2 Knights vs. Dragon

[BlackSyphon]

I just want to see the different sides. I know a bunch of people that prefer a dragon to 2 knights in a turtle. Rushes, its kind of obvious you want as many knights as possible...

So. With a choice like this, which would you go, why? I chose the dragon, but I am slowly figuring some of the advantages to knights as well.

du

[da1n]

In my rush i have a dragon and 1 knight, but i guess thats why i suck :(

[BlackSyphon]

well, in a rush, you need strong melee units, and altho a dragon have high health, they do get killed.

I know you were joking... :rolleyes:

du

[Cuathon]

thats so true da1n! :D

id rather have 2 knights.

[Wayfaerer]

Dragons stink :cool:

[Godmic18]

I'll stick with my knights.

[OmegaShin]

I prefer knights.

Some of my reasons are:

1 Dragon is slow and has low blocking compared to knights. 2 Knights will live more and can be harder to kill most of the times.

2 Dragon alone in the end of the game is a forced draw if opponent's unit can stand 1 hit.

3 Dragon is not a big help against good furgon users and most of the times it's easier to handle a dragon with freezers than handle 2 knights.

4 On same sides the advantages of rushing ur opponent with 2 knights are obvious.

5 Two front line knights are much faster and better (in both defending and attacking) than using a stoned dragon, especially on fps where a fast attack turtle will use its turns to move scouts wisp and mud rather than wasting time on a dragon that can be easily stopped and is not a good focus breaker.

6 Dragon's farts are a big problem to the focus of ur human units.

[Godmic18]

I prefer knights.

Some of my reasons are:

1 Dragon is slow and has low blocking compared to knights. 2 Knights will live more and can be harder to kill most of the times.

2 Dragon alone in the end of the game is a forced draw if opponent's unit can stand 1 hit.

3 Dragon is not a big help against good furgon users and most of the times it's easier to handle a dragon with freezers than handle 2 knights.

4 On same sides the advantages of rushing ur opponent with 2 knights are obvious.

5 Two front line knights are much faster and better (in both defending and attacking) than using a stoned dragon, especially on fps where a fast attack turtle will use its turns to move scouts wisp and mud rather than wasting time on a dragon that can be easily stopped and is not a good focus breaker.

6 Dragon's farts are a big problem to the focus of ur human units.

2 and 6 are very good reasons for knights over a Dargon. (Knights' farts are usually contained in their armor. Like sardines)

[Rogue_Wolf]

Being that the DT is my second favorite unit, I think its obvious what I'm choosing. Its all about personal preferrence, but here is why I like the DT over 2 Knights.

While 2 Knights are great, I think the DT is better. It has the 2nd highest attack in the game, and the most health. The only down side is its blocking. The wait is unfortunate, but to equal him out, its neccessary. But when you look at all the other units with 3 wait, the Dragon has more blocking percantages, and more health(More than double the Pyros and DMW's).

It has soooo many combo attacks. Knight hit+DT hit+Knight hit=72 damage. That kills any armorless golem in 2 wait turns, even if they're healed. MudQuake+DT hit= 40. This kills any unarmored scout. Scout hit+DT hit=46, killing a Wisp in 2 hits, even when healed. There are many other quick kills that the DT pulls off that a knight can't.

I admit, end game 2 Knights are better. But, thats only end game. The DT is better than Knights in this stage. One thing that both units have, but DT has a little more, is intimidation. No one will walk their units into DT range unless they have a chance at something that is worth taking a big blow. Knight have this, but since their attacks are blockable, and are less than the DT's, the DT has an edge.

Pros and Cons of each unit:

+ Pros
-Cons
+/- Inbetween(Not good, but not bad)

Dragon Tyrant:
+High Attack
+High Health
+Above Average Movement
+Teleportation
+DSM Bonus
+Unblockable Attack
+/-Average Attack Range
+/-Average Armor
-Below Average Blocking
-High Recovery Time
-Counts As 2 Units

Knights:
+Above Average Attack
+Above Average Health
+High Blocking Percentage
+Low Recovery Time
+Counts As One Unit
+High Armor
+/-Average Movement
-Blockable Attack
-Minimal Attack Range

I think Knights are relatively over-powered. Knights are better than DT in some situations, and the DT is better than 2 Knights in others. Both are solid units, but for me, I get more out of the DT than I do 2 Knights.

-Rogue_Wolf

[finalfantasyt]

i actually just learned something about the game on the forum. i need to stop being so horrible at the game... :(

[BlackSyphon]

thx reg, there was atleast one serious answer, I have to say, that the reason I use dragon is because I use furgon, and I like its range.

