Strange Turtle

[Network]

Okay, there are all these turtle threads, and I don't know where to go, but I challenged *The punisher* to a turtle match:

http://img164.exs.cx/img164/6352/aaa1jo.jpg

Is that a turtle?

[swordking35]

i think so as long as you don't move them to much

[emerald slasher]

the only thing that i can think of that makes it unturtly (is that a word?) is the ambusher frontline

[monkus]

Definately not. Even not under my rules. Frontline busher is a rush, plus the form's clearly designed to move in quickly. There's no defense about it. It's not a turtle.

[MtSlayer]

Nope. The frontline ambusher kills it. It could be considered a passing turtle under my guidelines, but an odd one at that.

[Warcow]

That is a rush.

[OmegaShin]

Very good and original turtle. Quiet strong in offense but also good in defense, i played that once.

[CRX687]

you ppl see bushy, and you go- rush...

don't you get tired of doing this? that form is most definitely a turtle...

[monkus]

Ignoring my personal anger at that unit, I don't simply assume rush. I see frontrow bushy and 2 knights, with 4th row muddy, and I go rush.

[OmegaShin]

As it was said a lot in the turtles threads, it's just a matter of personal opinions. If u don't want front ga u must just ask for a no ga turtle game. If u do that and they use it on u, they "cheat". Otherwise it's ur fault, remember to ask an old style turt game next time.

[CRX687]

Ignoring my personal anger at that unit, I don't simply assume rush. I see frontrow bushy and 2 knights, with 4th row muddy, and I go rush.

so frontrow knights are non-turtle now? and 4th row muds too?

[OmegaShin]

LOL. They are in his opinion since on SAME SIDES they kill cleric too fast. But please guys, i'm having hard times following the discussion already on 2 different threads, don't bring it here too :eek:

[Kyir]

so frontrow knights are non-turtle now? and 4th row muds too?

ive sorta gotta agree here, i have 3 knights as you know monkus, pretty much front line as a sheild

00KK0 K=Knight
0K000 0=empty


and you consider it a power turtle, just asking why

[OmegaShin]

Looks like people on fps consider non turtle everything they are not used to beat or handle :rolleyes:

[Kyir]

i classify most things i CANT handle turtles becasue thats all that can really beat me

[monkus]

Okay, so we say it's not a turtle b/c of busher. You say it is a turtle. We say "Hey dude, there's a frontline busher, it's not a turtle." And you resort to personal attacks.

I'm just loving the maturity omegashin.

[emerald slasher]

i dunno in my opinion a turt's frontline cannot contain a unit that can kill the cleric in the first 3 turns.... i do think it is turtley. (turtly= my new name for a formation that is rush/turtle

[thefreezing]

Looks like people on fps consider non turtle everything they are not used to beat or handle :rolleyes:
Word. :cool: ( I may be a fpser but who cares!)

I use a power turtle that has 3 knights upfront. *The Punisher*'s turtle set-up is a turtle set-up to me, a power turtle set-up at least.

[Kyir]

knarg, i am the true master of the power turt., or so i claim, i consider most things turtles, if it has like 2 pyros, DSM, busher, even if it was stoned i wouldent consider it a turtle

[FryLock]

Knights on the frontline, ok.

Busher, not...as long as you ask for it not to be. Network, did you ask for a turtle game? Or did you ask for a turtle game with no GA up front?

After being unpleasantly surprised, I've started asking the same question.

A: "Hey B, turtle game?"
B: "Ok."
A: "No golem ambusher or mages up front, ok?"

That's all it takes. If they stick 3 knights up front, then fine, whatever. Hopefully my furgon will fend them off.

But the "popular" definition of turtle (even if I don't like it) just seems to require 4 units and a stony somewhere in the back 2 rows.

So the simple solution is just to clarify the rules before the game. Make it unit specific, don't ask for a "monkus turtle" or "moose turtle" or whatever.

That's the best way to safeguard yourself.

Of course, today, I played some jackass on GL and asked for those same rules, and he put a DSM in the stone cluster and a pyro on the front line - "A pyro isn't a mage! Only the Dragonspeaker Mage is a mage" he said. :rolleyes:

[emerald slasher]

hahaha that somehow made me laugh fry..... i like the definition of stone golem armoring 4 units in the back 2 rows with no uni on frontline that will kill the cleric in 3 or less moves

[bludhoundz]

Its not a rush...

Nobody is going to use that as a rush v. another rush...its just plain stupid. People may call it 'not a turtle' because turtle has still not been defined but the working definition is :

A formation with a stone golem cluster on the back or second to back row. This formation does not attempt to gain an advantage in the game through initial position.

I'd call it a power turtle - a turtle like formation which attempts to gain an advantage in the game from initial position.

I'm still trying to work out if its unfair or not, but I'm leaning towards 'thats a little annoying.'

[Cuathon]

if you ask for no busher its bad but if you just say turtle, tough luck.

[da1n]

Okay, there are all these turtle threads, and I don't know where to go, but I challenged *The punisher* to a turtle match:

http://img164.exs.cx/img164/6352/aaa1jo.jpg

Is that a turtle?

