Was it an accident?

[Jonspen]

What do you think? (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=556011&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)

I can honestly say I think it was an accident, how you can belive your own men would friendly fire on purpose. It's happend before, and horific accidents DO happen. But, it's rare for it to be on purpose.

[Megabyte]

anytime somebody can be quoted using the phrase "Everyone knows..."
it makes me think propaganda attempts.

[Jeffery]

I think that a car aproached a US checkpoint at a high rate of speed. The soldiers, after being exposed to increased car bombing attacks, fired upon the car.

If she thinks she is SO important as to have low level US soldiers want to try and kill her, then she needs an ego popping.

[Elektra]

I don't think it's an accident. the article says the U.S. government didnt want her to get released in the first place. if i were them, i would have shot her!

....

[nads]

Sounds to me like she has a distorted view of her importance in the world.

[Megabyte]

hey, when I'm 56 I plan on saying that major governments want me dead.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Jordan and Turkey have it out for me now.

[TheBlazedAce]

hey, when I'm 56 I plan on saying that major governments want me dead.

In fact, I'm pretty sure Jordan and Turkey have it out for me now.

Not if I say so first!

[Cephas]

*Looks at title*

*Looks at Jonspen*

*Looks at title*

*Looks at Jonspen*

*Looks at title*

*Looks at Jonspen*

Yep.

[Jeffery]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Cephas again.

[Ignition]

Oh but don't it suck.

[arendt]

The only conspiracy theory that holds any water at all is the conspiracy of incompetence. "Intelligence" agencies that can't gather information as well as the Guardian; trillions of upon trillions of dollars invested in spy satellites that can "read your license plate" but apparently can't locate arms manufacturing facilities. At the turn of the last century: the "impossibility" of war; the doctrine of the offensive in the time of machine guns and accurate artillery -followed a generation later by an even more horrific war...

I suggest reading catch 22 to gain an understanding of how the military works in this regard.

[CRX687]

"Sgrena, who writes for a communist newspaper that routinely opposes U.S. policy in Iraq"

ummm... i wonder if she's credible :rolleyes:

[Realist]

I don't see what there is to gain by killing her....

A martyr is much more effective and rarer than yet another European anti-Iraq journalist.

[Aro23r]

I suggest reading catch 22 to gain an understanding of how the military works in this regard.

I have. Do you know what the words "satire" and "parody" have in common with the word "reality"?

[arendt]

I have. Do you know what the words "satire" and "parody" have in common with the word "reality"?

In fact, I do. As did Hellar, who was, in fact a bomber pilot based in Italy during the second world war. If all you got from that book was satire and parody, you missed the point entirely.

Satire and parody can tell more truth than pictures and straight reporting can they not? Please see everything from “This Way to the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen” (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140186247/qid=1110177226/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4372271-2652806?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) to the poems of Wilfred Owen (http://www.hcu.ox.ac.uk/jtap/warpoems.htm).

[Jonspen]

*Looks at title*

*Looks at Jonspen*

*Looks at title*

*Looks at Jonspen*

*Looks at title*

*Looks at Jonspen*

Yep.

:p

Rep!

[Medemia]

I was listening to something about this last night on the radio. Conspiracy theories include the kidnappers provided the car and driver and charged the checkpoint as a suicide attempt to hurt US/Italian relations, she wanted to die herself to be the martyr and high up US officials ordered her death by telling a platoon to shoot her car.
Personally, I agree with another theory. It was a lack of communication. US soldiers see a car speeding at them with no signs of stopping. With recent suicide bombings, they feared for their lives so they had to stop the car. The driver/group in the car thought the road block was another psuedo-Iraqi roadblock looking to kidnap another hostage. She didn't want to get kidnapped again, so they were speeding past everything to get to the airport. Italian Secret Service (the 2 in the car) didn't communicate with US soldiers about what their mission was. Communication broke down and fear took it's place.

[S_K_O_F]

I don't think it's an accident. the article says the U.S. government didnt want her to get released in the first place. if i were them, i would have shot her!

