Wards and formations

[pepperonio]

Before i get on with this topic, i would like to share some of my experiences.

During playing of this game, i (same as many of you) tried numbers of formations, but none of them are quite satisfying. it seems every single formation i've tried has a fatal problem. Recently (like a month ago), i tried the newbie basic formation on a new account, and it went unexpentingly well, my rating boost from 750 to 1200+ (if i remembered it right) in no time (without any change of that formation). (even though there are a risks of cleric being killed at the first turn, i still win over 80% of my games against grey, and after i've bit of improvement on it, i rarely lose)

Soon i realised non-ward formations has a obvious advantage over those formation that has 1 or more wards: that is it has got more strategic (fighting mobile, cleric not included) units than a formation that's including ward(s). for example: when you're using a formation that includes 2 wards, 1 cleric and playing against someone has got no ward, 1 cleric and 9 fighting pieces. you only have 7 strategic units on board, and your opponent has 9. that doesn't means you lose straight away, but it means you'll have a long battle. despite how flexible your opponent's formation would be, the first thing you can't afford to do is exchange. the more you have exchanged worse the position you're in. imagin after a series of exchanging he have 3 fighting units with 1 cleric left, up againsting your 1 fighting unit with 2 wards and a cleric. (adding a extra cleric would only make your situation worse, that means you would only have 6 mobile unit left against 9)

And of course, a considerable high level of tactical play is required when using a non-ward formation. because even though a non-ward formation would normally be highly flexible (it would be very easy to change your current formation to another e.g. away from your opponent's ward or main force), it would still be difficult to handle rush without a lighting ward. Players have trouble with close combat might find a non-ward formation difficult to play with.

[nads]

The newbie formation is fun to use. I've beaten golds with it before. My problem is I love my chanty/bw combo too much that I always go back home to her at the end of the day. *Suddenly his speech slows and he says in a monotone* There's...just...something...about................ ...

NAds (50/50) (Paralyzed)

[cuckoo]

I use to think wards were weak too, but I heard of people speaking great things of the barrier+enchantress combo, and of the joys of lightning wards.

So I had an experiment. I tried a form utilising cleric+chanty+barrier+lightning ward. Although I started winning more, I just thought that was because of more experience. Then I took out my wards.

The very next battle was against some low-rated newb, but even so I was amazed at how unconfident I was. Without my lightning ward, I felt weak and it was difficult keeping his units out of my form. Without my barrier, I just couldnt bring myself to move out weaker units to far, plus my enchantress couldnt just freeze anyone and get away with it.

I just felt too exposed and immediatly switched back to my ward form. Yup, to this day I only use six attcking units, and it works great. If you doubt me, come to Banff and we'll see.

EDIT: As for the newbie form, I really don't like it. My weak units (enchantress, pyros, witches, ect.) are exposed to easy scout snipings, and I find it's pretty easy to take it apart.

[sub the hendrix]

The only fun thing about the newbie form is playing godd players who expected an easy win and find themselves up against some skill instead. Other than that its pretty much worthless.

[BlackSyphon]

The only fun thing about the newbie form is playing godd players who expected an easy win and find themselves up against some skill instead. Other than that its pretty much worthless.

indeed :)

du

[pepperonio]

the newbie formation is very hard to play indeed. but it is the best (i think) if you wants a exciting game. the reason i'm not using it anymore (i'm still using a non-ward grey formation) is not because it's exposing the weak units (i can garantee that my weak units wouldn't be killed by opponent at beginning of the game unless he wanted to exchange), but the problem of cleric being killed at first move. if the cleric survived the 1st turn, a player hold and familiar with this formation would not have too much problem with rest of the game. but one point i have to admit is that it really takes time to master this formation.

[Bottle]

For the past 6 months, I've used a formation with 6 mobile damage units. I have lost twice in those 6 months. I have regularly taken out even the best players' 9 damage unit formations. The trick is not to go for the trading option, but instead to use your advantages. Your advantages are that you have a much stronger initial defensive position, so build on that. Then send out the big guns (knights and scout) to attack where the enemy is weak. That way, you won't end up trading units, but getting enemy units for no exchange (especially knights vs. pyros, which at short range is nothing less than a massacre).

No-ward formations, while indeed having more units, will find it hard to take out a well-organised defensive line unless all 9 units are in a rush one the same side. The lack of teleporters means that a solid knight wall can hold off anything, even mages. (You take a hit, but then move out and attack the mage, heal, attack the mage again and retreat. 2 hits from a knight kills a mage even if they are healed, and they won't recover in time. You've pulled back 1 of that damage unit difference and not lost any yourself.)