Yes. :cool:

[CRX687]

if you ask for no busher its bad but if you just say turtle, tough luck.

word

i do believe this was just a "turtle" game, not a "monkus turtle".

[zzzaacckk]

I would classify that as a rush but I mean everyone has a different oppinion.

[CRX687]

I would classify that as a rush but I mean everyone has a different oppinion.


and thus network has no right to call *the punisher* a cheater and demand a draw... previous to the game, a "monkus turtle" was asked and turned down, then a "turtle" game was asked... network did not specify no bushy, and so he walked right into that one.

and monkus, why are you calling omega immature when you come straight out calling a clanmate a cheater simply because his opinion of a turtle differs from yours?... that's more than once you've called someone a cheater without real cause.

[OmegaShin]

Okay, so we say it's not a turtle b/c of busher. You say it is a turtle. We say "Hey dude, there's a frontline busher, it's not a turtle." And you resort to personal attacks.

I'm just loving the maturity omegashin.
I didn't do any personal attacks, i am just stating what i see on this server, and i don't like it. I am trying to make you guys understand that u can't pretend people to have ur same perception of a turtle. Network asked for a "monkus turtle game", the punisher answered he wanted a "all units turtle game" and to prevent rushing each other they agreed to play opposite sides.

Thus, punisher turtle was completely legal, moreover they were playing opposite sides. Network just sucked. Period.

And stop pretending you are the innocent guy trying to help monkus. It was ok at the beginning but now u are pushing urself too far. U say moose is shit cause he has a big ego. Yeah he has some ego problems maybe, but u have even more coming here and pretending ur words about any matter to be accepted as universal truth.

Grow up dude, and start putting some "in my opinion" in ur sentences.

Peace

[CRX687]

and to prevent rushing each other they agreed to play opposite sides.


if this was an opposite side game, then network has NO reason to complain at all...

[Wayfaerer]

It could still hold its own op side :cool:

[CRX687]

It could still hold its own op side :cool:

but the reason he was complaining was that the turtle is a cleric kill turtle... but since NOTHING could with cleric within the first two turns...

obviously that turtle can hold it's own opposite side, but it not even close to a rush in that case, it's completely turtle.

[OmegaShin]

Yes it was opposite sides, the noob just tried to blame any possible thing to justify the fact he was only able to take out 2 units :D

[greendaybum5]

i remember when this game firts came out the turtle was any time you werent on the front line pretty much, like i remember (yes i know it's weird) i used to stone my dsm before the new units, and it worked pretty well, no one ever complained now if you say turtle it should be any units you're just back or using a stone.

[MANSLAUGHTER1]

If some people think its turtle than to them its a turtle. To me it is a hybrid sort of. Also I think you should just say turtle vs turtle no GA or something like that if you don't like turtle with GA frontline. But rantzu1 told me on Rev the GA frontline is considered a rush on Rev.

[monkus]

Yes it was opposite sides, the noob just tried to blame any possible thing to justify the fact he was only able to take out 2 units :D

And you say you don't make personal attacks? You're calling my clanmate a noob and trying to discredit him. However, if you realize, he posted the thread BEFORE the game had even gotten very far under way, so this can't be the cause. Plus, I do feel it's extremely immature to turn a reasonable disagreement about definitions into a flame fest where you call my clanmate a noob.


and monkus, why are you calling omega immature when you come straight out calling a clanmate a cheater simply because his opinion of a turtle differs from yours?... that's more than once you've called someone a cheater without real cause.

I never called him a cheater for having a different opinion. Network made a thread. At the time, 4 people said it was not a turtle, and 2 people said it was. You're not a cheater for having a different interpretation, but if highly respected people (warcow, berzerker), with valid evidence (busher up front, position rules) agree that it isn't a turtle, you have a responsibility to at least draw.
Without real cause? That's pretty good cause enough.


I didn't do any personal attacks, i am just stating what i see on this server, and i don't like it. I am trying to make you guys understand that u can't pretend people to have ur same perception of a turtle. Network asked for a "monkus turtle game", the punisher answered he wanted a "all units turtle game" and to prevent rushing each other they agreed to play opposite sides.

Thus, punisher turtle was completely legal, moreover they were playing opposite sides. Network just sucked. Period.

Amazing. Simply amazing. You manage to contradict yourself wholly in a single post. You start off by saying you don't make personal attacks, then you say "Network just sucked. Period." How can you show such disrespect for a person you don't even know?
Furthermore, playing opposite sides does not change the stance of the formation itself. If I am CLEARLY using a one sided rush, the fact that we're opposite sides may lessen the burden of facing it, but it doesn't change any facts. I would also appreciate it highly if you didn't call my clanmates noobs without playing them. It's insulting, and it really shows a lack of respect. If you're going to say something unfounded, immoral, and negative, don't do it on our forums.

Also, on the topic of an "all units turtle", it doesn't automatically make any form a turtle. All units does not mean "all units in any positions", so you really have no argument other than the opposite sides thing.


Edit:
Oh yeah, and for this:
And stop pretending you are the innocent guy trying to help monkus. It was ok at the beginning but now u are pushing urself too far. U say moose is shit cause he has a big ego. Yeah he has some ego problems maybe, but u have even more coming here and pretending ur words about any matter to be accepted as universal truth.

