Minelayer: Read this if you prefer turtle games

[Mithrandir]

Certified Platinum Unit (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16946)

For those of you that don't know me, I'm in SI in banff.

I have not previously participated in this section of the forum so if this is an old idea, bear with me. I am a known fan of turtle games and a despiser of rush games. After the recent addition of the Golem Ambusher, things are especially uneven. I think the game would drastically improve if a unit like this was added because it is a completely defensive unit and it has a great deal of strategic potential, much like the furgon or poison wisp.

Minelayer (name could be improved upon)
Hit Points: 45
Armor: 8
Power: 20
Range: 4
Block: 60
Movement: 3
Wait: 2

Special ability: The Minelayer can place a mine on any empty space on within his range of 4. A player can see where his own mines are located but to the opponent, the mines are not visible. He will be able to see some kind of motion that the Minelayer makes so he will know that a mine has been placed somewhere nearby but will not know where.

Effect of the mine when tread upon by an opposing unit: The mine will explode with a damage of 20 to whatever steps on it and the unit’s turn is immediately over. The damaged unit will be able to move again in the following turn (regardless of the unit’s wait time).

Effect of the mine when tread upon by a friendly unit: If a friendly unit ends his movement on top of the mine, it will explode and damage the unit. However, the mines are not barriers and a friendly unit can walk past them. However, if he does the mine will explode behind him, in which case the opposing player will be able to see where the mine was. A shrub can be placed on a mine and visa versa, they don't affect each other. If a square with a shrub and a mine is attacked, both are destroyed.

Effect of the mine when it is specifically attacked, not tread on: If the space a mine is located on is attacked, the mine will explode and there will be no damage to the attacking unit. The mine can be protected by a barrier ward but if it is, the mine will be visible to the opposing player. Mines are immune to muddy quakes (after all they’d be practically useless otherwise). Mines do NOT affect line of sight like shrubs. If aimed at directly they can be destroyed but otherwise they will not stop an attack.

The potential for strategic use of this unit is enormous. Any charging units would have to carefully try to figure out where the mines are so as not to step on them. This would naturally provide a unique psychological challenge in that it would cause you to have to predict where your opponent would put the mines. Here’s an example of an interesting situation, for the sake of the illustration pretend the furgon is the Minelayer.

http://img206.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img206&image=minelayer9by.png

The Minelayer has just placed a mine somewhere and the brown scout can now move. The scout’s target is the cleric but attacking it is risky. A natural defense would be to place a mine to the front and left of the Minelayer so the only place where the scout could have the LOS to hit the cleric would be protected. But what kind of player is this? A crafty player might place the mine in a space right next to the scout. How could you know?

I think this unit would have great potential and although it would not exactly be an answer to the ambusher, it would certainly help to even the playing field. Yet thought if would be formidable if used well, the damage isn't too strong and the delay it would give the damaged unit would only be a single turn. I think it's a good balance.

Let me know what you think.

~Mithrandir

Edit 3/24/05: Having received valuable insights from Duffman and Cross Punisher and having noticed a missing piece of information, I’ve decided to improve this unit by changing a few minor things.

Change number 1: Originally, this was the case: “The Minelayer can place a mine on any empty space on his own side of the board within his range of 4.” Now the Minelayer is not limited to his own side of the board.

Change number 2: The armor used to be 10 and the HP used to be 48. I decided to make the Minelayer a little easier to kill, to make things more interesting.

Change number 3: Initially it wasn’t specified if the mines can be on the same spot as a shrub (they can). I thought the unit through a lot, I just overlooked this detail.

[doubledown]

It looks like alot of thought went behind making this unit, so we applaud your effort; however, this unit has been mentioned several hundred times already. While everyone is going to put their own small twist or changes to it, it is basically the same idea as others.

[Mithrandir]

Too bad, oh well.

Details could certainly change but the concept is definitely a good one.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Unfortunately, as said before, this unit has already been said and done.

However! You thought the unit through and made a coherent unit post, something CAU has been lacking these recent days. Don't give up!

Pos rep for the new guy for making my day (CAU-wise). :cool:

[Mithrandir]

Thanks for the encouragement, much appreciated. :)

[Cross Punisher]

I know where your going with this, and it's nice that thought was actually put into the unit, but I fail to see how this stops the Ambusher. When I USED (Don't anymore :) ) my GA it was either there to kill the cleric or it was practicly useless. When it was in the right spot there was no need to move it. After I hit you cleric I would just leave it where it was, and if you tried to move you cleric out of GA range I would just pick it off with scouts. Oh course since your a turtler I only have a 25% chance of killing your cleric in 2 turns since it's in a corner. Once your cleric is dead i'm not interested in rushing you. I'm just waiting you out now taking potshots at your units. You could lay some mines around me, but I probably won't be moving any of my long range unit to shorten the wait time.

