Gramenger

[Mithrandir]

Certified Platinum Unit (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16946)

The Gramenger was inspired by the long grass scene in “Jurassic Park: The Lost World.” I haven’t seen that movie in years, I despise it as it didn’t live up to the original, but I always loved the long grass scene. For those of you that may not know, the Velociraptors are prominent in the first movie but are conspicuously absent in the first two thirds of the second, which makes the tension grow. The survivors are traveling to a building with a radio or something, I don’t like the movie enough to care to remember. Anyway, they’re passing through a large field with grass at least five feet high. The director brilliantly shows the raptors closing in on their prey, with the camera above so you have a good angle. You can watch as from all sides, the raptors slowly approach their doomed prey. Most of the survivors die in the brilliant ambush.

Gramenger (By the way, in case you were wondering, the name comes from the Latin word for grass, “Gramen.” Big time thanks to CP for the help. And by the way, it isn’t pronounced like it rhymes with avenger. It’s pronounced Gram-en-jer.)

HP: 40
Armor: 12
Power: 0
Blocking: 40
Movement: 3
Recovery: 1
Attack Pattern: The Gramenger selects one square up to three spaces away, which will be affected as well as its four adjacent squares (just like a furgon, except a range of three instead of a range of two).

Special Ability-Grass Summon: The Gramenger does not summon shrubs, but something much different: Long grass. Long grass CAN be walked into and walked through by either player (and long grass does not affect LOS). The grass affects both players in the same way: you can see any of your own units when they’re in a space with long grass but your opponent can’t (and you can’t see his), giving you the opportunity to ambush him or hide a damaged unit if you play your cards right. You CANNOT summon long grass in a space already occupied by a unit.

Long grass is killed the same way as shrubs, it has no HP (so naturally the muddy would be an effective counter). So if an opposing unit is in a space occupied by long grass and you attack him, the grass is destroyed and the opposing unit is damaged (if it doesn’t block). The opponent will not be able to see which direction the attack came from, unless the unit blocks the attack. Long grass does NOT affect LOS. It is only destroyed if targeted directly, or if a unit is in the same space and IT is targeted, directly or indirectly. One potentially effective, but risky, way of trying to locate units hidden long grass would be to use a scout to shoot through as many spaces as possible, hoping to find a hidden enemy unit. Think of it the way it would work in the second Jurassic Park movie. The grass offers no physical obstacle in a fight, it can be walked through and shot through, it’s just a place you can hide. Long grass cannot be on the same space as a shrub. You can’t grow long grass on a space with a shrub but you CAN grow shrubs on spaces with long grass (destroying the grass) as long as there are no units there. This is a key point because shrubs CANNOT be hidden by long grass. Again, it is important to remember that long grass is NOT an obstacle. All it does is give units a place to hide.

Units have a visual range of 1 when they’re in long grass. In other words, you can see an enemy unit in long grass if one of your units is only one space away from it. The Gramenger has a visual range of 4, making it a key unit for not only growing the grass, but making it the most advantageous to you. On one hand, it has low defense so you must conceal it carefully but on the other hand if you don't keep it near the battle you could end up just as confused as your opponent. You MUST keep the Gramenger nearby so you'll be able to see more than your opponent can see.

One other minor complication is that if you shoot at a unit with a projectile when your unit is in long grass, it’s only logical that the ambush would reduce the unit’s odds of successfully blocking. Thus, blocking percentage in this kind of circumstance is reduced by 10 (5 from the side).

The tactical potential of this unit is huge. Note that while the long grass is grown in a way that is similar to shrubs, the tactics are completely different. The grass is not meant to replace shrubs. It is to, like in the second Jurassic Park movie, create opportunities to ambush your opponent or simply let the unknown be a threat to scare your opponent off. As the TAO grandmaster Bottle said in his strategy guide:
Threats are everything in this game; they stop your opponent doing what he wants, and that gives you a chance to do what you want instead.
If you create an expansive area with long grass and put a few units in there, your opponent would have to be extremely aggressive to risk advancing.

Scouts, knights or other melee units can attack from the grass and remain unseen but while units with focus attacks like poison wisps and frost golems CAN enter a grassy space, they CANNOT attack while in that space.

[This is no longer true, see the edit below]There is a key practical question I’d like to address. If you place a unit with high movement in a field of grass, you may be thinking you could just find a missing unit by finding which space you can’t walk into. But that isn’t the way it would work. You CAN select a space with an enemy unit on it but your unit would simply stop when it got to that space.

Another practical thing to address: if a combat unit has the choice between walking to a destination in the open or when he can have cover, he will choose cover every time. Thus, it is only logical that in this kind of situation, that is the way a unit will move. See Duffman's first post on page 2 of this thread for a good illustration of the way this works (thanks Duff).

I certainly haven’t been this pleased with a unit since the Mirage Ward, to be honest I’m not sure I’ve EVER been this pleased with a unit. The concept is simple, all this unit does is create grass to hide units in (it’s just the myriad of details that gets complicated) yet the tactical potential of this unit is fantastic. I don't think it can even be disputed that it's balanced considering the grass has the exact same effect to both players. The only difference is that if you grow it, you get to use it on your terms and you have the advantage of having a unit with better vision, both of which are significant advantages but hey, if there were no advantages why would you even bother using it?

