Funky Turtle Rules

[Cuathon]

I need an opinion on some turtle rules.
Is it reasonable to have a muddy or scout or such on the front line in a specifically declared turtle game?
i recently lost a game due tot this. and i find it annoying that i was not even informed by my opponent about this.

[Wayfaerer]

I don't really see those 2 units serving as an advantage in the front :confused:

[Cuathon]

there was a muddy in front and the guy stoned 2 scouts, a dragon, and a wisp. i wasnt not able to stone up or heal. by the time i killed it i was under full assault. this was a same side game.

[Terps rock]

i dont like gold turtles cuz its not all about walls it is more about stoning then launching it seems, or maybe the gold's i play just fake turtle or sometin

[Cuathon]

of course its about stoning and launching. one guy has to launch or you cant defend. and whoever attacks first has a way better chance to win.

[Wayfaerer]

and whoever attacks first has a way better chance to win.

Not at all ;)

[Cuathon]

yes it is. if you sit back scouts and muddies and wisps will own you. and you cant destone or kill their cleric/s.

can we get back to the original topic now?
go make another thread for this new arguement.

[Wayfaerer]

I'm gonna assume you usually rush, or just don't know how to play defense :rolleyes:

[Cuathon]

um no. i dont always rush. i turtled for at least the first 8 months thank you.
fine i am wrong. now can we get back to the damn topic?

[Cuathon]

doesn noone have an opinion about this?

[Wayfaerer]

I wouldn't complain if someone was stupid enough to put a scout in the front row ;)

[Terps rock]

technically i think turtles are defensive!!! where you snipe from distance at enemies plucking them off and slowly setting up an attack when they get too close, you don't turtle, or im really confused ZZZAACCKK help!!!!

[Office_Shredder]

terps, you're just really confused.

Wayf, I don't see how playing pure defense can possibly win you the game. The only way that can work is if your opponent is already a worse player than you, so he allows you to build a shrub wall while slowly getting pushed back, and a frostie nabs a scout or muddy in the process.

But seriously, in a turtle turtle game you have to go offensive to win..... best case scenario is you and your opponent just sit there shrubbing up

[Wayfaerer]

Walling doesn't work anymore, there's other ways to use the furgon, and I have beaten afew of the FPS 'elites' by playing pure defence. I won't mention who but they were some good, close games :)

I often go on the offense, just not in certain scenarios, and defense is so much more fun to play :cool:

[Office_Shredder]

"often go on the offense" is the key there ;)

Sometimes, playing defense is superior. But the general rule of thumb is that if you play defensively, more often than not you're screwing yourself of opportunities

[Wayfaerer]

Often because few people who turtle here use turtles which are incredible open and easy to snipe (with the second scout especially)

[Wolfman]

bot.... your reply is required here... it seems that your test tur is under fire here!

wolfy

[Cuathon]

yes it is!

[Terps rock]

i use two chanties and two bwards and i wait for them to come in by sniping at distance then pounce, i mean the way yall are calling turtling it is like if u start back and waste one turn on defence then full out assault its a turtle, so i am really of then

[Goldberg]

Cuathon, can I ask what units you had? Because if the scout was right in the middle line, all you need is a properly put Lward and that fruit will go running at once. If you did not use one, then you must be really prepared for an assault, in that match the Scout. Maybe you can use a furgon or something? If you did, well I don't know..

[MANSLAUGHTER1]

Cuathon I think it still is a turtle maybe but that wasn't a good idea of him to not stonie his muddy then that means his muddy is easier to kill. Also you should't use stonie when muddy can easily break it.

[Cuathon]

@terps, stay on topic
@goldberg, i had a furgie and it was muddy not a scout. my lward was the normal 4space in front of my cleric.

man i did kill it and i didnt stone. but by then he had his scouts wisp and drag stoned and coming after me. plus it was wolfman so i was kinda stuck anyway.

terps by the way, are you gold? because if you are then your screwed. and if you arent well of course you can do that grey. but when yuore gold cnaties and bwards are pretty much trash. try to hold that form up to 2 scouts a wisp a dragon and a mudgolem.