I have tried 2 knights, but they tend to sit all game and are only necissary when the opponent send a unit that can't block in.

du

[Krome]

Knights pwn, dragon pwn even more.

[Warcow]

If your luck sucks like mine,

take the damned dragon.

[OmegaShin]

If your luck sucks like mine,

take the damned dragon.

Very wise and true, knights depend on luck a lot while the best dragon's feature is the unblockable attack. A blocking unit in cleric's reach can be just killed by dragon, but if knight misses, bye bye cleric.

That would probably be the only reason that makes me pick dragon sometimes.

[Terps rock]

knights have no luck when used with a frosty

[Wayfaerer]

That's why I use a frontline frost :cool:

[Bottle]

In a rush, I'd take 2 knights over a dragon, but then I'd include all three of them anyway. :) (But I would include 5 knights over 3 knights and dragon if I could do it.) Obvious reason; dragon doesn't have a low enough recovery to get more than a few shots in.

In a turtle, I'd include dragon over 2 knights any day for a few reasons, but primarily its ability to deal damage to scouts even when armored (even reducing a scout forces the opponent back, and the onto the defensive), and its ability to teleport. Knights suck vs. furgon (common in turts), and dragon's rock with a furgon, because they can easily run away and hide, ready to be healed.

[Liquid Swordsman]

I saw someone who said a dragon can have a forced draw at end game. This is not true.

[CRX687]

I saw someone who said a dragon can have a forced draw at end game. This is not true.

how is it not true?

[da1n]

I saw someone who said a dragon can have a forced draw at end game. This is not true.

It's true :cool:

[thefreezing]

It is SO true. :cool:

[BlackSyphon]

if I couldn't see the ends of her teeth in your banner shinny, I would think she was so much hotter...

I like dragons for 2 main reasons.

- Their range: It is awsome how many forks you can setup with a dragon, like...its your cleric or your scout kinda thing. And they come in handy when armored for destroying enemy LWs.

- Their attack: The fry witches and clerics in one hit. And, if you do 14 or ove damage to a pyro, they auotmatically die regaurdless of a heal if you then hit them with a dragon. I also like using them as road blocks in furgy walls, because if a knight runs up and hits the dragon, it takes 12, and gives out 21 unblockable dmg.

du

[emerald slasher]

there are pros and cons...turt game ill take a dragon with the furgy because knights usually get trapped by my furgy skills (cause the sucks still)... usually they also just sit still.... in a rush ill take the 2 knights over a dragon usually just because in a rush the 3 turn wait isnt that great (but ill usuallyl use 3 knights and a dragon) :)..... im basically going to to with rogues reply though

[Bottle]

A dragon vs. a witch or cleric, or anything else which will die in 1 hit, is NOT a draw. Dragon vs. anything else except a stoney is if the other person knows how to play.

Against the stoney, simply move your dragon into attack range, and wait. if the stoney moves, it has 2 wait. You wait, stoney waits, you move into attack range again, stoney waits, you wait, stoney moves, you move into attack range again, stoney waits, you wait, stoney waits, you attack and stand still. Stoney takes 20 damage. You then only have 2 turn wait, so no forced draw. Repeat 3 times. You win.

[Realist]

In my rushes I've always used all three, both dragons and knights are really great units.

If I had to choose, though, it'd be dragon. Mostly because they are so good at killing scouts. Their range is also nice.

In a rush, the ability to quickly deal a lot of damage to weak but important units (scouts, cleric, wisp) is very important. Dragons are way better at this than knights.

[Liquid Swordsman]

how is it not true?


There is usually someway.

Maybe it is possible to pull a draw with like a Beast rider. But besides that, you can usually move, wait a turn, then attack the next turn. It's kinda hard to explain, but there is usually a way around it.

Oh and da1n, were you agreeing or disagreeing with me, I can't tell :confused:

[monkus]

I've seen both used excellently. Considering my expertise is in turtle games (especially since most rushes use both), I'll talk only about turtle games. It really comes down to a few things:

Dragon pros:
Teleport means he isn't hampered by my own furgon, and can often make quick recoveries. Plus, occasionally I can pull off a cleric-killer or unit-finisher move.
Unblockable. Luck should NOT be a factor in a turtle game, and any way you can reduce luck is great.
Massive damage. It doesn't matter if two knights can deal more damage overall. Dragon deals a ton of damage in a single turn. If you have a stoned muddy with 20 hp that is going to tear you apart next turn, a dragon can reach it (it only has to be 7 squares away if there's an attack path, and if there isn't a knight can't touch it anyway) and save your life.
Range. I don't want to have to fully engage my opponent to deal damage. I also don't want to have to get close to a paralyzed unit if it isn't fully in my sphere of effect.
Stoning: It's essentially stoning 2 units in 1 square. That's just efficient.
Cons:
It counts as two units, so that's one unit less to use to block attackers.
Less than optimum blocking.
Dies pretty fast without stone (if you lose stone or something), especially with its long wait time. In fact, unlike knights, it's got MUCH less use if unstoned.
VERY long wait time.