This unit fits the following qualification of a great unit to a tea (this is roughly a quote of mine that I made when arguing about the Mirage Ward): Any unit that is overpowered in the hands of a good player and underpowered in the hands of a bad player is a GREAT unit. This is complicated enough that it would take a great deal of time to master, and even then only truly good players could reap the full benefits. But all a mediocre player would gain from this unit is confusion.

I hope you like this unit as much as I do, let me know what you think.

To close this, I must give a shout-out: a huge thanks to CRX687 for his invaluable help in tweaking this unit. Most of his suggestions were somewhat minor as I already had my mind pretty settled. But the idea of making the grass affect both players in the same way is completely his. I wanted it to basically be “magic grass” (as he put it) where your opponent can’t see units in your grass but you can see his. That would not have been balanced or half as tactical. Thanks for saving my unit from mediocrity, I owe you one. :)

Edit: The above green paragraph is no longer the case. See this (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showpost.php?p=587632&postcount=78) post for an explanation of how the movement would work (thanks xerent).

[Hellblazer]

I ,like that unit. It would be very useful if you have a unit in a life-or-death situation and it's also original. I would be proud of this unit as well, Mith.
Unit Grade: A+

[22woger22]

wow....very,very,very original and uniquely interesting

[Mithrandir]

Thanks y'all. :)

I hate making the first post so long but it's necessary for this unit.

[stupid joey]

Imagine what you could do with 2 scouts sitting in the grass. :bigsmile: In my opinion this is your best tactical unit. Heck if I was a judge, I'm assuming it makes gold, I would vote to make it platinum.

[Mithrandir]

Thanks SJ. :cool:

[Deathhead]

:p WOW very original :p

[The Assassin]

Good job on this one Mith. Oh, and I agree with you about the second jurasic park movie, the book was much better.

[Mithrandir]

Yeah, though it didn't have the long grass scene. :cool: I did enjoy the book a lot though. My favorite Crichton book, by far, is the first Jurassic Park. Second is Sphere. My brother and I used to go through a bunch of his books together. Have you read a lot of his books?

[The Assassin]

I haven't had the oppertunity to read a lot. I have read both Jurassic Park books, and yes, the first is better. I kind of like when Muldoon gets crammed into the pipe.

[Mithrandir]

I can't remember that part well. :( I SO need to read that book again.

[Serge]

Wow.

[Mithrandir]

Man, that can mean anything. Do you like it?

[Serge]

Oh right, suggestions to make this unit better. Umm...a better name?

[Mithrandir]

I think the name works, unless you have a better suggestion.

[Serge]

I don't, but I can't think of anything that could improve this. It's like, best ever?

[Mithrandir]

Now it's my turn to say "wow."

Thanks, coming from you that means more than you know.

[Seraph_Knight]

It's really really really good, but....


.... I dunno....


... maybe the 4 vision range in grass for it is one to much?

[Mithrandir]

I gave a lot of thought to the vision. Ultimately, I think the thing that makes this unit so good is that it is so balanced because the grass affects both players the same way. The only advantage you have if you're the one growing the grass is the opportunity to put the grass where you want it and when you want it, and the opportunity to see more than your opponent. I think 4 range is just right, thanks for the suggestion though.

[Serge]

It's really really really good, but....


.... I dunno....


... maybe the 4 vision range in grass for it is one to much?
Yeah, I think that may be a little too much, perhaps 3.

And who hit go on the way-back machine? Where did you come from, Seraph, I remember you from way back in the day.

[Mithrandir]

I'll consider reducing the vision I guess. I'd like to hear some more feedback.

[Seraph_Knight]

Meh, i quit gold and stopped playing becuase the units were just getting boring after playing with them for a while. So I also left the forums and went and played other games and such.

[stupid joey]

I think that 4 does make it easier to use without having as much skill. So 3 would make it harder to use. Let me put that differently. It would require more skill and knowledge of tactics with a range of 3. So incase I havent confused you yet I think that 3 would be better than 4.

[Duffman]

I think four is better than three. It's not excessive at all. And think about this; Gramenger summons Long Grass three tiles away but doesn't move, because it's a cross shaped pattern this means using a Gramenger vision of three then you can only see opposition units in 2 of those tiles of long grass as the 'real' range is 4. I think the Gramenger should have vision in all of the newly summoned grass even when he uses his full summoning range.

One clause i would add to the unit would be that if a unit can walk through the grass to get to their target destination then they will. Lamens terms, units prefer walking in cover than out in the open. Reason.