It would be hard to use this unit offensively which when you lose your cleric early on your are often forced to play offensively.

[Mithrandir]

"I think this unit would have great potential and although it would not exactly be an answer to the ambusher, it would certainly help to even the playing field."

It isn't meant to stop the ambusher, it could even the playing field between rush and turtle a little though. More so it would make turtle vs turtle games much more complicated.

[Cross Punisher]

"I think this unit would have great potential and although it would not exactly be an answer to the ambusher, it would certainly help to even the playing field."

It isn't meant to stop the ambusher, it could even the playing field between rush and turtle a little though. More so it would make turtle vs turtle games much more complicated.
It may even the field... or it may not. Whos knows

BTW I made Magnus (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14360) with a similar purpose.

[Mithrandir]

The strategy of the magnus is much different, primarily because the mines are invisible to the opponent.

Yeah I know, it's kind of a bump but with the nominations going on why not?

[Cross Punisher]

And yet both are meant to slow your opponet down.

[Mithrandir]

It's a very loose connection though, lots of units are meant to slow down an attack. The tactics of the two aren't even close.

[Mithrandir]

I must ask: it was said that this unit had been said and done before. Could I see an example of one that is on the same level when it comes to how good and how well thought out this unit is?

[Cross Punisher]

check out Serge's Tech Mage

:D Theres just some units I don't forget.

[Mithrandir]

Now that is indeed a good unit and the concept is similar but the strategy of the two units are not even close. That unit plants what is more like a remote mine than a land mine. And the fact that you can detonate it on command makes it much easier to use with much less strategy involved. Also, unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe he said the "mines" were invisible, a key part of my unit.

Don't get me wrong, I like the unit quite a bit, more than Serge's other units that I've read (including the two recommended ones), much like I like the Grapnel Warrior more than any of Lonely Tylenol's other units. What I'm saying is that the strategy behind the Minelayer is about as similar to the Tech Mage as it is to the Grapnel Warrior. All three are good units but the strategy behind the units are entirely different.

As far as I can see, the Minelayer IS a new idea. Hardly "said and done before." :)

[Cross Punisher]

What are the tactics for this unit then?

[Mithrandir]

Here is the way I look at the tactical ramifications of the unit. The strategy relies on cunning, in knowing your opponent, how he's going to react so you can decide where to place your mines. Keep in mind that if you step on a mine, not only do you lose 20 HP but your turn ends abruptly. Someone that uses the Minelayer wisely will injure his opponent's attacking units in addition to making him waste turns, a formidable advantage. Someone that uses the Minelayer poorly will only waste turns. I think the most interesting units are those that take a great deal of skill to use, examples: Poison Wisp and Furgon. Someone that uses one of these units well is absolutely formidable. For someone that doesn't use them well (like me), they are nothing more than a liability. The Minelayer is a VERY difficult unit to use well because it relies so much on your ability to outwit your opponent. THAT is what makes this so interesting.

[Cross Punisher]

The Minelayer is a VERY difficult unit to use well because it relies so much on your ability to outwit your opponent. THAT is what makes this so interesting.
But then it also relies on your ability to predict where your opponent is going to move.

[Duffman]

The problem with all mine laying units is that it's not always possible to choose the path that your units takes. Not only that, but it is very difficult to predict. For example.


_ _ _
_ L A
_ _ _

Assassin wants to get to the other side of the Lighting ward.
Two paths with equal amount of tiles. Which way does she go?
Most of us in a real game situation wouldn't even know.


That and only that is the reason i don't like mine laying units. Other than that the psycological and tactical advantages are huge. With one mine you can stop a unit being a threat for that turn and it's recovery time. With that in mind i think your stats are quite a bit over amped. This unit in battle just mows down any unit trying to move into the most logical position to attack.

Changes you could do are: keep the full twenty damage but allow units to continue over the mine and do their move as normal just with taking 20 damage. This will lower the tactical uses though. You could lower the damage yet still stop the unit or you can lower the HP and blocking to that of a mage to make it easily killable.

[Mithrandir]

Cross Punisher: “But then it also relies on your ability to predict where your opponent is going to move.”

Obviously, this is the case with all units.

Duffman: “The problem with all mine laying units is that it's not always possible to choose the path that your units takes. Not only that, but it is very difficult to predict. For example.”