[Terps rock]

oh im grey but what im saying is well i hate tele crap that ruins it.... yeah ok, but still, i mean, well maybe not ur right Cuathon and having anything front line cept LW NOT a turtle

[monkus]

Wolfman pulled a nice little trick on you. Technically, its allowed in turtles, but quite questionable. A move like this is having a busher up front in a turtle game, except not quite the same. I would argue that it wasn't a turtle, considering a turtle is a defensive formation and that certainly wasn't defensive.

[Cuathon]

actually if you think about it turtles dont defend much. unless the otherguy gets the jump on you.
yeah i dont think its really a turtle. even though the turt geek bottle made it. the only thing i think is okay on the fron is lward, drag, knights, or furgy.

[Bottle]

It is indeed my turtle which is under attack here (muddy up front), so now's my turn to defend it as a true turtle.

For one thing, I doubt you'll ever see the muddie kill anything when it's on the front rank by itself. Nor a scout, because even if it snipes the cleric on turn 1, it's quite easy to block the second shot within 2 turns while still stoning up, and your opponent will lose his scout. The muddie is there as a DISTRACTION. Whatever Wayf says (and remember what happened when you played pure defense vs. me wayf?), you can't win a turtle battle by defending if your opponent knows what he's doing. Therefore, you need every advantage you can get to be the one who attacks. Many time I don't even quake with my muddy, I simply retreat it to a corner square behind my furgy where it is (relatively) safe. My opponent has wasted 2 turns attacking it, I have stoned up and maybe burnt an unarmored scout with my dragon, and they'e gained nothing. But a good player won't fall for that one. On the other hand, if I was to sac my own muddy to break stone focus, and my opponet simply shrubbed up, froze and killed the muddy, and restoned, I have gained nothing whatsoever.

In opp side matches, the same applies; it's a distraction for enemy scouts. They end up with 2 turn recovery when mine only have 1 turn, so I break their stone focus first and get the exposed scouts.

You guys still fail to realise the most important thing in a turt match is not the damage done, but the THREAT of damage done. Out-psyching your opponent will win you many a match.

My definition of a true turtle is "a formation that does not seek to gain any advantage from initial position". Therefore, my muddy "turtle" is not a real turtle. But then, no one else makes a turtle by the same definition as me any more, so I have to stretch my rules a bit or end up losing every single game.

And I might add that if you play against it properly with a decent formation, my muddy-up-front formation has NO CHANCE AT ALL.

[bludhoundz]

Yup, I helped him try out his little muddie stunt. It worked pretty finely the first time, when I was afraid to develop my pieces because of a mudquake. What ended up happening was my shrubbing a lot. He had developed everything but his dragon. I was completely screwed over.

Then he tried the mudquake first turn. I instantly shrubbed and froze, not bothering to stone for another few turns :).

If you think about it, the mud golem is actually a defense mechanism. If your opponent tries to develop any stoned units, you can instantly unstone them, and hit the now de-stoned unit with a dragon blast. So what it does is keep your opponent from developing their own pieces until the muddie threat is gone. So in the mean time, you can make a shrub cross, and maybe develop a scout or two (depending on what is attacking the muddie). Once its at low health, hide it behind your shrubs and furgon, and you've just wasted your opponents attacks, because they can't kill it! Also, you have a development advantage, where you're already on the attack, so you can start pounding on their formation while healing your muddie for a quake.

[Wayfaerer]

I didn't play pure defense vs. you, and it was a same side match :rolleyes:

I appreciate the stab at me though :p

[sub the hendrix]

Often (well not often, but several times) I have won a turtle match even though I lose cleric.... say an armored muddie takes it out. I kill muddie, lose cleric, what are my options? Thats easy, play defense. It truly is a psychological game, turtling is. With a frost, cleric, and scout I can lure enemy scouts away, paralyze them, and use furgon while my other scout finishes them off. Yes this requires your opponent making mistakes, so obviously I would not advocate intentionally losing your clreic :p but its true like bottle said, the game is psychological. Only bottle beleives the threat of an easy attack is key, I beleive it can be much more deadly to implement the lure of an easy kill.