The best way to stop a bunch of marauding knights is with an enchantress, as nads says, and the best way to use a chanty is in conjunction with a BW (with 3 recovery it's pretty much vital). A LW prevents mages even coming close to you. A cleric is vital in any grey formation. So in summary, I'd use wards and non-damage units any day. In fact, I bet I could beat you with only 4 damage units (2 clerics, BW, LW, 2 chanties, 3 knights and scout).

[pepperonio]

:) ok come to armaggedonn sometimes and i'm pepperonio

[Bottle]

I don't play on n00b servers. Only Banff and Rev. :)

[Wayfaerer]

I've used a formation with 6 mobile damage units. I have lost twice in those 6 months.

Damn I should really be honoured then :p

[Bottle]

Twice with my grey formation, Wayf :p

[wolf rayne {D}]

lol, maybe i should try using the Grey form. more often.....
*thinks about it*

naww the set ive got is too good

[sub the hendrix]

In fact, I bet I could beat you with only 4 damage units (2 clerics, BW, LW, 2 chanties, 3 knights and scout).
I beat a guy on legends who used that form. We played again and he beat me. :p The ironic thing is that I kept my chanty alive longer than he kept both of his, and my witch was useful because I kept scout busy with a knight and LW in his face. But I see your point bottle, and actually that could be a pretty fun form to use, if done right.

[thash5000]

:rolleyes: I personally believed that ward is extremely useful, at least to me. I mean, ward can do a lot of damage to the opponents. Besides that, it can be used as a protection to your units, whether strong or not. I also like to use two clerics for two reasons. First, they can alternatively heal my units. Secondly, people will constantly want to destroy my two clerics. They will send their units to get them. Once they enter my field, oh boy, they are destroyed one after another.

[ent__89]

Whenever i see a double cleric formation my first thoughts are that it is one less unit to kill in midgame(or beginning) and that it is safe to exchange units(as i will end up with 1 more if it goes right). Also, i rarely try to kill any cleric, i usually go after mages and if my knight has no chance of getting back i will kill the cleric(s). While this is happening my oponent either is defending(making the double cleric almost useless) or attacking, which forces their units right toward my waiting chanty....

i have only been beaten by one double cleric, and i beat him with a similar formation(he had 3 witches in back with his clerics instead of 1) and it was mostly because i took them out with a knight rush that forced his offensive formation to try and be defensive....

[Bottle]

I've said this before, but if you're facing a 2 cleric formation, your opponent's strtength is his healing and his weakness is his attacking numbers. So don't play to his strength, play to his weakness.

If you can't kill a knight, don't try. Paralysing it effectively kills it in one hit if you have a BW. The units that can be killed include pyros and witches (2 hits by a knight even with healing), assassins (slightly harder but still possible) and scout (2 witch hits and a knight hit kill if even if healed twice). That just leaves knights. If you're attacking, you can pick off those units with your own knights and witches, and then mop up the three knights with the chanty, without even touching the clerics.

Of course, if the clerics are open to attack, you might as well attack them. Killing one often makes your opponent panic, because he's not used to operating with only 1.

[Vincent]

That's very true Bottle.Your opponent will panic and try to run or protect it's other cleric giving you time to finish off the other units.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Man, I love my double-Cleric forms.

As well as my wards. The Lightning Ward is the single most powerful unit in the game and will always be treated as such. As a unit, it is the only thing with the ability to kill a Pyromancer in one hit, regardless of healing, and bring a Knight to an easy kill (after a LW attack, two Scout/Assassin attacks will kill it; even after healing, this is true after a pyromancer attack). Keeping it in the front and center of the field gives my units an easy retreat and divides the battle into the two sides of the field, where my units are better placed. However, since I am in Double-Cleric formation, I am short an attacking unit, and would easily trade this should I get an Assassin drop.

Double Clerics are excellent, especially end-game. The ability to heal every other turn (something invaluable to Knight-based grey forms) is negated by the lack of an attacking unit, and vice-versa; if you're a skilled player, you can make the pro outweigh the con; if you suck, the con outweighs the pro. The extra Cleric is an easy way to bring in Knights and Scouts to your grounds, where they are ripe for the killing. (No, I'm not kidding; about 60% of the time, the first move of my opponent includes moving their Scout within attacking range of my Cleric... As well as within the attacking range of my Knight. Scout problem: Solved before it gets a second attack.)