Grow up dude, and start putting some "in my opinion" in ur sentences.

I never said I was innocent. I never EVER said moose is shit. I respect his opinion, but sometimes I put his words (and everyone else's words) up against strict scrutiny. Nothing wrong with that.
Since when do I feel my words were universal truth? If I did, then I wouldn't use so much evidence to back them up like I do. There's really no need to put "in my opinion" in my sentences, because if you really think about it, it's quite redundant. Anything I say that is not a direct fact (like "I saw a cow the other day", or "my head is on fire"), is going to be my opinion, so do I really need to let you know that it's my opinion? I don't think I'm any more right than anyone else at the start, but I tend to use a lot of evidence. If you have a problem with that, I'm sorry.

[OmegaShin]

Dude if u still didn't get it, I was playing on the punisher, ur clanmate whined and insulted me all game long and started blaming my ambusher only after he did the worst moves i ever saw in a turtle game. Plus, as u can see from all this noobish thread there is a lot of people agreeing on me on my point. Next time just ask for a no turt game.

You say i flame you? I don't see how, on the posts chronology i always tried to define that my point is "specify what u want to play before". He agreed on me on an opposite all units turt game.

And i must say i rarely saw someone playing worst, he even let my wisp freeze 4 on his units without possibility to unfreeze.

Maybe if next time he is able to take out more than 2 units and won't blame me all game for an ambusher that i DIDN'T use i won't call him a noob.

Happy? No? It's ur problem than ;)

[thefreezing]

Just to let everyone know, more than 1 people play on *The Punisher* account.

Monkus, get over it and begone.

Network, tough luck and ask for specifc turtle games next time you want to play.

[da1n]

I still go by definition of a turtle being any form with a 5 unit stone cluster. That turtle is 100% legit in my books :cool:

[MANSLAUGHTER1]

Ok Monkus if you don't like that turtle then simply just ask for a turtle game with no Ga and if the person wants to use GA then you don't have to play with him/her. Also Omega you don't have to say Network is a noob and piss monkus off. You can just say he played terrible and thats fine enough.

[thefreezing]

""EDITED OUT""

[CRX687]

Ok Monkus if you don't like that turtle then simply just ask for a turtle game with no Ga and if the person wants to use GA then you don't have to play with him/her. Also Omega you don't have to say Network is a noob and piss monkus off. You can just say he played terrible and thats fine enough.

if someone called you a cheater and immature... u'd be angry and calling ppl nubs too :p

and network asked for a "monkus turtle" first, was turned down, then just asked for a "turtle"... not specifying anything other than opposite side.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The use of a frontline Busher is the only thing that doesn't make this a turtle. Frontline Knights, as anyone who's used a Grey turtle can tell you, make efficient walls with their high armor/HP and 80% frontal blocking. Scouts in stoning position in the third rank, Mud Golem also stoned... All fine.

Knights and Scouts, in any turtle, should be placed in a position where they can attack and defend.

The only thing that offsets the turtle is the frontline 'busher. A frontline busher is used to take out back rank units (specifically the Cleric) so you can rush in and kick butt/take names.

Since I can only assume the Knights and Scouts are placed accordingly, I'd have to say that the use of the Ambusher makes it more of a corner rush than a turtle, per se.

[CRX687]

The use of a frontline Busher is the only thing that doesn't make this a turtle. Frontline Knights, as anyone who's used a Grey turtle can tell you, make efficient walls with their high armor/HP and 80% frontal blocking. Scouts in stoning position in the third rank, Mud Golem also stoned... All fine.

Knights and Scouts, in any turtle, should be placed in a position where they can attack and defend.

The only thing that offsets the turtle is the frontline 'busher. A frontline busher is used to take out back rank units (specifically the Cleric) so you can rush in and kick butt/take names.

Since I can only assume the Knights and Scouts are placed accordingly, I'd have to say that the use of the Ambusher makes it more of a corner rush than a turtle, per se.

but since an opposite side game was agreed upon, the bushy cannot reach the opposing cleric for 2 turns( a scout can do that just as easily)... thus, the busher is NOT rushing...

[monkus]

Bushy's only purpose is NOT cleric kills. He eliminates any possibility of frosty use, of furgon protection, etc. Crx, just b/c he can't touch the cleric quickly doesn't make him any less of an immediate threat. Against a 4 unit turtle like network's, the elimination of such things creates huge problems. For example, if you run a scout into a turtler's zone, his counter is shrubbing behind it and paralyzing it. In this instance, this doesn't work, b/c of busher. The ability to break frosts easily cripples a turtle, plus, because the offense has such a huge advantage, it breaks the balance of a turtle game, which is unturtle-like (turtle games almost always have strong balance between offense and defense, unlike freestyle games).

[CRX687]

but the fault in that bushy being such a threat in this case lies in network's form, not punisher's.

the bushy isn't anywhere near unstoppable in this case.

[The Prophet]

If the GA had blocking I think there could be some arguement here. This unit is very weak. It is like the chanty in a grey game. I always go for the chanty to kill it and then I dont have to protect my scout so much. If the GA unbalances the the turtle maybe you guys should use a bw.

