The Anti-Ambusher Confederation

[FryLock]

Ok. I'll say it. I am sick and tired of the damn ambusher. It's all about deployment and luck with it, not about skill. I used to love rush games, where the idea was to build a form that didn't require luck or 1st turn. The ambusher has ruined all that.
With the wisp, you can take steps to protect your cleric. But there's almost no hiding it from the ambusher. People put it on the front lines to kill the cleric, nothing more.
I know, this thread won't do anything. People will still keep using the damn thing and sucking a lot of the fun and strategy from the game.
But feel free to post here if you feel the same way. Probably nothing will happen. Probably this thread will just die away.
But I want to bring strategy back to the game. I want rush games where clerics last past the damn 2nd turn. Maybe that can start here. Maybe it doesn't. In any case...have at it.

Sign here if you hate ambushers.

[.Vash.]

fry ill be there first to agree that damn thing has ruined alot of my plans in the game.Its easy to kill but for the time that its on there it can kill a cleric/wisp pretty fast.

So ya I would say that its alittle cheap.

Nice post fry man.

[Terps rock]

i like them but i still would rather have them out of the game, but while they are here ill use them

[zzzaacckk]

I hate ambushers. The best way to scew them is to shrub all 4 squares around that and therefore they cannot escape without help from another unit.

[da1n]

*torches the ambusher* :cool:

[Cross Punisher]

*agrees with everything said so far.

I've just decided not to even use mine anymore. I don't try to enforce what I think on others around me (Not talking about you FryLock), but it always puts a grin on my face when I defeat a bomber who has an ambusher right up front using my defensive non-turtle setup.

[bludhoundz]

We can agree to 'no busher' games.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Sign here if you hate ambushers.

I'm in. A non-LoS attack with heavy range that could get your Cleric, potentially while simultaneously being protected by the capability to NOT be heavily within enemy lines kills all means of strategy behind it. As a grey, the only, and I mean ONLY defense against a Golem Ambusher is to Barrier it, which negates all strategic advantage a Barrier Ward would have otherwise, or to kill it, which takes FOUR hits from a Knight/DMW (three DMW) with a heal, and will ONLY take three hits with a heal if it's Witch/LW/Knight or the equivalent.

Well, that or cower in fear of any grey willing to use it.

No more Ambushers! You have a Wisp and a Muddie; use them!

[Terps rock]

I'm in. A LoS attack with heavy range equivalent.

its a non-los attack and plz stay out of it your not a gold and you DONT know about the strategy.

[Lonely Tylenol]

its a non-los attack and plz stay out of it your not a gold and you DONT know about the strategy.

Whoops, my bad. I must have forgotten to type the "non" part of it. :cool: Have a chill pill. Typographical errors happen all the time.

By the way, I hereby neg-rep you for your blunt arrogance. Being gold doesn't mean squat if you don't know what to do with it. Besides, this is a petition for Golem Ambusher haters, not some place where you can flaunt your ability to spent $5 a month over greys... And I hate Golem Ambushers. I'm entitled to this thread every bit as much as you are, Terps.

[emerald slasher]

die u damn ambusher die

[Terps rock]

you are basing what you say on others there is no way you can say the a bushy screws up turtling because you don't turtle with gold units vs gold units, so you don't know how it works.

I thought i understood it, but when i became gold it was like re-learning the game.

Another thing wisp and muddie have nothing to do with bushy they both are nothing like that it would have been smarter to say you have 2 scouts, but you wouldn't know cuz your not gold.

[Lonely Tylenol]

you are basing what you say on others there is no way you can say the a bushy screws up turtling because you don't turtle with gold units vs gold units, so you don't know how it works.

What EXACTLY does that have to do with it having the capability to bypass LoS at heavy range, thus allowing it to stay at the front line and kill my Clerics? I'm a rusher. My particular strat is reliant on having at least ONE Cleric through a good proportion of the game, the Golem Ambusher can ruin that in two attacks without even having to do so much as move another unit.

Thus, my complaints are perfectly relevant to the discussion, as it involves the unfair and unavoidable advantage the Golem Ambusher has against me. By the way... Where'd you get the idea to mention TURTLES? I didn't mention turtles at all in my post.

Another thing wisp and muddie have nothing to do with bushy they both are nothing like that it would have been smarter to say you have 2 scouts, but you wouldn't know cuz your not gold.

Yes, I [would] know. I related the Poison Wisp and the Mud Golem to the Golem Ambusher because both are put on the frontline to bypass enemy frontline units and attack the Cleric. In the average rush, they both serve pretty much the same perpose as a Golem Ambusher, namely the elimination of Clerics. HOWEVER, unlike the Golem Ambusher, the Poison Wisp and the Mud Golem CAN be prevented by proper application of your own units. The Golem Ambusher, on the other hand, is just this vicious, pain-in-the-rear Cleric killer without any real strategy behind it--just put it on the front ranks, and bypass any and all defensive strategy your opponent utilizes. What else is there to say? The mention of the wisp and muddie are perfectly relevant... If you want to continue with it, then rag on Frylock too... No, no, wait.... He's gold.

Next time, Terps, remember to read past the typo on the first sentence to get what I actually mean. :p

[Terps rock]

WAIT u rush, and your grey HAHA ok i get ur point now u rush.... :D

[FryLock]

God dangit you 2, take this somewhere else. This here is for ambusher bashing!

[da1n]

but you wouldn't know cuz your not gold.

We don't need to be gold to know that the busher is worthy of a flamefest :mad:

[Dove]

God dangit you 2, take this somewhere else. This here is for ambusher bashing!

*signs*

I hate it. It's absolutely anti-strategy, it's not that wonderful of a unit either, so in my opinion it just gives the g00b (gold n00b, in my terms) a chance to rush effectively only because it, coupled with a Scout and Mud, can take a Cleric out fast. I was too excited about a new unit to dis the amby at first, but it's time. It's really done a lot to hurt the game. I complement the Wisp however... it's pro-strategy and doesn't have the same ability to be entirely overpowering.

Down with the Golem Ambusher.

[Wayfaerer]

Dang Fry, you used that nub cannon on me :p

[Ambassador]

I'm with you all the way Fry. Why not add a Dark Magic Witch with a range of 10 while you're at it to make absolutely sure that every cleric is dead after each player has had one freaking turn?

[Kyir]

i hate the busher, the funny thing is no one i play knows how to use it, they put it back and try knight front shots

[Wayfaerer]

i hate the busher, the funny thing is no one i play knows how to use it, they put it back and try knight front shots

That's the pro's way :cool:

[Terps rock]

if and when i use i have next to wisp and send wisp in they attack wisp bushy moves kills cleric then regroup focus attack as they are killed then pounce

[Lonely Tylenol]

WAIT u rush, and your grey HAHA ok i get ur point now u rush....

Aside from the laughing part... Yeah. And I'll let that part slide. Since I don't know if it's a compliment or an insult. And this isn't the thread for me to piss and moan about whether it is anyway. :D

i hate the busher, the funny thing is no one i play knows how to use it, they put it back and try knight front shots

Well, playing the GA in the back, or hidden within a turtle, would seem to me like the proper and fair way to use a busher, instead of a cheap Cleric kill... But the problem with that is simple: Nobody bothers with it. :confused:

[FryLock]

WF, I used the busher against you because sadly, do it's n00b-tacular use, most rushes have one. If you want your rush to be able to stack up as well, you generally need one. It's about fighting fire with fire...I have a few forms that are sans-ambusher, but as much as I dislike it, I realize the necessity of using it when the other players do too.

But I would be more than happy to agree to no-ambusher games. In fact, I would be ecstatic.

[Terps rock]

i love bushy, cuz hes so useful with the trick that fry used on me. But if he were gone i wouldn't care

[Wayfaerer]

In rush vs. rush games, the busher is usually the most useless unit. :rolleyes:

[FryLock]

:rolleyes:

So if it's useless, then why do you ask people not to use it when they play you?

The ambusher is definitely not useless in rush games, just like in any other game, it's set up to kill the cleric in combo with scout/wisp/mud. I'd say ambushers are most useless when they're stoned in turtle vs. turtle games.

If you want to see a few rushes that use the ambusher well against other rushes (again..only for the non-tactical pupose of getting a lucky-side cleric kill) play zarack24, me, Jonspen, etc...the list goes on and on. It's a terrible unit that has made cleric protection very, very difficult.

[Wayfaerer]

:rolleyes:

So if it's useless, then why do you ask people not to use it when they play you?

Because I don't rush, isn't that obvious :cool:

[zzzaacckk]

you should make it the ABC the name is more catchy... the anti busher confederation...

[Lonely Tylenol]

you should make it the ABC the name is more catchy... the anti busher confederation...

Great! Now we only need to get a publishing copyright from ABC TV station and we're set. :cool:

[RKO21]

EDIT: Cleared!

[Wolfman]

i sometimes wonder why they call this unit "ambusher".... it does not ambush at all.... in fact.... it throws stones at ya at broad-day-light n u cant do shit about it.

:)

wolfy

[ent__89]

I also hate the ambusher, as many have said there isnt much strategy involved in the unit at all. Because i am indeed a grey, i have limited experience with it, but from what i can tell a good grey turtle stands a good chance at fending it off because we are better built for the situation. Although the double scout follow-up is a pain-in-the-ass. The times i have gone against it i did well only because of my LW and witch positioning, o and i had a BW waiting as a last resort...

[Dove]

B-Ward is a good savior against it if you can L-Ward it and kill it off quickly. Against Scout shots, Mud quakes, even the Wisp, it's hard to keep that Ward on long enough to save the Cleric though, plus the fact that I've always hated using B-Wards with gold setups.

Although I must say a grey turtle that is well defended against first to third turn LOS shots can probably withstand it if played well.

[thefreezing]

When ambusher first came out, I was a HUGE ambusher fan and used it frontline to attack turtlers/rushers' clerics, then for a while I noticed how I could make a "power" turtle with the ambusher in it by setting it upfront hoping to get the same side as my opponent's set-up. Many natural turtlers complained about my "power" turtle set-up and told me their views on the ambusher which changed my perspective on the ambusher. Now I don't use nor like the ambusher anymore nowadays. I use wisp sometimes in my rush set-up.
I do NOT like the ambusher anymore.
Signee - thefreezing

[Krome]

Ok. I'll say it. I am sick and tired of the damn ambusher. It's all about deployment and luck with it, not about skill. I used to love rush games, where the idea was to build a form that didn't require luck or 1st turn. The ambusher has ruined all that.
With the wisp, you can take steps to protect your cleric. But there's almost no hiding it from the ambusher. People put it on the front lines to kill the cleric, nothing more.
I know, this thread won't do anything. People will still keep using the damn thing and sucking a lot of the fun and strategy from the game.
But feel free to post here if you feel the same way. Probably nothing will happen. Probably this thread will just die away.
But I want to bring strategy back to the game. I want rush games where clerics last past the damn 2nd turn. Maybe that can start here. Maybe it doesn't. In any case...have at it.

Sign here if you hate ambushers.

I certainly agree, they take the skill and strategy out of a turtle game too. it sucks.

[MANSLAUGHTER1]

I don't like using it because if its in a bad position your screwed and requires no skill at all.

[max2k106]

I hate bushers.

