you just won't be able to comprehend that range and firepower until you've used it. Greys have 1 effective ranged attacker, and that's it. (Witches and pyros die too easily.)

[Lonely Tylenol]

You will NEVER hold down a paralysis against a reasonable player for more than about 3 or 4 turns, maximum, and that's if you've got a BW and furgon.

The Scouts aren't the big issue, so much as it is the GA. The Scouts can be countered, to some extent, by surrounding them with shrubs. The Golem Ambusher can be countered much more efficiently by surrounding it in one Furgon attack, since it has no short range capabilities, thus wasting one of your opponent's attacks to make it movable. Past that point, you're pretty much reliant on the placement of the Golem Ambusher (which side it's on) to eliminate its usage.

The Scouts do have LoS capabilities and can thus break their own bushes, however, in order to move after that they rack up a two-turn recovery; in this time, with three Scout attacks (alternate Scouts), they're down to 1 HP after a heal. Without the heal, a Pyro attack will finish it after two Scouts. You can quickly eliminate a Scout with counter-range attacks, due to its low HP and armor. If they stone it, then it's probably in the back, in which case you are likely to have enough time to prepare for it.

Dragon Tyrant and Poison Wisp are the intended targets for the first wave. Actually, all teleporting units are intended to be the first ones you paralyze/kill.

The concept is unsound, not the formation. Golds simply have too much firepower and range.

I understand that the firepower of a heavy rush is hard to fight against, however, in the face of this, you have two choices.

1. Concentrate on the strong point of a turtle. This is, of course, paralyzing. As you said, this is the primary target of most grey and gold turtles, and for a reason. That is the turtle's strongest point. The one way I'm focusing on countering a heavy rush is by pressing harder on the strong points of the turtle--increasing the paralyzing efficiency.

2. Switch to another point. The only other highly popular point is all-out damage; this is split into two categories, general (rush) and unblockable (mage). Basically, the biggest alternative to focusing on the existing strong points of the turtle is by concentrating your own mass of firepower in a turtle form--some call these "power turtles", I call them "corner rushes".

Basically... You're looking for that lightsaber, or fighting them with a bigger gun.

Which is it?

Personally, I'd MUCH rather fight with a bigger gun than a lightsaber, however, since this is the search for the ANTI-rush, I'm trying to focus on the concepts of the turtle. Namely,

1. Isolate
2. Paralyze
3. Kill

[Bottle]

Furgons can only make 5 shrubs every 2 turns. That won't stop 9 units.

The strengths of the turtle are only paralyse and kill if the muddie and cleric are dead, usually. And it's rare that you can force a good opponent to isolate one of their units.

I don't have time to respond to the rest of the post. :)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Furgons can only make 5 shrubs every 2 turns. That won't stop 9 units.

You don't need to stop nine at a time, the focus is to just stop the ones you need to kill and/or the ones that pose an immediate threat to your rush (at most, this will be the six mentioned). You'll only even be fighting nine attacking units if 1. The opponent doesn't have a Dragon or 2. The opponent doesn't have a Cleric.

That last point was a nitpick, but nevertheless. :p

The strengths of the turtle are only paralyse and kill if the muddie and cleric are dead, usually. And it's rare that you can force a good opponent to isolate one of their units.

Paralyze the muddie and it's a moot point--you can kill it at your leisure.

[FryLock]

2 scouts and an ambusher and a wisp will free up any paralyzed muddy right quick.

Look, it's just this simple...a turtle will NOT beat a good rusher unless the rusher screws up completely, and the turtler gets some savage luck. Yes, the turtle is only looking at perhaps 6 units...but since those 6 units are already in position, a good rusher is going to position the other units for a surrounding attack.

It's exactly the same principle you were trying to articulate about your grey spread. And since gold turtles generally don't have the BW+ chanty defense, the flanking will actually work.

If the rusher elects not to use the GA, the turtler might have a chance, if they have a furgon. But even then, it's a longshot.

[Wolfman]

Look, it's just this simple...a turtle will NOT beat a good rusher unless the rusher screws up completely, and the turtler gets some savage luck.

i can win a rusher like Fry when he is not paying attention to my modified tag tur.... hehehehe

wolfy

**** fry knows what this mean.... it is a tag team mate joke.
**** don take this post too serious.
****i actually did win fry when he did not pay attention with a silly tur.