K - Knight
G - Grass

_ _ K _ _
_ _ G _ _
_ G G G _
_ _ G _ _

Now you want to get your knight to a spot in the grass.... Lets pick one

T - Target grass to move to

_ _ K _ _
_ _ G _ _
_ T G G _
_ _ G _ _

However the problem is *how* the Knight gets there. Will the knight go;

_ _ _ _ _ > _ _ _ _ _ > _ _ _ _ _
_ _ K _ _ > _ _ G _ _ > _ _ G _ _
_ T G G _ > _ T K G _ > _ K G G _
_ _ G _ _ > _ _ G _ _ > _ _ G _ _

or;

_ K _ _ _ > _ _ _ _ _ > _ _ _ _ _
_ _ G _ _ > _ K G _ _ > _ _ G _ _
_ T G G _ > _ T G G _ > _ K G G _
_ _ G _ _ > _ _ G _ _ > _ _ G _ _

You can see the difference. On hugs the grass so he could be in any of the grass squares, one only enteres the grass on the last possible move, making it obvious where he is.

There is only one other thing to say really...

Duffman committee certified:Best unit

[Mithrandir]

I think four is better than three. It's not excessive at all. And think about this; Gramenger summons Long Grass three tiles away but doesn't move, because it's a cross shaped pattern this means using a Gramenger vision of three then you can only see opposition units in 2 of those tiles of long grass as the 'real' range is 4.
I’m not sure if you understand the vision. It isn’t just four tiles away, it’s up TO four tiles away. Or do I misunderstand you?

And I agree about walking in cover if possible, it's only logical that way. Thanks, I'll make the change.
There is only one other thing to say really...

Duffman committee certified:Best unit
I'm honored. :)

[Duffman]

I think you misunderstand me... This is how it would be if vision was three.


G - Gramenger
g - Long Grass
Vision of the Gramenger is represented using an outline of ~'s
x - range of Gramenger
T - Targeted attack area.

_ _ _ _ _~x~_ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _~x x x~_ _ _ _
_ _ _~x x x x x~_ _ _
_ _~x x x G x x x~_ _
_ _ _~x x x x x~_ _ _
_ _ _ _~x x x~_ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _~x~_ _ _ _ _



_ _ _ _ _~_~_ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _~_ _ _~_ _ _ _
_ _ _~_ _ _ _ _~T _ _
_ _~_ _ _ G _ T T~T _
_ _ _~_ _ _ _ _~T _ _
_ _ _ _~_ _ _~_ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _~_~_ _ _ _ _



_ _ _ _ _~_~_ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _~_ _ _~_ _ _ _
_ _ _~_ _ _ _ _~g _ _
_ _~_ _ _ G _ g g~g _
_ _ _~_ _ _ _ _~g _ _
_ _ _ _~_ _ _~_ _ _ _
_ _ _ _ _~_~_ _ _ _ _

As you can see if you understnad the diagrams is that there are only two grasses
that are inside the gramengers vision there.

[Mithrandir]

Ah, I get it now. You're really good with the illustrations, you know that?

It seems to me that I can't lower the vision unless I lower the range and I really don't think I can lower the range. I think it'd be hard to argue that this unit is overpowered, even with a vision of four.

I have CRX to thank for that last fact. If I had gone with my first draft the grass would have affected both sides much differently.

[Serge]

Ah, well in that case, give CRX his props for his aid, and Duff's props for showing me why 4 is greater than 3.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm honored.

Well, at least this time you aren't surprised. :laugh:

A truly good unit.

I'd rank this... Second among your units, right behind the Hastening Golem, by a slim margin.

I'd vote this Platinum for sure.

Considering only two other unts have had the honor of my vote... That should mean something. :good:

One thing that should be noted, though, is that since this unit only provides protection to units that are concealed within the grass, this unit would have absolutely no early game potential. Whether or not many people would use it in a turtle should be called into question; it offers absolutely no Cleric protection unless you move the Cleric within range... It has no use in an antirush whatsoever, because the only times it will provide real protection is for units it would be irrelevant with.

In order to use this unit, you would need both a defensive form and lots of time... This will make it completely useless against rushes.

[Mithrandir]

Yeah, I never considered it a rush unit. Though while it wouldn't protect the cleric directly, I think it could potentially be even better than the furgon at providing cover considering the constant threat.

I have a lot of thank yous for help with this unit, CP for suggesting I use a search engine which let me to a Latin dictionary, Duffman for the illustration I wouldn't have been able to come up with as I suck with those (I may have tried a screenshot but that takes so long especially with shrubs), and above all CRX687 because if it wasn't for his touch, this unit would just not have been the same. It would have been good but it wouldn't have been great. Please do me a favor and pos him when he comes here and posts. :)

[Seraph_Knight]

Though it isnt a anti-rush, in the time i've used furgons by the end of the battle the majority of the field is covered shrubs. So in this case, by late game it would be really helpful with all that grass. On another note, does the long grass destroy shrubs when it is cast on them?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Though it isnt a anti-rush, in the time i've used furgons by the end of the battle the majority of the field is covered shrubs. So in this case, by late game it would be really helpful with all that grass. On another note, does the long grass destroy shrubs when it is cast on them?

Two different scenarios. The Furgon is useful against Rushes because it can actually prevent an assault, or some of it. Enemies can actually walk through the long grass, which means wasting a unit slot on this in any game involving a rush will put you at a very distinct disadvantage. Its rather stoic use in games is a big disadvantage for the unit itself.

