Restore rantzu1's rating

[carlos22]

As most of you know that rantzu1 got wiped in Banff, he lost all of his stats that he earned and his drops too. Before rantzu got wiped, 12 was paying for his account, there were some mistakes in his pay pal account ( I don't know for sure) and caused rantzu's account to get degraded. Normally, the wipe occurs at the end of every month. I was planning to help re-upgrade rantzu's account before the wipe occured at the end of the month (This March), which was a problem. Bills did an early wipe, whichI never knew about, the wipe occured at the date of 8th. After the wipe occured, rantzu re-made his account, and I upgraded it.

None of this would have happened if 12's pay-pal account screwed up or Bills doing the wipe in the middle of the month, which is normally un-expected. I have pmed, sent tickets, and emailed Bills, asking if it was possible to restore rantzu's ratings. He never replied to any of them at all. A friend of mine, thefreezing did the same, his weren't answered too. Yesterday, I pmed Sergiy and asked him if it would be possible to restore his ratings. This is what Sergiy said:
Hi,
Sorry, but I think I can't help in this case. If I restore your stats then it will be unfair for others who lost everything and I can't restore stats for everybody...

The reason I made this thread was to see how people would feel if rantzu's stats got restored back to 1840. It would be really great to get some support from the community to restore his ratings. Thanks

Sincerely,
Carlos

[Tama Drummer]

Make him pay his own account. :)
And stats aren't all that important anyways.

Edit: sergiy's cool.

[thefreezing]

Make him pay his own account. :)
And stats aren't all that important anyways.

Edit: sergiy's cool.

I don't pay some of my fps gold accounts. :D

Stats are important to some people, I care about stats, NOT very much though.

Yes, Sergiy's cool! :cool2:

As for restoring rantzu's ratings. You have my support. I have no problem with it, since he hard-earned them and deserves to be in the #1 spot, even Frylock too.

[Ignition]

Yes, Sergiy's cool! :cool2:

so is you. ;)


You would be surprised in the number of people that DESERVE the #1 spot anywhere...

[CRX687]

Rantzu deserves #1, no doubts about it.

It was completely by mistake that his account got wiped anyway, twelve had credit card problems, and rantzu got greyed less than 2 days from the wipe.

You have my complete support.

[Jeffery]

On the other hand, Rantzu is more than capable of regaining his stats if he played more often here instead of that stupid server he's been in lately.

[Hellblazer]

It depends: what's the top stat rating on Banff now?

EDIT: I checked it. 1783!? That guy must think he's soooo special because rantzu got wiped. I vote restoration!

[FryLock]

I've got 1780 something, currently highest in the game now that rantz is gone. I've said before that while I like being on top, I also support putting rantzu back.

Having said that, I can see where sergiy's coming from. This is a nice thought, Carlos, but it's not likely to get anything changed.

-EDIT- Hellblazer - SHUT UP. That 1783 is me and I don't think I'm "sooo special." You little idiot.

[Wayfaerer]

On the other hand, Rantzu is more than capable of regaining his stats if he played more often here instead of that stupid server he's been in lately.

You just can't get your mind off that server eh :p

[Hellblazer]

Rep for that man!(he can admit that somebody's better than him. now that's rep material) :)
EDIT: for FryLock

[emerald slasher]

It depends: what's the top stat rating on Banff now?

EDIT: I checked it. 1783!? That guy must think he's soooo special because rantzu got wiped. I vote restoration!

*slaps....never insult frylock he kicks ur ass

[Godmic18]

I have an idea. Let rantzu back. Then let other people with account mistakes get their account back for a fee of $20. Good source of income from those stat lovers. :cool:

[kvon78]

-EDIT- Hellblazer - SHUT UP. That 1783 is me and I don't think I'm "sooo special." You little idiot.

i think ur "sooo special" :clapping2

[Hellblazer]

*slaps....never insult frylock he kicks ur ass
I didn't really insult him........well, not really.........ok, fine. Maybe I did insult him :dry:
Sorry, though :)

[Glamdring]

wow rantz... that sucks some majorness. Unfortunately, even though all of the community might be in his corner on this one, it doesn't look like it's going to happen. uh... sorry?

[Catra]

i think ur "sooo special" :clapping2

I think he's "sooo special" ( :wacko: ) too. LOL j/k with ya Fry!

And rantzu should have his hard earned top spot back! However, where is he? I haven't seen him in a long time! Must be my fault though...

[max2k106]

I think he's "sooo special" ( :wacko: ) too. LOL j/k with ya Fry!

And rantzu should have his hard earned top spot back! However, where is he? I haven't seen him in a long time! Must be my fault though...

No, I read somewhere in the local news that he was killed in an incident involving penguins and lamp shades :eek: You KNOW when those two come together, there's trouble to be made.

[Godmic18]

wow rantz... that sucks some majorness. Unfortunately, even though all of the community might be in his corner on this one, it doesn't look like it's going to happen. uh... sorry?

It will if Bills reads this. :cool:

I have an idea. Let rantzu back. Then let other people with account mistakes get their account back for a fee of $20. Good source of income from those stat lovers.

[meat.eater]

This is a dumb idea, in my opinion. Change is something that keeps things going.

I mean i like ranny like a very far away brother ive never met, but there is no need to go through all the trouble for stats.

[Hugh Junit]

It would be great if they saw fit to restore Rantzu's stats. I know how hard he worked to get that rating, and anyone who ever played him knows how good he is.
But I can't expect them to do it. I understand their argument about not being able to show favoritism. This is a special case, in my opinion, but I know that doesn't hold much weight.
Whatever happens, I still say that Rantzu is the best player I've ever seen.

[*The Nothing*]

Well, I dont really care if they get restored or not. I wont mind if it happens tho.

As far as that goes, I couldn't care less.

To Hellblazed: Shut the hell up nOObly. :D

[TheBlazedAce]

To Hellblazed: Shut the hell up nOObly. :D

Maybe if we pretend he doesn't exist he'll whither away forever?

A man can dream...

[Poop Slinger]

:stop:
While your at it could you change the settings back to win loses and draws.. I would like my 1003-0-25 back thanks.. Yeah.. all that time I invested in the begining just thrown out the window.

:bad:

Ya its sucks.. But I agree with sergy. How many accounts get deleted daily with good stats? Even the best stats.. if he restores rantzu1's.. even though he did nothing wrong.. you open the flood gates. Sucks donkey balls either way. And yes, rantzu1 is a great player. Very respectable.. yada yada. and he does deserve to have the stats back.

:help:

[Mithrandir]

I think it's a shame he got wiped and I wouldn't mind if an exception was made and they gave him his well-earned stats back. But to do it once would not be prudent, lots of people would demand the same and it would get messy.

[*The Nothing*]

I think we should just forget about it....and go on with life. :D

Reason I change my oppinion, is because its just not going to happen, and it's just another thing to worry about.

[Mithrandir]

Get on with life? But, you mean, this game isn't life??? :eek:

[*The Nothing*]

Oh sorry, it is life. Thanks for pointing out that typo!

*pos reps*

[thefreezing]

I believe this is possible, since *TN* was able to get his stats restored before.

[Mithrandir]

Hmmm. Good point.

[serg]

OK, I added a poll to this topic. If you decide to restore it then it will be restored. This poll will be closed in 10 days.

[TheBlazedAce]

Wow, Sergiy, that's the coolest thing you could have done. You're the first administrator for TAO I've gotten so much respect for in so little time. You really are dedicated to your work.

[Mithrandir]

I vote yes.

[theburning]

Wow, Sergiy, that's the coolest thing you could have done. You're the first administrator for TAO I've gotten so much respect for in so little time. You really are dedicated to your work.

Agreed.

I voted yes as well.
Just because there was only a day or two before the wipe and rantzu didn't have the chance that most others do to reupgrade his account.

[zig]

I voted Yes too.

[Zeratul]

I too voted yes. sergiy by far is the best admin for this and I feel we should all give him rep. for even just offering this second chance.

[thefreezing]

I LOVE YOU SERGIY!!!!!!!!!!!! :worthy: :kiss:

[FryLock]

I'm voting yes, too. I'm the player who has the most to "lose" by giving him his rating back, and if I'm voting yes on this...

[Godmic18]

I vote yes.

[Mithrandir]

Seems to me that they should just save time and give it back. I don't think 12 people are going to vote no.

[Zeratul]

Plus why would a person object.

[Godmic18]

There's always someone who will object. Any bets on the person who objects remaining anonymous?

[Mithrandir]

I'll bet they'll remain anonymous because I'm gonna neg anyone that votes no if he doesn't give a good reason. :)

[Zeratul]

the only thing that I could think why someone who object is that all gray's should be treated the same and deleted after the one month rule.

[MokoToko]

YES!

sergiy, thank you!

[Zeratul]

don't forget to show you apreciation by giving rep to him aswell. :D

[Bottle]

Sorry to break the mold, but I'm voting no.

Sergiy was right in the first place. This happens to a lot of people. I myself was wiped from Rev due to an account problem, and lost my 1200 rating, LW avatar and 3 frost golems. Did I get them back? No. Why not? Because I wasn't top of the rankings.

Should such a service be given to those at the top of the rankings? And if so, won't it just encourage people to cheat their way to the top even MORE?

How about a poll is made for every veteran who has this happen to them. Would you vote yes on every poll? (Assuming the case was equally as strong as Rantzu's.) Would you like the admins to be spending time on giving about 20 people their rating back every wipe, or doing something to help the community?

