Vampire Bat

[Mithrandir]

Certified Gold Unit (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16946)

Well I finally came up with another unit. I’ve kept myself busy on this forum by doing a lot of commenting and organizing the updated poll but until now I haven’t been able to come up with any ideas I was satisfied enough with to post (though I had dozens of ideas I scrapped because they didn’t ultimately strike me as excellent). I hope you like my seventh unit. :cool:

This one, like almost all my other units is defensive. What can I say? Turtles rock!

Vampire Bat (Beast unit)

(I needed a unit that sucks blood so I strongly considered making it a lawyer. Of course I decided against it but it would have been funny. :bigsmile: And for the record, it is a type of bat, not a type of vampire.)

HP: 40
Armor: 10
Power: 0
Blocking: 20 (10)
Movement: 3 (teleportation)
Recovery: 3
Attack pattern: Attacks a single unit within a range of 6 (unblockable non-focus attack, LOS doesn’t apply). It flies (teleports) to the unit and sucks blood and then teleports back to the spot it was in (that’s just the attack, movement isn’t included in that). Practically speaking it’s just a long range attack but most bats can’t suck blood from long range so it’s just to make it fit the unit better.

The first time the victim is attacked by the Vampire Bat its attack power is reduced by 2 and its recovery time is permanently increased by one (meaning from now on if it’s a scout it will recover at 3 instead of 2). If the same unit is attacked again the attack power is reduced by 2 again (attack power cannot be lowered by more than 50% so eventually this aspect of the attack would stop affecting a unit that is attacked enough times) and the permanent recovery time is unaffected but the temporary recovery of the unit will be increased by 1 (so if an enemy scout needs one more turn to recover and it is attacked by this unit for what is not the first time, the recovery will be boosted to 2). If the Vampire Bat is killed, all effects are reversed so affected units will get back their maximum attack power and normal recovery time. This makes it especially important to protect the Vampire Bat well as its low HP, armor and blocking make it vulnerable. Its very high range should be utilized well to keep it far away from attackers.

Tactics: Part of this unit is the basic concept as my Stunning Golem but with adjustments that significantly changes the strategy of the unit and, in my opinion, completely eliminates the problem of abuse potential. The strategy is to be able to help neutralize enemy units when they’re rushing in to give you more time to kill them with your other units (A KEY POINT because this unit can kill NOTHING by itself, it must work well with the other units) yet without an easily broken focus attack like the frost golem. This unit would work very well with a furgon as it would give it time to greatly reduce a unit’s ability to cause effective damage.

Naturally the permanent (or until the VB is killed) increase in an enemy unit’s recovery time is especially deadly so one would probably want to attack many different enemy units at first instead of focusing on one. The VB would be especially nasty against scouts because the extra recovery time would greatly increase their vulnerability and having their power reduced to 16 (or lower) would eliminate it’s ability to kill a cleric in two shots even with a heal. It would also be especially effective against a mud golem with the intention of doing successive quake attacks because instead of damaging units with a power of 15, 10 and 5 it would only do 13, 8 and 3, much less of a nuisance. Knights with a recovery time of 2 would be much more difficult to attack with especially because of the need to wait 1 turn after just moving.

I’m quite pleased with this unit although it took more time to iron out the details than most of my previous units. It’s completely tactical in that it can’t kill any units by itself but by working together well with the friendly units it would greatly neutralize the enemy units. It was a challenge to make it work but I’m convinced that it is powerful enough that it would be worth using (though only for someone that could use it well) yet it clearly does not fall under the category of overpowering.

As always, read the info carefully as this one is a bit complicated, and comment.

By the way, thanks to Lonely Tylenol for helping me finalize a balanced way of doing the attack and for helping me figure out a good name. :)

Edit: For the sake of clarification, the attack power is not decreased with poison or healing.

[Hellblazer]

OMG, It's incredible. This attack is very startegetic. I mean, your opponent would have almost a 35% chance of winning, instead of 50%, with the VB. Very nice, Mithrandir. Keep this kind of stuff coming.