-Max

[DeadFishGuy]

I can't play golds anymore without risking playing a bushy user and getting a completely one sided game.

I know a great way to use them to the advantage of a turtle, but with its current abilities it's a more attractive option to put it up front and dispose of the enemy cleric.

It sickens me.

[Terps rock]

the bushy does take skill, you try keeping it out of harms way while hitting units in the back for 100%

[Saint00551]

I certainly agree, they take the skill and strategy out of a turtle game too. it sucks.
I agree as well. I might as well not even have a Cleric in my setup. The Cleric just dies the second turn. By the time you're done killing the Ambusher, all your other units are killed. It is pretty much a one-sided game..

[bludhoundz]

My friend's dad works at ABC.

And I'll sign up Fry.

[cbsurfinggod]

man i hate those dam things to i think people only use them for easy wins and fast stats but just remember stats isn't anything anymore it is the skill of the player. well i lost 5 battles today cause of those dam ga's when i should have won will some one please take them out of the game

[DeadFishGuy]

the bushy does take skill, you try keeping it out of harms way while hitting units in the back for 100%
Considering clerics don't block and that we have a barrier ward, I'm pretty sure you're exaggerating.

[MtSlayer]

I've hated the idea of the ambusher before it even came out, and have never used one.

[sub the hendrix]

*signs name ecstatically*
Everything bad about the busher has already been said, so I feel no need to eloquently bash it, instead i composed a few rhyming verses. Enjoy :D

There once was a man named Seed
Who seemed to think that there was a need
for a unit that could kill a cleric with ease
It takes little skill
for a turtler its a pill
We beg you get rid of the ambusher please?!!!

[max2k106]

*signs name ecstatically*
Everything bad about the busher has already been said, so I feel no need to eloquently bash it, instead i composed a few rhyming verses. Enjoy :D

There once was a man named Seed
Who seemed to think that there was a need
for a unit that could kill a cleric with ease
It takes little skill
for a turtler its a pill
We beg you get rid of the ambusher please?!!!

I'll give you some rep for trying :rolleyes:

[sub the hendrix]

Thanks, it was late at night so I should get some credit even for a half-assed poem right?

[Kyir]

Well, playing the GA in the back, or hidden within a turtle, would seem to me like the proper and fair way to use a busher, instead of a cheap Cleric kill... But the problem with that is simple: Nobody bothers with it. :confused:

the point it sucks when its not unfair

[FryLock]

I am glad to see this is taking off. While on a grey name earlier today, I saw 2 golds agree to a no-ambusher game. My heart soared. :D

Keep it up. We'll get rid of this damn thing yet!

[bludhoundz]

Lets all send hate emails to Bills and Seed about the ambusher!

[search66]

I'm with ya Fry. I hate nothing more than the wisp -> busher combo. It's the most non-skill victory ever.

[eternal fire]

i hate bushers

I personnally like the ambusher, Simply because it is useful for hitting spellcasters protected by shrubs wall. But I do admit that putting a golem ambusher on the front row is almost like cheating, it become too easy to get the cleric. But I disagree in getting rid of it, but instead we can make Seed make something up that forbid the golem ambusher to be placed in the front 3 rows on sett ups, this way it can prevent the cleric dying too soon.


So do all who see such time, but it is not for them to decide
-Grandlf the Gray

[cuckoo]

*Signs*

Death to the Hambusher!

[BlackSyphon]

wisp > ambusher

wait guys...the wisp cant win a game can it...hmmm

anyways *signs*

du

[emerald slasher]

signs again and starts to right a potest to ban the ambusher from the game :)

[Red Fire]

I agree the GA sucks. I've lost so many games b/c of my cleric dieing on the second turn and there is no way to prevent it, it sucks. All I can think of is if Seed ever reads these forums is to give the GA an attack line of sight (same as the scout) that way as least our clerics have a chance.

-Red

[.Vash.]

You may think im stupid but...I have thrown my anbusher in the trash its no longer with me ^_^.When you playing turtle vrs turtle with a anbushers theres no point in a turtle becuase its so cheap v.v

[sub the hendrix]

I agree the GA sucks. I've lost so many games b/c of my cleric dieing on the second turn and there is no way to prevent it, it sucks. All I can think of is if Seed ever reads these forums is to give the GA an attack line of sight (same as the scout) that way as least our clerics have a chance.

-Red
That would get rid of its only advantage, duh. The point is that the only reason it is worthi using is a cheap one. LOS would make it into a completely inferior version of scout.

[theAdmiralty]

*signs name*

[Amaroth]

I find this whole thing amusing. When rushes first started getting big, all of us Turtlers were complaining about how it ruins the game and puts the game more in the newb's favor reguardless of his/her skill. The rushers just told us to shut up. Now all the rushers are bitching about something new that they don't like.

I'm going to tell all of you what you told me a while back.

It's part of the game. Live with it.

[FryLock]

Actually, if you notice, most golds who have signed here are not n00bs...contrary to what you may think, designing a good rush took quite a bit of skill...unlike now.
Most of those who have signed here are at least semi-vets. I myself, and approaching a year of TAO. As someone who understands both the turtle and the rush, I think I have a right to post this.
So take your nay-saying elsewhere!

[emerald slasher]

ive played for 1.5 years about :)

[Wayfaerer]

I dumped my ambusher on rev :cool:

[xerent]

The Golem Ambusher is a fair piece.

In terms of balance, it fits in nicely with the rest of the TAO units, and is not 'Broken' or 'Overpowered' to that great of an extent.

The problem is this:

The game isn't finished.

Think of it like Rock Paper Scissors. Right now, there is a Rock (Turtle) and a Paper(Rush/Anti Turtle), but there are no Scissors. There aren't the needed variety of units available to accomplish a well rounded game. The solution is not to bitch about the Ambusher and get rid of it, the solution is to add a bit more to the game, so that everything ties together nicely.

Stop whining about Seed implimenting the Golem Ambusher, and start whining that the Unit Suggestion thread is never looked at.

[FryLock]

Well, we're waiting. If something comes along that helps keep a cleric alive in the face of all the new rush units, I'll agree that we've got some scissors. Right now though, all we have are paper clerics that get hit by rocks. Quite literally, I might add. :)

I hope some balance comes soon.

[xerent]

Maybe not so much an additional defense for a cleric, but an acceptable substitute might be nice.

The problem is your turtle formations act on a single point of failure. Rush formations do not.

If you ask me, using the above fact, Rush formations impliment more strategy, not less.

[emerald slasher]

crap xerent makes sense and is making me think :(

[FryLock]

I disagree. It takes very little strategy to set up an ambusher and hope you get proper side.

Compare that to opposite side turtles, where neither side has an immediate advantage and must work hard to un-stone, kill scouts, what have you. That kind of play takes a lot of maneuvering and skill, whereas setting up an ambusher on the front lines does not. Especially if you team with a wisp, scout or mud. The cleric across from that WILL die unless the rusher is very inept. Before the ambusher, it was possible, albeit difficult to beat a rush with a turtle. Now, it's almost IMpossible.

Skill? Hah.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I find this whole thing amusing. When rushes first started getting big, all of us Turtlers were complaining about how it ruins the game and puts the game more in the newb's favor reguardless of his/her skill. The rushers just told us to shut up. Now all the rushers are bitching about something new that they don't like.

I'm going to tell all of you what you told me a while back.

It's part of the game. Live with it.

The only rusher pissing and moaning about the Golem Ambusher here is me, and that's because I'm grey and have no defense against it (playing Gold Vs. Grey, I'm entirely reliant on having two Clerics).

I played for near a year before I quit for awhile, I come back, and Grey Vs. Gold is COMPLETELY screwed over. At one point, it was fair, but now... Listen, every gold turtle and every grey (save for a few exceptions) is completely reliant on having the Cleric. Not only does the Golem Ambusher ruin the only salvation of these groups (all greys and gold turtles), but it relies ENTIRELY on luck and placement to do so!

Neg-rep for not reading the thread before you post.

[xerent]

I disagree. It takes very little strategy to set up an ambusher and hope you get proper side.

Compare that to opposite side turtles, where neither side has an immediate advantage and must work hard to un-stone, kill scouts, what have you. That kind of play takes a lot of maneuvering and skill, whereas setting up an ambusher on the front lines does not. Especially if you team with a wisp, scout or mud. The cleric across from that WILL die unless the rusher is very inept. Before the ambusher, it was possible, albeit difficult to beat a rush with a turtle. Now, it's almost IMpossible.

Skill? Hah.

How is it strategically adventageous to set up a formation which ABSOLUTLY DEPENDS ON THE SURVIVAL OF ONE VERY FRAGILE UNIT?

Especially when you know the chances of that one unit dying are so great? Of course the cleric will die, You still have 9 unit slots, or are they just filler space?

[Lonely Tylenol]

How is it strategically adventageous to set up a formation which ABSOLUTLY DEPENDS ON THE SURVIVAL OF ONE VERY FRAGILE UNIT?

All formations find the Cleric highly beneficial. The Cleric, being the only healing unit, is often the only thing between your Dragon Tyrant/other high-damage unit and their death.

Without having the Cleric for even just a little bit, you do not have the benefit of healing... At all... And you get whipped, bad. The reasoning behind this is, if you have injured units, and no Cleric, then unless you base your entire strat around their protection, you're going to lose them. If you do, then you aren't going to kill much.

Especially when you know the chances of that one unit dying are so great?

BECAUSE of the Golem Ambusher.

Of course the cleric will die, You still have 9 unit slots, or are they just filler space?

They're filler space now, because the GA will pretty much provide a cheap wipe of all opponent's capability to heal, which, just like the Stone Golem to a gold turtle, is a necessity (unless you build it in Grey-like formation, instead of a corner cluster).

And there really isn't strategy involved in it, either. You put it in the front rank, hope the enemy is in the same place, attack, kill, the Golem Ambusher then becomes a target. No strategy; unit placement and luck is all that applies.

[Duffman]

I have to disagree with you Xe. While it's not that the buwhy is overpowered it's just it can be used in a way that negates the use of skill to kill your opponents cleric.

However on the same note I'm not one to complain about such things yet rather try (hopelessly) to defend against them. Victory is so much harder to get when you must thwart your opponents offense rather than use offense as your defense. But as Tony Robbins says, real pride comes doesn't come from achieving, it comes from overcoming impossible odds. :)

Also is it ok If i use my Buwhy at the back of my setup? I just found out the formation i was using only had 9 units so i had to squash another one in...

[monkus]

Xerent: Turtles strength comes from synergy of units, unlike rushes, which is just a mash of units together that all attack at once. The nine other slots are specifically made to defend the cleric, but that becomes impossible when a unit can shoot 6 squares and has no LOS. It would be rather different if I had a cleric with absolutely no defense and then was complaining about losing it. The ambusher by itself is stoppable; while it's range is enourmous and its hp colossal, you can still use a few combos to kill it. However, if any other unit has a path to the cleric, quite likely considering the 2 scouts, wisp, muddy, pyros, etc., then you're doomed. Either they attack with the ambusher first, in which case you have to spend time stopping the other unit(s), so the ambusher simply shoots again in 3 turns, or they attack with the other unit(s) first, in which case you have to somehow find a way to protect the cleric from a 6 square unstoppable attack.