[Wayfaerer]

I don't get why Network would start shrubbing his base before killing a unit that takes 4 scout shots to kill (including 1 heal). It had nowhere to run!

[Liquid Swordsman]

You people are getting way to into all this stuff.

Yes, that is a turtle. Anyone who disagrees is just mad because they don't know how to beat it, so they call it a rush. Simple as that.

[monkus]

You people are getting way to into all this stuff.

Yes, that is a turtle. Anyone who disagrees is just mad because they don't know how to beat it, so they call it a rush. Simple as that.

Why? Why is it a turtle? all you do is say "It's a turtle, quit whining." In fact, I've seen no real evidence or warrants from anyone who supported it, just flames.

People who say it isn't a turtle claim frontrow bushers are unturtle-like, plus ruin the balance. The responses so far are:
Yes it is
It definately is
Any unit means it's fine
It's opposite sides, so what's wrong with a front row busher?
You're a noob
You suck

I'm personally an advocate of discussion, but is this really adequate reasonings? Crx made an interesting point about it being able to reach the cleric, but as I pointed out, bushers do much more than kill clerics.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Bushy's only purpose is NOT cleric kills. He eliminates any possibility of frosty use, of furgon protection, etc.

Naturally. Of course, THAT's why everyone puts their 'Busher in the front lines. :rolleyes: I didn't say the ambusher's only purpose was killing Clerics, but that that's what it is MAINLY used for in gold rushes. I'd sooner use it in the back rank to bypass LoS for my OWN furgon on a paralyzed unit. In fact... Perhaps that will work.

Besides, what's the problem? I'm agreeing with you. A frontline busher goes against any standard turtling codes (written or not). The Busher's main use is cleric-killing, which is the principle it holds in a rush. Thus, since the units are potentially set up in a side rush, I would consider them a rush.

[sub the hendrix]

Frankly, I see both sides of this arguement, and I doubt that anyone will change their opinions. I dont beleive that using an ambusher follows the true spirit of a turtle game, but at the same time I beleive that a no GA up front should be specified. Of course the GA is not unstoppable, but it is unwise to compare it to the chanty as it has almost twice the life.

This is the inherent problem with asking for turtle games, or even rush games. Each person has in their minds a picture of what they want to face, but it is often hard to effectively communicate that, especially in a busy chatroom. This whole mess arose from a misunderstanding.

Perhaps the misunderstanding would not have arisen was the subject of turtles/rushes such a touchy one. No matter how strong your opinions, I urge everyone to take a step back from this, and put it all in perspective.

[OmegaShin]

You say busher doesn't just affect cleric, it affects frosts and such. Very true. But i was on opposite sides, his frost was very far and since i don't use suicidal tactics my ambusher couldn't really help me in the cleric kill. Plus he started first, and killed it quiet fast. Than he started to blame he was losing to my not used ambusher.

I don't know if this guy is a noob or not normally, but he played the worst turtle game i had with a BG plus he acted like a noob pretending me to draw after i was kicking his ass, certainly not rushing -i didn't use ambusher or knights, i embarassed him with my 4 stoned units - and this behaviour is not acceptable to me.
I respect and like strong and honorable players. And Network was quiet far from that.

[CRX687]

Frankly, I see both sides of this arguement, and I doubt that anyone will change their opinions. I dont beleive that using an ambusher follows the true spirit of a turtle game, but at the same time I beleive that a no GA up front should be specified. Of course the GA is not unstoppable, but it is unwise to compare it to the chanty as it has almost twice the life.

This is the inherent problem with asking for turtle games, or even rush games. Each person has in their minds a picture of what they want to face, but it is often hard to effectively communicate that, especially in a busy chatroom. This whole mess arose from a misunderstanding.

Perhaps the misunderstanding would not have arisen was the subject of turtles/rushes such a touchy one. No matter how strong your opinions, I urge everyone to take a step back from this, and put it all in perspective.

which is why we should all just freestyle and use wutever we use best. If you don't like a unit, find a way to counter it, don't try to bann it, cuz i know bushy CAN be countered:cool:

and Monkus, bushy HAS to do that, that's also why scouts are used. Those uses are not abused because bushy can get killed far easier than scouts can in exchange for no LOS. Network's form didn't have a knight to stop it, thus making bushy it's weakness, that's not omega's fault for using bushy, that's network's problem for creating a form with such a weakness.

[Spit_101]

My two cents: It's a rush with the excuse of a stonie.

[thefreezing]

You people are getting way to into all this stuff.

Yes, that is a turtle. Anyone who disagrees is just mad because they don't know how to beat it, so they call it a rush. Simple as that.
WORD.

[da1n]

Why? Why is it a turtle?
It has a 5 unit stone cluster :cool:

[thefreezing]

I would like some answers to my questions:

What is a turtle?

What is a rush?

How is GA a rush unit?

State your answers and explain why.

[da1n]

I would like some answers to my questions:

What is a turtle?

What is a rush?

How is GA a rush unit?

State your answers and explain why.

One man's turtle is another man's treasure. :confused:

[The Prophet]

Just for information. I played Black_Rain and he used that turtle against my old school turtle. I spanked him good.

[thefreezing]

See guys?! Old School turtlers can still beat Frontline Ambusher turtlers!