[Devlin777]

I'm humbled.

One question...If a unit is at the edge of the long grass, can it see, unencumbered, out into the clear areas as normal, or does the long grass on that tile interfere with vision?

Just wondering.

[Mithrandir]

On another note, does the long grass destroy shrubs when it is cast on them?
I answered that question in my first post but there’s a lot there so I’ll just answer it again. Long grass can’t be cast on a space with a shrub but a shrub CAN be cast on a space with long grass.
One question...If a unit is at the edge of the long grass, can it see, unencumbered, out into the clear areas as normal, or does the long grass on that tile interfere with vision?
I don’t think you understand the way the vision works. It isn’t a matter of you getting to see what any particular unit sees, you, the player, gets to see what all of your units combined can see. A unit right next to a grass space can see into it so you can see into it.

[Devlin777]

Units have a visual range of 1 when they’re in long grass. In other words, you can see an enemy unit in long grass if one of your units is only one space away from it.


More likely than not, I AM misunderstand. Perhaps I posed the questions poorly.

If MY unit is on a tile occupied by LONGGRASS, can it see out into the open to attack an opposing unit two or more tiles away?

Thank you, in advance, for your reply. I hope I'm not being a pest.

[Mithrandir]

You can see any unit that is not in long grass, whether or not you're in long grass.

Not a pest at all.

[Duffman]

LT, not every unit should be useful against all formations. With this reasoning there would only be generic units such as knights. The way i see it you use furgon if you are going to be playing a rush and Gramenger if you are playing a turtle. Why not even use both :).

[death_boy]

i also love it! that would rock, but... the angle that the game screen always it, the person on the top of te gameboard can see ur unit
or is it like this

G = grass
p = a person... knight ect;

G
G P G
G

[death_boy]

sry, i meant the grass surrounding the person

[Mithrandir]

The angle of the screen doesn't affect anything, if it's in grass and no enemy unit is within its vision range, it's hidden.

[xerent]

Mith, this is a really fantastic unit. But I'm not sure I like it.

A quick thing I am unsure of is Paralyzation: If A Frost is in Grass, and Paralyzes a unit, is Frost revealed?

This unit coupled with the furgon... *shudder*

The thing I don't like about this unit, is that it turns the game into Battleship. What I enjoy about TAO is the move-countermove scenarios that it presents. This unit somewhat decimates that concept. Sure, it's not that powerful stat-wise, but it COMPLETELY changes the dynamic of the game. If the opponent dosen't have a variety of multi-tile attacker (I.E, if the player isn't a rusher) then they are at a DISTINCT and LARGE disadvantage.

Without knowing what your opponent has done, you are no longer pitting two tactical minds against each other move for move, which is what I feel this game is about. Sure, I think it's a great idea to have a facet of stealth, trickery, and deciet, as I feel they are a general part in what the term 'tactics' mean.

I don't feel that this unit adds threats, but instead, it adds potential threats. These are VERY different things. Threats are everything. You have 10 threats, your opponent has 10 threats. Lets see who wins. 10 threats < 9 threats + 5 potential threats.

Without the 'Maybe I have something here, maybe I don't. Are you going to use precious turns to find out?'.

</$.02>

[Mithrandir]

A quick think I am unsure of is Paralyzation: If A Frost is in Grass, and Paralyzes a unit, is Frost revealed?
I specified this in the first post. Frosties and wisps can’t attack at all when they’re in long grass. I considered making it so the grass is just destroyed so you can see them but I didn’t like that as much.

You’re right, it would dramatically affect the way the game works. It would add a whole new layer of strategy, especially with the vision aspect in mind. But the way I look at it, it is certainly not a rush unit and probably not an anti-rush unit. So if you’re going to play a turtle game, just like you can choose to say “no ambusher,” if you really didn’t like the new strategy the Gramenger would offer, you could simply also specify “no Gramenger.” I don't think that would be especially common but it's not like you could never play a traditional game again.

Thanks for the input.

[Devlin777]

Well explained, Mith!

[Cross Punisher]

What about that BW question I asked you before when you first showed me the unit? I think it was something like if you barriered a unit in long grass would your opponent be able to tell where it was or somthing like that.

[Mithrandir]

Good question CP, I'd forgotten about that. If you barrier a unit in long grass, you'll be able to see the barrier covering the long grass which means there must be a unit there because you can't barrier an empty space. But your opponent will not see what unit it is unless it's within his visual range.

[Tag Captain]

Well, I'm going to be as critical as I can here. The lack of things I have to say, considering I'm in my most critical mode, says a lot already.

But I'm not jumping on the "best unit ever" bandwagon. This has a few minor inherent problems which I can see.

Firstly, let me summarize. This is almost a Fog of War unit. I don't think any sort of Fog of War should be implemented on this game, and the limited amount of "grassing" that you can do is all that stops me from saying "No" right off. Why no Fog of War? Ask yourself if Fog of War would be a good addition to chess.