There's no doubt this poll will end up as a YES. But I have a feeling this may well open the floodgates. And if the admins refuse to do it for everyone else, that's going to be seen as unfair... especially if the only reason was "well, you weren't top of the rankings were you?" Ratings are a measure of how often you play and who you play (or played), not necessarily how good you are.

[Jeffery]

I went with Bottle on this one. People have had their wipes for bad reasons in the past. Rantzu was good, thats beyond debate. If he had stayed with it, he probably could have been back up to the top already.

Shit happens, people get deleted. How many more peole will now whine when they think they have been unfairly wiped, and start demanding to be restored. It sets a dangerous precident in ANY game when this starts happening.

[TheBlazedAce]

You are both correct. I'm still voting yes though becuase I believe the circumstances rantzu1 underwent deserves him a second chance, morally speaking.

[Twelve]

As most of you know that rantzu1 got wiped in Banff, he lost all of his stats that he earned and his drops too. Before rantzu got wiped, 12 was paying for his account, there were some mistakes in his pay pal account ( I don't know for sure) and caused rantzu's account to get degraded. Normally, the wipe occurs at the end of every month. I was planning to help re-upgrade rantzu's account before the wipe occured at the end of the month (This March), which was a problem. Bills did an early wipe, whichI never knew about, the wipe occured at the date of 8th. After the wipe occured, rantzu re-made his account, and I upgraded it.

None of this would have happened if 12's pay-pal account screwed up or Bills doing the wipe in the middle of the month, which is normally un-expected. I have pmed, sent tickets, and emailed Bills, asking if it was possible to restore rantzu's ratings. He never replied to any of them at all. A friend of mine, thefreezing did the same, his weren't answered too. Yesterday, I pmed Sergiy and asked him if it would be possible to restore his ratings. This is what Sergiy said:


The reason I made this thread was to see how people would feel if rantzu's stats got restored back to 1840. It would be really great to get some support from the community to restore his ratings. Thanks

Sincerely,
Carlos


I don't know HOW you know so much about my paypal mess...that's quite accurate of you...scarily so(were YOU hacking my paypal account?...haha) but you're right on the money(no pun intended).

I'm only surprised that Rantzu's stats aren't back yet. OF COURSE they should be brought back. This hasn't been done yet?

(And yes, I know that many golds have accounts that aren't payed for anymore...mine vanished INSTANTLY...haha)


12

[Jeffery]

You are both correct. I'm still voting yes though becuase I believe the circumstances rantzu1 underwent deserves him a second chance, morally speaking.
Like I said. He is capable of getting them back himself with a bit of effort.

It's not like the top 4 in army. Wi5th cheaters being banned, they would probably get caught tryin to get back up there.

[Twelve]

And yes, *TN*, let's not forget that I pmed the crap out of Burning and DR to get your stats AND units back, so I don't even want to hear any hypocrisy from you.

12

[Warcow]

I had to vote no as well. If the problem were isolated, and nothing else would be affected by the decision I would say yes in a heartbeat. Unfortunately I can see nothing but problems coming from this. On top of that, there have been so many players before rantzu to be unfairly wiped, and there wont be a poll for them.

[Twelve]

I had to vote no as well. If the problem were isolated, and nothing else would be affected by the decision I would say yes in a heartbeat. Unfortunately I can see nothing but problems coming from this. On top of that, there have been so many players before rantzu to be unfairly wiped, and there wont be a poll for them.


That's because "so many players" is not Rantzu.

Right along with Rantzu's account, I lost four other ones. When and if I do return, I don't plan on making a big deal about my accounts because I was never the highest ranked player of all time. And this is not someone who sat on his ranking as so many others did...he was an active player even with those numbers and kept the integrity of the game as so many other highrankers stop doing.

12

[Warcow]

That's because "so many players" is not Rantzu.

Right along with Rantzu's account, I lost four other ones. When and if I do return, I don't plan on making a big deal about my accounts because I was never the highest ranked player of all time. And this is not someone who sat on his ranking as so many others did...he was an active player even with those numbers and kept the integrity of the game as so many other highrankers stop doing.

12

The fact that all the others were not as high rated as Ranztu really doesn't matter. The thing is the time and effort put in, a mediocre player may have worked just as hard to earn his 1400 and fought an uphill battle the whole way, and his time is no less valuable. The fact that Rantzu happens to be a great deal better than most people doesn't change the effort factor, and I know he played alot, but that isn't exclusive to him. Rantzu can easily earn his stats back, he is an incredible player, and no one will argue that. For rantzu it takes roughly the same amount of time to get to 1700 as it does for most to get to 1300 or 1400.

[The Prophet]

Bottle is just ticked his stats were taking on Rev. So now everyone should be treated the same. :rolleyes:

[Twelve]

The fact that all the others were not as high rated as Ranztu really doesn't matter. The thing is the time and effort put in, a mediocre player may have worked just as hard to earn his 1400 and fought an uphill battle the whole way, and his time is no less valuable. The fact that Rantzu happens to be a great deal better than most people doesn't change the effort factor, and I know he played alot, but that isn't exclusive to him. Rantzu can easily earn his stats back, he is an incredible player, and no one will argue that. For rantzu it takes roughly the same amount of time to get to 1700 as it does for most to get to 1300 or 1400.

Stop being silly. If he can earn his stats back so easily anyways, and we're 100% positive that he can do so, then arguing against giving him his EARNED stats back makes no sense.

That's right, nobody made a poll for anyone else, but that's because they weren't worth making a poll for.

12

[Warcow]

Stop being silly. If he can earn his stats back so easily anyways, and we're 100% positive that he can do so, then arguing against giving him his EARNED stats back makes no sense.

That's right, nobody made a poll for anyone else, but that's because they weren't worth making a poll for.

12
Wow, how narrow minded of you.

Once again, there have been a lot of people lower rated who have put in just as much effort, and have never had their stats restored. It just isn't fair to the other people who have had to fight their way back up to restore rantzu's now.

EDIT* IRT Prophet.

Why shouldn't bottle be angry, if Rantzu's stats are restored, bottles should be too. Bottle won trophy's and tournys for his extra units, that is just as much effort as rantzu's. You can't justly give someone special treatment when so many others have been wronged without recompensation.

[Jeffery]

Stop being silly. If he can earn his stats back so easily anyways, and we're 100% positive that he can do so, then arguing against giving him his EARNED stats back makes no sense.

That's right, nobody made a poll for anyone else, but that's because they weren't worth making a poll for.

12
Then why hasn;t he?

[Twelve]

Narrow minded to say that the highest rated player ever should get his stats back? Especially since he didn't know what's going on and the conditions to him losing his stats wasn't his fault?

12

[Warcow]

Narrow minded to say that the highest rated player ever should get his stats back? Especially since he didn't know what's going on and the conditions to him losing his stats wasn't his fault?

12

No, narrow minded to say no one else is deserving of the same treatment. There have been lots of others who lost their stats when they didn't know what was going on, and it wasn't their fault.

This is not the first time something like this has happened, it is just the focus because his rating being gone is quite noticable.

[Twelve]

No, narrow minded to say no one else is deserving of the same treatment. There have been lots of others who lost their stats when they didn't know what was going on, and it wasn't their fault.

This is not the first time something like this has happened, it is just the focus because his rating being gone is quite noticable.

Yes, many people are not deserving of the same treatment because Rantzu's rating is not just a high rating...it is THE HIGHEST RATING EVER. Focus on that point for a second.

That rating was not earned through cheating, either, as he's quite often put it on the line to beat the best players of the game.

Rantzu is not just another player because he is deserving of respect...respect seems to be lost around here if isn't noticeable as little blocks beneath people's names.

Considering the fact that Rantzu's gold was payed for for almost a year, that too should be reason enough to maintain his account since it was consistently paid for for that much time.

The only argument remaining in this debate is whether or not Rantzu is deserving of getting his rating back out of respect for what he has done.

12

[Poop Slinger]

I also voted no. As I explained before why. HIGHEST RATING EVER.. or whatever else your selling its doesn't matter. If it happens it happens. Lost 4 1500 accounts.. You see me whining about it.. Suck.. Sucks major balls. But its life. Things suck. Grow and move on.

[Mithrandir]

For the record I'm not going to neg rep anyone that has voted no. I can respect the reasoning though I disagree.

And I think Bottle deserves to get his LW avatar back.

[Warcow]

Yes, many people are not deserving of the same treatment because Rantzu's rating is not just a high rating...it is THE HIGHEST RATING EVER. Focus on that point for a second.

That rating was not earned through cheating, either, as he's quite often put it on the line to beat the best players of the game.

Rantzu is not just another player because he is deserving of respect...respect seems to be lost around here if isn't noticeable as little blocks beneath people's names.

Considering the fact that Rantzu's gold was payed for for almost a year, that too should be reason enough to maintain his account since it was consistently paid for for that much time.

The only argument remaining in this debate is whether or not Rantzu is deserving of getting his rating back out of respect for what he has done.

12

The ratings themselves are also the highest they have ever been. Back in the days of LJ and Sir Vilhelm, a 1400 rating was unheard of, which meant it was just as hard to get to that. There are too many factors you have to analyze, you can't just go on rating alone. Back when I took my 1st place spot when I was still playing I was 150 points over any other person on GL. Had there been more high rated players, I may have attained rantzu's rating, who knows?. It is just impossible to tell through that kind of stuff. That is why I don't think his rating should be restored. As long as there are people out there that played hard for their stats and lost them without getting them restored, no other player should recieve different treatment in my eyes.