....

where the article says this^ it is clever propaganda

the woman is quoted as saying that she was told by one of the negotiaters that the US didnt want her to be released...which probably came about in this way

US official-we do not negotiate with terrorists, no matter what the circumstances

Italian official-well we do, will you help us get our person back

US official-I repeat, we will have nothing to do with negotiating with murderers

Italian official-ok!

Italian official to other italian officials-the americans refuse to help us, we are on our own

italian negotiator to hostage-the americans are refusing to help us because they think that negotiating with kidnappers only helps in encouraging their actions. the americans refused to aid in your release

hostage to reporters later-the americans didnt want me to be released. they have no respect for human life

[arendt]

Read more here. (http://nytimes.com/2005/03/07/international/middleeast/07patrols.html?hp&ex=1110258000&en=37202de82290cf6f&ei=5094&partner=homepage) And look at those kids. This is winning hearts and minds?

LOGIN.............kmhybutt
PASSW............homer

[Jeffery]

I was listening to something about this last night on the radio. Conspiracy theories include the kidnappers provided the car and driver and charged the checkpoint as a suicide attempt to hurt US/Italian relations, she wanted to die herself to be the martyr and high up US officials ordered her death by telling a platoon to shoot her car.
Personally, I agree with another theory. It was a lack of communication. US soldiers see a car speeding at them with no signs of stopping. With recent suicide bombings, they feared for their lives so they had to stop the car. The driver/group in the car thought the road block was another psuedo-Iraqi roadblock looking to kidnap another hostage. She didn't want to get kidnapped again, so they were speeding past everything to get to the airport. Italian Secret Service (the 2 in the car) didn't communicate with US soldiers about what their mission was. Communication broke down and fear took it's place.
I already gave that theory.

And i think it is what happened. There have been several other cases where soldiers at checkpoints have fired at the wrong vehicles, in many of the same situations.

Face it, most of the kids (us soldiers) don;t know whats going on beyond they are told to stop vehicles, and shoot at anything perceived as a threat.

[S_K_O_F]

a buddy of mine just got back from iraq...he says that this kind of thing happens all of the time. this one is just famous because of that journalist.

my buddy was a 50 cal gunner on a transport truck gaurding the rear of convoys. when a US military convoy was on the road, no one was allowed to pass from either direction because of the possibility of bombers

The iraqi people knew this well, and would not try to pass a convoy or blow through a checkpoint...but everyonce in a while, someone would get bold.

according to my buddy, the soldiers are told to fire first at the engine block to disable the engine...but if, that doesn't work, the next step is to shoot the driver

the ny times article says that the car the journalist was in was running pitch black...meaning that the car lights were not on...which, according to my buddy, is a # 1 give away that it is a bomber...at this point, the soldiers are authorized to stop the car without warning

[nads]

There's a saying that has been repeated over and over. In fact, I repeated the saying myself when I was in the military. "I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six." Sounds like exactly what happened in this situation.

Although on the tao forums that saying loses something in translation because we have a twelve and a search 66. Does that saying really mean you'd rather have a clan tryout (tried) from Twelve rather than be let into the clan by search based on a friendship with him (carried). Ahhhhh throw that dirty pair of boxers in the conspiracy theorists clean laundry pile!

[Glamdring]

My brother-in-law's brother is a translator and has spent the last couple years in Iraq. Once a group of about 4 of his good friends went out for some reason (don't remember what), and asked him if he wanted to come, but he said no. On the way there the car flipped and they all died. They were driving far too fast, because that's how they keep from getting shot over there.

Bad things happen when there's that much fear and hatred in one place, that's all there is to it. I really do believe it was an accident, and it's not the first or only such accident.

Plus, even considering the misinterpretations in SKOF's post, I think it's WAY too big of a jump to go from "the Americans didn't want me released" to "the Americans wanted me dead because I got released."

[Aro23r]

The answer to that question, arendt, is the word "exaggeration."


The whole incident is a reporter with an overly large ego and soldiers trying to survive in a drastically desolate situation. No conspiracy, no hidden agendas, just stupid driving by the Italians. That's it.