Secondly, and this is my biggest concern, I don't think it's powerful enough. Since building a section of grass of any significant size will take at least 4 turns, it won't be easy to use against the most predominant form nowadays where every turn is absolutely vital. In a turtle match it would be fascinating, but how many turtle matches do you normally find?

Thirdly, and this is similar to my reasoning why the furgon is underpowered, its entire use can be negated by one single mudquake. I'd give the grass some life. After all, surely it would just get slightly shaken by an earthquake and not simply topple to the ground? 10 HP would mean quake only destroys 2 spaces around the muddy. But then, I'd also advocate giving shrubs life, so you might want to ignore me on this point :)

Since every unit has a vision range of 1 in the grass, it would be pointless sending melee units in except to provide cover for them while they move or to launch a single surprise attack, because if they did ambush a unit, they would immediately be able to be seen and would become very vulnerable. With frosties and wisps also unable to attack while in the grass, that limits the use to only scouts, dragon and pyros. (The witch's position could be worked out because the grass would be destroyed by the other 3 attack spaces of her attack pattern.) That's not a particularly long list that the grass provides benefits for. Scouts can be blocked, and I doubt grass would hide a whopping great dragon in the first place, even if the fireball didn't burn the grass down when the dragon attacked.

Another point, in the endgame this unit would be absolutely killer. It could get a draw against a single unit of ANY type by simply running into the grass it makes.

And finally:

Most of the survivors die in the brilliant ambush.
But where would you bury the survivors? :wink2:

[Mithrandir]

Firstly, let me summarize. This is almost a Fog of War unit. I don't think any sort of Fog of War should be implemented on this game, and the limited amount of "grassing" that you can do is all that stops me from saying "No" right off. Why no Fog of War? Ask yourself if Fog of War would be a good addition to chess.
I guess this kind of goes to taste. It naturally wouldn’t work with chess but this game is a lot more complicated than chess.
Secondly, and this is my biggest concern, I don't think it's powerful enough. Since building a section of grass of any significant size will take at least 4 turns, it won't be easy to use against the most predominant form nowadays where every turn is absolutely vital.
I don’t know how much you read on this forum but I very frequently say that a unit that is underpowered in the hands of a bad player but overpowered in the hands of a good player is a great unit. The reason you stated above would make it quite a liability for a bad player but extremely effective for a good player. You’re known as one of the best, if not the best, turtler around. Imagine how unstoppable you would be if you could master a unit with this kind of potential.
In a turtle match it would be fascinating, but how many turtle matches do you normally find?
This is the same problem with the stone golem. I generally design units for turtle games because I think they’re a lot more interesting.
Thirdly, and this is similar to my reasoning why the furgon is underpowered, its entire use can be negated by one single mudquake. I'd give the grass some life. After all, surely it would just get slightly shaken by an earthquake and not simply topple to the ground? 10 HP would mean quake only destroys 2 spaces around the muddy. But then, I'd also advocate giving shrubs life, so you might want to ignore me on this point
This is an interesting suggestion, one I’ll certainly consider.
With frosties and wisps also unable to attack while in the grass, that limits the use to only scouts, dragon and pyros. (The witch's position could be worked out because the grass would be destroyed by the other 3 attack spaces of her attack pattern.) That's not a particularly long list that the grass provides benefits for. Scouts can be blocked, and I doubt grass would hide a whopping great dragon in the first place, even if the fireball didn't burn the grass down when the dragon attacked.
This is just one of the things that I think is necessary to keep the unit balanced. It isn’t just a place to ambush people from, you can use it to protect damaged units as well. I felt it would be overpowered if a frosty could paralyze a unit while basically invisible.
Another point, in the endgame this unit would be absolutely killer. It could get a draw against a single unit of ANY type by simply running into the grass it makes.
It would be awesome in the end game, which indirectly is another reason I think the unit is a great one. Things like this just keep it balanced. Though the possibility of just forcing a draw is not one I like. I’ll think over that.
But where would you bury the survivors?
Bleh, I meant those that survived from the previous T-Rex attacks. It did come out wrong though didn’t it?

Thanks for the comments, you had some insightful stuff here.

[Tag Captain]

As one of the foremost turtlers on the game, I always look at the unit's potential in a real match situation, firstly rush-turtle and then turtle-turtle. I can't see how this would benefit a turtler against a rusher at all. It doesn't block LOS, and even if you try hiding your cleric in the grass that will take 2 turns and the grass can still be destroyed easily. In a turtle game, same side it provides little help as well, since it doesn't even hold off units from advancing if you get second turn, which is what you need if you have 4 stoned units coming at you at once. Only opp side does it provide any benefit, and if you use it enough to provide any serious cover, you're asking to be attacked by long-ranged units that can then go in the grass and hide themselves as they kill the cleric and break stone focus.

It's great in theory, but I'm not sure it'll be brillianty effective in practise. I'm sure the Ambusher seemed like a good idea until people figured out it made for an easy cleric kill :rolleyes:

[Mithrandir]

Well, a far-reaching unit like this always has a question mark next to it. I don't think you can really know how a unit would perform in a real game unless it was introduced so you could play around with it, and with a crazy unit like this, that's even more the case. All we can really do in CAU is theorize.