[OmegaShin]

They obviously can if the old style player doesn't waste half of his brain complaining and insulting his opponent :D

[thefreezing]

I just had a turt game with one gold recently. We agreed to a turtle game. Once we got into a battle. I had an ambusher upfront and bushed his cleric, he said "Man I hate GA". I said "You could have told me not to use ambusher or dont put it upfront before we got into the game". After that he didn't whine like the others did. It was a good game when we finished.

NOTE: He managed to kill my ambusher before striking his cleric again with the ambusher.

[Bottle]

Again, I haven't read the thread, but I would put this question to *The Punisher*;

Would you prefer to get opposite side, if you played another turtle?

If the answer is no, it's not a turtle. If the answer is yes, he's a liar. :)

[The Prophet]

Again, I haven't read the thread, but I would put this question to *The Punisher*;

Would you prefer to get opposite side, if you played another turtle?

If the answer is no, it's not a turtle. If the answer is yes, he's a liar. :)
Omega was Punisher, so why dont you ask him?

[Wayfaerer]

Again, I haven't read the thread, but I would put this question to *The Punisher*;

Would you prefer to get opposite side, if you played another turtle?

If the answer is no, it's not a turtle. If the answer is yes, he's a liar. :)

They agreed on an opposite side game :rolleyes:

[The Prophet]

Maybe he should have read the whole thread beforing posting.

[thefreezing]

Looks like he made a fool of himself! :p

Statement made toward Bottle.

[Bottle]

That's one STRANGE formation to want to use opp-side. Are you sure of that? I'd eat that for breakfast opp-side...

[da1n]

That's one STRANGE formation to want to use opp-side. Are you sure of that? I'd eat that for breakfast opp-side...

Hehe, now you try to draw attention away from your stupid post by making yourself feel superior :p

[Bottle]

Well, that's what you get for not reading the whole thread...

But that's beside the point. Why would you want to use that formation opposite side? It would, quite simply, not work against anyone who knows how to turtle. The ambusher is virtually a waste of a unit, and the stoney is far too easy to shoot.

[CRX687]

Well, that's what you get for not reading the whole thread...

But that's beside the point. Why would you want to use that formation opposite side? It would, quite simply, not work against anyone who knows how to turtle. The ambusher is virtually a waste of a unit, and the stoney is far too easy to shoot.

the answer to ur question is an obvoius yes since an opposite side game was agreed upon...

and yet network complains and demanded punisher to draw when he was losing :rolleyes:

[thefreezing]

And caused more Turtle Set-up conflicts for us. :rolleyes:

[OmegaShin]

I have been using that turt opp sides to prove its effectiveness on opp turt games to many players that i got on same sides. It's power on opposites is lowered but there's something that u can't see and that make it all but harmless. Surely not the turtle i would use on an agreed opp game but i don't need to play to the best against medium players.

Infact the dude with his furgon typical BG turtle killed 2 units :cool:

[Amaroth]

That's a Turtle.

The Huns used to build temporary forts. Mostly fox holes and barracades. Just things for cover. They would keep back their troopes and defend the hill. But their first act would be placing their archers on the front line at the bottom of the hill, and fire unfathomable amounts of arrows into the air, hailing down on the enemy. When the Archers were directly attacked, they would begin moving out small platoons of their infantry.

This is the same thing. Stone up, and prepare. Strike with a crippling blow to the enemy with the Ambusher. When he is wounded or dies, you break some of your defense to draw in the enemy. It's a turtle.

[sub the hendrix]

Ah but amaroth, this leads us to a flaw in tao that was introduced with the advent of the ambusher. Traditionally, in warfare, there is a thing called defenders advantage. In tao today, the advantage is clearly that of the attacker/rusher. This is in part because it has been found more advantagous not to put busher behind, say, a furgon wall and rain boulders, but to put him up front as a throw away unit as an attacker. Many things, such as the dimensions of the tao board, contribute to this discrepency with actual warfare. Another advantage given to the attackers in tao is the range of a cleric. "supply lines" do not exist, and a unit is effectively close to home base as long as cleric is alive.

EDIT: Hope that paragraph wasnt to muddled.

[CRX687]

Ah but amaroth, this leads us to a flaw in tao that was introduced with the advent of the ambusher. Traditionally, in warfare, there is a thing called defenders advantage. In tao today, the advantage is clearly that of the attacker/rusher. This is in part because it has been found more advantagous not to put busher behind, say, a furgon wall and rain boulders, but to put him up front as a throw away unit as an attacker. Many things, such as the dimensions of the tao board, contribute to this discrepency with actual warfare. Another advantage given to the attackers in tao is the range of a cleric. "supply lines" do not exist, and a unit is effectively close to home base as long as cleric is alive.

EDIT: Hope that paragraph wasnt to muddled.

TAO simulates a single skirmish, not an entire war... you assume the supplies are already there, and it's only ONE battle, and both sides have the same resources available, how they choose to use it depends on the player, so no one has the right so say their opponent has the advantage.


anyway, the question here is was omega's form legal in an OPPOSITE side turtle game... i take it ach's answer is yes.