[FryLock]

ah! no no no, that's not how it happened. I beat it in the "pre-modification" form, but lost to it in the "post-modification" set. That's all we can say about it for now...it's a secret!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Look, it's just this simple...a turtle will NOT beat a good rusher unless the rusher screws up completely, and the turtler gets some savage luck.

Note what I said a short time before...

Personally, I'd MUCH rather fight with a bigger gun than a lightsaber, however, since this is the search for the ANTI-rush, I'm trying to focus on the concepts of the turtle.

If we were really just looking for a way to solve the turtler's problems the easy way, I'd advise them to either rush or bomb. But since that doesn't get anybody anywhere, finding the cure for the common turtle is all i'm trying to do.

[Bottle]

If a turtle is going to stand any chance at all against a rush, it needs to a) have a stoney and b) keep the stone focus (usuallly using a BW). No matter how many units you paralyse (and you can only do one at a time, and if you then spend 3 turns shooting that to death the rusher has 3 turns to get 3 other units into attacking positions) there will always be more coming to get you, and trying to break that frost focus. You are right that you need to isolate and take out units one at a time, but you need some firepower to do it. My preferred combo is 2 scouts (for ranged attack), muddie (for getting things that run away) and knight (for beating up stuff that gets close), all armored, with a frostie to help hold units down (but not be relied on to win every game), BW to protect the stoney/frostie/cleric, and furgon and LW to block up one flank where the BW is. Positioned well to block all LOS shots on the cleric means that you'll stand a decent chance of outlasting the opponent with your extra armor and keeping your healing ability (which is what a rush tries primarily to remove).

And a good player won't allow their muddie to be frozen, will they? Would you? I'd keep the muddie back until the frost had just been used, and then move it in to ether break frost focus or to destroy all the shrubs protecting the frostie.

[monkus]

Okay, I'm back everyone! Now, back to the topic in question...:

The reason turtles have so many problems against rushes is that they CANT isolate everything, they CANT maintain paralysis, and they CANT keep their cleric alive.

Bottle's right. 5 shrubs every other turn isn't enough to keep 8-9 attacking units out, especially if 3 can teleport (dragon, wisp, muddy), 2 have 6 LOS range (scouts), 1 has unblockable 6 range (busher), and a few other units are there just to break through the shrubs and cause trouble.

Try maintaining a frosty lock with this: 2 scouts to take advantage of any possible LOS shot they can get, a busher that can just move in and nail the frosty, a muddy that can jump in from 8 squares away and own it, and a dragon and a wisp to help too, minus, of course, whatever you managed to paralyze. Then realize that if they hit the frosty once, chances are the unit has a chance to attack again and move away.



People keep saying "Well, the obvious answer is to rush back, but we're doing things the hard way." This is not the truth. We're not trying to avoid the "easy way out". I doubt there is any way in a million years that I can beat crx rush vs rush. It just can't happen. Crx and I have different skills, and while I may consistently beat him in turtle games (well, 1 so far, but still), I can't touch him rush on rush, or rush on turtle. Considering most tournaments allow for any formation, most matches allow for any formation, a problem arises. How can I beat a really strong rusher?

Bombs won't work. Rushes are usually spread out enough to avoid the worst harms of bombs, plus they have the firepower to take out the deadliest units. You can't have 10 dsm-strength pyros, so don't expect to have consistent firepower once the dsm is dead. If you try and protect it, that's one less unit to use on the offense, and you'll still probably lose.


So, here's the major question. I have not the skill to beat a good rusher in a rush on rush game. So how can I beat a rush. I don't need a sure way to do it, i'm not looking for some cheat to beat them every time. All I want is a formation that puts me on equal footing with a rusher, and not at a disadvantage.
Rush vs rush can't do this, because that means I can't make use of my skills, but instead need to try to adjust to fit their skills, which I can't because any good rusher will always have 10x the experience as me and 10x the rush skill.
As of now, if I turtle against a rush, I can usually beat a rush if I am around 50% better than them in skill, assuming I get at least a little better luck than them. I lose to any rusher that's even close to me in skill, and if they get lucky, skill doesn't really matter.

That's why we search for the perfect anti-rush. To put ourselves on equal footing, because clearly Seed is working against us with the units being created.

[thefreezing]

I have never lost to anti-rushers especially Moose's too. Zzzaacckk, your antis seems good, better than Moosey's. :cool:

[Bottle]

It's quite simple; turtles will NEVER beat a good rusher without some decent luck, in the same way that a grey will never beat a good gold without some crazy luck.