What's your overall opinion, flaws and all?

[Tag Captain]

It's better than 99.9% of ideas Ive seen in this forum (which isn't saying much), and certainly better thought out than 99.99% (which saying a lot more), but I still think the game doesn't need a Fog of War unit. That's my opinion though, and judging by the response from other forum members, it would make a good addition to the game.

[Mithrandir]

Thanks, and thanks for your thoughts, it created a good opportunity to analyze this one some more. :)

[Krome]

This is a great unit.

[Mithrandir]

Thanks Krome. :)

[Dangle]

I like the Mirage Ward Better simply becuase it takes effect before the match starts which give you an upper hand against any form Rush OR Turtle.

[Mithrandir]

When it comes to liking certain units more or less it often comes down to taste. I have a pretty crazy variety of units, though I think this and the Mirage Ward are my most creative.

[Dangle]

My Force Manipulator is my only really creative unit. Its continuing to get harder and harder to come up with completely original ideas though.

*Goes off to think of more units to create*

[finalfantasyt]

The CAU Commitee should make something higher than platinum for this unit. It's beyond awesome. :)

Yeah, though it didn't have the long grass scene. :cool: I did enjoy the book a lot though. My favorite Crichton book, by far, is the first Jurassic Park. Second is Sphere. My brother and I used to go through a bunch of his books together. Have you read a lot of his books?
You read Michael Crichton? He's one of my favorite authors! I haven't gotten to read Jurassic Park yet, but Sphere and Prey were amazing! :)

[Mithrandir]

Thanks man.

Sphere and Prey were both very good, you need to read Jurassic Park though. Timeline had interesting parts but it had to much dull stuff for me to thoroughly enjoy it and the movie kind of sucked. Congo was decent, I didn't love it though.

[finalfantasyt]

Thanks man.

Sphere and Prey were both very good, you need to read Jurassic Park though. Timeline had interesting parts but it had to much dull stuff for me to thoroughly enjoy it and the movie kind of sucked. Congo was decent, I didn't love it though.
I went to borrow it from the school library, but the last copy was borrowed yesterday. :dry:
I agree that Timeline got too technical at times...but the plot of Congo was kinda funny. I mean, gorillas that crush people's skulls with stone plates? It's so weird, it's cool. :)

[cyber3000]

I think that is pretty amazing. VERY tactical and fun. Best unit i ever heard

[Mithrandir]

Thanks cyber.

[Hoolwath]

Wow, just wow....
One mistake... the quote in your siggy... there should be a "?" at the end. That makes the meaning slitly different.
And i miss my quote too. :(

[wolf rayne {D}]

this unit rocks, enough said.

[sub the hendrix]

That unit is a thing of beauty.

Way to go Mith.

[Mithrandir]

Thanks y'all. :)

[xSitchesx]

Amazing unit Mith! Man, that would be an awesome unit!

[-n66-]

This unit would make the game a lot more strategic. I like it.

[banditto]

What would happen if I shot a unit in the bush, does the bush die and I hit the unit, or just one or the other (I didnt read the whole thing :-P )

[KBHoleN1]

So if an opposing unit is in a space occupied by long grass and you attack him, the grass is destroyed and the opposing unit is damaged (if it doesn’t block).

There you go.

[astrobrat]

This unit rules! I would love to see it in the platinum game. I am platinum myself. But one question, what does the unit actually look like? Sorry if it is already answered.

[xerent]

There is one issue I want to address.

Green tiles are ones with grass on it.

Blue tiles are possible movement destinations, which is illustrated with every move you make in game.

'A' is your assassin.

'K' is the enemy knight.


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Because of the following diagram, I know there is a unit directly below me.

[Mithrandir]

Very good question xerent, and very well explained.

It has actually been a while since I looked closely at the practical ways things like that would work, so I'd have to look at the first post again. I DO know that that knight would be visible anyway because all units have a vision range of one, and the Gramenger has a vision range of I think four. But if you push the assassin back you'd have the same issue. I'll refresh my memory and post as soon as I can. It will either be in a few minutes or sometime tomorrow probably.

[Mithrandir]

There is a key practical question I’d like to address. If you place a unit with high movement in a field of grass, you may be thinking you could just find a missing unit by finding which space you can’t walk into. But that isn’t the way it would work. You CAN select a space with an enemy unit on it but your unit would simply stop when it got to that space.
So in your situation, all the spaces within four of the assassin would be blue. However, if you clicked on a place that your unit cannot ACTUALLY move to, it would get as close to it as it could and then stop. It would have to stop within a space of a concealed unit, which would mean that unit would now be within visual range and would become visible.

[xerent]

I'm a big fan of this unit, but the previous argument makes it a problem.

TAO is a game of presicion. We all get angry when we mis-click, and a unit ends up 1 tile short of where we wanted it to be. Often, because turns are the most valuable thing one can have, if your opponent gets a free turn because you messed up, then that often means the game.

This unit would not allow a player to make these intensly precise moves. This is fine. However, this unit gives the illusion that a player can make these moves that he cannot. This is not fine.