I've spoken my peace, this poll will pass anyway, I have nothing more to say.

[Twelve]

As long as there are people out there that played hard for their stats and lost them without getting them restored, no other player should recieve different treatment in my eyes.



Just because unfair things happenend in the past doesn't mean we have to keep things unfair. Quite often, it is a significant example that brings people's attentions to a particular problem that should be solved. This is such an example, having to do with the best player to play the game not just in the opinion of many, but on paper.

I mean, to blow your argument TOTALLY out of proportion(admittedly), that's like saying slavery should have been maintained unto this day because it happened to so many poor souls before people got smart enough to see that it was an unjust idea.


12

[Rogue_Wolf]

I voted "Yes".

I think every person who gets wiped unfairly, or through ways they have no control over, should get restored if they contact an Admin explaining their situation. This means that I think everyone who has had these troubles should be restored, but I'm not Bills, and his policy is to not restore any accounts unless its TacticsArena's fault, which is why all those players who got wiped never got anything back. In this case, its not, so Bills won't do anything about it(Good thing Sergiy's here). Sergiy's an Administrator, and if he lets the TAO players decide, then I for one am not gonna pass by an opportunity to voice my opinion, and try to get something changed.

-Rogue_Wolf

[Rescorlian]

Should one person be put to exception cause he wastes alot more time on this site, and has exceptional skill?

No.

Sorr carlos but as you know I gotta speak to my gut. Sergiy was right in the first place and should have stuck with his original opinion. I don't know rantzu1 but I do know that taking exception like this is wrong. every damn time I have a run in with a mod over something it's over equal treatment (duff will remember me having a problem with my two banners) so then becaus rantzu1 is number 1 dpes he get 2 or three banners? How about we just give him a bw avatar for being himself.

As much as some people would like to ee this they're doing it for the wrong reasons? Why do I think so? Cause in my opinion there is no right reason. Sure it wasn't his fault 12's account had a problem. IT IS his fault for relying on someone else. And besides I haven't seen him onln in banff once since this happened (come to think of it I've only ever actually seen him once) and that was like october.

Rules are there for a reason, if you want to inject fair treatemnt, then you can't be hypocritical about it.

I'm gonna say no, and vote no. Just because3 popular demand says something doesn't mean it should happen (does this mean if TAO holds a vote and everyone votes yes we can be profane on the forums, or each get an extra unit of our choice)? It's the principal of the matter.

Honestly, I will be outraged if he get's this re-done. Why? cause he is no different from the anyone else. Just had higher stats.

And yeah, if this does happen, bottle sure as hell better have his forst golems, lw avatar and rating back cause that will be downright un-fairtreatemnt (enter mods and admin being hypocritical)

Bah i can't stop typing, but I better.

No.

EDIT- I don't know if I said it clearly enough in many words so I will say it in few, this is BS!

2nd EDIT- rantzu1 rating on banff is currently 735, lower than newb

[dirka dirka]

special treatment is not cool, sorry, but thats how I feel

[Geeky_Bastard]

i voted yes because rant is awesome, hes one of the best i know. there is the problem that people will want the same thing done for them (and yes its unfair). arg idonno but hes awesome i think he got 1750 in 36 hours on leegends

[Mithrandir]

Again, if Rantzu1 gets his rating back (which he deserves) then I am going to demand Bottle get his stuff back. It's only fair.

[Warcow]

i voted yes because rant is awesome, hes one of the best i know. there is the problem that people will want the same thing done for them (and yes its unfair). arg idonno but hes awesome i think he got 1750 in 36 hours on leegends

Pretty sure that isn't possible.

Everyone needs to stop seeing rating, and analyze the situation as it deserves to be seen. However, if all lost accounts were to be restored, ones that we are aware of now, and any of them in the future, I would instantly change my response to yes.

[dirka dirka]

Exactly what Mithrandir said.

[Rescorlian]

And now the flood gates have opened. Hey, I want my rating transcribed over like mel, I had like 600 wins. and then they decided to change it?

Or how about the 1250 rating I had on rev (highest at one point) that was a record at the time, what's the differance. So what if I got whiped?

[Twelve]

Pretty sure that isn't possible.

Everyone needs to stop seeing rating, and analyze the situation as it deserves to be seen. However, if all lost accounts were to be restored, ones that we are aware of now, and any of them in the future, I would instantly change my response to yes.

Too late to change it, and I thought you had nothing more to say? :)

12

[Warcow]

Too late to change it, and I thought you had nothing more to say? :)

12

Aparently I was fooling myself since I obviously had more to say.

[Twelve]

And now the flood gates have opened. Hey, I want my rating transcribed over like mel, I had like 600 wins. and then they decided to change it?

Or how about the 1250 rating I had on rev (highest at one point) that was a record at the time, what's the differance. So what if I got whiped?

Nice try, but we're talking about a current situation that has been brought up and is obviously worthy of discussion.

We can't go back in time and solve every problem that happened, but this one has come up and it's indeed significant enough to question the policy. Just like many things that we call "unjust", we can't go back and undo everything but we CAN make sure things are done right from here onwards.

12

[Warcow]

Nice try, but we're talking about a current situation that has been brought up and is obviously worthy of discussion.

We can't go back in time and solve every problem that happened, but this one has come up and it's indeed significant enough to question the policy. Just like many things that we call "unjust", we can't go back and undo everything but we CAN make sure things are done right from here onwards.

12

Fine then, but give everyone we know of who has lost their things what they have lost back. Also, from here on out, let no one who has lost their stats go unrestored, because that would be a HUGE injustice.

[Twelve]

Fine then, but give everyone we know of who has lost their things what they have lost back. Also, from here on out, let no one who has lost their stats go unrestored, because that would be a HUGE injustice.

I totally agree with the latter. I can't agree with the former, however, because there will be endless people with true and untrue claims about what they have lost. There would be no way to figure out what is right or wrong.

Taking that argument out of proportion(again, I'm sorry), that's like trying to pay every native american in america money for whatever the "white man" took away from them in their history. It simply can't happen because it's unrealistic.

12

[TheBlazedAce]

Fine then, but give everyone we know of who has lost their things what they have lost back. Also, from here on out, let no one who has lost their stats go unrestored, because that would be a HUGE injustice.

As long as it holds that it's within reason. If you cancel your account and then you wait two months you can't get back your rating.

[Rescorlian]

Nice try, but we're talking about a current situation that has been brought up and is obviously worthy of discussion.

We can't go back in time and solve every problem that happened, but this one has come up and it's indeed significant enough to question the policy. Just like many things that we call "unjust", we can't go back and undo everything but we CAN make sure things are done right from here onwards.

12

That has been brought up, many of these situation have been brought up. This is just the first time an admin has seen fit to put it to a vote. And it was a dumb choice. Then what we can do is stop unjust from happening NOW!

This is unjust, there is no way this should happen ulness like warcow said EVERYONE's problems are solved. Like I said before, rantzu1 is no different. He just played alot more. If anyone plays this game enough and has the aptitude they can rise that high.

Do things right form onwards, so if this happens to anyone ANYONE els they will be restored. How about all the greys. the second the whipe happens the ones who post on the forum and had a high rank. Are motivated enough to take a s/s just before whipe get it back?

NO!

What's being argued here is not rantzu1, but the principal. Warcow said it, everyone needs to stop seeing rting and see the forst for the trees.

[Geeky_Bastard]

bottle got wiped?

i agree with warcow and 12 both, it will be unfair but rant is very good and had the highest stat ever (so im told, donno for sure cuz im somewhat new) :) it would take a very long time even for rant to get that back

[Twelve]

That has been brought up, many of these situation have been brought up. This is just the first time an admin has seen fit to put it to a vote. And it was a dumb choice. Then what we can do is stop unjust from happening NOW!

This is unjust, there is no way this should happen ulness like warcow said EVERYONE's problems are solved. Like I said before, rantzu1 is no different. He just played alot more. If anyone plays this game enough and has the aptitude they can rise that high.

Do things right form onwards, so if this happens to anyone ANYONE els they will be restored. How about all the greys. the second the whipe happens the ones who post on the forum and had a high rank. Are motivated enough to take a s/s just before whipe get it back?

NO!

What's being argued here is not rantzu1, but the principal. Warcow said it, everyone needs to stop seeing rting and see the forst for the trees.


Rescorlian, you're talking just like a true conservative. :)

Nevertheless, you're basically saying that an unjust, wrong policy should be maintained because it would be unjust to change what is unjust.

It's not making sense, bro. You know as well as I do that you can't go back and change all problems...even you spoke of the "floodgates".

And you get on the admins?

POOR ADMINS! They get criticized for doing nothing, and when the finally DO try and do something they get criticized!

That just confirms my thought that people like to complain just for the sake of complaining.



12

[FryLock]

I can see both points being made here...in my opinion, it boils down to this. Restoring rantzu's rating is "morally" right, but "technically" wrong.

On the pro-restore side, we have 12's opinion that since he is the arguably the best player (or at least the highest rated) and put in real time and effort, he should get his stats back.

Balancing that, we have Warcow (and others) arguing that this leads to a slippery slope. What about the top player on each server? If crx (on GL, for example) got wiped in a factually identical situation, should he get his stats back?

And what about Bottle, who got his drop and trohpy-laden (LW avatar) account wiped?

That seems fundamentally unjust.