[monkus]

I disagree. In fact, I think I'm on the verge of something. Bottle (or another good turtler I know), if you'd care to PM me, I'll elaborate, but I don't want to get it out yet. However, I did flawless a decent rusher with this form.

[Bottle]

You could simply PM me... I'm intrigued. I thought I had the perfect antirush turt a while back, after a few good wins, but it then got shot down in flames by only one unit... I'll be interested to see if yours can better that.

[bludhoundz]

I disagree. In fact, I think I'm on the verge of something. Bottle (or another good turtler I know), if you'd care to PM me, I'll elaborate, but I don't want to get it out yet. However, I did flawless a decent rusher with this form.

I'd like to know.

[Ferretball]

This turtle works wonders against rushes.

http://www.ferretball.com/fractals/turtlerushanti.JPG

[zzzaacckk]

That is the least turtle like turtle that one has evre called a turtle. That is a 1 sided RUSH.

[Godmic18]

Lol, that formation actually makes it easier for my rush because you have nowhere to go with yer cleric.

Anyway, There is no absolute anto-rush since there are a few types of rushes. Bombs can take on rushes if made properly along with the occasional turtle, but usually rushes are best dealt with using another rush.

If you would like to see a few of my formations, pm me.

[Lonely Tylenol]

It's quite simple; turtles will NEVER beat a good rusher without some decent luck, in the same way that a grey will never beat a good gold without some crazy luck.

I disagree. If this was true, we wouldn't be here discussing this right now.

[Bottle]

The reason we are discussing it is because no one has found one yet. Hence, my statement is still true. :rolleyes:

[swordking35]

on the second one take out an extra scout for a dragon

[Bottle]

Take OUT a SCOUT? You must be crazy...

[Godmic18]

on the second one take out an extra scout for a dragon

Ah! Never!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Take OUT a SCOUT? You must be crazy...

He might be crazy, but he's making me look good.

Wonder if he's a regular on these sections of the board, eh? :D

[Wayfaerer]

I dumped both my scouts, they blow anyways

[RKO21]

EDIT: Cleared!

[BlackSyphon]

I dumped both my scouts, they blow anyways

your dumber than an ambusher...

du :)

[emerald slasher]

dump scouts? u nub :p ( play now if u have no scouts :p)

[FryLock]

*cough*bomb*cough* :D

*cough*IDIOT*cough.

Man...there's something going around these days. Whew.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, no kidding. My throat's been sore and I've been coughing up the wazoo.

Or were you talking about the stupid? Yeah, that's been going around too.

[sub the hendrix]

I dumped both my scouts, they blow anyways

you're a strange one wayf... :rolleyes:

[Bottle]

Before we get any more n00b comments: Wayfaerer was being SARCASTIC.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Bottle, no offense, but wasn't that obvious?

....On second thought.

I believe I've played Wayf with him using two Scouts, so that was obvious to me. I was mocking Swordking's comment, then ignoring Wayf's and moving directly onward to the comment about bombing to counter a rush.

[Bottle]

Bottle, no offense, but wasn't that obvious?
Tell that to these guys.
dump scouts? u nub :p ( play now if u have no scouts)
you're a strange one wayf... :rolleyes:

[Lonely Tylenol]

That's why I added the second paragraph right after posting it, to save face. :p

[sub the hendrix]

Uh.. bottle, I'm in wayf's clan, I know he was being sarcastic.

[Mad Hаtter]

I am fairly new to being gold, but I consider myself quite good. So after reading this thread, I have dicided to post three of my forms.

http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/1131/mh3oy.jpg
This form is my main form, and I have not lost with it yet to a turtle, freestyle, flank, or rush. I have lost to a bomb with it.

http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/5638/mh15pl.jpg
This is what I designed while reading this thread, it is yet to be tested out.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/9979/mh23nm.jpg
This is my dragon-less improvement upon what I designed while reading this. EDI: While testing this set, I would have to say a key is not to over shrub yourself.

I hope by me posting three new sets, and bumping this thread, we can reopen the search for a great set and reopen the great strategic discussions. discussions.

[~GooseR~]

nice sets mad

[Mad Hаtter]

http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/5103/thatshowtobeatarush8lg.jpg

Here is a demonstration on how my set stops a wisp. It is actually a very fun set to use, and the furgon is fast becoming a favorite unit of mine. Any suggestions are welcome.