Of course, I've played this game long enough to know I could go without a Cleric and still win, granted enough melee attacking units (and not mage ones; you cannot rely on a mage bomb without heavy healing power or a DSM). Clerics are only useful if you use them up until the point they die; if you neglect use of your Cleric and let a vital Knight fall prey to your enemy, then what's the point of even having it? You could just back up the Knights with extra manpower instead.

[sub the hendrix]

Of course, I've played this game long enough to know I could go without a Cleric and still win

If you see that it is inevitable that you are going to lose your cleric, you have a few things that are important to do.

1) If you have them, save barrier ward and chanty. Instant kills (paralyzing) may be your only chance for a win, as a cleric cannot help a paralyzed unit.

2) Make the cost high for them. Dont let them get off easy killing your cleric. Make it so they have to lose something almost as dear (a scout or knight if possible) Failing that, make sure they lose a bunch of mages in the process of taking out your cleric.

3) Take a look at the whole board. If most of their attacking units are over by your cleric, or at least on your side of the board, this generally means that their own cleric is wide open. Take advantage of this. Theres nothing like distracting a cleric killer by attacking his own cleric.

[Lonely Tylenol]

2) Make the cost high for them. Dont let them get off easy killing your cleric. Make it so they have to lose something almost as dear (a scout or knight if possible) Failing that, make sure they lose a bunch of mages in the process of taking out your cleric.

3) Take a look at the whole board. If most of their attacking units are over by your cleric, or at least on your side of the board, this generally means that their own cleric is wide open. Take advantage of this. Theres nothing like distracting a cleric killer by attacking his own cleric.

Now, I'll have you know that I'm a proud participator of the above (#2 and #3). What, you think I let people HAVE my Clerics? Anyone who gets close enough to get at one of my Clerics generally dies. Case in point: The Scout.

In some cases, though (E.G. gold-fighting), it's inevitable that I will lose my Cleric without him putting so much as a muddie on my side of the field (rue the day the Golem Ambusher was created); in this case, I make sure to attack whatever's close enough to attack my Clerics, basically, rush in and kill every range unit I can get my hands on. (Scouts go first.)

That's what I meant by Clerics make handy distractions. Naturally, while defending it, you should attempt to keep your Cleric alive as long as possible, but if the death of one or both is inevitable, fall back on plan B: Make it as costly for them as possible. The biggest virtue is the extra healing capabilities of two Clerics; the biggest vice is the lack of an attacking unit. The easiest way to dismantle a two-Cleric strategy is to get rid of the virtue, and all that is left is the vice. Any person using two Clerics knows, of course, that if you kill attacking units of your enemy, then it evens out the field, if not worsening the situation for your opponent (depending on what units you kill).

Naturally, I, as any double-Cleric user would, kept that in mind, sub. :)

EDIT: By the way, I must have missed this, but...

In fact, I bet I could beat you with only 4 damage units (2 clerics, BW, LW, 2 chanties, 3 knights and scout).

3 Knights + 1 Scout + 1 LW = 5 damage units...

[pepperonio]

so many ward and double clerics players! :) i REALLY wanted to see how powerful this formation can be, when a real double-clerics expert is playing it (i don't remember i have lost to anyone using that formation yet). :)

[Bottle]

Ok, fine. 4 mobile damage units. Anyone with any sense won't move into LW range anyway, unless they are trying to lure it into an attack to allow a mage (usually a witch) to get past it.

What, you think I let people HAVE my Clerics? Anyone who gets close enough to get at one of my Clerics generally dies. Case in point: The Scout.
All very well, but what if your opponent isn't a n00b? A good player will see double clerics and go on the attack with 2 knights and scout immediately (opp side at least). If the scout isn't used, but kept back for dealing with the chanty, only having 4 effective "wall" units means you're bound to be leaving a hole in your defensive line somewhere. If not on the flank that the 2 knights and scout attack, then the opposite flank (an assassin is often used to get round the LW in 1 move an reach the unguarded side). No matter how many BWs and clerics you have, you won't stop a knight that gets into the clerics. Of course, the knight will take out the chanty first (often dying in the process due to lack of healing), but then there's another knight ready to break through the same hole, and now the scout can help it out without fear of the knights being para'ed. If you're trying to protect the clerics from a knight that's next to them, there's no way you're going to waste time going for the scout, which would tke 3 hits anyway, and could retreat to BW range using it's long movement.