Xerent, what's your solution? That we should just all switch to 9 attack unit power forms that have unrestrainable attack power, and just see who can deal more damage first? Not that I have anything against rush games or the like, but any solution that requires me to totally conform to standards clearly isn't an acceptable solution.


Rock Paper Scissors. The number of Rock Paper Scissors analogies I've heard about this game... but, with all due respect Xerent, I feel they don't hold weight. It's fine if we want to talk rock paper scissors in terms of advantages, we're not necessarily looking for a game where every single form is totally equal. However, one must wonder, first of all, how long will we be waiting for this scissors? The game has no balance if there is one form that is inherently dominant, because anyone that is unable to conform to that formation as well will simply lose consistently. Not only that, but how far will this Rock/Paper/Scissors go? Will turtles be totally incapacitated against rushes? As of now, that is almost the case, considering a turtler needs to be about 50% higher than a rusher to claim victory.


Aside from this, attacking the cleric is not the only reason I hate the ambusher. His ability to break focus is unrivaled, as no unit can stop him and no trap can be set because he doesn't move in close like the muddy. So yeah, sign me up for busher hating :cool:

[roody poo]

I am not signing this b/c I don't hate it enough just yet...however I think that some people do use it cheaply.

Example:
If you ever get on and decide to use the default setup you will be amazed at the amount of greys that have a witch setup in the middle front line just hoping to get first move. Now I am not saying the witch is overpowering, however it does pose a problem when they get first move and know where to put it. Just like with the Ambusher, I think it has it's place but front line for a cheap shot shouldn't be it. I would support not allowing it to be on the front two lines.

[bludhoundz]

To Xerent : A turtle does not need the cleric for the whole game to win. I've played turtle games where I've never healed, or won without the cleric.

[doubledown]

Roody has a great point there. Its not the unit per say, but how that unit is used. Having a witch set up for a cleric burn is pretty cheap, but that doesnt make the witch itself a cheap unit. The busher set up for an easy cleric kill may be cheap, but that doesnt make the busher a cheap unit either. It still has plenty of weaknesses that can be exploited.

[nomar]

Is this an anti-bush thread? If so, why did he get re-elected then?

[FryLock]

There's room for all kinds of bush-hating here.

And blud, you may have turtled and won without healing, but was it against a rush? Probably not, unless the rusher was a moron.

Xerent, you completely ignored my point about positioning. Again I say, turtle vs. turtle shows skill in maneuvering. No one starts with a marked advantage, you have to take it without opening yourself up. Rush vs. rush USED to have quite a bit of strategy, too. How to protect the cleric while still giving yourself a chance to go on the offensive. Now, with the ambusher, NO cleric is safe, and it's started to become a game of who gets 1st turn and lucky side.
Most good rushers I know take pride in building sets that don't rely on 1st turn or lucky side, but the ambusher is skewing all that.

[cbsurfinggod]

. Now, with the ambusher, NO cleric is safe, and it's started to become a game of who gets 1st turn and lucky side.
Most good rushers I know take pride in building sets that don't rely on 1st turn or lucky side, but the ambusher is skewing all that.
good point there frylock i would have to agree with that now all the game has become is luck and not skill even though a little bit if any skill is now reqired.

[banditto]

ok all i read was the first page so heres my vote, ambushers no, i only like em if u put em behind ur knights so its not used for cleric killing that way its more fun, and i love watching him throw rocks :) it makes me feel so accomplishing...

[xerent]

I'm tired of people saying I'm missing the point. I'll quote everything, and address it a piece at a time.

All formations find the Cleric highly beneficial.

Except rushes. They find them marginally beneficial.

Without having the Cleric for even just a little bit, you do not have the benefit of healing... At all... And you get whipped, bad. The reasoning behind this is, if you have injured units, and no Cleric, then unless you base your entire strat around their protection, you're going to lose them. If you do, then you aren't going to kill much.

You're thinking about this wrong. The object of the game isn't to keep your units alive, it's to kill the opponents units. Granted, your own unit preservation helps in this task, but your knights hit for just as much weather they are at one HP or fifty.

The problem is you're basing your entire strategy on unit preservation. They're basing their entire strategy on killing your units. I'll give you a guess as to which strategy, based on the above fact, will win the game.

BECAUSE of the Golem Ambusher. (In response to the fact that the cleric dies easily because of the Golem Ambusher)

Of course. Stop being silly.

They're filler space now, because the GA will pretty much provide a cheap wipe of all opponent's capability to heal, which, just like the Stone Golem to a gold turtle, is a necessity (unless you build it in Grey-like formation, instead of a corner cluster).

Which is exactly why your strategy sucks. Because when your cleric dies, all your units have the potential of styrofoam peanuts.

And there really isn't strategy involved in it, either. You put it in the front rank, hope the enemy is in the same place, attack, kill, the Golem Ambusher then becomes a target. No strategy; unit placement and luck is all that applies.

There isn't as much cat-and-mouse action going on. You say that unit placement and luck is all that applies. That sounds much like the strategy used in Turtle games. Unit placement, and luck.

I've addressed all your questions. But you avoided mine. I'll say it one more time, to make sure you get it.

How is using a formation that has one point of failure strategically greater against a formation that does not?

-=-=-=-=-

Xerent: Turtles strength comes from synergy of units, unlike rushes, which is just a mash of units together that all attack at once. The nine other slots are specifically made to defend the cleric, but that becomes impossible when a unit can shoot 6 squares and has no LOS.

Exactly my point.

It would be rather different if I had a cleric with absolutely no defense and then was complaining about losing it. The ambusher by itself is stoppable; while it's range is enourmous and its hp colossal, you can still use a few combos to kill it. However, if any other unit has a path to the cleric, quite likely considering the 2 scouts, wisp, muddy, pyros, etc., then you're doomed. Either they attack with the ambusher first, in which case you have to spend time stopping the other unit(s), so the ambusher simply shoots again in 3 turns, or they attack with the other unit(s) first, in which case you have to somehow find a way to protect the cleric from a 6 square unstoppable attack.

Agreed.

Xerent, what's your solution? That we should just all switch to 9 attack unit power forms that have unrestrainable attack power, and just see who can deal more damage first? Not that I have anything against rush games or the like, but any solution that requires me to totally conform to standards clearly isn't an acceptable solution.

You are ALREADY totally conforming to standards by choosing to play turtle games. I'm not saying I have anything against turtle games, but if you put down an open challenge on the board, and a rusher accepts, you have no right to be upset if you lose. In fact, you should expect it.

Rock Paper Scissors. The number of Rock Paper Scissors analogies I've heard about this game... but, with all due respect Xerent, I feel they don't hold weight. It's fine if we want to talk rock paper scissors in terms of advantages, we're not necessarily looking for a game where every single form is totally equal. However, one must wonder, first of all, how long will we be waiting for this scissors? The game has no balance if there is one form that is inherently dominant, because anyone that is unable to conform to that formation as well will simply lose consistently.

It was like that when turtles were dominant. The game had no balance. You couldn't play a rush, and expect to win versus a turtle. Now the table is turned, and everyone expects everything to remain the same.

However, I agree. I hate waiting for game updates. Unfortunately, we can't do anything about it. Well, I can, and I am, but that's a whole 'nother story. ^_^.

Not only that, but how far will this Rock/Paper/Scissors go? Will turtles be totally incapacitated against rushes? As of now, that is almost the case, considering a turtler needs to be about 50% higher than a rusher to claim victory.

No, I'm not saying this game needs to be like Rock/Paper/Scissors. What I'm saying is that units should naturally hold advantages and disadvantages over one another. What I am saying is that there isn't a great enough variety of units, not a great enough variety of advantages vs. disadvantages to make this game have multiple acceptable and sound strategies.

Aside from this, attacking the cleric is not the only reason I hate the ambusher. His ability to break focus is unrivaled, as no unit can stop him and no trap can be set because he doesn't move in close like the muddy. So yeah, sign me up for busher hating

Just for the record, I love and hate the busher. I love it because it IS another unit, it adds to the advantages and disadvantages this game desperately needs. Right now, however, I hate the busher for the very reasons you stated.

-=-=-=-=-

To Xerent : A turtle does not need the cleric for the whole game to win. I've played turtle games where I've never healed, or won without the cleric.

Then stop complaining on how effective a Golem Ambusher is at killing clerics.

-=-=-=-=-

Xerent, you completely ignored my point about positioning.

Interrupting you here to prove a point.

unit placement and luck is all that applies.

Proceed.

Again I say, turtle vs. turtle shows skill in maneuvering.

Again I say

unit placement

No one starts with a marked advantage,

...

unit placement

you have to take it without opening yourself up.

Do I really have to say it?

unit placement

Yes, yes I do.

Rush vs. rush USED to have quite a bit of strategy, too. How to protect the cleric while still giving yourself a chance to go on the offensive.

/sigh

unit placement

Now, with the ambusher, NO cleric is safe, and it's started to become a game of who gets 1st turn and lucky side.

I'll give you a hint at what I'm about to say here.

unit placement

Most good rushers I know take pride in building sets that don't rely on 1st turn or lucky side,

unit placement

but the ambusher is skewing all that.

By relying on unit placement?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Which is exactly why your strategy sucks. Because when your cleric dies, all your units have the potential of styrofoam peanuts.

...You're... Joking, right?

Hey, everybody, this guy mistook me for a TURTLER! Hahah!

Sorry, man, I use a two-Cleric grey spread rush. I am the grey equivalent of everything the Gold rush represents... Without the units.

Against greys, even turtles, I manage to do pretty well with my strategy. However, with the lack of gold units (relying only on the drops I've gotten through battles), Gold fighting is extremely difficult, because of the Golem Ambusher. When fighting Golds and their extra units, my only advantage is the ability to heal every other turn, HOWEVER, against someone with a GA, my Clerics quickly become nothing but cannon fodder (although I am often able to save them from one GA attack unless they back it with a Scout).

Except rushes. They find them marginally beneficial.

As mentioned above (I gave that quote special attention, because I found it comical), I'm a grey two-Cleric rusher. In the Grey Vs. Grey game, I could make some adjustments to my strategy and probably live without the second Cleric, however, against a Gold, my Clerics are my only lifeline; lose them, and Golds have an extremely heavy advantage against me, because they outweigh me in heavy-damage units as well as long-range units, AND they best me in my only stronger point... Healing capability. Having two Clerics is the only advantage I can have against a good Gold with my limited units.

Granted, your own unit preservation helps in this task, but your knights hit for just as much weather they are at one HP or fifty.

As soon as all of your movable units are dead, you lose the game. The only three units in the game that can slow the process of the death of your own units are the Barrier Ward (takes up one unit, protects one unit; a bad trade-off save for protecting Focus), the Stone Golem (small area, focus spell, easily broken, only slows process), and the Cleric (long waiting time, heals all of your units for 12 HP each).

Since the Cleric is the ONLY unit in the game that will reverse the damage process, it is extremely beneficial. Because although that Knight does the same damage at the same rate whether wounded or at full health, a 10 HP Knight is one hit away from death, whereas a 22 HP Knight can last through any one attack, save for the Lightning Ward. And let's face it - a dead Knight isn't going to be doing any damage throughout the rest of the battle.

How is using a formation that has one point of failure strategically greater against a formation that does not?

Pfft, don't ask me. I don't turtle, I couldn't find an answer to your question if I tried.