My view is that IF the admins restore rantzu's rating, they should make it quite clear that this is a 1-time ONLY thing and that it will never happen again, not even if for some reason rantzu gets wiped again.

That's the only way the tide will be stemmed.

As a lawyer-to-be, I don't think he should be restored, but from a moral standpoint, I think he should. Therefore, I stand by my yes vote, but urge the administrators to think about their decision carefully. If they do restore him, please make it a narrowly-worded decision, so we don't get a thread like this each time a mistaken wipe happens.

[Mithrandir]

I think Bottle's loss is as serious if not more serious than Rantzu's. I think he deserves this exception as well.

[Rescorlian]

Rescorlian, you're talking just like a true conservative. :)

Nevertheless, you're basically saying that an unjust, wrong policy should be maintained because it would be unjust to change what is unjust.

It's not making sense, bro. You know as well as I do that you can't go back and change all problems...even you spoke of the "floodgates".

And you get on the admins?

POOR ADMINS! They get criticized for doing nothing, and when the finally DO try and do something they get criticized!

That just confirms my thought that people like to complain just for the sake of complaining.



12


I'll take that as a compliment :)

I'm saying it wasn't unjust in the first place. If you happened to let this kinda thing happen then suck it up and deal with it. The only thing here that will be unjust is the exceptualisation of rantzu1 from everyone else. Who cares if it's the highest? the rankings will go higher. and then what?

Don't turn this into an admin thing complaining or the sake fo cpmlaining. That's below you.

I will not be detered from this fact.

[Jeffery]

I will ask this once again:

Why has Rantzu not simply just started playing again and earned his stats back already. if he had bothered to stay around after the accident, he could have been back into the top of the rankins, and wouldn;t be that much longer before he would be back at the top.

Hell, it would be quicker than waiting 10 more days for the pol to close.

[TheBlazedAce]

I can see both points being made here...in my opinion, it boils down to this. Restoring rantzu's rating is "morally" right, but "technically" wrong.

On the pro-restore side, we have 12's opinion that since he is the arguably the best player (or at least the highest rated) and put in real time and effort, he should get his stats back.

Balancing that, we have Warcow (and others) arguing that this leads to a slippery slope. What about the top player on each server? If crx (on GL, for example) got wiped in a factually identical situation, should he get his stats back?

And what about Bottle, who got his drop and trohpy-laden (LW avatar) account wiped?

That seems fundamentally unjust.

My view is that IF the admins restore rantzu's rating, they should make it quite clear that this is a 1-time ONLY thing and that it will never happen again, not even if for some reason rantzu gets wiped again.

That's the only way the tide will be stemmed.

As a lawyer-to-be, I don't think he should be restored, but from a moral standpoint, I think he should. Therefore, I stand by my yes vote, but urge the administrators to think about their decision carefully. If they do restore him, please make it a narrowly-worded decision, so we don't get a thread like this each time a mistaken wipe happens.

Don't you notice this is more about the circumstances under which this occurred? His losing of stats was not in anyone's control since it (from what I understood) was actually Paypal's fault and the wipe was done out of the blue without warning. Add that to 12's point and I don't see what's left to argue here.

[Hellblazer]

Sweet, man.
Oh, FryLock, I'm sorry. I didn't really think before I posted that one.

[Warcow]

I can see both points being made here...in my opinion, it boils down to this. Restoring rantzu's rating is "morally" right, but "technically" wrong.

On the pro-restore side, we have 12's opinion that since he is the arguably the best player (or at least the highest rated) and put in real time and effort, he should get his stats back.

Balancing that, we have Warcow (and others) arguing that this leads to a slippery slope. What about the top player on each server? If crx (on GL, for example) got wiped in a factually identical situation, should he get his stats back?

And what about Bottle, who got his drop and trohpy-laden (LW avatar) account wiped?

That seems fundamentally unjust.

My view is that IF the admins restore rantzu's rating, they should make it quite clear that this is a 1-time ONLY thing and that it will never happen again, not even if for some reason rantzu gets wiped again.

That's the only way the tide will be stemmed.

As a lawyer-to-be, I don't think he should be restored, but from a moral standpoint, I think he should. Therefore, I stand by my yes vote, but urge the administrators to think about their decision carefully. If they do restore him, please make it a narrowly-worded decision, so we don't get a thread like this each time a mistaken wipe happens.

I agree with everything you said Fry except the narrow wording. There is no way Rantzu should be the only player to have this done. I'd love to see everyones ratings restored and units brought back, but if they aren't, and one player does get everything back, I can not agree with that.

[Twelve]

I'll take that as a compliment :)

I'm saying it wasn't unjust in the first place. If you happened to let this kinda thing happen then suck it up and deal with it. The only thing here that will be unjust is the exceptualisation of rantzu1 from everyone else. Who cares if it's the highest? the rankings will go higher. and then what?

Don't turn this into an admin thing complaining or the sake fo cpmlaining. That's below you.

I will not be detered from this fact.

I knew you would take it as a compliment...haha.

We both agree that it was unjust in the first place. But I don't understand, Res, how you can say that what is unjust should be maintained even after much light has been brought to its unjust nature!

Say what you will about Rantzu, but it's his story that has brought this into true intellectual light.

I'm repeating myself here, so I'll just make this my final word UNLESS someone actually comes up with a good point:

From this example forward stats should not be lost in this way.

That's really the only way to handle it, and this is coming from ME who also lost 4 accounts, 2 above 1700.

12

[Rescorlian]

Geese, morally? Does this mean that because it was morally wrong we should have some sort of punishment for 12? (cause after all unless I'm mistaken the entire screw up happened from his end)

Or how about morally after this seeing as rantzu1 got seperated from the rest he ramains that way for the rest of his playing days on TAO?

1 time thing? It should be a no time thing. We're not arguing some moral point like RL, we're arguing about game points, and the game points have a set of ruls (the "technical" part of it) and you know what makes a game work? rules. I've fought for them, against them. And it always boils down to the same. Everyone should be treated the same.

Rules should be followed unless they are proved to be ineffective. And I don't see anyone arguing that the rules are inneffective. I see them wanting to break them once.

[Warcow]

From this example forward stats should not be lost in this way.
12

Fine there, right there.

That is perfectly acceptable, provided everyone gets the same treatment. If we only correct rantzu's injustice, then we are doing the community an even larger injustice, by playing favorites. If his rating is restored, so must be everyone elses from here on out, or not at all.

[FryLock]

I think Bottle's loss is as serious if not more serious than Rantzu's. I think he deserves this exception as well.

This is exactly what I was talking about...

*sigh*

I don't like going back on my word...but in this case, I believe I must. An unjust situation occurs most often when there is fault on one side. In this case, I don't see any personal fault, just a computer or technical glitch. While that does indeed suck for rantzu...if giving him his stats back leads to this kind of thing, it's not worth it.

12, you're my friend and I'll always have your back, but in this case, my mind has changed. If the principle itself were unjust, I would agree with you. But the system is not unjust, it works as it is supposed to. It is INCREDIBLY unfortunate timing that it happened when it did, and to who it did. But this does not mean that the entire system is unjust. In fact, the system worked exactly as it was supposed to. You pay $5, you get gold for a month. You don't, you get wiped. That's not unjust. Unfortunate timing, yes, but it's fair. Technical mistakes happen. If someone had done this on purpose, somehow, then I would agree with you that it needs to be fixed. But this is not the case.

I still think morally, it's the right thing to do, but in light of what is happning and what could happen...I must go back on my vote. I don't like doing it anymore than anyone likes reading it, but I must now vote "no."

[Godmic18]

Wiw, I missed quite the arguement earlier. Both sides made great points, but I stand by my yes vote. Dirka state earlier that special treatment is not cool. I believe that under these circumstances, Rantzu deserves this special treatment. I'm not saying he should have a permanent gold account or anything, but he had no clue that his hard -earned account would vanish like it did. I also, agree with Frylock that this should be made clear that it is a ONE-TIME ONLY thing.

[Mithrandir]

Both sides have been pretty convincing. I'm not confident about where I stand anymore. I'm just gonna keep listening.

[Rescorlian]

I knew you would take it as a compliment...haha.

We both agree that it was unjust in the first place. But I don't understand, Res, how you can say that what is unjust should be maintained even after much light has been brought to its unjust nature!

Say what you will about Rantzu, but it's his story that has brought this into true intellectual light.

I'm repeating myself here, so I'll just make this my final word UNLESS someone actually comes up with a good point:

From this example forward stats should not be lost in this way.

That's really the only way to handle it, and this is coming from ME who also lost 4 accounts, 2 above 1700.

12


Lol, how'd ya know? :D

I can't argue with the fact that his story has brought this problem into an intelectual light, and a a conservative I very much agree with arguing over stuff like this in an intellectual way.

I hear what your saying, but stat loss happens.

And it did happen. I ask this, how long did he remain grey after before the wipe? how long was the window? and he never caught on during this (porbably due to inactivity) SO it was HIS fault. he relied on someone else's account, he didn't pay enough atention to ctch that he was grey again and then find a way to rectify it. And where was the thread HE launched to get his stats back?

[Rogue_Wolf]

How about all the greys. the second the whipe happens the ones who post on the forum and had a high rank. Are motivated enough to take a s/s just before whipe get it back?

There's a difference, Rantzu was gold.

I agree with Twelve on a few things. I don't think Rantzu should get his stats back since he was ranked highest. I think that he should get them back since what happened was coincidental. He lives in a foreign country, and needs people to pay for him. Something messes up, thats out of his control, and he's gonna get penalized. Its unfair, and it was unfair to the other players.