You'll notice I didn't include the possible forced draws. I don't really feel that's an issue in turtle games, considering you'll almost always have a stonie or lward left.

Knights:
Pros:
Two units, makes it easier to block stuff with your units.
Great blocking.
Very decent, even when unstoned.
Pretty strong attack.
Incredibly small wait time.
Harder to totally kill, b/c two units.

Cons:
Melee, so you really have to get them close to deal damage to things.
VERY hampered by furgons, your own OR opponents.
Much harder to get around the board. Can't teleport, only moves 3 squares. The 0 wait time on moving doesn't matter, because you shouldn't be wasting that many turns on moving.
Much more easy to neglect on opponent's part (As in, it's really easy to eliminate a knight from the situation for a long period of time. If I have 2 knights and 2 scouts, I can easily block LOS with my units and take care of the knights with furgon. If one scout gets in, I can just shrub once, which lets me totally ignore the knights for awhile while I kill the scout. A dragon is much harder to stop)


In the end, I really think dragon is better in turtles, but both work really well.

[CRX687]

There is usually someway.

Maybe it is possible to pull a draw with like a Beast rider. But besides that, you can usually move, wait a turn, then attack the next turn. It's kinda hard to explain, but there is usually a way around it.

Oh and da1n, were you agreeing or disagreeing with me, I can't tell :confused:

if the unit can withstand just one hit, so long as its movement recovery is not over 2 (meaning so long as it's not a stoney), it just has to keep moving to make the game a draw.

btw, wuffy, i'm going to neg rep you every time i see that banner... get it AWAY from me!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Two Knights over Dragon.

Here are the reasons.

The Knight has the highest defensive capabilities in the game, and due to its statistics, it is the most well-rounded unit in the game; a single Knight could kill a single Dragon Tyrant, regardless of who attacked first (assuming the Tyrant had to move in if it went first, as is usually the case). This is because although it has 25% armor, the highest of any damage unit in the game, it also has the ability to do 22 damage (18 to an unstoned Dragon) EVERY OTHER TURN. If the Dragon moved in and attacked, it would have a wait of three; you could move in, attack, wait, attack and move out, and then repeat the process. Each time, the Dragon would have to move in again to reach you and have the same 3 recovery to your 0 after its turn ends. Only extreme blocking, putting the emphasis on EXTREME, could save a Dragon Tyrant without a Cleric (even to a Knight without a Cleric; add Clerics into the mix, and the Knight is even deadlier!).

The Dragon Tyrant, however, counts as two units on the field, and only gets one attack every four turns, assuming it moves. Unless you Stone it and have a Cleric and maybe a Furgon at the ready in any given moment, you will get two attacks TOPS before your Dragon is annihilated. With only 40% frontal blocking, 16% armor, and that same 3 turn wait recovery, I almost find it a liability to keep it alive without guarding it with, you guessed it, TWO KNIGHTS. If it dies, you lost two attacking slots, instead of the normal one when a Knight dies. You're more likely to get more attacks out of a Knight before it dies than a Dragon, and two... Well. Unless you're making front shots, I see much higher damage capability in two Knights, as well as defense, with 55% Stoned and 80% frontal blocking.

The only big question for me is, is the Knight truly the best melee unit, or are the Beast Rider or Assassin better by contrast?

Think about it... (NOTE: For those who don't want to think about it, just skip the following code box.)

Knight pros and cons:
+ Highest damage capabilities (22 > 19 > 18)
+ Most durable (50 > 38 > 35; 80 > 70 > 45)
+ Highest armor (25 > 15 > 12)
+ Easiest-to-control attack (1 selected square)
- Shortest attack range (3 movement + 1 attack)
- Cannot move around enemy units; makes blocking a constant factor

Beast Rider pros and cons:
+ Highest attack range (4 movement + 2 attack)
+ Can hit multiple "wall" units (2-panel attack pattern)
+ Can move around enemy units to attack
+ Well-rounded defense/HP stats; becomes very useful when armored
- Does not move for friendly units
- Minimal blocking (45 < 70 < 80)

Assassin pros and cons:
+ High blocking (70%); can act as a wall unit
+ Can move around units for an attack
+ Attack pattern allows for multiple units attacked
+ Assassin Bomb technique
- Very frail (35 HP and 12 armor, lowest of all melee units)
- Low attack damage

Or is it the Mud Golem?... I think I'll cut it off with those three for now.