I'm a rusher that, in Grey Vs. Gold fights, is entirely reliant on the ability to heal to counter my lack of heavy damage units (3 Knights, 2 DMWs, a Scout, and an Assassin make up my offensive roster). Golem Ambusher just kills any hope of me being able to have a fair fight against a Gold.

[xerent]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'll just repeat myself because it's so great to hear me talk.

Don't complain about the Golem Ambusher, complain about needing more variety.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'll just repeat myself because it's so great to hear me talk.

Don't complain about the Golem Ambusher, complain about needing more variety.

I love hearing myself talk too, but that's aside from the point.

I'm complaining about the Golem Ambusher because it only cripples me further (being unable to pay, it's like having dead-ends everywhere you look). I'm certain any gold here could just as easily reposition a Frost Golem or some other paralyzing unit so it's one space in front of your Cleric and thus a deterrrent from a GA kill. :D Or... Something like that.

[roody poo]

There's room for all kinds of bush-hating here.

I prefer just a thin landing-strip myself. I mean if you expect me to have to move it outta the way...I ain't goin there.

[xerent]

I can understand about the Golem Ambusher making things more difficult, and I can also understand your plight about not being able to pay a gold membership

However, you have no right to complain. ^_^. Paying gives you the right to complain, much like voting does.

[thewiz]

Eh, I know Frylock hates me (or doesnt)

But I gotta agree with him, ambushers are evil!!!!



-Wizzy

[Lonely Tylenol]

However, you have no right to complain. ^_^. Paying gives you the right to complain, much like voting does.

I don't vote either, because I'm under 18 (instead, I just forced my parents to vote, since I am more an influence in political awareness than they are).

In accordance to both paying and voting, I would do so if I could, but, I can't. Tough cookies for me, I'd have liked using a Poison Wisp.

[Amaroth]

We didn't ask Japan to stop picking on us, we flew over and bombed the living f*ck out of them. Now stop bitching about the unit and take action by just finding a defense.

[Wayfaerer]

What a poor analagy :rolleyes:

[sub the hendrix]

On a slightly lighter (ok much lighter) note, I was amazed at all the reps I got for that dinky little poem I wrote at 2:00 in the morning.

Now for the serious stuff.

Ideally, in the game of tao, every unit is worth the same as any other unit, with the obvious exception of wards and dragon tyrant. Now, this does not mean that a pyro is equal to a knight in a one on one battle. What it does mean is that every unit has its place in a TEAM of units. The effect of one unit can be negated by another unit, but that effect is negated by yet another unit, and so on. A chanty negates a knight, but the chanty is undone by the scout, but the chanty can refocus and barrier, etc...

The problem with the gold game is not so much the ambusher, but the fact that the ambusher can also be used with two scouts, a muddie, and a wisp. Supposedly the defensive units up against them are the furgon, the frost, the barrier ward, which all protect the cleric. To me that seems like uneven odds. I know that the goal of the game is to kill you opponents units xerent, but the key is to kill theirs, and not lose your own. You can get as nit-picky as you want with that point, so I am going to leave it alone.

The problem is that there are more offensive units than deffensive, the ambusher makes it so that the offensive team is inherintly more powerful than the defenders. Actually, according to basic knowlledge of warfare, the defender is supposed to have advantage. This is mysteriously called "defenders advantage."

But now its late and I'm rambling on. That last point is for another day.

[FryLock]

How do you defend against something that can't be blocked? That, when in tandem with other units is sure to take out a cleric?

And Ach...I like you a lot, but come on...the Japan analogy is terrible. Really.

[MtSlayer]

There is no defense though. Seed made the unit for a specific reason apparently. If you look at every single unit in the game, they have a unique strength and then a crippling flaw. The scout has LoS, the chanty must retain focus, the knight can be blocked and is melee, the assassin can detonate but only when under 5hp, etc. But the GA, is terribly overpowered.

60 HP, 5-6 tiles attacking range, 20 power. Sure, 2 movement and 3 recovery helps a little bit, but jesus christ. 60 HP!?!?! If this unit was ever posted in the CaU forum the poster would be flamed instantly, and you all know it.

I used to marvel as to how Seed had constructed such an incredibly balanced and well thought out game. I've played 1 gold game all week.

[Amaroth]

How do you defend against something that can't be blocked.

It can be blocked. It's a unit with close to no mobility and a long recovery. So if I just strategically place a shrub or unit in a spot he wants to walk, then his assault on my Cleric is prolonged. If you want to avoid first turn attacks, then make the placement of your Cleric unorthodox. Also, we have a Barrier Ward for a reason. A Barriered Cleric, a Furgon, a Lightning Ward, and the Ambusher's long recovery makes it very easy to take out the Ambusher then heal back up.

There is no defense though. Seed made the unit for a specific reason apparently. If you look at every single unit in the game, they have a unique strength and then a crippling flaw.

Well, it has no armor, no blocking. Very easily killed, even when armored. It has long recovery and can only move two spaces, so if it has low HP it can't escape. It can't attack close range, so if you shrub it in or corner it with units it's stuck there. It has alot of crippling flaws in it, so much that I don't like to use it.

Edit: Someone neg repped me with this:

"Turtlers, not rushes, are the ones complaining about the GA. Read the thread first"

For the record, if you had any idea what you were talking about, you'd know I'm currently the oldest turtler left on TAO. When I went gold GL was the only server and all I got was a second Assassin. Do your homework.

[Cross Punisher]

The problem isn't the ambusher by itself. One Ambusher placed up front to take up the cleric without any backup is easy to defend against especcially if the opponent is using a cornered formation. Simple move the cleric to the opposite side of their formation. But when the GA is backed up with a scout on both sides followed up by a wisp and mud it is impossible to save your cleric. Sure you could use a LW, BW, Frosty combination but that takes up a lot of spaces on your setup, and all that does is prolong the inevitable.

IDK maybe seed wan'ts us to stop using clerics :rolleyes:

[FryLock]

It can be blocked. It's a unit with close to no mobility and a long recovery. So if I just strategically place a shrub or unit in a spot he wants to walk, then his assault on my Cleric is prolonged. If you want to avoid first turn attacks, then make the placement of your Cleric unorthodox. Also, we have a Barrier Ward for a reason. A Barriered Cleric, a Furgon, a Lightning Ward, and the Ambusher's long recovery makes it very easy to take out the Ambusher then heal back up.


*sigh*

Look at what cross punisher just wrote. You are right, LT the ambusher alone is not a big problem. But when it's with other units...
But hey, go and shrub it up, or use the LW on it and boom, scouts, wisp and muddy are all right there, killing your cleric or breaking your focus. Tell me how to reasonably defend that, show me that it works, then maybe I'll start taking your ideas on this matter seriously. And no, it wasn't me that neg-repped you, in case you were wondering.

[Amaroth]

*sigh*

Look at what cross punisher just wrote. You are right, LT the ambusher alone is not a big problem. But when it's with other units...
But hey, go and shrub it up, or use the LW on it and boom, scouts, wisp and muddy are all right there, killing your cleric or breaking your focus. Tell me how to reasonably defend that, show me that it works, then maybe I'll start taking your ideas on this matter seriously. And no, it wasn't me that neg-repped you, in case you were wondering.

I know you didn't neg rep me, you would have signed it. And just to note, I'm not angry at you or anyone here. Merely a debate.

And I understand that when combined with other units it's very hard to block. But I've experimented. Many people said that this unit was designed to rid TAO of turtlers. I seem to think that if people think enough, this unit might make turtles popular again. I personally have always used Barrier Wards, I have them in alot of my forms. Actually I have one in the majority of my forms. A Barrier Ward - Furgon combination makes a very good defense. Now, this isn't easy, but LoS can be blocked. Personally, I learned how to use my Furgon from Aro, who in my opinion was one of if not the best Furgonner TAO has seen. So this may come a bit easier to me. But if you can Barrier you Cleric, then shrub up and focus on taking out the Ambusher, it's not that hard to restore your Cleric to full health. You do have to watch out for that annoying Mudquake, but with no armor or blocking it's rather easy to take him out if you shrub right. And this is all worst case scenario, who's to say you don't get first turn?

Just remember, I never said any of this would be easy. Earlier I made it sound like this was a simple solution, so I apologize for that. This takes ALOT of practice.

[CRX687]

There is no defense though. Seed made the unit for a specific reason apparently. If you look at every single unit in the game, they have a unique strength and then a crippling flaw. The scout has LoS, the chanty must retain focus, the knight can be blocked and is melee, the assassin can detonate but only when under 5hp, etc. But the GA, is terribly overpowered.

60 HP, 5-6 tiles attacking range, 20 power. Sure, 2 movement and 3 recovery helps a little bit, but jesus christ. 60 HP!?!?! If this unit was ever posted in the CaU forum the poster would be flamed instantly, and you all know it.

I used to marvel as to how Seed had constructed such an incredibly balanced and well thought out game. I've played 1 gold game all week.

Bushy has the major flaw of donut range, no blocking, and no armor.

c'mon guys, it's here and bitching about it won't help one bit, bushy's here to stay...

Plus, i've found that in rush games, it is still to your advantage not to use bushy, sure you get a cleric kill (in 2-3 moves)... that about how long it takes the other rusher to kill ur cleric too... and withOUT busher... against rush sets, scouts, mud, wisp, and dsm are WAY more than enough to get the cleric. And so long as you take out their cleric when they take out urs, it's still an even match... a good rush doesn't need a specific side, i can cover ANYWHERE on the field... after the clerics are gone, ur opponent's stuck with a bushy, which can basically be saved for last, while you'll have a slight advantage with basically any other attacking unit...

Bushy kills cleric, how about simply not worrying about cleric and make them pay for spending 2-3 turns attacking it?

[sub the hendrix]

The ambusher is really good at one thing, and one thing only. Personally I like units with variabilty. Of course I cant argue that all units have multiple purposes, like barrier ward, lightning ward, and cleric, but most units take some time to get the gist of. Chanty is technically the most powerful unit in the game, because it can "kill" an antire army in one hit, but it is arguably the hardest to use to its maximum potential. The ambusher has great potential, but takes less skill to operate. Maybe I'm being to nit picky again, but thats still what I think.

[Lonely Tylenol]

For the record, if you had any idea what you were talking about, you'd know I'm currently the oldest turtler left on TAO. When I went gold GL was the only server and all I got was a second Assassin. Do your homework.

I being the one that neg-repped you feel the obligation to respond to your comment. Sorry, I must have neglected putting the ~Tylenol at the end, I can be so forgetful sometimes. Sorry! Made a mistake there. Obviously it can be said, however, that I didn't have the intention of rep-and-run, or I wouldn't be admitting it here.

When I was first playing TAO, the only things you got were a DSM, a Dragon Tyrant, a Beast Rider and... Hmm... I forgot the last one, was it a Frosty? Anyway. Payment was a $10 flat rate and some time into it (around Christmas), the Furgon was introduced as a competition event (capture the Furgons). Mud Golem was a random drop (MAN, those days rocked, two Clerics and a Muddy) and everyone enjoyed seeing the Trophy (see Wayfaerer's avatar) as a lobby avatar. The Win/Loss/Draw system was still in effect (I was still there when they dropped it; pissed me off so much I left for awhile), and so on and so forth.