[Hoolwath]

nice... ;)

cept from the fact that it would be another no-damage-making (those 2 lives are easily healable) unit :(. And if u used it in a "classic" gold turtle it would be another unit u dont have to kill to win.

And it would sure make game longer, and someone could find it hard not to be bored even if its only 1 turn more. :D

[Mithrandir]

“cept from the fact that it would be another no-damage-making (those 2 lives are easily healable) unit .”

Some units are no damage. This one neutralizes units so your other units can kill them.

“And if u used it in a "classic" gold turtle it would be another unit u dont have to kill to win.”

This is simply false. This is not a contraption, it would have to be killed.

“And it would sure make game longer, and someone could find it hard not to be bored even if its only 1 turn more.”

The furgon makes the game longer too. A lot longer.

[Hoolwath]

“And if u used it in a "classic" gold turtle it would be another unit u dont have to kill to win.”

This is simply false. This is not a contraption, it would have to be killed.

.

imagine a situation, when u have Vampire bat, stoney, frosty, cleric and Lw ward, furgon .... how would u like to win with em? U have only four (without HG) units killed.

Most of the guys would disconnect. Cause u cant kill any unit.

[Mithrandir]

Well obviously you shouldn’t let that kind of situation happen, just like you shouldn’t let it happen without the Bat. It’s the same thing with the furgon.

[Dangle]

I think this Unit is overpowered personally. basically u can keep it stoned and healed throughout the whole game becasue no one will dare try to come close to your turtle if you had this unit...I mean not even with an archer as this unit can basically hide behind some powerful units, Strike then retreat to be healed, or Stoned again if necessary...Not only that but this isnt even a focus spell, a scout is useless with a turn recover of three, and -2 to attack pwer aswell? I mean anyone crazy enough to get close to this unit deserves to lose anyways but I dont like it much at all....

[Sanity]

actually, considering the zero attack, i think that this is a pretty balanced unit. nice job, Mithrandir. i usually think that stat reducing is a bit overpowered, but you somehow made this unit balanced. this would be in my top five units that i would like to see put into the game. :)

also, i agree that the furgon does a nice job of making the game longer. Cavour and i once had a game where no unit died for about half an hour, because both of us were using the furgons to bait each other. :)

[Cross Punisher]

Is this unit able to break other unit's focus?

[Mithrandir]

I love seeing a unit that is absolutely loved by some yet despised by others. It is so interesting.

Dangle, it doesn’t make an attack impossible, simply more difficult. You would have to attack with multiple units for an offense to work well. But you must keep in mind that this unit has a recovery of 3 which means it can only do its movement so often. It can’t halt a good offense in its tracks, just slow it down.

Thanks Sanity, I think for this unit to work the attack power does indeed need to be zero.

CP, excellent question, I hadn’t thought about it. Considering it’s a bat that bites his victims and sucks their blood, yeah I’d say it breaks focus.

[Cross Punisher]

CP, excellent question, I hadn’t thought about it. Considering it’s a bat that bites his victims and sucks their blood, yeah I’d say it breaks focus.
:(
You know what a unit with 6 range and no LOS sounds like to me?

[Mithrandir]

If you're about to say overpowered, remember it does NO damage.

[Cross Punisher]

No damage means nothing. Me favorite units go into focus when attacking. Now I'd have 2 long range unstoppable forces to deal with.

[Mithrandir]

No damage means a heck of a lot. It’s vulnerable with low HP and blocking, all it does is partially neutralize attacking units. Naturally people are bound to disagree but I think the unit is balanced.

[Cross Punisher]

The HP in reality is 48. If it's stoned it's real HP is 60. Not to mention the turns you may waste a turn to attack the VB just to have it blocked, because witches block a lot.

[Duffman]

Bring down the armour and it's a pretty good unit. In a game context I already think there are too many ranged units. But I do like it.