[Bottle]

Often (well not often, but several times) I have won a turtle match even though I lose cleric.... say an armored muddie takes it out. I kill muddie, lose cleric, what are my options? Thats easy, play defense. It truly is a psychological game, turtling is. With a frost, cleric, and scout I can lure enemy scouts away, paralyze them, and use furgon while my other scout finishes them off. Yes this requires your opponent making mistakes
Indeed it does. I would gladly swop my muddie for the enemy cleric. If they then defended, no matter how tight the defense, I would still be able to pick away at you without entering frost range. If they attacked, I'd still hold the advantage, since the enemy can't heal and if I focus on one unit, it will die faster.

Only bottle beleives the threat of an easy attack is key
I do not, nor did I ever say I do. The threat of an attack is often enough to make your opponent defend against it instead of making an attacking move, and then you have free rein to attack yourself. An example: Moving a scout on 18 (armored) into range of shooting the stoney next turn. Now, the opponent has to choose between killing the scout and losing his stone focus, or letting the scout live and block up the stoney with a furgon. He blocks with the furgon. Now that scout can shoot some other unit, and move away to be healed. The enemy has lost his impetus, and you've got an extra attack in, just because your opponent was worried that you might do something. You don't even have to actually do it. Just the threat.

I use only threat units. The scouts, with a 10 space range, are always threatening breaking the stone/frost focus or killing the cleric. The dragon has a threat of dealing some really big damage, but once it's used, the threat is gone for 3 turns. You're always best saving your dragon so that people think "I could have 28 damage dealt to me at any time, I'd better run". The wisp is absolutely useless in a full on combat, but hide him behind some shrubs within 8 spaces of some important units and your opponent has to wonder when the wisp is going to pop out and attack him. The muddy, which I have up front, is threatening to break stone focus if his stone cluster moves away from the stone. Note that many times I don't use him, as I said earlier, but rather retreat him to safety. While he's there, he's a threat and slows the enemy down; you don't have to actually use him...

[monkus]

My definition of a true turtle is "a formation that does not seek to gain any advantage from initial position".



That's not an adequate definition at all. However, if we do accept it, then your form isn't a turtle, because it seeks to gain an advantage from having the muddy right there, which is its initial position.

Plus, you previously defined turtle as a formation that wants opposite sides. Clearly that's not the case in this scenario either.


The flaws in this definition is that a turtle does seek an advantage. It seeks the advantage from its initial position of taking advantage of the stone golem. Also, the lward is being taken advantage of in a majority of cases. How about taking advantage of the initial position to protect the cleric?

[Office_Shredder]

monkus, he acknowledges that the muddy up front isn't a true turtle.


You can't take advantage of a position defensively, what we mean by "taking advantage of" means using a setup with units positioned such that if your opponent is, luckily, on the right side you have a bigger advantage.

[Wolfman]

well.... i played bot a few times on his test tur (muddy upfront) n i find it truthfully alright to be classied as a tur. Why?.... cuz it aint that threathening at all if u know its trick... in fact... i love his muddy upfront unstoned.... i pretty kill it very fast, re-org n he has one unit lost for nothing.

i wonder if bot will put his wisp upfront in the place of muddy... i would love that.... :)

wolfy

[Cuathon]

wolf its fine if you know the trick. but while your learning it its annoying.

[Bottle]

So you spend 1 game learning, then when you next play you win. You don't learn anything by winning. And if you don't learn, you won't improve.

[Terps rock]

not true u can learn by winning it just isnt as blatent as when you make mistakes losing

[Bottle]

What do you learn by doing what you already know, hmm?