[Wayfaerer]

True but a mage or something would get pwned before getting to the front lines in a skirmish ;)

[CRX687]

True but a mage or something would get pwned before getting to the front lines in a skirmish ;)

not if it's a pimpin' mage ;)

[monkus]

First of all, omega, number of units killed doesn't always mean a lot. A game can be really close between turtles and still be a flawless. As long as it took effort to break past the barrier, it's a close game.

Also, I definately disagree with the form being weak opposite sides. You stone, then run forward with the muddy and two scouts. You jump your muddy in and destone/cause havoc, and you break the opposing frosty focus with the unstoppable ambusher. Your opponent has to overextend to deal with the ambusher, and such their screwed.

[CRX687]

First of all, omega, number of units killed doesn't always mean a lot. A game can be really close between turtles and still be a flawless. As long as it took effort to break past the barrier, it's a close game.

Also, I definately disagree with the form being weak opposite sides. You stone, then run forward with the muddy and two scouts. You jump your muddy in and destone/cause havoc, and you break the opposing frosty focus with the unstoppable ambusher. Your opponent has to overextend to deal with the ambusher, and such their screwed.

and such is the strategy of his form and any aggressive turtle... that doesn't make it a rush...

[thefreezing]

Suppose, I agreed to opposite side turtle game and I used a power turtle (NO GA) but instead 3 knights upfront, 2 scouts/muddy/dragon clustered up to be stoney at the very back row then decided to rush in. What would you say about this, Monkus?

[monkus]

I'd say it's absolutely fine. I don't like the ambusher specifically because it wrecks the balance of a turtle game. For all other units, it's all about position. Your three knights in front are fine, because they don't move too far and they're melee. Everything else is in the back, so it gives me adequate time to prepare, which is the general standard for a turtle game; no player has a huge advantage from position that allows them to strike instantly.

Speaking of which, I beat warcow (who used that exact form) yesterday :). It was amazingly close, despite the fact that he only killed two units (it was close in the sense that he was quite close to breaking through my line and killing me).
Unlike rushes, I had enough time to prepare the furgon wall and to shoo away the muddy. And unlike against the ambusher, I was able to maintain a solid defense, and the game was just about equal within both sides. Warcow made a slight mistake, and I won off of that. The fact that it was so close (warcow's probably better than I am, he just hasn't played in a bit) shows the balance between defense and offense. With a busher, I could play the game perfectly and still lose to an inferior opponent, just because it gives them a significant advantage in attacking.

[Wayfaerer]

Don't use strategies which only worked before the new units :cool:

[thefreezing]

I just had a turt game with one gold recently. We agreed to a turtle game. Once we got into a battle. I had an ambusher upfront and bushed his cleric, he said "Man I hate GA". I said "You could have told me not to use ambusher or dont put it upfront before we got into the game". After that he didn't whine like the others did. It was a good game when we finished.

NOTE: He managed to kill my ambusher before striking his cleric again with the ambusher.

Monkus- Why can't you do the same he did? The opponent who managed to kill off my ambusher before I could kill his cleric? New Strategies.

[monkus]

Freezing, trust me, despite popular belief, I haven't been hiding in a cave with a sign out front that says "NO AMBUSHERS". I've played numerous games against busher users. Here's the problem with that solution:

The busher by itself would be a beatable unit, in fact, easily. But then again, what unit wouldn't be beatable by itself? Here's where the problem lies:

Busher hits cleric. Cleric's down to 4 hp. If there's a muddy anywhere nearby, it can kill the cleric by moving into a three space area of the cleric. Similarly, scouts can easily pick off the cleric using LOS. While you can heal to stop the muddy, and you can shrub or use units to block LOS, this means you haven't used the turns required to kill busher, so he kills cleric anyway. It's unstoppable against any reasonably skilled opponent.

And as I said before, the busher's use isn't solely against clerics. 95% (at least) of defensive turtles use frosties. As you can't possibly block out ALL units forever, they use the frosty to stop the 1 or 2 units that get through. Busher negates this by breaking frosty focus endlessly and unstoppably, without even moving into the turtle's sphere of defense. This totally ruins any possible defensive strategies, unbalancing turtle games.

[thefreezing]

Then I guess you suck as a turtler. :eek:

[OmegaShin]

It's true that even when an opp kills only 2 units it can be close, but my game wasn't close at all, it was like all the noobs i am used to slash down on legends.

Yeah that's that turt strat, sending 4 stoned in and having ambusher help in case of freezers, or taking advantage of the opp wasting turns to kill him while taking my units in position. But since he can be sniped by scouts, if my opponent is at least a LITTLE smart, he realizes he can just snipe and move his scouts in position to go for my stone and cleric after killing the golem and since i can't attack and defend at same time (wasn't even using furgon).

On same sides there's no doubt that my turtle would kick asses abusing of busher and of units position, but on opposites dude.... the problem is u just need to learn how to play. And no, playing only people using "monkus turtle" won't teach u anything. I learned to defend from rushes rushing myself for months.

[greendaybum5]

If the GA had blocking I think there could be some arguement here. This unit is very weak. It is like the chanty in a grey game. I always go for the chanty to kill it and then I dont have to protect my scout so much. If the GA unbalances the the turtle maybe you guys should use a bw.

one of the most brilliant points ive ever seen..... i'm sick of people complaining, get used to it.