That being said, I think it's safe to say I have seen my fair share of how the game works, and know what I'm talking about.

What you initially said in your first post here, as I will bring up, was...

The rushers just told us to shut up. Now all the rushers are bitching about something new that they don't like.

Maybe you should put on your reading glasses if you need them... Right there, it says "RUSHERS are bitching about something new that they don't like." Well, I'M the only rusher bitching about how it's too strong against me, and that's because I'm grey!

Maybe it is you that needs to do some research? ;)

Look at what cross punisher just wrote. You are right, LT the ambusher alone is not a big problem. But when it's with other units...

Egads! Are you saying I'm right, or is there another LT around here?

Who are you and what have you done with Frylock?

It can be blocked. It's a unit with close to no mobility and a long recovery. So if I just strategically place a shrub or unit in a spot he wants to walk, then his assault on my Cleric is prolonged.

The only two squares that would allow you to completely block a 'Busher from moving into Cleric range would be as follows...

0 0 0 0 0 0 X 0
0 X 0 0 0 X X X
X G X 0 0 G X 0
0 X 0 0 0 0 0 0

Putting that aside, if you have to negate the use of a defensive unit to stop an offensive unit, then you're both out one.... So that leaves, in relation to the Cleric:

Defensive:
-Barrier Ward
-Frost Golem

Offensive:
-Scout x 2
-Poison Wisp
-Mud Golem
-Dragon Tyrant (if they feel like it)

For those unaware, typically at least four out of these five are used in conjunction with the Golem Ambusher. (Or four-five out of six, counting the DT as two)

(EDIT: I should probably note that the whole negation concept with the Furgon is a moot point if the rusher is too stupid to kill it before it can do some seriously annoying shrubbery.)

If you wanted to save your Cleric from the cheap kill, the only possible thing to do would be to base your entire strategy on self-preservation. And I don't think even the best turtles would go without a counter-offensive.

What you COULD do, is create a wall of Barrier Wards, and then have #1 Barrier the Cleric, #2 Barrier #1, and so on... But that's just plain stupid. :p

Thus, the only way to counter the ridiculous advantage the GA brings with the other units (all of which can be countered, except for the occasional Mud Golem) makes it not even worth it. However, without the preservation of your Cleric, the concept of the turtle strategy is doomed, because your units could be picked off one-by-one without fear of regrouping and repairing.

[sub the hendrix]

I know you have been asked this before, LT, but have you ever been gold?

Before I went gold I never posted on threads about gold strategy, because I would readily admit that I knew nothing about it. Frankly most of what you say about gold strategy, which is quite a lot, seems to come from other peoples posts and discussions. No matter how many golds you claim to play as a grey, it is impossible to understand gold on gold stratgey.

Im not insulting you, I know you are an intelligent person, but maybe you would be better off talking about grey strategy. If you are so inclined, make a thread about strategies for greys to fight golds, but (and again I am not insulting you) make sure you actually know what you are talking about.

[Wayfaerer]

Plus, i've found that in rush games, it is still to your advantage not to use bushy, sure you get a cleric kill (in 2-3 moves)... that about how long it takes the other rusher to kill ur cleric too... and withOUT busher... against rush sets, scouts, mud, wisp, and dsm are WAY more than enough to get the cleric. And so long as you take out their cleric when they take out urs, it's still an even match... a good rush doesn't need a specific side, i can cover ANYWHERE on the field... after the clerics are gone, ur opponent's stuck with a bushy, which can basically be saved for last, while you'll have a slight advantage with basically any other attacking unit...

Bushy kills cleric, how about simply not worrying about cleric and make them pay for spending 2-3 turns attacking it?

Exactly! It blows against other rushes, I don't know why it's so popular in freestyle. Well most of the 1600+ freestylers don't use it at least :cool:

[Lonely Tylenol]

I know you have been asked this before, LT, but have you ever been gold?

I wasn't then because I couldn't afford it. I'm not now because I can't figure out how PayPal works. Wasn't it supposed to be simple and easy? :mad:

Frankly most of what you say about gold strategy, which is quite a lot, seems to come from other peoples posts and discussions. No matter how many golds you claim to play as a grey, it is impossible to understand gold on gold stratgey.

While it is true that good judgement often comes from experience, experience is not the only thing that leads to good judgement.

Whether or not what I'm saying could be considered out of good judgement can be argued some other time. :p I take little, if any, out of other people's posts, being too lazy to read the top few threads; instead I take all that I "know" (again, debatable) out of what I see directly out of other peoples' strategy when I'm fighting them. So basically, one of those things where experiences lead to judgement. But pertaining to this discussion in particular, I am still on the recieving end of the Golem Ambusher, regardless of my payment status (gold/grey), thus my points, in this thread at least, are as valid as they would be if I were gold, since the same strategy is involved in taking out my two Clerics anyway (that being, essentially, none).

[MtSlayer]

That they are. I agree with sub in the regards that it is impossible to truly understand gold strategy without being a gold. I was an excellent gray, one of the best ranked on the server, and becoming a gold blew my mind. If BG didn't teach me how to play I'd still be fumbling around.

However, I don't think of the effects of gold vs gray, which would be even harder in some ways to combat. I do well against rushers as a gray, very well. But against a truly good rusher, I am severely underpowered even without a GA there to hit my cleric or chanty. I'm a chanty/bw combo gray turtler, without a chanty I fall apart. I can block a scout from hitting my chanty with units, I can't block a GA without using my barrier.

[zzzaacckk]

If BG didn't teach me how to play I'd still be fumbling around.

Ur welcome ;)

[sub the hendrix]

BG is still teaching me... well now its BG people on rev in scrub mansion, seeing as how my gold lapsed. I am still a much better grey than gold. I never got more than around 1200 as a grey, but thats because if I got bored with a game with a newb, I just leave (really guys, stats dont matter, if you dont feel like playing, dont). I am constantly learning new things as both a grey and gold, but the gold game is so ridiculously complex it's mind-boggling. As a grey I can hold my own against most golds, but that doesnt mean that I had any comprehension of what strategy the gold player was using.

[Mithrandir]

I hate the freaking ambusher.

[FryLock]

Ambusher :moil:

That's what I want to do to it. Make it suffer. Punch holes in it. Anything to get it to leave.

[Mithrandir]

I second that motion Fry. :cool:

I'm with y'all bushy haters on this but we aren't accomplishing much by arguing with the few people that like the ambusher and saying "what if." If it's possible, I'd like to do something more active. I know, this is almost definitely pointless but hear me out.

The only things I can think of that would end the tyranny of the Golem Ambusher are: A, we convince the people in charge to delete it. No freaking chance, sadly. B, we convince the people in charge to add a unit that can balance the game again. Not likely either but at least possible, theoretically. We need to have some good CAU ideas that we all get behind and support. My creation the Deflector Golem (link in my profile) is one example. Make your own or collaborate various ideas into one, whatever. But we should agree on a good unit and sign a petition saying we support it.

I know this is a long shot concept but what else can we as players do? It's worth a shot. If anyone has any better ideas that involve doing more than agreeing with each other that the ambusher sucks, let me know because I’d love to hear one. I just can’t think of anything else.

What do you guys think?

[Mithrandir]

*crickets chirping*

Oh well, it was just a thought.

[sub the hendrix]

Good thought Mith, but I seriously doubt Seed ever ventures into any of these forums, especially CAU, aka "spam land." If a unit is created to balance out the GA, it will be because Seed determined it was necessary through his own thought process, not because of an outside influence.

[Mithrandir]

What can I say, I'm an activist. I'd like to actually do something about this. It seems there's nothing though. :(

If I was to start a simple petition, asking Seed to create a new unit that would help balance the ambusher's extreme power, would you sign it? Useless almost for sure but it wouldn't take that much work and it'd be worth a shot I suppose. I just hate doing nothing.

And if you're wondering what I mean by "sign," I suppose you could type *signs name* and I could just put everyone that agreed in the petition. Not as formal but about as much as we can do.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This thread reminds me...

I'm gold now, and I still hate the Ambusher, for the same reasons. I lost a guard fight in a war because of the Golem Ambusher, as did my clan leader, the other guard, and the other clan leader (all four fights), all of which involved GA-based rushes vs. turtles. I'm confident that at least one of us would have managed without the enemies' GA.

Oh yeah, and it's killing my stats. And I haven't beaten a rusher who has used it since... Hmm... Have I beaten a rusher who has used it?

Oh yeah, and as a final note, thanks BG (specifically Monkus and zzzaacckk) for helping me figure out how to work the gold units when I was new to them. I can't believe Sub and Fry were actually right all along! Better not let them catch on to this.

[Bottle]

Well, I read up to page 5, and I don't think I need to read any further. It's obvious what the common consensus is. (Except for Xerent. :rolleyes: )

The problem I have with the ambusher is not as it stands alone. It's the power combined with the mudquake. Rushers have one main idea; kill the cleric, move in the muddie and quake repeatedly (every other turn). This does a total of about 50 damage (or more), unhealable, to a clustered form every other turn, and if you focus on the mud, the enemy has 3 free turns to kill another unit (possibly 2).

The game has been made into a very boring spectacle of "who has the most luck with formation". 75% of matches are over before either players makes a move.

The only way to counter the ambusher is to make a spread form without a cleric, and hope to simply overpower the opponent. Reeeeal tactical.

*signs the petition*

In fact I think I'm going to go even further. Let's make a poll on this subject.

[***Duo***]

We didn't ask Japan to stop picking on us, we flew over and bombed the living f*ck out of them. Now stop bitching about the unit and take action by just finding a defense.

Take the bull by the horns.
Agreed.


-Duo

[eternal fire]

Maybe make put the ambusher back a few spaces so it cannot get the cleric the first turn.

[KBHoleN1]

Raise your hand high if you hate the ambusher!!!

*dislocates shoulder as he reaches for the ceiling*

I hate that damn thing. I win maybe 1 out of 4 matches against same-side GA, and that's only if I get first move or they are just an idiot, wisp goes a long way in deterring the GA, especially if you can put pressure on one of their key units, they usually aren't as willing to focus on your cleric. I'm also not afraid to armor my cleric after a heal to save him. But 1 out of 4 is hardly the chances I'd give myself against non GA forms.

I've started playing on a legends account with 2 frosties, let's see a stupid GA touch my turtle now, man do they get pissed when they lose :p .

Oh, yeah, my name is on the list, I'll be my John Hancock and sign it hella big :) .

[Cuathon]

well wayf or whoever was on xblackxdragonx beat my rush with a turt. he had some luck, most of mine was too close to the end. anyhow i messed up with the wisp early on which hurt pretty bad. then i proceded to make bad moves. well duh thats why you lose.

anyhow turtles can beat rushes. its not impossible. im sure wayf would be glad to show you sometime. :D

also. the GA is bad in a rush. which is what makes it good. :cool:
i use the GA if its on a good side. otherwise i leave it alone unless i have a backsohot or a side for a kill. if its on the good side the other guy wastes time killing it. the only reason i use the Ga is for that first cleric hitting move.once thats done it just makes the other guy waste time on it whenit is now worthless. i usually save units lie the GA and the dragon for the end game. frosty on drag mostly. once the cleric is dead i dont bother attacking the opposing GA.

think about it like this. your clerics gonna die. thats just how it goes. so, killtheirs then bust scouts and other easy to kill units. wisp em and mud em. if the other guy deosnt kill your cleric it hurts him later. if he wastes time on your GA its really good for you. leave except for good shots and focus on your other units. dont bother attacking theirs.