We can't make a "It happened to other players, so we can't make an exception" reason for not letting him get his stats/drops back. Why? Because sergiy isn't Bills. Bills decided on all the other players, not sergiy. Since sergiy is the one in charge right now, its his decision, and he's allowing the TAO players to state the way they think it should be handled. Not the way Rantzu should be treated, but the way the Administration handles these situtations. Its unfair to the others who have happened to them before, but it will be unfair for those to come. Why not change this now?

-Rogue_Wolf

[Twelve]

12, you're my friend and I'll always have your back, but in this case, my mind has changed.



Fool! Don't you know that now you force me to use my powers against you?

Alright, you brought up a new point worthy of comment.

Fact is, the ADMIN declared that this issue was worthy of a vote, implying that the policy is INDEED unjust, which is why we're voting.

12

[Geeky_Bastard]

im gonna leave lol, u guys are way over my head... i feel like an ant :D

[FryLock]

Come on, man. You're making a huge leap. Sergiy brought up the poll because he's responding to the community, not necessarily because he thinks the ENTIRE SYSTEM is unjust. Show me where he says that the system is unjust and I'll buy you dinner.

[Twelve]

Come on, man. You're making a huge leap. Sergiy brought up the poll because he's responding to the community, not necessarily because he thinks the ENTIRE SYSTEM is unjust. Show me where he says that the system is unjust and I'll buy you dinner.

He didn't say that the entire system was unjust, but by opening up a poll he did indeed IMPLY(as I wrote) that this particular policy is not fair.

So where do we meet for dinner? Actually, I like French Toast so could we do breakfast?

12

[Jeffery]

No, the Admin called a vote due to pressure from members. It has nothing to do with whether or not it is just/unjust.

Also, where is rantzu in all of this? Everyone is arguing for/against him, and he doesn't even make a guest appearance? I like the point that someone brought up as to why he never madre this thread asking for it all to be restored.

I also ask once again, why hasn;t he simply earned the points back again? In the time that has gone by, and the time until this poll is over, he could have done himself what people are demanding happen.

If the game is about the game and gameplay, and not just about the magic number, then why all the whining? Enjoy a few weeks of kicking some ass, and give up all the arguing.

[Rescorlian]

* stands up, get's a smoke, thinks for a second*

You know there is one argument here that hasn't been adressed that was the ultimate argument the amin used when the rating system was changed. And jeffery nailed it.

Thos who had a high ranking before will have no problem RE-earning it. why isn't HE busy re-earning it? I'm failry sure carloss stated he re-golded him. whwere's rantzu1's effort. WHy isn't he here fighting for himself?

How can you wage something like this when the person it's over isn't even willing to fight for themselevs or try to re-earn there position. it might be idfferent if his rating onbanff was already up in the 100's, but it's 735.

Rogue_wolf, I know he was gold, I was arguing principal (forest for the trees) you know what, if you want to look at it like who's decision it was, well bills made the decision to wipe early, doesn't that make it his call to have done so early and thus killed rantzu1's stats?

Frylock put it better than I did with how the system works. It's not unjust. Thus it us just. right?

So to do the opposite would be unjust *pats nay sayers on head good for you*

*just refershed topic review while making post*

Once again jeffery nails it. We have the power to pressure the admin, but does that make it right?

EDIT- We're arguing about a game, and games have rules

[FryLock]

Again 12, I disagree. You can IMPLY all you want, but that doesn't make it so. I can take IMPLY from your silence on the matter that you don't think Bottle should get his stuff back. Or I could IMPLY that you do.

Sergiy was responding to the seeming will of the community. He's a good admin and wants to listen. Until he says that he feels that the SYSTEM, not this isolated incident, is unjust, you can't put your words in his mouth.

[Bottle]

OK, let's sum this one up and try to bring it to a close. Both sides have made their arguments, both of them are very valid, and now it's up to Sergiy to decide.

In the "Yes" camp, we have the points that:
1) Rantzu is an exceptional case (being the highest ranked FPS player);
2) It was not his fault he got wiped;
3) He is a role-model of a good TAO player (got to the top without cheating) and deserves his 1800 rating very much;
4) Leaving him with 750 is unrepresentative of his skill, which is what the rating system is supposed to be about (he could easily remove 36 points from a top 10 player when it should rightfully be only 4 or 5).

In the "No" camp:
1) Other players, who have put in equal effort, have had the same thing happen with no admin help;
2) It would open a floodgate of requests that would waste admin time;
3) He's not putting in any sort of effort to regaion his rating, showing how much it means to him;
4) If someone else is paying for your account, this is a risk you have to accept. Pay for your own account and maintain it if you want to be sure of keeping your rating.

One a final note; does rantzu even play on Banff any more? Not really. He's afraid that a unlucky set of blocks could take 16 points, which at this point would take about 6 hours to recover (as most match wins give him 1 point). Would it not be more fun for him to have a stat reset? Has anyone even asked his opinion on this matter? I personally would enjoy a reset to say 1000, since it would give me a chance to prove myself again, if it were not unfair on all the players I beat and caused to lose an inordinate amount of rating for my skill level...

[Godmic18]

Also, where is rantzu in all of this? Everyone is arguing for/against him, and he doesn't even make a guest appearance? I like the point that someone brought up as to why he never madre this thread asking for it all to be restored.

Because this thread has been here for a little over a day and a half and rantzu isn't addicted to forums like some of us are. ::cough:: jeff ::cough::

[finalfantasyt]

OK, I added a poll to this topic. If you decide to restore it then it will be restored. This poll will be closed in 10 days.
^^more proof why sergiy's awesome. :)

and i'm all for rantzu1's rating to be restored, because 1840 is insanely good, and most people agree that he's the best player. i need to find him and ask for a game... :)

[Rescorlian]

OK, let's sum this one up and try to bring it to a close. Both sides have made their arguments, both of them are very valid, and now it's up to Sergiy to decide.

In the "Yes" camp, we have the points that:
1) Rantzu is an exceptional case (being the highest ranked FPS player);
2) It was not his fault he got wiped;
3) He is a role-model of a good TAO player (got to the top without cheating) and deserves his 1800 rating very much;
4) Leaving him with 750 is unrepresentative of his skill, which is what the rating system is supposed to be about (he could easily remove 36 points from a top 10 player when it should rightfully be only 4 or 5).

In the "No" camp:
1) Other players, who have put in equal effort, have had the same thing happen with no admin help;
2) It would open a floodgate of requests that would waste admin time;
3) He's not putting in any sort of effort to regaion his rating, showing how much it means to him;
4) If someone else is paying for your account, this is a risk you have to accept. Pay for your own account and maintain it if you want to be sure of keeping your rating.

One a final note; does rantzu even play on Banff any more? Not really. He's afraid that a unlucky set of blocks could take 16 points, which at this point would take about 6 hours to recover (as most match wins give him 1 point). Would it not be more fun for him to have a stat reset? Has anyone even asked his opinion on this matter? I personally would enjoy a reset to say 1000, since it would give me a chance to prove myself again, if it were not unfair on all the players I beat and caused to lose an inordinate amount of rating for my skill level...


Not arguing your opinion, just the sum of the sides. You make the no side look to be alot weaker than it is.

This should not be a popularity contest.

It should be about rules.

[Twelve]

No, the Admin called a vote due to pressure from members. It has nothing to do with whether or not it is just/unjust.

Also, where is rantzu in all of this? Everyone is arguing for/against him, and he doesn't even make a guest appearance? I like the point that someone brought up as to why he never madre this thread asking for it all to be restored.

I also ask once again, why hasn;t he simply earned the points back again? In the time that has gone by, and the time until this poll is over, he could have done himself what people are demanding happen.

If the game is about the game and gameplay, and not just about the magic number, then why all the whining? Enjoy a few weeks of kicking some ass, and give up all the arguing.


Jeff--Standing up for someone who cannot speak for themselves is an honorable thing to do. And Rantzu cannot speak for himself due to his English. Unlike Bottle, who self admits that he is cocky enough to make a poll asking if he's the greatest player in the world or not, Rantzu is not one to make a poll about himself. These facts in no way should be used against him.

Res--Just because Rantzu is currently playing his behind off in Legends doesn't mean he's not playing. He can't help it if he feels helpless about the matter.

Fry--The fact that there IS a poll started by the admin does indeed make for a very strong implication that he felt the need for something, and yes, until he does say something we can only go with what we have: a poll.

12

[Sean629]

I voted yes!
Because I feel hard work and not cheating should pay off. To get an 1800 rating is unheard of until he did it. To all those who are complaining about not having gotten yours back, well to bad, it is in the past, maybe it is time for a change, maybe someone who payed for a year to be gold on this site, and is now again paying should get their stats back. Some people may not care about stats but that is your opinion, there are some people who are competitive and stast add fun to the game. I have always seen stats as a measure to how good a player is, and im sorry but if rantzu is rated as a 735 I feel the whole rating system has let us down. I say please make a change, and please restore his stats. He is very well deserving of them.