Your objection is surprisingly well-explained, I commend you. I have to also mention that you seem to really understand this unit, whether you like it or not. Too often I’m discussing a unit with someone that doesn’t seem to get it. I’m pleased to see that this truly isn’t the case.

You’re right about one thing, most of us don’t know how the movements work. However, this is exactly what one would want to know how it all works, just like we need to know how the LOS works. I don’t see it as a liability that we would need to understand intricacies better. If one of the two players knows how it works better, he’ll have the advantage. When I didn’t know how LOS worked, I just allowed situations to happen so I could figure it out. I think we all did some experimentation so we could learn. This would simply be a necessity here (although more often then not I think it wouldn’t matter as much).

“That and only that is the reason i don't like mine laying units. Other than that the psycological and tactical advantages are huge.”

I don’t know if I can win you over and convince you that this is a good unit but I am glad to see we agree on that much. For me, the most interesting units are the ones that are hard to use. That’s why the ambusher is so annoying, any noob can use it. I don’t think we need more units like that in this game, we need more furgons and more poison wisps.

“With one mine you can stop a unit being a threat for that turn and it's recovery time. With that in mind i think your stats are quite a bit over amped. This unit in battle just mows down any unit trying to move into the most logical position to attack.”

This is a fair point and I’m glad you bring it up because it gives me the opportunity to expand on something about this unit.

The concept of the minelaying is a total gamble. If you place a mine and your opponent doesn’t step on it, you’ve wasted a turn that you could have used to attack your opponent. BUT, if you use the mine well and your opponent steps on it, you get what is the equivalent of the usefulness of two turns. You wound the attacking unit, plus you make your opponent waste a turn. You don’t take a risk unless there’s a chance of a good payoff so to risk making a bad move in a situation like this, I think those good moves need to pay off big.

“Changes you could do are: keep the full twenty damage but allow units to continue over the mine and do their move as normal just with taking 20 damage. This will lower the tactical uses though.”

I think it would kill the tactical uses of the unit because if all it did was 20 damage, it would be a risk of no damage with the effect of basically a regular turn. Why take the risk if that’s all you get? I understand your point of view here so we may end up just agreeing to disagree but this is a change that I really can’t make. It just destroys the usefulness of the unit. I think because it’s a risk that requires skill, not luck, the unit is balanced enough that it would be an asset to the game.

“You could lower the damage yet still stop the unit or you can lower the HP and blocking to that of a mage to make it easily killable.”

The other suggestion is pretty much non-negotiable, I can’t make that change. These two however, are reasonable. I could see the damage being lowered to 18, not any lower though. I wouldn’t want to change the blocking because it would be a serious scout target but I could see lowering the HP or armor. Because the Minelayer doesn’t have a direct way of attacking I figured it ought to have a pretty good defense but looking at it, I’m starting to think it is a bit much. This is a good suggestion, I’ll give it some more thought and come to a decision.

Thanks for the insights and good questions.

[Cross Punisher]

That’s why the ambusher is so annoying, any noob can use it. I don’t think we need more units like that in this game, we need more furgons and more poison wisps.
You forgot enchantresses, My favorite.

This particular is very useful in the beginning of a game where most LOS is blocked and you can easily predict where your opponent will try to attack you from. In the endgame it's a matter of luck and it's underpowered. I simply retreat to my side of the board and you can't attack me.

[Mithrandir]

“You forgot enchantresses, My favorite.”

You’re absolutely right, thanks for the correction.

“This particular is very useful in the beginning of a game where most LOS is blocked and you can easily predict where your opponent will try to attack you from. In the endgame it's a matter of luck and it's underpowered.”

First of all, all units are better in certain situations than others, that doesn’t make a unit bad. It’s good enough in the beginning (where you’re right, it does excel more) that it’s worth using if you use it well. The furgon is the same way. However, in the endgame luck isn’t an issue, it’s tactics and knowing how to predict your opponent. I think “not as useful” would be more accurate to say then “underpowered.” The LW is very often much more useful in the beginning of the game then the end, it’s still a worthwhile unit though.

“I simply retreat to my side of the board and you can't attack me.”

Well, the Minelayer could chase you, laying mines near you to the point where you pretty much couldn’t move anywhere. Worst case scenario that’s a draw. I think it’d be awfully tough to kill in a one on one situation and if you had a scout with the Minelayer in the end game, you’d be formidable IF you played well.

That really sums up why I love this unit so much. It’s hard to use. For the people that master it, it would be awesome. But it would take a great deal of skill to use well.