[Bottle]

Two Knights over Dragon.

Here are the reasons.

The Knight has the highest defensive capabilities in the game, and due to its statistics, it is the most well-rounded unit in the game; a single Knight could kill a single Dragon Tyrant, regardless of who attacked first (assuming the Tyrant had to move in if it went first, as is usually the case). This is because although it has 25% armor, the highest of any damage unit in the game, it also has the ability to do 22 damage (18 to an unstoned Dragon) EVERY OTHER TURN. If the Dragon moved in and attacked, it would have a wait of three; you could move in, attack, wait, attack and move out, and then repeat the process. Each time, the Dragon would have to move in again to reach you and have the same 3 recovery to your 0 after its turn ends. Only extreme blocking, putting the emphasis on EXTREME, could save a Dragon Tyrant without a Cleric (even to a Knight without a Cleric; add Clerics into the mix, and the Knight is even deadlier!).

The Dragon Tyrant, however, counts as two units on the field, and only gets one attack every four turns, assuming it moves. Unless you Stone it and have a Cleric and maybe a Furgon at the ready in any given moment, you will get two attacks TOPS before your Dragon is annihilated. With only 40% frontal blocking, 16% armor, and that same 3 turn wait recovery, I almost find it a liability to keep it alive without guarding it with, you guessed it, TWO KNIGHTS. If it dies, you lost two attacking slots, instead of the normal one when a Knight dies. You're more likely to get more attacks out of a Knight before it dies than a Dragon, and two... Well. Unless you're making front shots, I see much higher damage capability in two Knights, as well as defense, with 55% Stoned and 80% frontal blocking.
The statistics are correct, but have you ever heard the phrase "Lies, damned lies and statistics"? Stats do not tell the whole story. How often do you get a perfect knight vs. dragon endgame? Answer: very rarely. If the game was a series of 1 vs. 1 battles, then yes, choose 2 knights over a dragon. But it's not. The game involves a combination of units. Stick a furgon and cleric in on both sides, and I'd take dragon over 2 knights anyday.

The important thing is how your units work together as a team. And in a team, the dragon is much, much more effective. Not least for the damage potential to scouts at a 7 space range. Knights simply can't do that.

You can't dissect this game in the way you just did. It's like trying to dissect chess by saying "I'd rather have a queen then 4 pawns any day." What if some of those 4 pawns were about to become queens themselves? You have to take into account game position.

In an open game, yes, knights are better. Not all games are open.

Play me gold to gold, turtle on opposite sides, and you can stone 2 knights, I'll stone a dragon, and we'll see who wins.

[OmegaShin]

Botty in an old style opp turt game u obviously need dragon... but there are new strats for different stoned units too that can't have a stoned dragon in..u may not like them but it's a question of opinions and playing style.

Also don't forget than in same sides a knights wall is surely much more effective than a dragon.

[Bottle]

Botty in an old style opp turt game u obviously need dragon... but there are new strats for different stoned units too that can't have a stoned dragon in..u may not like them but it's a question of opinions and playing style.

Also don't forget than in same sides a knights wall is surely much more effective than a dragon.
Opp turt games ALWAYS need a dragon over two knights. Same side turtles, it's difficult to tell. (A furgon can stop the knights, but only if the muddie has been killed first, and there's no ambusher or wisp around. If you're using a furgy same side, I'd take a dragon for the ability to teleport, attack, and retreat; if not, go for the knights. Especially if you're stoning wisp, mud and scouts.) Rushes, take 2 knights over a dragon, unless you can afford to include all 3.

I think that sums it up, don't you?

Oh, and Omega... only Glam can call me botty. :)

[wolf rayne {D}]

hm, i just use this akward turtle that combines a little bit of both....
http://img109.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img109&image=untitled2ie.png

[Bottle]

You're right. That IS awkward.

[wolf rayne {D}]

yeah, but it works really well.

[Bottle]

It's certainly the biggest waste of a LW that I've seen in a long time...

[wolf rayne {D}]

it was a knight, then a furgy, then a scout, but non of them seemed to work extremely well.....

[Bottle]

And the LW works better? :rolleyes:

[wolf rayne {D}]

against the people i play, yes.

[Bottle]

Ah, so you only play n00bs :)

[wolf rayne {D}]

lol, no, im on army.

[CRX687]

lol, no, im on army.

same thing :rolleyes:

[wolf rayne {D}]

yup.

[kyrios24]

They both suck.Dragon is better though. BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT GOOD! (Or likeable!)