Btw, if rantzu was back and playing, I wouldn't play him if he was that low, who wants to lose 30 points, uhhh nobody

[Twelve]

I voted yes!
Because I feel hard work and not cheating should pay off. To get an 1800 rating is unheard of until he did it. To all those who are complaining about not having gotten yours back, well to bad, it is in the past, maybe it is time for a change, maybe someone who payed for a year to be gold on this site, and is now again paying should get their stats back. Some people may not care about stats but that is your opinion, there are some people who are competitive and stast add fun to the game. I have always seen stats as a measure to how good a player is, and im sorry but if rantzu is rated as a 735 I feel the whole rating system has let us down. I say please make a change, and please restore his stats. He is very well deserving of them.

Beautiful. From beginning to end.

12

[Bottle]

Not arguing your opinion, just the sum of the sides. You make the no side look to be alot weaker than it is.
I know, because I don't want to make the summing-up biased in favour of my opinion. I'm trying to present both sides' main points.

Edit: As for sean, I too have been paying for a year (indeed, for longer than rantzu), and I received no preferential treatment. And yes, I asked Bills for it. It's just that now we have an admin dedicated to customer service (hurrah), whereas when I got wiped we didn't. Is that fair on me? Is it fair on all the other people who got wiped? Who have also been paying for TAO for much longer? Indeed, with their own hard-earned money, unlike rantzu (who relied on 12)?

[FryLock]

Fry--The fact that there IS a poll started by the admin does indeed make for a very strong implication that he felt the need for something, and yes, until he does say something we can only go with what we have: a poll.


So don't say that the admin clearly feels that the entire system is unjust. Don't put your words in other people's mouths. If you notice, I've tried to avoid speculating on what Sergiy himself thinks of the wipe and paypal system. Because I don't know. And I'm not about to import my views to him, just because I think he might agree.

We're talking about changing the entire game system here. This is bigger than rantzu. People need to realize this. Otherwise, there will be 3 or 4 of these threads per wipe, if not more.

[Sean629]

Why thankyou twelve

[Rescorlian]

*sigh* I hate popularity contests. And this is all this seems to be, if it wasn't then the matter would have just been answered with rules.

What happens when a new highest rank has been achieved. (like if fry get's to 2000) and then forgets to recsubscribe and loses it, will he get his stats back?

[Jeffery]

Fine, If he is unable or unwilling to speak for hiumself, i can accept that.

But the fact that he sat idly on banff and did nothing to infporve the situation himself speaks more words than are ever needed.

He is a great player, and could have earned the points back by the time the poll was ever called and finished. Sure, he is on Legends playing now, and thats fine if thats what he wants to do. If he wanted to get the highest ranking here back, he should have continued playing here and simply stomped his way to the lead again.

How is he powerless when we all agree he has the ability to do so?

[FryLock]

What happens when a new highest rank has been achieved. (like if fry get's to 2000) and then forgets to recsubscribe and loses it, will he get his stats back?

*blush* I wish.

[Twelve]

We're talking about changing the entire game system here.

First of all, I'm not putting words into anybody's mouth because it is a cleary documented fact that our admin felt the need for a poll. This is a fact.

Second of all, let's not blow this out of proportion. This isn't about changing and entire game system. This is about looking at a situation where a person unjustly lost his stats in a way that was totally not his fault at all.

I say that this should never happen again beginning now and into the future.

DANG it! I'm repeating myself!

12

[Sean629]

Jeffery how could you say he would have them back by now, would you play him if he is 735, and even if you would there are people who care about stats who would not play him. Nobody wants to lose 30 points. He is that good to where it is garaunteed that you would lose 30 points to him.

[Bottle]

Right, guys, let's stop the argument now, both sides have presented their argument. The poll is decisive, but that's not a great guide (because it's just a popularity contest, and indeed one person who voted yes after reading the arguments is now staunchly voting no). Let Sergiy read the thread before it becomes a mess, and let him decide.

[Jeffery]

I say that this should never happen again beginning now and into the future.
12


Fine, then it should not happen NOW either.

[Godmic18]

Fine, If he is unable or unwilling to speak for hiumself, i can accept that.

But the fact that he sat idly on banff and did nothing to infporve the situation himself speaks more words than are ever needed.

He is a great player, and could have earned the points back by the time the poll was ever called and finished. Sure, he is on Legends playing now, and thats fine if thats what he wants to do. If he wanted to get the highest ranking here back, he should have continued playing here and simply stomped his way to the lead again.

How is he powerless when we all agree he has the ability to do so?

You're talking about him dedicating months of his time to get back to his number 1 spot back? That's rediculous for a game that you pay to play. Unfortunately, with the combo of Twelve's payment troubles and Bills bad timing, he got dealt a seriously bad hand of cards and I'm sure if he's gotten wind of it and told someone, they would have paid for him as carlos was willing to do.

[Jeffery]

Jeffery how could you say he would have them back by now, would you play him if he is 735, and even if you would there are people who care about stats who would not play him. Nobody wants to lose 30 points. He is that good to where it is garaunteed that you would lose 30 points to him.
I wouldn;t lose anything to him. ;)

[Twelve]

Fine, If he is unable or unwilling to speak for hiumself, i can accept that.

But the fact that he sat idly on banff and did nothing to infporve the situation himself speaks more words than are ever needed.



How do you know this? I happen to know that he's extremely pissed about losing his stats. Do you have any idea how hard it is to explain emotion, especially anger, in a foreign language? Trust me, I know how it is as I lived in a German speaking country for four years. A similar situation happened to me there and people put blame on me for not defending myself.

Surely, I was wrong(they said)...but the fact was, I couldn't defend myself in the foreign tongue!

12

[Jeffery]

You're talking about him dedicating months of his time to get back to his number 1 spot back? That's rediculous for a game that you pay to play. Unfortunately, with the combo of Twelve's payment troubles and Bills bad timing, he got dealt a seriously bad hand of cards and I'm sure if he's gotten wind of it and told someone, they would have paid for him as carlos was willing to do.
if he enjoys the game, then the months should be very happy ones.

Everyone is focusing on the rating here. And yet, I can look through the forums and find 99% of you claiming "points don;t matter" and that it is the game that matters. So for some reason a high number of points counts for more than a lower number all of a sudden????

[Rescorlian]

I agree with bottle here, both sides have made all the points and now the points are just being argued again. I will make this my last post (so thus it will be closing)

Rantzu1 should not get his stats back becaus he is only exceptional in skill. And if so would have no problem earning them back. And wouyldn't that be what he wanted? Is the stats to be given back just to that banff can have the pride of having the highest ever rating? What is the real point?

The rules in this matter are straight forward. And they are not being argued, just that an exception should be made. If this is so, why are the rules their in the first palce?

If this happens there had be several other htings that happen in concidance with it. Like bottles unites, avatar and ranking replaced. If you want to argue and then back up a principal you must be willing to do it all the way. And that's why the rules are there.

Rules are Rules.

Like I said, this will be my last post so the matter doesn't get anymore muddled.

EDIT- all I can hope is people read this ENTIRE thread before voting. I doubt highly they will, as they never do.

[Thargor]

I am torn on this one. I know what it is to have your hard work lost due to something beyond your control. It bites. But from where I see it, I should think that someone of Rantzu1's abilities, he would relish the chance to do it over again, expecially now that conditions are different from when he did it first. I would appreciate hearing from rantzu himself on this, that he actually WANTs to continue playing on Banff, that he was actively playing on Banff when it happened?

As far as system issues, here is my suggestion, how about when a gold account is dropped, instead of being wiped it gets locked? The number of gold accounts out there is not so huge that it would be a server space issue. On top of that, locked accounts would have incremental rating drop, so that the ranking boards are not buried in locked accounts, but if someone came back soon, they would be able to pick it up with little rating lost.

[Bottle]

OK, GUYS, STOP!

You're making a mess of the thread. I wouldn't be surprised if Sergiy came back tomorrow, saw "Last page: 25", and just decided not to bother.

I mean, come on. It's only rating. What does it mean? Especially if he's not even playing here any more. (Yeah, that's dedication for you; going to play another website instead. Notice I've NEVER played on Legends, I'm proud of it, I'm committed to FPS. I've got 0 preferential treatment.)

We're all just repeating overselves, which if this was a debate would be the "everyone shouting at once" stage. Please, Mr. Chairman, put a stop to all this...

[Jeffery]

How do you know this? I happen to know that he's extremely pissed about losing his stats. Do you have any idea how hard it is to explain emotion, especially anger, in a foreign language? Trust me, I know how it is as I lived in a German speaking country for four years. A similar situation happened to me there and people put blame on me for not defending myself.

Surely, I was wrong(they said)...but the fact was, I couldn't defend myself in the foreign tongue!

12
Defend nothing. Then why has he not been playing and begun earning the points back? Because of his anger at what happened? He has the ability to correct it himself. I am not saying what happened was fair or just. i am just saying that he of all people is able to correct it himself, BY SIMPLY PLAYING THE DAMN GAME.

How many other "injustices" in the world are fixable so easily. (I am saying the way, not the process)

[Godmic18]

if he enjoys the game, then the months should be very happy ones.

Everyone is focusing on the rating here. And yet, I can look through the forums and find 99% of you claiming "points don;t matter" and that it is the game that matters. So for some reason a high number of points counts for more than a lower number all of a sudden????

Good point. If he comes back on a new account, I don't want to hear monkus or anyone else whining about their stat dropping like a rock. Assuming anyone plays him...

[Sean629]

People don't say he doesn't get on, because he does. I am an a person who stays up all night, and I saw him quite a few times last week still talking in banff, and browsing the forums. He does live in a remote timezone guys, give him a break if he hasn't responded to this thread yet.

[Wayfaerer]

if he enjoys the game, then the months should be very happy ones.