I'm not saying this is a perfect unit. I don't make perfect units, intentionally. It's weaker in the endgame then the beginning of the game. Isn't having it balanced a good thing?

[Cross Punisher]

“I simply retreat to my side of the board and you can't attack me.”

Well, the Minelayer could chase you, laying mines near you to the point where you pretty much couldn’t move anywhere.
Your just forgeting this simple sentence you said
Special ability: The Minelayer can place a mine on any empty space on his own side of the board within his range of 4.
So if I retreat to my side of the board you can't attack me and it's automaticly a draw... and yet one of my unit has the same problem so I guess I can't complain too much.

[Mithrandir]

Touche, I had forgotten that. My initial reason was to keep it a defensive unit but I don’t think that’s a good idea anymore. The furgon is used aggressively, it’s still a fine balanced unit. I'm gonna change it.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Either way though, it isn’t a perfect unit, it isn’t meant to be. It would be more powerful with a melee attack of 20 as well. I want it to remain tactical. And I think situations where it's like a knight vs a minelayer at the end would be few and far between, not something to spend a lot of time worrying about.

Edit: I'm curious, what is your overall opinion on the unit? I know you like it somewhat at least because you voted for it. But you do ask a lot of questions, it just makes me curious. :)

[Cross Punisher]

Believe me I only ask question when all the information isn't included or when I'm generally intersted in the unit, and I'm pretty sure you've included all the info so...

[Mithrandir]

Okay, don't take it the wrong way, I like honest hard-hitting questions. I was just wondering. You do make good points and ask good questions, something that I don't think everyone does. :)

[Mithrandir]

I just edited the first post of this thread, making the Minelayer easier to kill, making it unlimited by space on the board and including info I forgot earlier about how it works with shrubs. More detail on what I changed is at the bottom of the first post.

Thanks again to Duffman and Cross Punisher for helping me make my favorite of my units a little bit better. :cool:

[Cross Punisher]

Okay, don't take it the wrong way, I like honest hard-hitting questions. I was just wondering. You do make good points and ask good questions, something that I don't think everyone does. :)
My questions aren't that tough, are they? Just that all variables must be taken into account.

BTW do I seem like a tough reviewer? The way I see it is this, people can always use some advice. Saying some idea sucks because it's overpowered without any reason just doesn't suit me. It's very hard for me to just say, "That ideas sucks," because who am I to judge what other people think? What makes me so much better than them that automaticly makes my opinion superior?

[Mithrandir]

“My questions aren't that tough, are they? Just that all variables must be taken into account.”

Not especially but you’re willing to continue a line of questions.

“BTW do I seem like a tough reviewer?”

Eh, occasionally. I think Kyir kind of has the market cornered on that though. You’re pretty reasonable, and you have much more patience with noob units than me.

“What makes me so much better than them that automaticly makes my opinion superior?”

Eh, it’s a subjective thing. But the fact that you have a certain level of etiquette and that you’ve demonstrated you have a clue as to what you’re talking about is something.

[Mithrandir]

Copied from Nominations thread:The Minelayer name could be changed (stats would remain identical though), if anyone came up with something especially good. The only thing I can think of is "Sand Golem" and instead of planting mines, it creates quicksand that is undetectable unless you fall into it. What do you think, I'd really like honest feeback on this. Is the Sand Golem thing better than the Minelayer thing? Does anyone have any better ideas? One thing that's slightly illogical is that the quicksand spots would leave after friendly units pass over them. With mines they explode afterwards, I guess one could say the quicksand just dries up to let friendly units pass.

[Duffman]

The concept of the minelaying is a total gamble. If you place a mine and your opponent doesn’t step on it, you’ve wasted a turn that you could have used to attack your opponent. BUT, if you use the mine well and your opponent steps on it, you get what is the equivalent of the usefulness of two turns. You wound the attacking unit, plus you make your opponent waste a turn. You don’t take a risk unless there’s a chance of a good payoff so to risk making a bad move in a situation like this, I think those good moves need to pay off big.

I disagree. The main idea of this unit is to use it tactically and psychologically. You don't just put mines on random tiles and hope they get stepped on. You put them in positions as to stop your opponents moving their units into strategic positions. In almost every game if you plan on winning you have to know what your opponent's best move is. That said you place your mines to stop your opponents best avenue of attack so they either take it and fail, also taking 20 damage, or they don't attack because they suspect a mine is there. Or they can even waste a few turns trying to destroy or get around the mine.

Not only this but it controls the decision making of your opponent. You can force them to use a ranged unit rather than an easy melee kill. Or even stop them from finsishing off a unit because of a suspected mine.