Does the added recovery go to the moving recovery, attacking recovery or does it go to moving recovery if moving is less (knight) and attacking recovery if moving and attacking are equal (scout)?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm torn on the Focus thing.

On one hand, being able to break any Focus within six range without LoS is overpowered...

But on the other, any unit that has an adverse affect on another breaks focus, be it paralyzation, poison, or damage, so it's logical.

As for the rest of the unit, it was discussed between Mithrandir and myself, so I was the first to judge the unit. :cool: Obviously I approved enough for him to post it.

EDIT: Duff, it's the latter, as was the same with his Hastening Golem (removed from movement on Scout, removed from attack on Knight).

[Mithrandir]

Lowering armor a bit is reasonable. I don’t think it would make any sense to say that it can’t break focus though.

What if I reduced the attack range to 5? I like it the way it is but if everyone thinks the unit would be better if it’s range was lowered I’d probably change it. Opinions?

I’m not sure I understand the question about the recovery so I’ll just briefly explain. Any unit that is hit with this will have the added recovery and that recovery will act just like another unit with that recovery. For example, if a scout got hit by the Bat, it’s recovery time would act like a witch. Just a movement and no attack would still be 1 recovery, attack with no movement would be 2 recovery instead of 1 and both movement and attack would be 3 recovery instead of 2.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Does the added recovery go to the moving recovery, attacking recovery or does it go to moving recovery if moving is less (knight) and attacking recovery if moving and attacking are equal (scout)?

Mithrandir (or Mith), Duff's question was if it changed just attacking recovery or just movement recovery each time, or if it changed based on the former recovery (odd numbered recovery adds to movement so movement and attack are both one half of the full recovery; even numbered recovery adds to attack so attack will be rounded up and movement rounded down).

[Mithrandir]

K. What's your opinion on lowering armor and/or lowering the attack range by one?

LOL! I got an anon neg rep for this thread saying “No. Just No, terrible idea.” Dude, I don’t dislike people for disagreeing with me. I do however dislike cowards that don’t have the guts to sign their neg reps. By the way, it only affected one point so I’m betting it’s a noob. Big shock.

[Lonely Tylenol]

What's your opinion on lowering armor and/or lowering the attack range by one?

I believe the first thing I said after you posted it was "oh, is that a 2 before the 0 in armor?"

Less armor sounds good.

[Mithrandir]

Fair enough, I'll reduce the armor to 10. What about the attack range, should that be adjusted?

[Dangle]

I'd like to see attack range lowered by one. Then this unit would be more balanced in my eyes. However, thinking about it a little more thoroughly, I realized that this unit may only get the chance to attack one unit before it gets bombarded with GA's or Scouts and even though one of those units may be slower by 1 turn recovery, This units affect shouldnt hurt the attacker's advances that much. I mean if you have three untis attacking you should be smart enough to figure out an order of attack which allows a continuous rate of attack on the enemy. I like how this unit can slow down a GA from just pummeling it from really far away because it has no LOS either. So I guess throughout this post i have changed my mind about this unit, Id Keep the attack range the same, or if you Lower it, Keep the armor higher.

[Mithrandir]

I'm open to suggestions right now about the attack range and armor so I am especially interested in opinions.

Hey Kyir, you're known around here for your strong opinions (good or bad, it's true). What's yours on this unit?

[Mithrandir]

I hate to bump my own unit here with a double post but I really want more feedback.

[Hoolwath]

if anyone doesnt want to say anything about it, that means they dont see anythig bad about it. Lucky you. U dont have to bump it again. Its just good. :)

[Mithrandir]

I wasn't finished figuring out if I was going to change the attack range so I was hoping for some more feedback. Oh well, I suppose I'll just let the conversation die.

[Admiral Moor]

I would keep the attack range the same. I like a unit that can attack from far away, but that also can be killed easily enough, like the scout and GA. keep the good ideas coming.