Everyone is focusing on the rating here. And yet, I can look through the forums and find 99% of you claiming "points don;t matter" and that it is the game that matters. So for some reason a high number of points counts for more than a lower number all of a sudden????

The human ToS is right!

[Sean629]

if he enjoys the game, then the months should be very happy ones.

Everyone is focusing on the rating here. And yet, I can look through the forums and find 99% of you claiming "points don;t matter" and that it is the game that matters. So for some reason a high number of points counts for more than a lower number all of a sudden????


Hey Jeffery I have always cared about stats, sorry if I sound competitive guys but it is my nature

[Bottle]

That "remote timezone" is the same one (within an hour) of the one I'm posting from. :rolleyes:

Why am I still posting here? :confused:

[Twelve]

i am just saying that he of all people is able to correct it himself, BY SIMPLY PLAYING THE DAMN GAME.



That, however, is not an option on this poll and is therefore moot.

12

[Rescorlian]

*has stopped arguing* let it go guys. Your just arguing for the sake of it, bottle is right, we need to keep this clear and concise. The only thing that should be entered is new arguments. And there is none.

[Bottle]

bottle is right
Talk about stating the obvious. :rolleyes: :)

[Jeffery]

That, however, is not an option on this poll and is therefore moot.

12
it is an option. If he had bothered to do it, then the poll would be moot. Instead he went to Legends and played there, and dropped banff. If he had started playing Banff again right away, he would be well on his way, and none of this would even be being discussed.

[Twelve]

That was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fun!

Edit: Oh, Jeffery is still debating. You're making a lot of "if's" and hypothetical arguments, but bottom line is that you're arguing about abstract topics outside of the poll. I can't attack your points and neither can you honestly defend them since they're conjecture.

12

[Sean629]

Rantzu1 should not get his stats back becaus he is only exceptional in skill. And if so would have no problem earning them back. And wouyldn't that be what he wanted? Is the stats to be given back just to that banff can have the pride of having the highest ever rating? What is the real point?



EDIT- all I can hope is people read this ENTIRE thread before voting. I doubt highly they will, as they never do.


Hey resc, people in nature tend to be kind, and when he has this much support, I say we make the exception and do a kind thing for another person, instead of caring what it will do to the game, Rantzu cared about this game and stats, and it affects him as a person, to you and all the others saying no,How does this affect you, sorry guys but I am gonna go with being kind to the person here.

[Bottle]

it is an option. If he had bothered to do it, then the poll would be moot. Instead he went to Legends and played there, and dropped banff. If he had started playing Banff again right away, he would be well on his way, and none of this would even be being discussed.
Jeff, are you listening to what everyone else is saying?

DROP IT. NOW.

All you're doing is extending the thread with unnecessary posts. The discussion has happened, it has been summed up, and now we await the outcome. Surely you, as a debator, can understand that.

[Jeffery]

Bottle, if you wish to drop out do so. There are still points being discussed. When you become supreme overlord of crap, then i might consider following your directive.

[Twelve]

lol...

alright, alright...

12

[Jeffery]

That was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO fun!

Edit: Oh, Jeffery is still debating. You're making a lot of "if's" and hypothetical arguments, but bottom line is that you're arguing about abstract topics outside of the poll. I can't attack your points and neither can you honestly defend them since they're conjecture.

12
In other words, you have no defense for the fact that he could have avoided this himself, AND STILL CAN. (meaning the need for the poll)

I'd also like to point out this is a 10 day poll, not a 5-minute-and-it-is-set-in-stone poll.

[Godmic18]

He can still avoid something that already happened? :confused:

[Twelve]

No defense, since your argument is totally moot because it is based on pure abstract conjecture. I can't defend against an argument that holds no water.


12

[Jeffery]

No defense, since your argument is totally moot because it is based on pure abstract conjecture. I can't defend against an argument that holds no water.


12
So you think he is unable to play again? That is the only way him playing his way back to the top is not able to be an option.

[Godmic18]

It's an option, but not what we're voting on.

[Bottle]

Bottle, if you wish to drop out do so. There are still points being discussed. When you become supreme overlord of crap, then i might consider following your directive.
The points being discussed are irrelevant.

At least soon Jeff will be the only one posting here, and will run out of steam after say a quadruple post...

Jeff, your only problem is that you don't know when to quit.

[Jeffery]

It's an option, but not what we're voting on.
And wouldn;t be if he had just stood up for himself by playing, instead of running off to legends.

[Twelve]

So you think he is unable to play again? That is the only way him playing his way back to the top is not able to be an option.

I simply mean that it's not for us to decide what's going on in his brain. The only thing I know, and even THIS being from hearsay(Omegashin), is that he's pissed about losing his stats.

Outside of that, we have no right to judge the brain of someone that we(well, at least you) know so little about.

To do so would sully the basic, intellectual principles that have taken place so far in this debate.

12

[Bottle]

And wouldn;t be if he had just stood up for himself by playing, instead of running off to legends.
Take a look at this post, Jeff.

Take a good look.

Have you said this already?

Yes.

Does it need saying again?

No.

Should you have posted it?

No.

[Sean629]

uhhh... Jeffery I don't know bout everyone else but I think if he got his stats back who would play more. O btw atleast he plays, and doesn't consider himself retired like some people in the top 20. I think they should be wiped for "retiring".

[Godmic18]

And wouldn;t be if he had just stood up for himself by playing, instead of running off to legends.

Personally, I quit banff for a good week or two after my account got wiped. Now I just think it's fun to mess with the high ranking players there when they assume I'm noob. He just needs some time to cool off.

[Jeffery]

I simply mean that it's not for us to decide what's going on in his brain. The only thing I know, and even THIS being from hearsay(Omegashin), is that he's pissed about losing his stats.

Outside of that, we have no right to judge the brain of someone that we(well, at least you) know so little about.

To do so would sully the basic, intellectual principles that have taken place so far in this debate.

12
So instead people will whine about how unjust it was, and just demand it be fixed, ignoring the fact he could just fix it himself.

[Twelve]

uhhh... Jeffery I don't know bout everyone else but I think if he got his stats back who would play more. O btw atleast he plays, and doesn't consider himself retired like some people in the top 20. I think they should be wiped for "retiring".

Word. My man Sean is on FIRE.

12

[Warcow]

Personally, I quit banff for a good week or two after my account got wiped. Now I just think it's fun to mess with the high ranking players there when they assume I'm noob. He just needs some time to cool off.

Pfff, i've proved you noob time and time again :p.

[Jeffery]

Take a look at this post, Jeff.

Take a good look.

Have you said this already?

Yes.

Does it need saying again?

No.

Should you have posted it?

No.
And how many times have you demanded the discussion end?

This is an open forum, in a poll meant to run 10 days. that means for 10 days it is up for discussion, and yes, discussion often involves both sides repeating what has been said to each other. If you want it to stop, simply go away. Then you will not need to see it anymore.

This discussion IS NOT closed just because one or two people say so.

[Twelve]

So instead people will whine about how unjust it was, and just demand it be fixed, ignoring the fact he could just fix it himself.


(Probably a double post)

...yes, and if this problem is so easily fixable himself, we might as well just save him time and give him his stats back, since he did indeed put in the time and energy before. MEANWHILE, we can make sure that from this point on such a thing doesn't happen again.

12

[Warcow]

uhhh... Jeffery I don't know bout everyone else but I think if he got his stats back who would play more. O btw atleast he plays, and doesn't consider himself retired like some people in the top 20. I think they should be wiped for "retiring".
That really isn't fair.

Some of us in the top 20 have been playing for a year and a half, if we want to take some time off, we have every right.

[Godmic18]

Pfff, i've proved you noob time and time again :p.

Yep, but only with your dual scouts. On my home server, I recall you had some issues bombing me. :cool:

[Bottle]

So instead people will whine about how unjust it was, and just demand it be fixed, ignoring the fact he could just fix it himself.
Again, you've posted this argument already. About 5 times.

As for you 12... don't support someone unless you have a reason to do so. Saying "this guy is SO right" is a waste of a post. And in any case, he isn't. Rantzu hadn't played anywhere near as much as previously, merely because he was afraid of losing his rating. Wouldn't being reset be a wonderful feeling? The knowledge that you have no rating pressure on you to win?

Hold on, I've posted this already. Ignore me.

[Warcow]

Yep, but only with your dual scouts. On my home server, I recall you had some issues bombing me. :cool:

:o! I've never lost to you nub :D You and I played tons over in that fairy place you call home :p. Actually now that I think about it I may have lost to you in a single rush game. But hey, that doesn't mean you can't be a n00b :).

[Twelve]

Saying "this guy is SO right" is a waste of a post.


HAha...I've got a long ways to go to catch up to the many posts you've wasted. So let me be.

12

[Godmic18]

I am THE n00b. :cool:
Ok, enough spamming this thread. Back to the Rantzu Debate.

[Jeffery]

(Probably a double post)

...yes, and if this problem is so easily fixable himself, we might as well just save him time and give him his stats back, since he did indeed put in the time and energy before. MEANWHILE, we can make sure that from this point on such a thing doesn't happen again.

12
And what qualifications will need to be met? What standards will be set for meting forth such action in the future? Accidents happen, and the TAO TOS even says that they make no guarantees of any kind toward uninterupted and uncorrupted gameplay.