It's got nothing to do with Gambling. It's preventing your opponent from being an efficient aggressor.


The other suggestion is pretty much non-negotiable, I can’t make that change. These two however, are reasonable. I could see the damage being lowered to 18, not any lower though. I wouldn’t want to change the blocking because it would be a serious scout target but I could see lowering the HP or armor. Because the Minelayer doesn’t have a direct way of attacking I figured it ought to have a pretty good defense but looking at it, I’m starting to think it is a bit much. This is a good suggestion, I’ll give it some more thought and come to a decision.

Yeah I didn't expect you to let a unit pass over the mine. It destroys the best part of the unit. However I do stress the unit should be used as a support unit that does little damage rather than a large damage unit. You say you want more units to be like the Furgon and Wisp. Well you've created a unit like them but you've given it a huge power. The threat of an unlimited amount of tiles dealing 20 damage is just too much. I suggest you lower it to a power of 14 and add the fact that the mine ignores armour.

[Mithrandir]

I discussed Duffman's last post over AIM, I decided not to change anything else about the unit though.

This is a final campaign to try to get votes for the just posted poll. I will be analyzing some of the strengths and weaknesses of the other nominated units for sake of comparison, please don’t take offense by this and feel free to do something similar.

I’ve already thoroughly explained the tactics of the unit in this thread, I won’t repeat myself in that way. I would ask that you read what I’ve written on the matter but there’s a lot so just make sure you at least read the first post carefully.

I believe this game does not need another unit like the Golem Ambusher, something noobs can use effectively. To make this game more interesting, we need more units like the furgon, the enchantress and the poison wisp; units that are incredibly effective when utilized to the fullest of their capabilities but no more than a liability when used by someone that doesn’t understand them. I believe this is the best of the nominated units because ultimately it is the most interesting, most balanced and most difficult to use. “Most interesting” is naturally subjective, most balanced is debatable. But I don’t think there is much question about it being the most difficult to use. If you disagree with me that the game needs more units that are difficult to use then we are not going to agree, please vote for something else.

The Shard Golem and the Gravity Ward, while both excellent units, would clearly require little skill in using them. They would add variety to the game but like my Hastening Golem, utilizing it effectively would not be an immense challenge and thus is not the most interesting in my opinion. The King would have an interesting effect in that it would change the nature of the first part of the game because the advantages in the end game shift. But the unit itself is basically a tank and not extremely interesting in my opinion. Actually, if it had been up to me I would prefer one of Kyir’s other units gotten the official nom as I think his Sightbender, Forest Dragon and especially his Slime are far more interesting. I like the Doll Master and Puppet quite a bit in that it would require some interesting strategy to fight against it but due to the fact that the puppet basically moves automatically, it wouldn’t at all be a difficult unit to use. The Orc Warrior isn’t terrible but it clearly isn’t very difficult to use and it would have little effect on the tactics of the game. And the Rock Beast is pretty much just a modified beast rider. Doesn’t change game tactics at all. Doesn’t necessarily make it bad but it doesn’t affect tactics much.

The Stalker and the Grapnel Warrior are in my opinion both different from the previous in that they would be difficult to use. I happen to like the idea of invisibility quite a bit (see my Giant Chameleon). While the Stalker would complicate things a great deal, the problem with this particular unit in my opinion is that it is unbalanced. The invisibility happens too often. It starts out invisible, it becomes invisible easily and it can attack units from range while still invisible, only becoming visible if it is specifically attacked. This fact, in my opinion, makes the unit so unbalanced that it badly messes up what would have otherwise been an excellent unit. If this was changed this could be one of the best of the nominated units.

The Grapnel Warrior is what I consider to be the second best of the noms, by a mile. Besides the Minelayer, it is the only unit in my opinion that is both extremely tactical and well-balanced. I suggest you read carefully about both and make a decision. I believe that while both are extremely good, the Minelayer is far more difficult to use and creates much more interesting tactical situations. But as I said in the beginning I wouldn’t retread ground about the tactics of the Minelayer, I will leave it at that.

This game needs interesting units. I haven’t seen any on these forums that I think have more potential to add strategy to the game than this (and only the Grapnel Warrior comes anywhere close). I hope you think so too.

A heart-felt congratulations to all the designers who have a nominated unit. I hope you don’t read this post the wrong way because while I do believe some units are better than others I think these are all very high quality units and you should be proud of them because I sure as heck would be. :cool:

[stupid joey]

I like the idea. Would it be for golds or greys? I also think that the range is a bit long. With that long of a range you could put mines right next to the other player. It would also make it immpossible to guess where mines are there are too many possiblities. Its a good unit just take it down bit. But its a great tutle unit.