[Office_Shredder]

You learn that you roxor.

And if you make mistakes in a game, but still win, you can learn.

[monkus]

I disagree with you wolfman...first, the muddy is incredibly difficult to deal with, and it poses a threat, and second, it is not a turtle at all.

Here's why the muddy's a threat: Let's say I don't touch it or heal, and you get first turn. You zap it, shoot it with a scout once, shoot it with another scout. Sure, it's dead now, but look at what happens. I get 3 turns to do whatever I want. I can stone, then move units up or attack, or do a number of things. Those 3 turns at the beginning of the game are vital. You end up 3 turns behind, unstoned, and probably screwed.

Here's why it's not a turtle: A rush is a formation that is initially positioned to take the offensive. Your formation is set up to initially take the offensive, because the muddy is there to break a stoning, and you're certainly not going to use the three turns to set up a solid defense, because that makes little sense compared to the damage you could deal by attacking. Because a form cannot be a turtle and a rush, and because the form is a rush, the form isn't a turtle. Q.E.D.

[Bottle]

Monkus, that reasoning has so many holes in you could use it as a net.

There's no way that a formation with 5 damage units, 4 of them on the back 2 rows of the field, is a rush (unless the aim of the front unit is to kill the cleric, which the muddy cannot do). I accepted that it isn't a normal turtle, but I certainly wouldn't call it a rush. And believe me, it is quite simple to beat this form by merely fielding a furgon. That way, if I attack with the mud, you shrub and freeze and kill muddy, and continue shrubbing until you are safe enough to stone, heal and attack yourself. If I don't attack with the mud, I will be forced to retreat it, and then you have the chance to attack.

If you used that formation on me, I would beat it easily, as would anyone with half a brain first time, or second time if they don't have half a brain.

A rush is NOT a formation which is initially set up to take the offensive. Turtles take the offensive on turn 2 (after stoning). Are all turtles rushes then? My muddy turt takes the offensive on turn 2 as well.

A rush is a formation designed to kill the cleric as soon as possible, and to use weight of number to crush the foe. My formation does neither of those.

[Terps rock]

i think if the names were defensive and offensive strats monkus ur right but its not so Zaik ur right (yeah ur Zaik from now on)

OS rep for u if i could

[Bottle]

i think if the names were defensive and offensive strats monkus ur right but its not so Zaik ur right (yeah ur Zaik from now on)
Can someone pass me that n00b-english dictionary?

[monkus]

Monkus, that reasoning has so many holes in you could use it as a net.

Bottle, that was the greatest line I've ever heard in my entire life. I don't even care that it was intended to discredit my logic :)


There's no way that a formation with 5 damage units, 4 of them on the back 2 rows of the field, is a rush (unless the aim of the front unit is to kill the cleric, which the muddy cannot do). I accepted that it isn't a normal turtle, but I certainly wouldn't call it a rush. And believe me, it is quite simple to beat this form by merely fielding a furgon. That way, if I attack with the mud, you shrub and freeze and kill muddy, and continue shrubbing until you are safe enough to stone, heal and attack yourself. If I don't attack with the mud, I will be forced to retreat it, and then you have the chance to attack.


Well, let's look at exactly what a rush is. Just because fielding a furgon can stop the attack doesn't mean the attack isn't a rush



If you used that formation on me, I would beat it easily, as would anyone with half a brain first time, or second time if they don't have half a brain.


Just because it is easily beaten does not mean it is not a rush. I miss the point of this argument, as well as your argument about fielding a furgon.



A rush is NOT a formation which is initially set up to take the offensive. Turtles take the offensive on turn 2 (after stoning). Are all turtles rushes then? My muddy turt takes the offensive on turn 2 as well.

A rush is a formation designed to kill the cleric as soon as possible, and to use weight of number to crush the foe. My formation does neither of those.