[FryLock]

Again, most players who are worth their stripes won't just have a lone ambusher...it's likely to be teamed with a scout, dragon, wisp and/or mud. While I do agree that focusing on the GA once your cleric is dead is not the best idea, there's still not much chance you'll win, if the enemy has support units in place. A cleric kill followed by 1 or 2 mudquakes and a wisp hit can put the hurtin' on even a pack of 3 healthy knights. Good players who use the GA know how to team it with other units.

If your enemy is dense enough to use it by itself or supported by only 1 lone unit, then count your lucky stars. Most good players won't make that mistake, though.

The ambusher sucks. I've been asking for no-ambusher games, and I'm starting to have fun again. It's interesting seeing the forms that OTHER players come up with when they have to think. I've seen some rather impressive ones recently on Banff. And they rely on in-game positioning and strategy, rather than lucky side. Makes the game fun again. I don't mind losing (as much) to such a player. I do mind losing to the Illuminati players who, to a one, put almost everything, including the ambusher, on the front lines. That takes zero skill. Luckily, I've been able to outfox them thus far...but it's required severe luck on my part and poor skill on their part. And while that's satisfying, it's not fun in the least.

[Wayfaerer]

anyhow turtles can beat rushes. its not impossible. im sure wayf would be glad to show you sometime. :D

:cool:


Anyways, after playing afew games against rushes, I've realized that the wisp and second scout are a lot more nubbish and difficult to deal with than the ambusher.

[Moose]

Ok. I'll say it. I am sick and tired of the damn ambusher. It's all about deployment and luck with it, not about skill. I used to love rush games, where the idea was to build a form that didn't require luck or 1st turn. The ambusher has ruined all that.
With the wisp, you can take steps to protect your cleric. But there's almost no hiding it from the ambusher. People put it on the front lines to kill the cleric, nothing more.
I know, this thread won't do anything. People will still keep using the damn thing and sucking a lot of the fun and strategy from the game.
But feel free to post here if you feel the same way. Probably nothing will happen. Probably this thread will just die away.
But I want to bring strategy back to the game. I want rush games where clerics last past the damn 2nd turn. Maybe that can start here. Maybe it doesn't. In any case...have at it.

Sign here if you hate ambushers.


Take into consideration that it was meant for 1 scout play not 2, if it really is becoming such a problem, ask for a setting that makes it so when using the ambusher you can only use 1 scout


Moosey

[zzzaacckk]

moosey they would be better good suggestion but yes i detest GA's

[Bottle]

Yes, only being able to have 2 of the following 3 units (2 scouts and ambusher) on the field per side would be a lot fairer. And, presumably, not too difficult to implicate, since it would be similar to the 1-scout rule on Legends. The only problem is that Seed probably won't be back until he comes out of hibernation again in another 4 months.

[The Exile]

Bump.

I'm posting here because Dan U, like many other people I've seen here, doesn't think that the ambusher is fair to use, because it kills the cleric too easily. As a scientist, my job is to disprove current theories and to improve them, so here's my opinion.

Ambushers are perfectly fair units, indeed, they are underpowered. And here's why.

I challenge anyone, ANYONE, to produce a formation that can keep a cleric alive for long enough to heal effectively more than twice. It's quite simple; in these servers, where you have 2 scouts, wisp, mud golem, dragon and knights, often on the front row, it is absolutely 100% impossible to keep your cleric alive that long, even without the ambusher. Indeed, the cleric becomes a hassle, something to keep alive, something to worry about: many opponents I have played have sacrificed 2 or even 3 units to keep their cleric alive for one last heal, only for it to be shot next turn; often these units are scouts or knights, the backbone of any army.

To demonstrate this against an opponent who refused to play me with an ambusher, I told him that I would show him something, and surprised him with an ambusher formation. I killed his cleric within 2 turns. I then proceeded to spend my ENTIRE battle defending my own cleric. It managed 2 heals before my defensive wall was broken down and the cleric killed; indeed, those two heals were only to save the cleric and the units blocking him up.

My conclusion; for same-side battles, clerics simply have no use at all. Opposite sides, they have more use but still don't survive long once the battle becomes broken up.

Ambushers are not the problem here. Clerics are. Golds have too much firepower for a cleric to survive in any attack situation.

[Spit_101]

Another Legender pissed about our 2nd scout...figures...

[The Exile]

Sigh. You seem to want to discredit everything I say based on my home server, Spit. A pity; I thought you were an intelligent poster before I began posting myself.

I still bet you couldn't make a formation that would keep a cleric alive long enough to make 3 effective heals in a same-side match though. If you can do that, I'll accept I'm wrong.

[sub the hendrix]

Sigh. You seem to want to discredit everything I say based on my home server, Spit. A pity; I thought you were an intelligent poster before I began posting myself.

I still bet you couldn't make a formation that would keep a cleric alive long enough to make 3 effective heals in a same-side match though. If you can do that, I'll accept I'm wrong.
I could, and I have, and i use it all the time.

The point of having cleric is not to use it to heal itself, in a freestyle game there is always something that could use a hp bonus.

[steve12]

Bump.

I'm posting here because Dan U, like many other people I've seen here, doesn't think that the ambusher is fair to use, because it kills the cleric too easily. As a scientist, my job is to disprove current theories and to improve them, so here's my opinion.

Ambushers are perfectly fair units, indeed, they are underpowered. And here's why.

I challenge anyone, ANYONE, to produce a formation that can keep a cleric alive for long enough to heal effectively more than twice. It's quite simple; in these servers, where you have 2 scouts, wisp, mud golem, dragon and knights, often on the front row, it is absolutely 100% impossible to keep your cleric alive that long, even without the ambusher. Indeed, the cleric becomes a hassle, something to keep alive, something to worry about: many opponents I have played have sacrificed 2 or even 3 units to keep their cleric alive for one last heal, only for it to be shot next turn; often these units are scouts or knights, the backbone of any army.

To demonstrate this against an opponent who refused to play me with an ambusher, I told him that I would show him something, and surprised him with an ambusher formation. I killed his cleric within 2 turns. I then proceeded to spend my ENTIRE battle defending my own cleric. It managed 2 heals before my defensive wall was broken down and the cleric killed; indeed, those two heals were only to save the cleric and the units blocking him up.

My conclusion; for same-side battles, clerics simply have no use at all. Opposite sides, they have more use but still don't survive long once the battle becomes broken up.

Ambushers are not the problem here. Clerics are. Golds have too much firepower for a cleric to survive in any attack situation.

Duuuuuuuuude......Sweet, you use a lot of "interesting yet unique groups of words in compounded sentences." :confused: Whatever that means, well, you got a major point there and its pretty useful information. I think that if people
would just read your stuff, then you'd get a lot of positive reputation points. Nice job, and if someone is looking for a fight, this guy is gonna win, so please don't quote him, he knows what he's doing. ***Rep*** :cool:

[The Exile]

I could, and I have, and i use it all the time.

The point of having cleric is not to use it to heal itself, in a freestyle game there is always something that could use a hp bonus.
Well, I just beat you same-side after killing your cleric in 2 turns, which is almost impossible to block if you get lucky.

It's quite simple; if your opponent has a combination of 3 of the following on the front row same side (scouts, mud golem, ambusher, wisp) you will not save your cleric for longer than 3 or 4 turns unless your opponent lets you. Scouts can only be blocked by a solid wall of a) units (which mud, wisp, and ambusher can bypass) or b) shrubs (which mud golem can remove). Ambusher can't be blocked at all, period. Wisp can only be blocked if the cleric is in the corner and has 4 units placed around him in front and to the side. Mud can't be blocked from doing at least 5 damage to the cleric, and usually does 10.

Opp side is a different matter. But same side, you might as well put in an extra melee unit such as assassin or beast rider, or your third knight.

On legends you rarely find the scout on the frontline, since he must be kept in reserve for the frost, and often the mud is reserved for the same purpose and for removing shrubs. Hence clerics rarely die very early, and it makes for a more tactical game. (Disclaimer: this is not an attack on FPS, Spit, this is a statement of how things are.)

[2xfire]

lol kinda a noob question here but..... is there anyway they would take the bastard out of the game?

[The Exile]

No, and nor should they.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ambusher can't be blocked at all, period.

Exactly. And that is what makes it a turtler's worst nightmare. It's a unit thats range can span over half the field in any direction, ignore any and all defensive mechanisms in a turtle, and hit the Cleric, almost killing it for certain.

While it is true that the two Scouts, Wisp, Mud Golem, and Dragonspeaker Mage all have Cleric killing properties, it would be wise to note that ALL of these are preventable, one way or another. The Dragonspeaker Mage can be very easily killed and its path blocked, due to the fact that it has to be IN enemy territory, due to its 4 range.

While it is true that a Scout has the same range as a Golem Ambusher, it also applies Line of Sight, and a simple formation in this respect will put your units in a position where the Scout has to fully flank in order to kill the Cleric, which a well placed Furgon can prevent almost even WITH the Mud Golem in play, and it quickly becomes more trouble than it's worth vs. a turtle (unless you kill the Furgon and destone to preoccupy them).

The Poison Wisp is somewhat harder to prevent, however, you do not need four units aligned accordingly in order to prevent Wisping; since the Wisp is often placed where it can only jump within one space of the Cleric (2 spaces off the center panel, where the Golem Ambusher is 1 space off, so it can hit the Cleric anywhere in the back rank in 2 moves), so you really only need to block off two/three spaces. I have a form that can do this without obstructing efficiency.

The Dark Magic Witch and Dragon Tyrant are so easily prevented it's hard to count them as Cleric killers at all. A well placed Lightning Ward will prevent the Dark Magic Witch completely, and stop the Dragon Tyrant from trying (at the expense of dying in the process); otherwise, a single unit will prove efficient at walling off the more reckless.

So that rules out Poison Wisp, Scouts, Dragon Tyrant, Dark Magic Witch, and Dragonspeaker Mage. All are easily preventable. That leaves only the Mud Golem and the Golem Ambusher, and one of those can be avoided to a partial extent.

So guess which of these units turtlers are actually going to complain about.

[sub the hendrix]

Ambusher on it's own is not a problem, it has no armor, and no blocking. But the two or three turns it takes it to recover goes awfully fast while you are trying to hold off all the other rush units mentioned above.

[Spit_101]

Sigh. You seem to want to discredit everything I say based on my home server, Spit. A pity; I thought you were an intelligent poster before I began posting myself.

I still bet you couldn't make a formation that would keep a cleric alive long enough to make 3 effective heals in a same-side match though. If you can do that, I'll accept I'm wrong.I was referring to the 2nd scout you were whining about. Not the ambusher.

I thought someone as smart as you would realize that.

[Lonely Tylenol]

would just read your stuff, then you'd get a lot of positive reputation points.

I read his stuff, didn't thrash him from coming from Legends (hell, I did, in early '04), and I still think he's wrong.

I'll waiting on my "evil witch" neg reps now. :p Come on, like it matters.