[Mithrandir]

This is my favorite of my units.

It would be for golds, as all new units would be.

I like the range, it needs a long range considering it can’t hurt anything directly.

It isn’t impossible to guess, it just requires intelligence and a little luck. That’s one of the greatest things about this unit.

[stupid joey]

The problem with its range is that it can decimate any 1 attacking. 1 unit that can do 20 to multiple people without even directly attacking is a dangerous unit. The ambusher can do it but it is severly limited, your unit has decent hp, blocking and movement to powerful.

[Mithrandir]

But my unit has to be used tactically and the opponent needs to fall for the trap to do ANY damage.

[stupid joey]

It may be designed to be tactically used but taht doesnt mean that it will. When you creat a unit you should think of what people could do with it not what you made it for. In this case it could turn in to peopl surrounding themsleves with mines. No fun and no tacitcs. I agree that if people used it tactically it is a great unit but I think people would put rings around them and duke it out with ambushers. In my humble opion.

[Mithrandir]

Anyone that uses a unit poorly will be soundly beaten by one that uses it well. I happen to be of the opinion that people have a right to be stupid as long as they don't hurt others. I create units for smart players, not morons.

[stupid joey]

True.

[HolidayForHire]

I agree that the movement issue and not being able to move around a mine accurately is the biggest draw back. Adding a mid turn attack to the game just changes the game so much that I don't think it would work out. Of course I think the best way to fix that is to get rid of the stopping power and simply add more damage, however this in turn ruins the tactics behind the unit and thus makes it somewhat uninteresting and too generic. I dunno. This is by far one of the best ideas for a new unit I've read so far.

[Mithrandir]

Thanks for the positive review.

It WOULD cause pretty large changes in the game, one of which being that players would learn how units move like we learn LOS by heart. I don't consider that a bad thing, just another example of how much of an advantage good players will have. I believe any unit that is extremely overpowered in the hands of a good player and extremely underpowered in the hands of a bad player is a great unit. I am not aware of a single exception to this rule in my mind.

[megahizu]

wow, in my opinion this unit would improve the game, actually it will probably dominate it, youll have to think of those mines EVERY turn, what means an whole new factor of the game, its really better then the PW or GA, but maybe you should reduce the damage to 18 or 16 points, otherwise it will be nearly impossible to rush your oppenent if youve no ranged-units in the endgame if he places mines everywhere (what would be boring..)..just an suggestion, mit freundlichen grüßen

[megahizu]

btw i know the stuff i said is certainly allready mentioned, i just had to begin somewhere with my first post :mrgreen:

[Mithrandir]

Thanks for the support. I gave a lot of thought to the damage of the mines, I decided not to lower it because it's really designed against units that are either heavily armored, like knights and dragons, or stoned units so the 20 damage doesn't do THAT much.

[Devlin777]

What would happen if your opponent had a minelayer and layed a mine on a tile that already had one there?

Can you place two mines on the same tile and do double damage?

Can mines be paralysed?

Since special units have special movement (wisps, muddy, dragons) how would mines effect them?

Hidden objects, in my opinion would change the very nature of the game. Also, technological armaments, such as mines and guns are against the very nature of TAO.

I applaud the effort to make it more of a tactical thinking man's game, but without a minesweeper, it's a bit overpowered in my opinion. Better to have a fun game of bashy-bashy. I know I'd hate to read: "Glimpy the elf was moving thru the forest when his leg got blown off by a toe-popper mine, he raised his bow, only to be cut down as the rat-a-tat-tat of the Uzi's began."

It would be unfair to play without one, since, if your opponent had one, he could have an infinite number of "units" that could do damage, while you would be limited to just 10 max.

-Just one man's opinion

[Mithrandir]

What would happen if your opponent had a minelayer and layed a mine on a tile that already had one there?
They would both explode. As this a primarily defensive weapon though, that would rarely happen.
Can you place two mines on the same tile and do double damage?
No.
Can mines be paralysed?
No.
Since special units have special movement (wisps, muddy, dragons) how would mines effect them?
It wouldn’t matter if they teleported past a space with a mine. They would be affected only if they landed on a mine.
Hidden objects, in my opinion would change the very nature of the game.
All of my units are meant to change the nature of the game for the good.
Also, technological armaments, such as mines and guns are against the very nature of TAO.
I’m well aware. This was my first unit, cut me a little slack. I came up with an alternative (Sand Golem) and posted that somewhere in this thread.
I applaud the effort to make it more of a tactical thinking man's game, but without a minesweeper, it's a bit overpowered in my opinion.
Overpowered only in the hands of a good player, just like the furgon and the poison wisp.