If we want to talk about arguments having holes, I think you take the cake with this one. Note that this is the only argument that actually pertains to the question, "Is this formation a rush?"
First, you say that rushes aren't formations that are initially set up to take the offensive. Your evidence is that most turtles take the offensive by turn 2, and clearly turtles aren't rushes. However, there's an incredible amount of fallacy in this argument. Just because turtles take the offensive doesn't mean they are set up to take the offensive. I'd actually assume quite the opposite with a large group of units in the far back corner. Yes, turtles might take the offensive on turn two, but they clearly aren't set up in a way that makes them offensive. This formation is set up specifically that way.

After this, you attempt to define rushes. Note the problems with this argument as well.
First, not all rushes are cleric hunters. If I have 3 knights, 1 assassin, 1 beast rider, 1 dragon, and 2 scouts all positioned relatively up front, with a cleric in the back, I think this qualifies as a rush, but surely you don't expect this rush to focus on killing clerics. I already know your response bottle, but remember, just because the formation might not be successful doesn't mean it isn't a rush.
The second problem with your definition is where you say "weight of numbers". Hopefully you don't mean more units, because the 10 unit restriction will clear that up. If you mean more attacking units, that's not necessarily the case, because many rushes use support units, like cleric, frosty, etc., plus many nonrushes have a large number of attacking units too.

Rushes aren't just cleric hunters, and I honestly see no definition other than a formation which is initially prepared to take the offensive that can describe rushes. Just because turtles can be offensive doesn't mean they're set up that way, but this formation IS set up that way, hence it is a rush.

Sorry about the long post, but I couldn't help it :rolleyes:

[Wayfaerer]

You learn that you roxor.

rofl!

[Bottle]

Just because fielding a furgon can stop the attack doesn't mean the attack isn't a rush
Fair enough, but that's not the main point of my argument.

First, you say that rushes aren't formations that are initially set up to take the offensive. Your evidence is that most turtles take the offensive by turn 2, and clearly turtles aren't rushes. However, there's an incredible amount of fallacy in this argument. Just because turtles take the offensive doesn't mean they are set up to take the offensive. I'd actually assume quite the opposite with a large group of units in the far back corner. Yes, turtles might take the offensive on turn two, but they clearly aren't set up in a way that makes them offensive. This formation is set up specifically that way.
Turtles ARE set up to take the offensive. There's no doubt about it. Just because you start a long way away from the opponent (ie. opp corner), and it takes several turns to make contact, it doesn't mean that you aren't taking the offensive.

And another point, I play no differently with my "old style" turtle (with a knight up front) and my muddy turtle. I "take the offensive" equally as much with both. The only difference is people's perspective of how I attack, which is in fact the whole point of having the muddy up front. Threats, remember?

After this, you attempt to define rushes. Note the problems with this argument as well.
First, not all rushes are cleric hunters. If I have 3 knights, 1 assassin, 1 beast rider, 1 dragon, and 2 scouts all positioned relatively up front, with a cleric in the back, I think this qualifies as a rush, but surely you don't expect this rush to focus on killing clerics. I already know your response bottle, but remember, just because the formation might not be successful doesn't mean it isn't a rush.
If you know my response, why post such a lame argument? That comes under the heading of "outnumbering the foe", ie. having 9 damage units to (a turtle's) 5 or 6. Rushes which use a frostie are no different, since a frosty is on the boundaries between support and damage unit. (I class a damage unit as one that can stop a frosty getting your last unit.) And as for the "turtles" which use stoney, cleric, and 8 other damage units, I don't call them turtles. They're one sided rushes. Opposite side, they don't stand a chance; same side, they rock.

Rushes aren't just cleric hunters, and I honestly see no definition other than a formation which is initially prepared to take the offensive that can describe rushes. Just because turtles can be offensive doesn't mean they're set up that way, but this formation IS set up that way, hence it is a rush.
Again, your reasoning is flawed. You are still assuming that all I do is quake with the muddie on turn 1. That would be taking the offensive, would it not? What's the difference between having a muddy there and a knight there if I don't actually use it? The threat of using it. A single threat doesn't make a rush, or at least it didn't when I last checked... :rolleyes:

[Office_Shredder]

So if I DID stone up against you turn one, you wouldn't use the muddy the next turn

[bludhoundz]

No, he wouldn't. He'd also stone up. Now...if you moved a scout away from the stone cluster, he might just do it, and then flame the scout with a dragon...maybe wisp it. The muddie is there to inhibit developing pieces for a few turns.