EDIT: I didn't want to double post, but:

I still bet you couldn't make a formation that would keep a cleric alive long enough to make 3 effective heals in a same-side match though. If you can do that, I'll accept I'm wrong.

http://villagephotos.com/image.asp?id_=12438131

That's the strat I use... I know of ONLY one rusher that will use his Wisp within one space of the center space (his name I will not disclose for the purpose of keeping his strategy secret before battle), and with anyone else, the Cleric is completely safe from Wisping... Scouts' shots are ineffective on my side, and take too long on the flank (by which point I can prevent it)... The Dragon Tyrant prevents other DT attack, and the LW kills any Cleric killing bomb units in one hit (although it doesn't prevent the DSM from trying). The only two units with a shot in Hell at getting to my Cleric are the Dragonspeaker Mage, the Mud Golem, and the Golem Ambusher; the Mud Golem and the Dragonspeaker Mage can be prevented by means of a single Furgon shrubbing.

The Golem Ambusher cannot be stopped.

In a same side TURTLE match, I am able to keep my Cleric through most of the game, unless I make the mistake of pushing my units away and leaving myself vulnerable. (The Stone Golem focus, on the other hand, is a nightmare to keep.)

[Tranth]

i sometimes wonder why they call this unit "ambusher".... it does not ambush at all.... in fact.... it throws stones at ya at broad-day-light.


Golem Ambusher: What do I do?
Cleric: Finish him! Finish him - your way!
Golem Ambusher: Oh good. My way. Thank you. Which one's my way?
Cleric: Pick up one of those rocks; get behind the boulder. In a few minutes the other cleric will come running around the bend. The minute his head is in view, HIT IT WITH THE ROCK!
Ambusher:My way's not very sportsmanlike.

[X-Takhisis]

Golem Ambusher: What do I do?
Cleric: Finish him! Finish him - your way!
Golem Ambusher: Oh good. My way. Thank you. Which one's my way?
Cleric: Pick up one of those rocks; get behind the boulder. In a few minutes the other cleric will come running around the bend. The minute his head is in view, HIT IT WITH THE ROCK!
Ambusher:My way's not very sportsmanlike.

hehe i rember that from that movie. what is its name again? o ya the prinses bride ( i think ) i love the giant :D

p.s what do you hav against the golem ambusher

[Black Spyke]

Golem Ambusher: What do I do?
Cleric: Finish him! Finish him - your way!
Golem Ambusher: Oh good. My way. Thank you. Which one's my way?
Cleric: Pick up one of those rocks; get behind the boulder. In a few minutes the other cleric will come running around the bend. The minute his head is in view, HIT IT WITH THE ROCK!
Ambusher:My way's not very sportsmanlike.

:bigsmile:

Ambushers... pfff who needs em.

[The President]

I have to agree with frylock I have lost many games b/c some noob gold brings that crap in and kills my cleric the second turn and then it just like O CRAP. Then u have to completely change your approach for the game just so u can stay alive.

[The Exile]

Link doesn't work for me, LT. But let me just say that a wisp isn't always placed directly in front of the cleric; if placed just off-centre, it can rech the back row or in front of the cleric, and can only be blocked by having 2 units in front of the cleric and one on the back row next to the cleric directly in line with the wisp.

You have 9 units to spend blocking up shots on your cleric from scouts, wisp and DSM alone. That's not to mention the (also) unblockable mud golem which generally can't be stopped from dealing 10 damage minimum. 3 units to block wisp, 3 more to block DSM, and the remaining 3 to block LOS. That doesn't leave your formation with much room to manoeuvre.

Cleric doesn't even have that much practical value. Yes, it can save one critically injured unit for an extra turn, and this can be crucial, but much of the time the opponent can bring enough firepower to bear on single units at a time (especially with the long range FPS has) and make the cleric heal irrelevant. Its only real use in my opinion (same side) is for dealing with multi-hitting attacks; mudquake, pyro/DSM, wisp. For myself, I'd rather include an extra melee unit that can take 2 or 3 hits anyway. There's no time to waste healing in a same side battle unless you have spread damage on your units, every move is an attack.

Of course, I'm mainly talking about rushes and anti-rushes here. Turtles (even power turtles) often don't have enough damage units to have the luxury of not healing and simply overpower the foe. But then, turtles are very difficult to use, given (once again) the ranged potential, and the ability to break stone focus easily, making the unit advantage of the rush tell.

I don't think I'm going to persuade you though. You seem set on your opinion; thats your choice. But like I said with my first post, scientists aim to destroy current wisdom and replace it with better wisdom. There are always those who refuse to agree, whether the new theory is correct or not. And their opinions will not change until (and if) they become the minority.

[Lonely Tylenol]

But let me just say that a wisp isn't always placed directly in front of the cleric; if placed just off-centre, it can rech the back row or in front of the cleric, and can only be blocked by having 2 units in front of the cleric and one on the back row next to the cleric directly in line with the wisp.

Ugh, exactly.

Since my picture link isn't working... Here's the formation I wanted to show you.

1 2 0 0
3 4 0 0 0
5 6 7 0 0 0
0 8 0 0 0 0
0 0 9 0 0 0

1 = Cleric
2 = Furgon
3 = Stone Golem
4 = Frost Golem
5 = Scout
6 = Mud Golem
7 = Dragon Tyrant
8 = Scout
9 = Lightning Ward

I that formation...

It blocks:

- All forms of Scout Line of Sight from one side without fail (unless you move the Mud Golem or Frost Golem recklessly);
- Delays all opposite-side Scout fire (with Furgon placement);
- Eliminates most Poison Wisp usage;
- All Mud Golem damage with a single shrub;
- Enables Furgon to move freely and create a flank wall;
- Lightning Ward deters/deflects most bomb attacks, completely eliminating them except in cases of first turn...

For over a month, i used this turtle set in freestyle games, until I decided to branch into rush/anti rush forms.

The best thing about it is...

Even with the units assigned in such a way that it obstructs some Cleric damage, it's STILL practical otherwise!

(I will grant that a first turn DSM would wipe the Cleric clean, as well as damage some other units, but it's not like bombing requires any measure of skill to begin with, so it's not a big loss.

Cleric doesn't even have that much practical value. Yes, it can save one critically injured unit for an extra turn, and this can be crucial, but much of the time the opponent can bring enough firepower to bear on single units at a time (especially with the long range FPS has) and make the cleric heal irrelevant. Its only real use in my opinion (same side) is for dealing with multi-hitting attacks; mudquake, pyro/DSM, wisp. For myself, I'd rather include an extra melee unit that can take 2 or 3 hits anyway. There's no time to waste healing in a same side battle unless you have spread damage on your units, every move is an attack.

No offense, but have you ever played a real turtle game?

Don't take it the wrong way, but a Cleric, combined with a Stone Golem Focus and a little skill, can keep two Scouts alive throughout the whole battle. In fact, I have used it the same way; I could send a meager two Scouts and Mud Golem on the offense, all three Stoned, and pick off the average turtler's Furgon, Frost Golem, Cleric, and defocus their Stone Golem, and retreat without losing a unit, because I keep a keen eye on my Cleric's waiting time and a photographic memory of the damage calculations on an armored Scout.

More than once have I been in the situation--more often late game than early--where I have been stuck with a Frost Golem, a Cleric, a Scout, a Furgon (some without), a Stone Golem, and a Lightning Ward against a few of my opponent's attackers, and have had to rely on my Cleric to save my Frost Golem and pull off an enemy kill.

Granted, I could easily hold my own without it--Any turtler who is unable to hold fast without it isn't deserving of the title--but it most certainly isn't a weak link.

In a rush game, perhaps, the words hold true, but rushes maintain to this point a deep level of inconsideration with their units--heck, people will rush 2 or 3 of their own to kill a Cleric, for instance--and due to their reckless and often luck-based nature, require a considerably smaller amount of skill to properly use.

I don't think I'm going to persuade you though. You seem set on your opinion; thats your choice. But like I said with my first post, scientists aim to destroy current wisdom and replace it with better wisdom. There are always those who refuse to agree, whether the new theory is correct or not. And their opinions will not change until (and if) they become the minority.

Turtlers are a dwindling minority as it is, and unit preservation has given way to a reckless, kill-or-be-killed gaming mentality that results in lining up your own units to die to kill another unit.

However, I still don't see my opinions changing.

[The Exile]

You ask me if I've ever played a real turtle game? I was playing turtle games months before you even discovered the game. And I know the cleric's value in a turtle game. I'm talking about a rush game here, which is predominately what you will find nowadays, and more specifically same-side rush matches.

Nevertheless, with one simple and easy move I could poison your cleric and furgon first turn. If I had a wisp in my formation, it would be on the front line one space off-centre, and if we got same side I would certainly do that. It then means your cleric is on 16, cannot heal, and your furgon cannot shrub up to protect the cleric from LOS shots. In that situation, your cleric would be dead in 2 turns, with only two units required to do it, and without getting a single heal in even to save itself.

Yes, you don't find many formations with wisp there, but if you're facing a rush there is a 25% chance that you get second turn and your opponent gets same side. Even without the ambusher, you can't stop it. If you furgon, the mud breaks the shrubs and the scout shoots the cleric.

All I'm saying is that in about 5-10% of your battles, no matter what your defense of the cleric, it WILL die within a few turns. it's impossible to block against every formation, even if the ambusher didn't exist.

In a turtle match it's a different matter, because you have the choice to attack. But against a rush you cannot attack or you will be swept away by superior numbers. And if you defend, your cleric will always die if your opponent knows what he's doing.

In summary, in RUSH MATCHES, same side, the cleric has little or no practical value and dies regardless of the ambusher being there or not. And I doubt you can disagree with that.

That is the point I was making from the start.

If you want to turtle, fine. It's now (sadly) a weak formation. If you want to start at a disadvantage, that's your prerogative.

[KBHoleN1]

It's funny, in my turtle games consider the cleric vital to my plans, not syaing I can't deal without it, but I would rather have it there for the end of the game, when healing can be detrimental to your opponent. But as much as I value my cleric, I could care less about the opponent's cleric, and most of the time I don't even break their stone focus right away or ever. I assume that I can plan around any healing or extra armor and just outplay them for the first part of the match. It helps that I use my frost and my wisp well, so I am mor about freezing then killing outright. By not attacking the cleric or stone, I don't get out of position and maintain an advantage in the game.

Exile: If the cleric is already so easy to kill, why need a unit devoted entirely to killing a cleric and breaking focus? Any other attempt at a cleric's life runs the risk of losing 1 or 2 units if the defender plays it well. A wisp scout combo can be avoided immediately with LOS blocking and even if it succeeds, the wisp is dead.

To kill the ambusher, who is the only unit needed to attack and kill a cleric (unless you run the cleric away or try to stone him, which you already pointed out is a futile waste of time), you would have to attack 3 straight turns with your strongest attackers, while your opponent is free to work on killing other units while his GA recovers. And if your dragon is blocked from attacking, your knight cannot attack directly, or your opponent uses other strategies, you cannot stop the GA from doing a one-man job on your cleric with no consequence to him (b/c losing the ambusher means almost nothing once he has accomplished his assassin mission). If you kill the GA, the other ranged units already discussed are in perfect position to kill your cleric themselves (remember, you're devoting every turn to kill the GA).

What are you left with? Strong attackers pulled to the front, cleric dead in back, and other units most likely injured - your army in shambles. Any other type of attack loses important units if defended correctly, and allows the defender to maintain a strong position even if the cleric is killed.