[Devlin777]

Actually, since both mines would explode as you said, the minelayer himself would be a fair start at a mine-sweeper. :)

Re: the technology issue, I wasn't trying to NOT cut you slack. It's obvious that your units are well thought out and thoroughly explained (much to my personal liking) I was just mentioning my personal preference.

Thanks for clearing up those questions! ( I believe I overuse the "!") :bad:

[Cross Punisher]

Hmm, not much going on right now, so I though I'd post some new thoughts for this unit, and I'll let you know right now you may not like the first one that much.


In this suggestion the minelayer would have special abilities that let it see all mines on the field even your opponents. This makes the minelayer a much more important unit to be used on the field because your own minelayer isn't truelly(sp?) effective until your opponent's is dead
In this suggestion you are only able to see your mines as long as your minelayer is alive. Once your minelayer dies you lose the ability to see mines you have placed on the field.

*Just some thinking I was doing out of boredom* :rolleyes:

[Mithrandir]

I greatly dislike the first one considering it completely changes the tactics of the unit. The whole point of the mines are that they are invisible.

The second one is a good concept, one I will strongly consider when I'm back regularly. :)

[Cross Punisher]

I'm not even sure I would add the first suggestion, but it was an idea, so I threw it out there. I do like the second one though, because it makes it more valuable to you, and more important for the opponent to kill your minelayer (Unless you just mark down on a piece of paper where all your mines are ;) ).

[Duffman]

I still maintain that this unit is overpowered. :)

[Cross Punisher]

because of the 20 damage part Duff?

[Duffman]

Yep. Lets ingore the threat factor. Lets say the mines are 100% visible. Of course the unit will still be no good but it will prevent anyone from taking that avenue. Noone is going to think losing a turn, putting your unit in enemy territory and taking 20 damage is a good idea.

Now add in the factor of invisibilty with range. Now you have no definite place of the mine so you can't sure exactly sure whether you'll hit it or not but still physcologically noone is going to want to put themselves in a position where they can take the damage and lose the turn. So not only will it prevent the most advantageous avenue of attack for the aggressor but other ones they also might have considered but now have to reconsider to fit in with where they guess the mine is.

Essentially if i rememebr correctly the minelayer is balanced so that if can't lay mines very far into enemy territory, thus making it a solely defensive unit. So when a unit comes chargin in and hit a mine, losing the turn in enemy territory you just can't survive the 20 damage as well. Meaning that attacking unit, it's survival is totally dependent on if you guessed where the mine was or not.

Giving it some sort of damage is necessary but not enough that will mean almost certain death for most unstoned units.

I think giving it 20 damamge makes it more versitile. I better offensive unit than say, 10 damage. But in giving it versitility it makes it overpowered in one form of play.

[Imperial Archer]

I don't mean to burst your bubble or anything....but i wouldn't try to come up with modern units for a middle age game....it doesnt fit well.

[Kyir]

gunpoweder n00b, they had that then.. .i think

[Calos]

yes the chinese had gunpowder... of course, it could be a magical device?

[†D.R† Leader]

Sorry dont like it...think its 2 up 2 date for the knights and Scouts in TAO...Mines are like...Newer if u no wot i mean...sorry

[Lonely Tylenol]

Sorry dont like it...think its 2 up 2 date for the knights and Scouts in TAO...Mines are like...Newer if u no wot i mean...sorry

Did you just bring up a thread that's been dead for 5 months to argue over the semantics of a unit? :confused:

Who gives a rat's ass if mines seem too modern? It is it too unrealistic for you? Yeah, that's right, go to your shrub-summoning Furgons and fire-conjuring Pyromancers, and your Dragons and floating Poison Wisps, and rest assured, for you have confirmed your righteous sense of judgement in reality...

[enril]

umm.. don't mind this DR Leader.. but i think the overall outlook and the age of the unit can be changed easily.. u can have a minelayer.. or an assasin laying traps.. or an orc hunter (i.e. he lays traps for animals.?) i think the unit synergy is good with the game and would allow the pros to bring their game up a level. just my noob 2 cents worth.

[Dajae]

Why in the hell did that person necro this thread?

It was resting peacfully and honourably.

Sheesh.