The argument all along has been that rantzu is a special case, which is very true. he above all else has the ability to play at a level where rating really should matter less. As pointed out, he was number 1 and still played, while many of the top 20's were placeholders.
If he is willing to play as an 1800, why not play his way back there?
And yes "no one knows his mind". But if TAO is about playing the game, and not about a magic number next to a name, then what should it matter to him what the number is for a while?

[Sean629]

That really isn't fair.

Some of us in the top 20 have been playing for a year and a half, if we want to take some time off, we have every right.


Warcow not going after anybody but retired and time off is fine in my book, I am taking time off playing and only playing people in my clan til I feel I am better. Well guys I'm off to work cya.

[Bottle]

HAha...I've got a long ways to go to catch up to the many posts you've wasted. So let me be.

12
At least I my "wasted" posts aren't on a topic that could result in a serious change to game rules/a lot of annoyance to the admins from people requesting their ratings back after a wipe.

[Twelve]

And what qualifications will need to be met? What standards will be set for meting forth such action in the future? Accidents happen, and the TAO TOS even says that they make no guarantees of any kind toward uninterupted and uncorrupted gameplay.

The argument all along has been that rantzu is a special case, which is very true. he above all else has the ability to play at a level where rating really should matter less. As pointed out, he was number 1 and still played, while many of the top 20's were placeholders.
If he is willing to play as an 1800, why not play his way back there?
And yes "no one knows his mind". But if TAO is about playing the game, and not about a magic number next to a name, then what should it matter to him what the number is for a while?

1. The qualifications to be met are simple. It's very easy to see when someone has not payed and has lost his stats. A very simple qualification should be if this problem is attended to within the same month. In Rantzu's case, this was clearly seen by all THE NEXT DAY that an injustice took place with him.

2. Focus on that part where you agree that Rantzu is a "special case".

3. Why not play his way back there? Because he's already done it! Who are we to say that he should do it again for a reason that's not his fault?

12

[Twelve]

At least I my "wasted" posts aren't on a topic that could result in a serious change to game rules/a lot of annoyance to the admins from people requesting their ratings back after a wipe.

....

Like Jeffery said, stop posting here please if you don't like this topic.

Edit: Sorry about the double.


12

[Bottle]

I do like this topic. I think it's a very important topic, and could cause a number of problems if it's implicated. Which is why I want the discussion to be clear and obvious, so that Sergiy can make a rational and sensible decision.

I just don't feel these last 40-ish posts have contributed anything to the discussion at all. Both sides have presented their arguments, and now it's falling into petty squabbling over minor points.

[Jeffery]

1. The qualifications to be met are simple. It's very easy to see when someone has not payed and has lost his stats. A very simple qualification should be if this problem is attended to within the same month. In Rantzu's case, this was clearly seen by all THE NEXT DAY that an injustice took place with him.

2. Focus on that part where you agree that Rantzu is a "special case".

3. Why not play his way back there? Because he's already done it! Who are we to say that he should do it again for a reason that's not his fault?

12
3. For the fun of it? Or is playing the game and taking away everyone elses points not fun?

Actually, stop arguing with me! If he plays his way back, he would lower the collective ratings of all the other clans that play him, and raise netjaks at the same time, hence pulling our clan ranking compaired to others up. This would be GOOD for netjak.

Ok, here is something all of us can agree on. Sergiy said the results of the pole would decide the return of stats. Simply put, any discussion here is null and void, as only that number menas something.

In the end, all the discussion in the world ends up in the same place. The majority does agree that his stats should be given back. And like any good case, the precident being set will simply have to be dealt with when the matter comes up.

[Twelve]

Actually, stop arguing with me! If he plays his way back, he would lower the collective ratings of all the other clans that play him, and raise netjaks at the same time, hence pulling our clan ranking compaired to others up. This would be GOOD for netjak.



O.K., Jeff, I'll take the humurous nature of this argument as your way of calling for a backdown. 'Twas fun. :)

12

[Bottle]

In the end, all the discussion in the world ends up in the same place. The majority does agree that his stats should be given back.
Exactly.

However, hopefully, Sergiy will read the thread as well before making the decision. It might be more helpful than looking at the poll (where about 15 of the yes votes come just because rantzu is popular). This is why I wanted the thread discussion short and sweet, so Sergiy won't just skip it out of boredom.

Oh well. This is my last point on the matter:

And like any good case, the precident being set will simply have to be dealt with when the matter comes up.
Hopefully Sergiy will bear this in mind when making the decision.

[Twelve]

(where about 15 of the yes votes come just because rantzu is popular).


So far, Bottle, you've complained about:

1. Arguments about nothing.

2. Posts about nothing.

3. Polls based on popularity contests.

Bottle, aren't these things your bread and butter? :)

12

[Jeffery]

Moo

[Godmic18]

Moo

Very good point, Jeff.

[emerald slasher]

Moo

i can almost always agree with that

[ryan56]

I got bored so i voted...i pulled out of a hat and i got yes...i dont really care tho

[Realist]

As far as I see it, its fine to restore Rantzu's rating and not others, but only if a uniform standard is applied. Say, accounts which had stats at 1600+ can have stats restored (but not drops. I don't think drops should be restored). This way you neither have to worry about every single accidently lost account or about giveing Rantzu special treatment.

[roody poo]

I felt after reading 12 pages I should be able to throw out my opinion. Yeah it sucks for Rant, it really does. The money situation and really the unscheduled wipe. But what about Bottle? And what about the fact that at one point Trauger and *TN* both had their stats replaced.

My solution:
If this is REALLY honestly just about recognition of his hard work and his stats, then give him some recognition on the home page or something about what he has done stat wise, and let him rebuild his account if he still wants to play on Banff. I say no to the restoration, but give the guy some love for what he has done....until that mark is passed by someone else.

[Jeffery]

As far as I see it, its fine to restore Rantzu's rating and not others, but only if a uniform standard is applied. Say, accounts which had stats at 1600+ can have stats restored (but not drops. I don't think drops should be restored). This way you neither have to worry about every single accidently lost account or about giveing Rantzu special treatment.
Only in cases where an early wipe happened though. Anyone with a 1600+ ranking should know when the wipes are usually scheduled, and shouldn;t be caught by surprise. There should also be a statuate of limitations in place where the person must apply for such rebate within an allotted time, to ensure it is related to the wipe itself.

[Poop Slinger]

As far as I see it, its fine to restore Rantzu's rating and not others, but only if a uniform standard is applied. Say, accounts which had stats at 1600+ can have stats restored (but not drops. I don't think drops should be restored). This way you neither have to worry about every single accidently lost account or about giveing Rantzu special treatment.

xyx.. think about that.. All you have to do is be a 1600 player and you can get your stats back.. Bias bias

There should not be a ONE time thing or a just because. MORE BIAS.. come on.

The only thing that should be in question is.. it is a TAO error or not.. If not tough. Paypal errors occur. Rant knew he turned grey, and he did turn grey befre being deleted. He could have done something about it. Why doesn't he just advance his ~Gladiator~ account.

[old_man_killer]

That "remote timezone" is the same one (within an hour) of the one I'm posting from. :rolleyes:

Why am I still posting here? :confused:

Because you are addicted to posting?

It is a very unfortunate turn of events. I voted that he get his stats back and I agree Bottle should have gotten his back.

I agree with the pro, Rantzu was not at fault and shouldn't be punished
I agree with the cons that there should not be special treatment or favoritism to anyone.So in effect if the policy is to be changed (i think it should) then it needs to be for everyone.

[Geeky_Bastard]

omk knows lost years cannot be recovered, thats why hes partying with nomar and rood nowadays :), i agreee with what realist said, it makes sense and is do-able (i think but since hes a mod it prolly is), many good points have been posted and should be thougt about, i think he should get em back and with realists idea it makes it not totally unfair.

*gives rant a hug* nice work :cool:

haha that post was almost serious

[Realist]

Poop,

Its not bias in that you generally have to work harder to get to 1600...it is a greater accomplishment than just 1200 or something.

I do not have a problem with any decision made as long as it is made uniformly, that is, no special treatment for a single specific member of the community.

[Geeky_Bastard]

:confused: was that poop directed at me? .....i agreed with you.....

-edit oh theres sum1 named poop slinger....

[Poop Slinger]

<------ Poop(meletus).

[Geeky_Bastard]

<------ Poop(meletus).
just figured that out lol....

[Cuathon]

i ahve to agree that there should be a stat restriction if this happens. i can bust a 1200 in a day regardless of grey or gold. dpeending how fare the wipe was before the incident maybe a 1300. however i think the limit should be lowered to 1500.

[serg]

Lets make it clear. This is not about changing the rules. Such poll was never created before and probably will not be ever created in the future for anyone else. According to the rules there should be no restore, thats it.

The aim of this poll is to answer the question - do you think that this case is so special that we should make an exception for this guy and restore his points against the rules? If you wanna make him such gift answer yes, if dont' - answer no.

At the end we will look not only on numbers. Only if absolute majority (something like 75% against 25%) agrees to restore it, then it will be restored. If this topic become a global battlefield, then it will be just closed.

PS. I already regret that I made it...

[DARKSMILE]

You are the man sergiy

[CRX687]

At the end we will look not only on numbers. Only if absolute majority (something like 75% against 25%) agrees to restore it, then it will be restored.

39-12... so it's getting restored?

[serg]

39-12... so it's getting restored?

We will see at the end of voting.

[Realist]

I voted yes, but should have voted no. We cannot make exceptions for individual players, even exceptional ones.

[Poop Slinger]

see.. i knew you were tired...;) 38-14