I also think that what ( i think it was) OmegaShin said back around post 28 should have ended this thread, if they agreed to all unit opposite side then the game shouldnt matter. The busher was taken out of the game by that.

[MANSLAUGHTER1]

Ok I think if someone uses the GA on you and if you have a furgy. You will have to move your cleric and use furgy to defend it and scouts can't hit it and you have time to block the GA from moving in a spot were it can hit the cleric, like making your knights surrounding the GA or you can furgy it.

[thefreezing]

Ok I think if someone uses the GA on you and if you have a furgy. You will have to move your cleric and use furgy to defend it and scouts can't hit it and you have time to block the GA from moving in a spot were it can hit the cleric, like making your knights surrounding the GA or you can furgy it.
There ya go, new strategies for "Old School Turtlers".

[CRX687]

Ok I think if someone uses the GA on you and if you have a furgy. You will have to move your cleric and use furgy to defend it and scouts can't hit it and you have time to block the GA from moving in a spot were it can hit the cleric, like making your knights surrounding the GA or you can furgy it.

that works... but it doesn't apply to this game because it was agreed upon to be an OPPOSITE side turtle game... meaning the GA has to move twice just to reach the cleric...

and monkus, breaking focus is the whole point of using a bushy/scout/mud/ a whole lot us units... bushy does it better than scout in certain situations, but there are tradeoffs for that. Just because network's turtle can't handle facing a bushy no matter what doesn't mean a bushy is overpowered in turtles.

[Bottle]

Yes, I fully agree that old school turtles don't work any more. That's not to say that a match between 2 old school turts won't be as fun as it used to be.

And yes, I know that that formation is designed for attacking quickly. But it has no sticking power without the armor. I would send up 1 of my scouts, and break stone focus when you are about to attack me. You then have to either a) press your attack and hope you can deal enough damage before you die, or b) attempt to retreat and kill the lonely scout, risking losing some units as you retreat. Both are very risky, and prone to failing.

The problem with wisp/muddy/2 scouts stoned formations is that they don't have all that much firepower or health. This is why I always include a dragon in my turtles.

[Chaosti]

disregarding the existence of ambushers for the moment, this form is most definitely a turte. look closely at the unit positions, the knights are not where they are for the purpose of rushing, they are there to prevent a scout overshoot to the stone golem. the only spots that the stone could be reached are the side and one position dangerously close to the knight. now as the ambusher, notice that the form is weak to a witch, dsm, or pyro burn. also notice that the ambusher is off to the side and not immediately in range of the corner where the cleric usually resides. in order to attack the cleric, the ambusher would have to move, which means it must take full recovery after its attack. there are no other units that can immediately finish off the cleric after the ambusher attacks. also the ambusher is in position to move to prevent a cleric burn. in fact, the ambusher's position is not to best advantage and seems to be where it is to make the form more of a turtle.

Well thats my two cents. Different people will see a variety of ways forms and units can be used. Do not be so blind as to think that just because you see certain units (ie ambusher) or unit positions (knights in front) as rush-defining or the same as turtle-defining that other people will see it as you do. All I am doing is showing how this form can be used as a turtle. I realize this form can easily be mobilized.

[Bottle]

It's only the ambusher that makes that formation a rush. The reason why? The first move will almost ALWAS be an attack on the enemy cleric by the ambusher. That makes it a rush.

[CRX687]

It's only the ambusher that makes that formation a rush. The reason why? The first move will almost ALWAS be an attack on the enemy cleric by the ambusher. That makes it a rush.

but the bushy in this particular form is meant more for being a distraction/focus killer than a cleric hitter... in the time it takes for the bushy here to reach an opposite side cleric, a scout or mud could've done the same thing.

this form was used in a set opposite side game, meaning the first move would be to stone, THEN advance the units, with the bushy for support... I've turtled opposite sides against omega when he used this form, the power of the bushy isn't that it advances, it's simply that it remains in place, providing extra cover for the other units as they advance.

[Bottle]

If the ambusher was 2 spaces back and 2 spaces across towards an opp side turt (ie. no closer or further away from an opp side form), I'd call it a turtle. At the moment, it's a rush. It's designed to kill the cleric if you get same side.

[CRX687]

If the ambusher was 2 spaces back and 2 spaces across towards an opp side turt (ie. no closer or further away from an opp side form), I'd call it a turtle. At the moment, it's a rush. It's designed to kill the cleric if you get same side.

but there was no IF you get the same side, before the game, it was decided that the players would be on opposite sides... so this turtle was made to face an opposite side turtle.

[Bottle]

Doesn't prevent the fact that the form itself is a rush. :cool:

And if you don't want it to be a rush, then move the ambusher back a bit. If you're playing a opp-side battle, then why not? ;)

[CRX687]

Doesn't prevent the fact that the form itself is a rush. :cool:

And if you don't want it to be a rush, then move the ambusher back a bit. If you're playing a opp-side battle, then why not? ;)

because up front is where it will be most useful.

saying it has to be back a bit is like saying you should move ur Lward back a space in opposite side battles...

and how is that form a rush if the bushy is knowingly places so that the cleric is out of reach?