- Daj

NB: Oh yeah, cool unit. Heh :cool:

[Mithrandir]

Good Lord. For crying out loud, I was a complete newb when I created this. It was my first unit ever. So unless you created a better unit on your first attempt, cut me a little slack on the silly mistake of creating a unit with a more modern concept. The point is the concept of the traps. Whether they're magic traps or golems or wizards or freaking animal droppings, read the unit and don't criticize on semantics unless you recognize in the same post that it's just semantics and comment on the usage of the unit.

You can't imagine my surprise in seeing this necroed.

[JesusCraig]

I doubt we can be overly angry at the guy, he was clearly viewing units he thought were good (and was probably directed their by the committee thread) and making percieved constructive criticism, even if it was semantical in nature. He had the right intentions when reading through good units, even went to the correct place to find them, made judgements which are valid if irrelevant, all in all he is on the right path with some minor excursions, I say he be praised not chastised, he at least attempted to view units which we clarified as good before creating his own.

Think of the alternatives to this necro, besides Mith, he reminded me that I can still not understand how this unit ever made it platinum.

[Dajae]

I doubt we can be overly angry at the guy, he was clearly viewing units he thought were good (and was probably directed their by the committee thread) and making percieved constructive criticism, even if it was semantical in nature. He had the right intentions when reading through good units, even went to the correct place to find them, made judgements which are valid if irrelevant, all in all he is on the right path with some minor excursions, I say he be praised not chastised, he at least attempted to view units which we clarified as good before creating his own.

Think of the alternatives to this necro, besides Mith, he reminded me that I can still not understand how this unit ever made it platinum.

Aye.

The bastard I am, I have to agree with you. But still, he should now be an example to all other n00bs.

DON'T NECRO THREADS!... Ok, I am a victim of my words, but only once. And boy did I learn, heh. I even had to resort to hugging Twelves leg.

And yeah, cool unit.

Now, lets watch this thread slowly disappear again...

- Daj

[Hellblazer]

Whoa! I remeber this thing. It was one of the greats....

[Sensai]

WOAH, i can't sto imagining myself using this unit. It has immense potential. Is this eligible for a new units? I cannot quite figure out how CAU works, is there an ultimate voting thread, i mean, i wana vote for this.

[dragon454]

Alright tell me if this has already been posted but if the minelayer was to be made then we would need to know how the units move. For example a scout wants to walk to a square that a chess knight piece would be able to move to. He has several ways to do it go around the outside(forward forward left)? Forward left forward?
See the problem with this unit is most new players aren't going to be bothered to learn all this

[legacy67]

hmm, necro?

but a fair observation on the topic of bugged squares.

[Hellblazer]

hmm, necro?

but a fair observation on the topic of bugged squares.
I think it's more of a bump, but still: just leave old threads alone.

[Mithrandir]

Alright tell me if this has already been posted but if the minelayer was to be made then we would need to know how the units move. For example a scout wants to walk to a square that a chess knight piece would be able to move to. He has several ways to do it go around the outside(forward forward left)? Forward left forward?
See the problem with this unit is most new players aren't going to be bothered to learn all this
We've already been over this many, many, many times. The way I see it, new players can learn scout LOS or they can be lazy and not learn it but if you want to be good, you'll learn the mechanics of the game.

Nice bump though, this was my first unit ever. Not my best but hey, pretty stinkin' good for a first CAU effort.

[bobdagangsta]

For some reason when i was reading the units, I forgot this one, and this unit is great. Good Job Mith!

[kovoi]

definately support the idea

maybe instead of minelayer, maybe unibomber (after another notorious character of real life...) or (it may be corny but...) like an aBOMBination... lol ...i crack me up:confused: but anyway im likin the idea

[Death Shot]

kovoi, you got to look at the dates at which this thread was last posted on

[Anarchy_United]

I remember reading this unit when I first started playing... damn that was a while ago.

[Deck of Jesters]

Jesus people, do you guys just not look at the dates? You just necroed a long dead thread. CHECK THE LAST POST DATES.

[Anarchy_United]

I remember the days when the CAU would be made of pages of units as good as this, with the occasional noob unit, as opposed to pages of noob units, with an occasional good one.

[shatterstar]

I remember the days when the CAU would be made of pages of units as good as this, with the occasional noob unit, as opposed to pages of noob units, with an occasional good one.

I think thats because over time most units have already been made. who knows how many people have independently come up with with say this minelayer with some variations but havent posted it cuz its already in existence. kudos to mithrandir for thinking it up 1st. but as more units get created, the harder it is to make new completely unique units. it also explains the increasing complexity of new units.

[VAMP7]

I remember the days when the CAU would be made of pages of units as good as this, with the occasional noob unit, as opposed to pages of noob units, with an occasional good one.

I really think that another good unit like the beserker is needed