[imagination]

my advice on the anti is lose the wards. the difference between grey and gold is mobility and range. sure we get more power too but the reason you see more gold rushes than grey rushes is because the units we have can move in faster. now with that said use beefy units. this means no wisps dsms or mages of any sort. you need to outlast them. lastly dont get to preocupied with defense. make something that can go on offense fast but still starts out in a decent defensive postion. hell if you put 2 units in front of the cleric and the rest on the front line starting from the wall over you would have a start for an anti. go from that and tweak it up to suit your needs

[Mad Hаtter]

The reason I have that lighting ward there, is because lets say I used the furgon as demonstrated in the picture posted above your post, the opponents wisp can now get scout scout frost knight, but that square is now protected by the LW, and I can kill the wisp next turn even if they heal. Also I have been having problems with Mages and scouts flanking, and I believe the position my LW is in helps limit LOS, and may luckily eliminate a mage. However, the main reason it is there is because I lack big damage units when I removed the dragon, so it is there for defensive combo damage. I hope that made sense, if not I could clarify.

[imagination]

it made sense ... i would post my form but that would require me to s/s it then host it and come back here and im to lazy so ill try and post it using code which ive never used before.

xxxc
xxxbx
xxxmxx
sxxxxx
xkdksk

c=cleric
b=beserker
m=mud
s=scout
k=knight
d=drag

i havent been keeping a w/l record with it but it has gotten me from about 1450 to almost 1550 pretty rapidly and im still rising.

[Mad Hаtter]

What about mages attacking you?

[imagination]

they have high wait times. they get one attack in each before they die. i heal alot and kill them fast. ill end up with a scout, knight, beserker and cleric vrs a drag and scouts usually when i play mage bombs. I am good at keeping my cleric alive and so if i heal alot and kill the mages fast it is usually really easy. last knight i played a 4 witch, dsm and pyro, mud, cleric and drag last night and ended up only losing like 4-5 units.

[monkus]

There are two kinds of real anti-rushes. The first is a technique-based anti-rush. The second is a power anti.

The technique-based antirush makes use of furgon/frosty, wisp moves, and other tricky sequences to deal with attacking units. Most turtle games are witness to technique defense, and sometimes a rush can be held off with the same. Wayfaerer and I are the only two people that I've ever seen win serious games with real technique-based forms (I'm talking 4 attack units in freestyle), although Wayf's much better than I am with it.
In a technique-based form, it is important to have a Lightning Ward, because it deals massive damage, and helps stop an enemy from completely overwhelming you from the front. They can attempt to attack from the side, but the delay will allow you to establish a strong defense.

I do believe I helped pioneer the search for an anti rush, at the point where there were just rushes and turtles, with the introduction of the term "Lightsaber", essentially a sword (turtle-like form) that can deal with guns (rushes). You can see people talking about it on page one of the thread. This was the original lightsaber, that wasn't wholly successful but did come pretty close to beating allstar and drew The Thrasher:
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6477/thelightsaber5wq.jpg
Other technique-based anti-rushes have included things like the stone golem, the wisp, even the ambusher for long-ranged engagement. It's foolish to use muddy here, because you're not meant to engage the enemy, but let them come to you and deal with them then. Any turtle that's adapted slightly to deal with rushes tends to be a technique-based antirush.


Power antirushes are different. They're not just a one-sided rush, but a formation that has enough power to deal with threats and kill them, but makes use of defensive nature for things like cleric survival and protecting weaker units. Often spread-out rushes have problems dealing with power antis, because they can't make use of all of their units immediately, and time spent moving units around gives the anti-rusher the opportunity to kill things. I wouldn't advise using a muddy in these forms, because the point isn't to engage them but force them to come to you while you kill their frontal units.
I have one infamous anti-rush, that I have made entirely on my own, with a tiny little credit owed to Darrington Darque and Shiny Flors, who inspired the line of work. Shiny used a power turtle against rushes, while darrington sought a delicate balance and used a centered form that today would be considered a power anti. This formation is completely impervious to early-game LOS against the cleric and DSM bombing against the cleric. Dsms do get off a little damage early game, but die rather quickly. This form is entirely my creation:
http://img333.imageshack.us/img333/6750/anti5it.jpg
Consider using it, or trying it out. It's a ton of fun to use, requires no drops, and works regardless of skill. Technique antis take a lot of skill to use at all, this can be used whether you're a noob or a pro, but pros will be able to do wonderful things like save the cleric and frost whore an opponent. It works splendidly, and it is my new favorite "lightsaber", though more of a power lightsaber than a quick, bullet reflecting one (technique).