[sub the hendrix]

I have two things to say.
1) Wayf, that banner is absolutely hideous :rolleyes:
2) None of you are going to convince anyone else, no matter how eloquent your arguement. People have already made up their minds about the GA, and I doubt anyone will change their opinions of it.

[OmegaShin]

disregarding the existence of ambushers for the moment, this form is most definitely a turte. look closely at the unit positions, the knights are not where they are for the purpose of rushing, they are there to prevent a scout overshoot to the stone golem. the only spots that the stone could be reached are the side and one position dangerously close to the knight. now as the ambusher, notice that the form is weak to a witch, dsm, or pyro burn. also notice that the ambusher is off to the side and not immediately in range of the corner where the cleric usually resides. in order to attack the cleric, the ambusher would have to move, which means it must take full recovery after its attack. there are no other units that can immediately finish off the cleric after the ambusher attacks. also the ambusher is in position to move to prevent a cleric burn. in fact, the ambusher's position is not to best advantage and seems to be where it is to make the form more of a turtle.

Well thats my two cents. Different people will see a variety of ways forms and units can be used. Do not be so blind as to think that just because you see certain units (ie ambusher) or unit positions (knights in front) as rush-defining or the same as turtle-defining that other people will see it as you do. All I am doing is showing how this form can be used as a turtle. I realize this form can easily be mobilized.

Thanx, whoever u are, this is the first serious analysis of that specific turtle i see.

crx and bottle.... u won't convince each other. Anyway the point is, in same sides i can understand bottle considers it a rush him being an old style player. But on opposite sides, any decent turtler would have no reason to complain like network did. Probably if network used his brain to do decent moves instead of insulting me, he would have killed more than 2 units.

[Wolfman]

Doesn't prevent the fact that the form itself is a rush. :cool:

And if you don't want it to be a rush, then move the ambusher back a bit. If you're playing a opp-side battle, then why not? ;)

a backline ambusher is a dumb ambusher....
wolfy

[sub the hendrix]

a backline ambusher is a dumb ambusher....

True. Its all or nothing with the bushy.

[CRX687]

True. Its all or nothing with the bushy.

not necessarily all or nothing. I've faced quite a few antis with backward bushies that were quite effective... hitting my wisp and muddy as they tried to retreat.

But with a bushy in an agressive turtle, it's job is to stop focus units, especially muddy. this means its most effective position would be in front, where it can reach where those units are likely to be in one turn... it's the same principle with all the other units, we place cleric in a corner where it's hardest to hit, we place stoney near the back where it's difficult to reach, we put bushy in the front so it CAN reach... but in an opposite side turtle game, it can be stopped just like any other unit, making it fair game in such a form.

[Bottle]

But with a bushy in an agressive turtle, it's job is to stop focus units, especially muddy.
I wasn't aware that the muddy had a focus ability... ;)

And I agree with Omega. Same side, it's a rush, no doubt about it. Opp sides it's a turtle. But if sides are not agreed on, it is still classed as a rush because it has the CHANCE to kill the cleric quickly.

[BlackSyphon]

a backline ambusher is a dumb ambusher....
wolfy

hahahahahaha

du :)

[Wayfaerer]

I agree with Bottle, since he's the best there ever was :cool:

[CRX687]

I agree with Bottle, since he's the best there ever was :cool:

:rolleyes:

[Wayfaerer]

Oh he's still amazing, and wise :p

[sub the hendrix]

Yes, In opposite sides, bushie is MORE fair, especially if sides were agreed upon before hand, as they were. As a rule though, maybe it should be the ambusher user who asks if its ok to use a GA, instead of the other turtler specifying no bushies. Of course this would require default rules, which quite possibly will never be agreed upon.

[CRX687]

As a rule though, maybe it should be the ambusher user who asks if its ok to use a GA, instead of the other turtler specifying no bushies.

Formation is part of TAO... if nothing is specified, the game is assumed freestyle (as all true tao games, and true tests of TAO skill should be). It's the no-bushy turtler who is defying convention here, so it's his/her job to ask for no GA beforehand.

[Shiny Flors]

Okay, there are all these turtle threads, and I don't know where to go, but I challenged *The punisher* to a turtle match:

http://img164.exs.cx/img164/6352/aaa1jo.jpg

Is that a turtle?




Did you win?

[thefreezing]

Did you win?
Lol........what do you think? He got owned.
It was an opposite turtle game.
:cool:

[CRX687]

Oh he's still amazing, and wise :p

word. :cool:

[Wayfaerer]

Too bad he's not around to mess up those damn legenders, I could've arranged for him and karlson to duke it out again :cool:

[Dragoen Link]

Lol,i have to admit that you guys complain a lot about "what is a turtle...".I think that anything that has a stony on the back to lines with 4 units ready to stone is a turtle,tho,i hate to fight ppl with GA's and dsm's on the front line,but DEAL with it,and like omega shin said,if you dont want a ga turtle game,ask for it...

[Hatchet Warrior]

Too bad he's not around to mess up those damn legenders, I could've arranged for him and karlson to duke it out again :cool:
karlson sucks! I challenged him to a 750 vrs 750 grey game so he won't lose stats and I gave him a unruly beating.