As I said before, I'm a big fan of this unit (One of my top favorites). However, if I was a judge at the time, I would not have even voted it gold worthy because of this.

[KBHoleN1]

I'm a big fan of this unit, but the previous argument makes it a problem.

TAO is a game of presicion. We all get angry when we mis-click, and a unit ends up 1 tile short of where we wanted it to be. Often, because turns are the most valuable thing one can have, if your opponent gets a free turn because you messed up, then that often means the game.

This unit would not allow a player to make these intensly precise moves. This is fine. However, this unit gives the illusion that a player can make these moves that he cannot. This is not fine.

As I said before, I'm a big fan of this unit (One of my top favorites). However, if I was a judge at the time, I would not have even voted it gold worthy because of this.
I disagree. I always imagined this aspect as part of the Gramenger's strategy. You have to think of the long grass as an obstavcle to begin with, just like the shrubs of the furgy. Then imagine that you can pass through these obstacles, at your own risk. You could simply choose to go around the long grass, avoiding running into any units that might be hiding within, or you take the chance to go through. In the situation of the assassin, you could target the space below and to the left, ensuring you walk around the long grass.

This situation wouldn't come up that often, as you usually have an idea of where a unit would be, and when a unit is not in a particular area of grass. I still love this unit.

Sidenote: I love how the gray a couple posts above said: I am platinum myself. ROFL - we got his hopes up that his gray account would be getting a new unit.

[xerent]

I'm going to change the order of your post. It will make it easier to respond to.

This situation wouldn't come up that often, as you usually have an idea of where a unit would be, and when a unit is not in a particular area of grass. I still love this unit.

It is not a question of how often a situation will come up, it is a question of if the situation comes up at all.

I disagree. I always imagined this aspect as part of the Gramenger's strategy. You have to think of the long grass as an obstavcle to begin with, just like the shrubs of the furgy.

Shrubs are an obstacle. You have to take measures to circumvent them.

Grass is not an obstacle. You do not have to take measures. Moreso, you are given the illusion that you don't need to do anything.

Then imagine that you can pass through these obstacles, at your own risk.

At your own risk = uncertainty = luck. While some luck is good, controlling unit movement is something that luck should be absent from.

Now, lets imagine the previous simulation. The Assassin cannot move straight south, but she is given the illusion that she is.

This is fine, and perfectly acceptable.

The Move command is issued, and the Assassin goes on her way. 1 tile down, she Encounters a previously hidden Knight.

This is fine, and perfectly acceptable.

The Assassin now alters her path, without your consent. The Assassin ends her movement in a tile which is undesired, but you have no control over it.

This is not fine, and unacceptable.

IF I were given the option, after encountering the knight, to spend the remainder of my movement to reach a more desired position, then it would be a nice, fair, and resonable thing to do and expect. However, as such, you have no control over such movements.

You could simply choose to go around the long grass, avoiding running into any units that might be hiding within, or you take the chance to go through. In the situation of the assassin, you could target the space below and to the left, ensuring you walk around the long grass.

That is, unless of course, the space below and to the left will result in your defeat.

[Mithrandir]

TAO is a game of presicion. We all get angry when we mis-click, and a unit ends up 1 tile short of where we wanted it to be. Often, because turns are the most valuable thing one can have, if your opponent gets a free turn because you messed up, then that often means the game.
Similar to what KB said, this is part of the advantage of the unit. The whole concept of the Gramenger is to protect your units and make it difficult for your opponent to locate them, forcing your opponent to either take risks or waste turns positioning their units so they can find your units. It isn’t synonymous at all to a misclick, as this is a part of strategy.
This unit would not allow a player to make these intensly precise moves. This is fine. However, this unit gives the illusion that a player can make these moves that he cannot. This is not fine.
To make the unit work any different way would severely compromise the usefulness of the unit, which is death to a unit that is as difficult to use as this is. What would you suggest instead? I’m not above making a minor change, even to my favorite unit, but it can’t destroy it. I don’t see how it can be any other way.
As I said before, I'm a big fan of this unit (One of my top favorites). However, if I was a judge at the time, I would not have even voted it gold worthy because of this.
I’m very disheartened to read this, as I think it is a terrible mistake. I hope you’ll continue the dialogue so I can at least have a chance to change your mind.

This next part wasn’t aimed at me but I feel like commenting on it anyway.
It is not a question of how often a situation will come up, it is a question of if the situation comes up at all.
I agree with this. IF there is a flaw, the fact that it is obscure does not make the imperfection irrelevant.
The Assassin now alters her path, without your consent. The Assassin ends her movement in a tile which is undesired, but you have no control over it.

This is not fine, and unacceptable.
Again, what is the alternative? To allow the opponent to see what tiles it can and cannot move to, resulting in the hidden unit being revealed, causing the grass to be completely irrelevant?

[xerent]

Again, what is the alternative? To allow the opponent to see what tiles it can and cannot move to, resulting in the hidden unit being revealed, causing the grass to be completely irrelevant?

The alternative is this:


What the player sees they can Move. X is the target square.