So let's say the 2 knights get the chanty and clerics (which usually happens unless you get 0 side blocks). You now have 3 knights, scout, LW, maybe BW (if it wasn't killed trying to save the clerics), and perhaps a witch or assassin. And no clerics. You're facing a scout, knight, assassin, chanty, witch, BW, LW, and cleric. If the scout dies it's game over, and with a witch and knight around with no healing ability, it's quite likely to happen.

Maybe it's just me, but I always prefer the extra wall unit to block off a knight attack, which remains the deadliest threat in the grey game other than the chanty. Scouts are only misused by newbs in going after the cleric. Good players won't put them in harms way unless they'll kill the chanty and a cleric for it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

All very well, but what if your opponent isn't a n00b? A good player will see double clerics and go on the attack with 2 knights and scout immediately (opp side at least). If the scout isn't used, but kept back for dealing with the chanty, only having 4 effective "wall" units means you're bound to be leaving a hole in your defensive line somewhere.

I use a spread rush, not a turtle. My Clerics are in opposite corners; to get both, you'd have to either divide your forces to get them, or successfully drive one line through both Clerics. Trust me, I would find it VERY hard to flank someone who quite literally had forces all over the place (I use the spread so I CAN flank either side, by the way).

Good luck!

No matter how many BWs and clerics you have, you won't stop a knight that gets into the clerics. Of course, the knight will take out the chanty first (often dying in the process due to lack of healing), but then there's another knight ready to break through the same hole, and now the scout can help it out without fear of the knights being para'ed.

What chanty?

So let's say the 2 knights get the chanty and clerics (which usually happens unless you get 0 side blocks). You now have 3 knights, scout, LW, maybe BW (if it wasn't killed trying to save the clerics), and perhaps a witch or assassin. And no clerics. You're facing a scout, knight, assassin, chanty, witch, BW, LW, and cleric. If the scout dies it's game over, and with a witch and knight around with no healing ability, it's quite likely to happen.

My strat has two Clerics, two DMWs, three Knights, one Assassin, one LW, and one Scout. There are NO BW/Chanties involved.

[Bottle]

Fine. Then there's absolutely nothing to stop the knight killing the cleric then. :)

We really must play sometime. I'm on Banff right now if you're interested.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Fine. Then there's absolutely nothing to stop the knight killing the cleric then.

The strategy is designed so you'll have to plow through two Knights and a DMW to get to the Cleric on one side, and one Knight, one Assassin, and one DMW to get the Cleric on the other side. The Clerics are on opposite corners, each placed so the only things that could get a direct hit are a Golem Ambusher and a perfectly-placed Scout. My own Scout is in the center, so he can be applied to either or both sides if needed. The one thing stopping the Knight from killing the Cleric would be the quick death of the Knight (/Scout/DMW).

The ONLY person I can recall being able to wipe out my Clerics without heavier losses than it is worth in recent times would be 343_Guilty_Spark, who had fought me before and probably knew my placement (since he had a Golem Ambusher and a Mud Golem poised directly before my Clerics, and a Scout on either side, with just the LOS to get at 'em). Even with the perfect placement of all four of his units, he lost one Scout and the Golem Ambusher very quickly, and his Mud Golem and other Scout soon followed (in the order from left division to right division). Of course, he got away with the rest of his units intact, since they all happened to be Knights, Dragon Tyrant, and a Cleric. The ability to heal was, ironically, my downfall.

Anyone else who has tried has usually ended up killing my Clerics, only to have the one unit that does the job on my side of the field, and the three or four on their own side, if they ever try to rush me. Naturally, there are exceptions, but I do my best to minimalize them.

[pepperonio]

I still think combat piece is the best. couldn't do without 9 of them.

[BlackSyphon]

well, I personally try not to go as low as four. In a no drop grey game, I house LW BW, and Cleric, and on army LW BW and 2 Clerics. I have yet to be beaten with either, so its really a matter of style. And, if yiou do choose 8 or 9 damage units, you HAVE to go on the offensive. You simply do not have enough support units to supplement and sustain your troops.

du

[Hoolwath]

i ve lost only once to a 2-cleric forms - so ne1 eho wanna try PM me pls i look forward to a perfect game

[Bottle]

All the people who've never lost to 2 clerics / never lost with their current form... you obviously aren't playing anyone with any skill. :)

The less combat units you have, the more you need to go on the offensive in my opinion, merely because you don't have enough units to block an attacker from your fragile units such as clerics, BW and chanties. Of course, attacking is always the best policy, but if you have more units you have more chance of holding off an attacker.