I agree with you, that in a rush game it is often more trouble than it is worth to keep a cleric alive. But at least the sacrifice of your cleric comes with some sacrifice from your opponent, except in the case of the ambusher. I don't like it, that is my opinion, others do, that is theirs. No one is right. But what I cannot understand is how the GA improves the strategy of the game, because, as some may remember, this is a strategy game.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You ask me if I've ever played a real turtle game? I was playing turtle games months before you even discovered the game.

Hah, I'll be the judge of that.

I first started playing on the Legends server in December 2003, when did you start playing turtle games?

Nevertheless, with one simple and easy move I could poison your cleric and furgon first turn. If I had a wisp in my formation, it would be on the front line one space off-centre, and if we got same side I would certainly do that.

Naturally, you know my formation.

Tell me, assuming you had no idea how my units were set up, would you still put the Wisp 1 space off center, like you just said in this paragraph, or 2 spaces, like you said in the post before it, when I posted the bad link?

Creating a formation to counter my own will most surely get you an easy Cleric kill, but a cheap one at that.

Even without the ambusher, you can't stop it. If you furgon, the mud breaks the shrubs and the scout shoots the cleric.

A single well placed shrub would eliminate all potential damage for the Mud Golem, even with the Scout, you'd have a living Cleric . . . Frost the Mud Golem and shrub up, pal.

All I'm saying is that in about 5-10% of your battles, no matter what your defense of the cleric, it WILL die within a few turns. it's impossible to block against every formation, even if the ambusher didn't exist.

Without the Ambusher, I could set up my units to prevent a bomb, but I never said I could completely eliminate all threats. However, five to ten percent dead should be considered a RESOUNDING success for Cleric saves.

In a turtle match it's a different matter, because you have the choice to attack. But against a rush you cannot attack or you will be swept away by superior numbers. And if you defend, your cleric will always die if your opponent knows what he's doing.

That is not necessarily true, there are people here who can vouch for that.

And I doubt you can disagree with that.

You're right, because the average rush has absolutely no Cleric protection whatsoever, against an average of five units (Mud Golem, Wisp, Golem Ambusher, 2x Scouts in the corners) placed specifically to kill the Cleric. Most rushes have all their units on the front ranks, and the Cleric in the back, which means a grand total of three ROWS that are empty.

In a RUSH game, the Cleric will always die, because nobody bothers to protect it. That is called a self fulfilling prophecy. It doesn't lie with a problem in Clerics, but a problem with Cleric killing, or even in rushing.

If you want to turtle, fine. It's now (sadly) a weak formation. If you want to start at a disadvantage, that's your prerogative.

Hnh! I think you're confusing "minority" and "weak". Turtles are far from "weak", and any good turtler in these wimpy little FPS servers ( :rolleyes: ) should be able to break you of that delusion.

[banditto]

Ok new plan, we all make it a rule that you play the person in a turt game! Or use a spread with two clerics on opposite sides, or use 3 clerics to piss em off :-P

ps: I say we throw rocks back at the ambusher.

PSS: I think I have a form for an anti rush, play me sometime and we can find out ;-)

[TemplarX2]

I have to say I used the ambusher a lot but I guess the wisp and ambusher cause balance issue in the game. Nowadays people no longer think tactically. All i have to say it will be time to ireplace the actual cleric with a new cleric, 35 in life to counter the threat.

[The Exile]

Hah, I'll be the judge of that.

I first started playing on the Legends server in December 2003, when did you start playing turtle games?
Hmm. I revise my estimate. I started turtling only 1 month before you did. :)

Naturally, you know my formation.

Tell me, assuming you had no idea how my units were set up, would you still put the Wisp 1 space off center, like you just said in this paragraph, or 2 spaces, like you said in the post before it, when I posted the bad link?

Creating a formation to counter my own will most surely get you an easy Cleric kill, but a cheap one at that.
I would place my wisp one space from the centre. I didn't say 2 spaces, I said "just off-centre". Most people play with 1 unit just to the side of the cleric and 2 in front, so putting it 2 spaces in has no point. Very few formations have a unit 2 spaces to the side of the cleric.

But I don't use the wisp, because I can kill the cleric without it.

A single well placed shrub would eliminate all potential damage for the Mud Golem, even with the Scout, you'd have a living Cleric . . . Frost the Mud Golem and shrub up, pal.
Indeed, the only possible way to defend. But with scouts and wisp on the front line, you can't block ALL LOS shots and all wisp shots to the frost as well as the cleric without some time to shrub.

Of course, even if the cleric is unassailable at the start, I trust you don't leave your units all in their starting positions. As soon as one of them is moved off, you aren't blocking every LOS shot any more. And if you replace them with shrubs, shrubs can be broken in the critical moment, when there is a scout in position to take down the frost if it freezes the mud.

Without the Ambusher, I could set up my units to prevent a bomb, but I never said I could completely eliminate all threats. However, five to ten percent dead should be considered a RESOUNDING success for Cleric saves.
Not for myself. If you're rated above 1600 here or 1800 on Legends, your average victory gives you 1-2 points. Your average loss loses 16. If you're losing 5-10% of battles, you're not going to improve your rating. This is why I cannot see how those who reach 1700 here manage it, except by picking and choosing their matches or by boosting.

You're right, because the average rush has absolutely no Cleric protection whatsoever, against an average of five units (Mud Golem, Wisp, Golem Ambusher, 2x Scouts in the corners) placed specifically to kill the Cleric. Most rushes have all their units on the front ranks, and the Cleric in the back, which means a grand total of three ROWS that are empty.

In a RUSH game, the Cleric will always die, because nobody bothers to protect it. That is called a self fulfilling prophecy. It doesn't lie with a problem in Clerics, but a problem with Cleric killing, or even in rushing.
I'm glad you agree with my fundamental point. I wasn't arguing about turtles when I made my first post here, I was arguing about same side rush matches and how the cleric is an irrelevance.

Hnh! I think you're confusing "minority" and "weak". Turtles are far from "weak", and any good turtler in these wimpy little FPS servers ( :rolleyes: ) should be able to break you of that delusion.
I can assure you that I have played many good (stone golem) turtlers here already. When I got same-side, I won every one. When I got opposite side, I won about 40%.

I have also tried turtling with a smilar formation to your own. Twice my stone cluster got eaten by pyros, once my cleric died from a wisp/scout combo identical to the one I mentioned above, and once I froze the mud golem and shrubbed up but got overwhelmed by knights and dragon bashing their way through by the time I had killed the mud and healed.

Every other turtle match I have played, against turtlers and rushers, same or opposite side, I have won. Don't presume to tell me that I can't turtle merely because I choose not to. I was one of the foremost turtlers before the Ambusher and Wisp were released, and I had a 1700 rating to prove it.

[FryLock]

This is why I cannot see how those who reach 1700 here manage it, except by picking and choosing their matches or by boosting.


:( :(

You calling me a cherry-picker? And rantzu? And Big X? I think Bottle got to 1700 too, before he departed. Oh well...I guess that list is all made up of people who boost. :p

[WaCk-HeAd]

I know that Bottle carefully chose his noobs to beat. He was a complete and utter coward.

;)

Sorry SI, couldn't let that slide.

[Knight717]

*Signs Name*

[Lonely Tylenol]

I would place my wisp one space from the centre. I didn't say 2 spaces, I said "just off-centre". Most people play with 1 unit just to the side of the cleric and 2 in front, so putting it 2 spaces in has no point. Very few formations have a unit 2 spaces to the side of the cleric.

Put the Poison Wisp 1 space off the Cleric; this makes it somewhat harder to block from the frontside.

If you put the Golem Ambusher 1 space off center, then it is useable against clerics oppside after just moving twice, AND useable against a same side Cleric in one movement.

Of course, even if the cleric is unassailable at the start, I trust you don't leave your units all in their starting positions. As soon as one of them is moved off, you aren't blocking every LOS shot any more. And if you replace them with shrubs, shrubs can be broken in the critical moment, when there is a scout in position to take down the frost if it freezes the mud.

Don't leave yourself open to attack. ;) If you leave your own Cleric so easy to kill by simply moving a unit, then you aren't covering your tracks quite well enough.

Against a rush match, the best thing to do is kill the closest percieved threats; if a same side Scout or Mud Golem is around, take care of them first. Once you've broken the side your opponent is on, THEN you can move out quite liberally.

Not for myself. If you're rated above 1600 here or 1800 on Legends, your average victory gives you 1-2 points. Your average loss loses 16. If you're losing 5-10% of battles, you're not going to improve your rating. This is why I cannot see how those who reach 1700 here manage it, except by picking and choosing their matches or by boosting.

Well, I was almost fifteen hundred, before I plummeted to the lower 1400s... 1430s, to be precise... It may not be quite the same, but you must be aware that it's common knowledge if you always seek out people with equal or higher stats (and yes, they are out there, unless you're Crx or Rantzu1), you will gain more and lose less than bottomfeeding.

Even if you're over sixteen hundred, challenging a fourteen hundred/thirteen hundred still yields three or four stats at the expense of less, and odds are you should be able to hold your own against a thirteen hundred if you made it that far, if stats are any measure of skill.

I'm glad you agree with my fundamental point. I wasn't arguing about turtles when I made my first post here, I was arguing about same side rush matches and how the cleric is an irrelevance.

That point is right, but as I said, the Cleric is only irrelevant because rushers make it irrelevant. It's quite the self fulfilling prophecy, if you think about it.

Twice my stone cluster got eaten by pyros,

That's what Stone clusters do. :)

I was one of the foremost turtlers before the Ambusher and Wisp were released

HENCE Frylock's need to create a confederation for such a matter.

P.S. Please try not to take me too seriously. Dec. '03 or not, I've only been a gold for a few months, so I'm still pretty newbish, even though I did hit the top fifty in Great Lakes. Plus, some of the remarks (see "have you ever fought a real turtle game?" and "That's what Stone clusters do") I make are really just for fun. When debating such matters, whether TAO or real life, large or small, I try not to let it dampen my humor. :bigsmile: We should have a match sometime, a 1700 Legender such as yourself should give me a good match, if not a good lesson. :)

[The Exile]

FryLock, I'm not saying that any of the 1700s here boost. But I also can't see how you would continue to increase your rating in today's environment where winning every single game is quite simply impossible no matter how well you play. You're always going to come across a 1300 rusher who just happens to have a perfect formation to beat yours or gets enough luck to tip the balance. I certainly couldn't win every single game any more before I started this name here, which I used to be able to do (indeed I was renowned for it).

As for the discussion with LT: it's cool. We both know exactly what we are talking about and both sides have their own meritous arguments. So let's decide it by having a turtle match so I show you what I mean when I called myself one of the foremost turtlers. :)

[KBHoleN1]

I think this going to hurt to say, but here goes:

I have had the pleasure of playing Frylock in a game, he gladly accepts challenges from anyone worth his time, I think I helped him with one point in his rating :bigsmile:

[Tranth]

*signs name*
Yeah, I went gold for a while and realized it was a completely different game, far too dominated by rushes, and while it can get the blood pumping faster sometimes, I think I just like the grey game better. Anyway, my point is, the ambusher was the straw that broke the camel's back on that one.