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Assassin moves two squares south, and sees the knight.

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Assassin is given an option for a second move command, with a speed of 2.

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[Man's Laughter]

Question; I did not see anything regarding this in the first post, so I figured I'd ask.

Could a large unit like the Dragon Tyrant hide in the long grass?

[Mithrandir]

Question; I did not see anything regarding this in the first post, so I figured I'd ask.

Could a large unit like the Dragon Tyrant hide in the long grass?
Yes it could. It IS large but it can fit on one square so I don't see why it couldn't.

[Man's Laughter]

Ah.

Should the Dragon Tyrant attack while in the grass, would it have any effect on any grass spaces it passes through [Seeing as a huge flaming ball of fire just might have an effect on plantlife]? And would the enemy be able to tell where the attack came from?

[xerent]

Finished editing.

[Mithrandir]

The alternative is this:


What the player sees they can Move. X is the target square.

[ ][ ][A][ ][ ][ ][ ]
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[ ][ ][K][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][X][ ][ ][ ][ ]
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Assassin moves two squares south, and sees the knight.

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[ ][ ][A][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][K][ ][ ][ ][ ]
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Assassin is given an option for a second move command, with a speed of 2.

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I'm very surprised. I wasn't expecting an alternative that fixed the problem (though my opinion of it is very minor compared to yours, it isn't something I like) without seriously messing up the usefulness of the grass.

I'm strongly leaning towards making the change. If you don't mind I'd like to sleep on it, as I don't want to react impulsively.

Thanks for the criticism and for the time you put into making well-explained arguments.

[Mithrandir]

Ah.

Should the Dragon Tyrant attack while in the grass, would it have any effect on any grass spaces it passes through [Seeing as a huge flaming ball of fire just might have an effect on plantlife]? And would the enemy be able to tell where the attack came from?
The enemy wouldn't know what direction it came from, unless it was within visual range of one of your units, though with the dragon tyrant's range there would only be so many possibilities. And the attack would only destroy grass if it directly targeted a space with grass on it, or if by the laws of LOS it hit a unit in the grass.

[Man's Laughter]

The enemy wouldn't know what direction it came from, unless it was within visual range of one of your units, though with the dragon tyrant's range there would only be so many possibilities. And the attack would only destroy grass if it directly targeted a space with grass on it, or if by the laws of LOS it hit a unit in the grass.

Clarifies everything I didn't understand.

Cool unit. :clapping2

[Sodamoeba]

That's why it got certified platinum. :D

[Mithrandir]

That's why it got certified platinum. :D
First ever to be certified platinum, and by unanimous vote when there were, I believe, 8 judges on the committee.

[Deck of Jesters]

If the DT takes off and lands in the grass, do you see it take off and land?

[Mithrandir]

If the DT takes off and lands in the grass, do you see it take off and land?
If the DT starts on a space without grass and moves to a space with grass, you can see it take off, which means seeing the general direction it's moving, but you can't see it land.

[Mithrandir]

I'm not a big fan of units being changed while in the midst of voting but considering xerent's argument holds true and it really isn't a very significant change, I'm going to make it.

Xerent's suggestion about how movement works when hidden units are in the way will be edited into the first post later on. Thanks again xerent.

[Cross Punisher]

Good ol' Mith

[steve12]

Best unit right here according to many people experienced in CAU, babyyyyyy.

[Mithrandir]

Good ol' CP...that is a quality bump. :)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Good ol' Mith

Where's my "Good ol'"?

If you're trying to make me jealous, it's working... :(

[Mithrandir]

Where's my "Good ol'"?

If you're trying to make me jealous, it's working... :(

Oh, don't be that way LT. I just bumped your Grapnel Warrior.:)

[cheeky lisa]

i love it, its a very sneaky unit. u cud hide ur unit there and the player ur against wont know which way ur unit is directed, so wen they attack they might hit ur front which is lucky for u. also i like the surprise of it, if u had a dsm in there and the attack wud come out of no wer. i loveeee it , nice 1 xx

[Brahman]

Great unit Mith. I really really really would like to see something like this in the game. If incorporated it would make the muddy a must. It could even inspire the use of pyro's in gold games for something other than bombs.

Sticky mods. Go to the drawing board with this one.

[Cheez-It]

It is an excellent idea and would add more tactic to game play. It would add a different kind of tactic which is probably what makes it so appealing, however it does not agree with me. One of the things I appreciate greatly about TAO is that both players have identical viewing of the game and how game results are based off of who plays better given identical information as the opponent.. like chess.

The gramenger would get rid of this aspect of the game (in a small way, yes, but still a way) so it does not have my support.

It seems like this piece would be very valuable in the end game like the furgy (which is kinda cool. 2 summoning pieces, each with more power in the end game). Given distance, gramenger + scout vs. [anything 'cept mud] + scout = gramenger > [anything 'cept mud]

Just figured I'd throw that out there. I'm not trying to say it's overpowered, because it isn't necessarily.

[shurtugal]

Nice idea, not many things that wouldn't do damage I would use, overall I rate it a 9.5/10 :)