[Wayfaerer]

If you slice it or zap it instead of stoning he'll just retreat

[Office_Shredder]

I know how to define a turtle!

A turtle is a setup in which its offensive capabilities are not directly hindered by the correct placement of a lightning ward striking on turn one. *nods*

[Walrus]

when im in turtle v turtle games i play a 'domination' tactic.
basically, i consider the board in 4 parts, each turtle starts in one part, i make it my goal to gradually expand and spread out to cover 3 of the 4 parts, thus containing the enemy turtle into a small space.
from there, i can probe and snipe from several different directions, and have plenty of space to retreat to if needed. the enemy on the other hand, will keep being pushed further back and closer together.
now, i expect a lot of the decent players will already have found the weakness in this tactic, that my units are more spread out, so a concentrated attack in one area can break defences. this is true, but the key is to whittle down the enemy and keep them on the back foot, such that if they try to manouever (sp?) their forces for an attack in one area, i will start probing into their less defended side and try to kill an exposed mage or so.

[Wolfman]

So if I DID stone up against you turn one, you wouldn't use the muddy the next turn

it all depends... if your tur formation is weak... ie. no furggy.. he will come...

else... like blud said... he will come after one of your attacking unit leaves the stone-cluster n then de-stone....

wolfy

[Bottle]

Exactly. I don't see the point in losing a unit to break a stone focus that will just be made again 2 turns later.

[FryLock]

Heh...again, Bottle's the master of the implied threat. There's so many things that muddy CAN do...if you bring things out, then it might pounce in and de-stone, costing you a unit or even two. If you don't venture out, he can come in after you, since, odd as it may seem, a turtle is often safer when attacking. If you just stay there and mess with the muddy, his dragon and scouts will come calling very soon. Not good.

Heh...this turtle is starting to make the rounds...I played 2 people who had it today, but they just ran the muddy in right off the bat. Idiots.

[Wolfman]

Heh...this turtle is starting to make the rounds...I played 2 people who had it today, but they just ran the muddy in right off the bat. Idiots.

hahaha.. i like the last part.... i mean the "idiots" part, fry.

anyway... there r lots of tur ppls who r not very creative.... not all ppls r bottle n wolf :P

wolfy

[Wayfaerer]

I couldn't imagine more than one Bottle :)

[Bottle]

I couldn't imagine more than one Bottle :)
Thank god!

Another example of the great positioning of the muddy came last night in the first play-off for League A between me and ~GladiatoR~. He had the first turn, his stoney was exactly one space out of sniping range from the start, and he had 4 fast units (mud, scouts and wisp) stoned to attack me with. I knew I wouldn't stand a chance if he sent them straight in and broke my stone focus. Fortunately, after we had both stoned, his first 2 moves were to shoot the muddie. Excellent! In that time, I moved a scout up, then healed the mud back to 48. Next turn he couldn't move his scouts. Next turn, I shot his stoney. He now had 2 scouts, w/o armor, looking down the barrel of my draconic gun. He tried to kill my cleric, but I simply blocked it with my furgon, so he had to retreat. While he was doing this I swopped one of my scouts for one of his and his furgon, which was trying to save them, and I was now the one on the attack.

If he hadn't gone for my exposed muddy, he would have won. Instead, he ended up on the back foot for the rest of the game, and he didn't actually kill my muddy until I had killed his wisp, mud, frost and cleric. Basically, attacking the muddy had been a waste of time... time critical to the battle.

THIS is mainly what my muddy is for. A distraction. Not a weapon.