[iceman2001]

Good forms, but a talented rusher with a good form will be able to take those down...The problem I've found with the anti game is that if they get first turn they'll have a tremendous advantage. The only way I've found to counter this is to fight fire with fire.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You'll get my forms when I'm done with them.

Speaking of which:

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/827/gold19oq.jpg

Strategy's simple. Cleric defense, with a guarded battle position. Ranged units (twin Scouts and GA) attack while being protected by the Lightning Ward and Knight defense.

This was my trophy freestyle form for months until I made a new one that utilizes the Berserker. It's more of a rush than an anti, but it applies all the core defensive principles as well as allows itself to go on the attack. And it won't be posted here until I'm done with it, so nyah. :happy:

[imagination]

um i've only lost with my anti to other antirushes and rushes that got luck.

[yall are ded]

Thank you guys I will try those out tommorow:) Hey LT looks like ya finally got to showin me that anti :p

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thank you guys I will try those out tommorow:) Hey LT looks like ya finally got to showin me that anti :p

About time, eh? :)

[Cuathon]

lol, what if you got the other side Hatter? looks to me like you got off easy in that AML pic.

[Mad Hаtter]

I have not run into that issue yet Cuathon, but I believe I would first turn walk my furgon up two spaces and shrub the key areas for the Golem Ambusher, then play it off that. I can't really explain what to do without the circumstances described. Also if the Golem Ambusher is already in line for my cleric I guess I could paralyze, or just plain run my cleric out of my set. I mean if you are screwed you're screwed, but you might as well attempt to protect him.

[Match Strike]

I have lately been using an "interesting" form. Monkus, I know you have seen it, as have other people who may or may not read it.

It came about one day as I was staring at a classic power turt (two knights, frost, drag, mud) in my set and thinking hell, this shouldn't really be a bad freestyle form. After all, it had a more than decent number of fighters, and three support units isn't over the top at all, especially since the frost golem can also be used as a de-focuser for wisp and the like...

So why wasn't it good in freestyle then? Well, it didn't take long for me to decide that it was because all my ranged units were near the back, meaning I couldn't quickly engage a rusher.

So I did something that is both unheard of and seemingly obvious: I put frost in front of cleric, and STONE IN FRONT OF FROST. With the traditional stone group lined up and ready to fire.

It works. All you have to do is re-consider the use of stone golem. It's not something that you expell vast amounts of effort to keep in focus, but it can save a cleric, help an injured unit, be a shield, etc..

And I can't tell you how many endgames I've won because of it, wher I got the edge over the other guys fighting units because of my stoney.

[KBHoleN1]

Who likes my anti-rush?

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2876/goldturtle4tq.png

Sexy, no? Purely a technique game, takes turn-planning to an extreme. Btw, TURTLES RULE!!!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! :dry:

[Match Strike]

A DSM would destroy KBs form.

[imagination]

um no it wouldnt :-(

[yall are ded]

Looks really cool I'l have to try it :)Only way I can see a rush really taking it down is a DSM/pyro with maby a muddie/poison wisp WITH back up. That or a lucky ambusher straight to the cleric with a muddie. This actually may be able to take a bomb therefore....I like it:)

Edit:I have one infamous anti-rush, that I have made entirely on my own, with a tiny little credit owed to Darrington Darque and Shiny Flors, who inspired the line of work. Shiny used a power turtle against rushes, while darrington sought a delicate balance and used a centered form that today would be considered a power anti. This formation is completely impervious to early-game LOS against the cleric and DSM bombing against the cleric. Dsms do get off a little damage early game, but die rather quickly. This form is entirely my creation:
http://img333.imageshack.us/img333/6750/anti5it.jpg
Consider using it, or trying it out. It's a ton of fun to use, requires no drops, and works regardless of skill. Technique antis take a lot of skill to use at all, this can be used whether you're a noob or a pro, but pros will be able to do wonderful things like save the cleric and frost whore an opponent. It works splendidly, and it is my new favorite "lightsaber", though more of a power lightsaber than a quick, bullet reflecting one (technique).
I really like this form monkus. It has worked well and I have never lost with it. There was one game where i faced a rush. He rushed my cleric with poison wisp and ambusher. However while he was doing this I finished off his scout and poison wisp and took his ga down to 38. After that I spread the scouts a little and picked off his pyros with them and my dragon. I frostied his dragon which he tried to free with his knights but failed miserably. I have to say monkus...You are brilliant:)

[~Priest~]

That is a nice setup, seems pretty full proof. I was thinkin too that the beserker could be an optional replacement for the GA too stop the mud from causing to much havoc, but the GA's placement really makes it a useful unit; it would be interesting to see that setup in action.

Only thing I see giving that setup a problem is a good turtle setup, and power antis with mud/ga on your side.

[I BEAT MATHEWS]

Heres an anti that includes the berserker and is based on LT's form posted earlier, What do you guys think of it?

http://img269.imageshack.us/my.php?image=myantiform9jb.jpg

[imagination]

move the beserker into that line in front of the cleric so you can stop a ga if needed. right now its not worth much.

[yall are ded]

The lightning ward is in a good postion but rush it well and it will fall. There is no LOS coverage for major units. By that I mean if the lightning ward is incapaciatated meaning alot is riding on the lightning ward...Other than that I like it. I woud move the knight backline to front line, beside the lightning ward.Then move the scout where the knight is for a double knight shot the right of the knight saving you a turn moving it. Scout shot + lightning ward= probable death. I also suggest moving the barserker to the left or right of the ambusher. If on the right it is more offensive but easier to take out early however giviong you 2 turns to inflict major damage to a muddie. To the left it is more reserved with coverage from the lightning ward.Maby used for late middle game.

[zzzaacckk]

wow... im very glad to see this thread still alive :) continue on :p

[I BEAT MATHEWS]

I have tweaked my previous form a little bit with los coverage and some more stuff. But it works for me, maybe not for you guys :p

[yall are ded]

Nice can I see it. (I may actually add it to my little book of forms if you let me :D)
Edit: Dang nice forms dude:)

[tyu]

Here's my anti. :)
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1517404161.jpg&s=x12

[yall are ded]

oooo I had to notice the 9 witches. Nice form...wouldent the lw be more useful on a little to the left in place of the knight...maby switched...yeah switched:)
Edit: Here is my anti adapted from monkuses power anti. I uses monkus' more but I was wondering what you guys think.
http://x12.putfile.com/1/1520090424-thumb.jpg (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=1/1520090424.jpg&s=x12)

[Mithrandir]

Mad-Hatter and I were playing around on rev last night for a while trying to come up with a form that could stop a first turn, same side ambusher/mud combo. We came very close several times but the anti never managed to win. We had a couple of very good ones though (hopefully Mad-Hatter will post them, I don't remember them very well). The units in the anti we usually liked the most were cleric, stone, frost, furgy, lw, two scouts, three knights (sometimes two knights, bers). Maybe, just maybe if the rusher with mud and amby on the right side didn't also get first turn we could come up with a solution but we'd have to keep working at it.

We friggin' tried everything but there are just too many support units. The wisp and flanking scout were particularly troublesome. It seems to me like the best solution would be the concept allows the cleric to die but make the opponent lose two or three units in the process, including the mud, and then take advantage of the furgy/frosty combo as well as the stone.

Early in this thread is a form of Wayf's that a lot of people commented on. Unfortunately the link doesn't work anymore. If someone knows what it looked like and could repost it, I'd appreciate it.

[monkus]

Mith, the trick is to not try and save your cleric, but try and deal as much damage as possible before it dies, while keeping it alive just long enough to maximize that damage. For example, if they have ambusher/muddy, you heal so the muddy can't finish it off, go for the ambusher, and lure their entire setup into your anti so you can kill them all off.

Here's the form that Wayf and I use when turtling against rushes (I had like a tiny hand in helping make it, but it's mostly Wayf's genius):
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/8408/turtleanti9xt.jpg

It's entirely technique-oriented, and ridiculously hard to use. It's fun though.

[Mithrandir]

Mith, the trick is to not try and save your cleric, but try and deal as much damage as possible before it dies, while keeping it alive just long enough to maximize that damage. For example, if they have ambusher/muddy, you heal so the muddy can't finish it off, go for the ambusher, and lure their entire setup into your anti so you can kill them all off.
Yeah but we came so close to saving it.:(