Cheating Proof

[Realist]

I get private messages all the time about cheating which I just can't do anything about because there is no proof. This is a major problem because cheating is getting more and more pervasive and the statement needs to be made that cheating is absolutely wrong and will be punished. But we need proof before we can act.

When you catch a cheater in the act, get as much evidence as possible. Jump them if you can; get them to talk about their cheating, anything which would help your case. I know taking lots of screenshots is really annoying, but its better than letting cheaters go free.

Any of these constitute proof:

1. An clear admission by the cheater
2. A string of screenshots showing repeated and relatively quick games; screenshot stats show that one account keeps going up and the other keeps going down. It would be nice if you could show your computer clock in the screenshots too so we can get a sense of the time, otherwise we have to use things like lobby chat as a reference. The more shots, the better. One or two shots is hardly ever enough.

Other steps which can help:

1. Get multiple people to contact me about the cheating; although this in no way is enough by itself for proof, it does lend support.
2. Jump the account, if it surrenders quickly, take a screenshot.

If you have any other ideas which could help in the war against cheating, please post them here.

[dirka dirka]

This maybe should go in the rules post by duffy?

[Zeratul]

thing thou. a person can ajust there computer's clock to show whatever time they want. There maybe no other way of showing a timeline other then copying down the battles as they happen.

[Realist]

thing thou. a person can ajust there computer's clock to show whatever time they want. There maybe no other way of showing a timeline other then copying down the battles as they happen.

Its all about getting as overwhelming evidence as possible. Sure, you could adjust your clock if you really wanted to, but why? Just to frame someone?

[Lordofzrings]

as often as i get on, iw ill find and catch the cheaters!

[The Exile]

I get private messages all the time about cheating which I just can't do anything about because there is no proof. This is a major problem because cheating is getting more and more pervasive and the statement needs to be made that cheating is absolutely wrong and will be punished. But we need proof before we can act.

When you catch a cheater in the act, get as much evidence as possible. Jump them if you can; get them to talk about their cheating, anything which would help your case. I know taking lots of screenshots is really annoying, but its better than letting cheaters go free.

Any of these constitute proof:

1. An clear admission by the cheater
2. A string of screenshots showing repeated and relatively quick games; screenshot stats show that one account keeps going up and the other keeps going down. It would be nice if you could show your computer clock in the screenshots too so we can get a sense of the time, otherwise we have to use things like lobby chat as a reference. The more shots, the better. One or two shots is hardly ever enough.

Other steps which can help:

1. Get multiple people to contact me about the cheating; although this in no way is enough by itself for proof, it does lend support.
2. Jump the account, if it surrenders quickly, take a screenshot.

If you have any other ideas which could help in the war against cheating, please post them here.
Useful post. But the problem is you still need overwhelming proof which is often hard to get if someone cheats cunningly. For example, what if they cheat only once per day, or once every 6 hours, so that it is rare that someone will ever get more than 1 screenshot of the cheating? What if they're too clever to not fall for the attempt to make them admit it? What, in summary, if they've read these rules (or know them from previous experience) and cheat in such a way they can't get caught?

That's the problem with setting rigid rules for what is classed as cheating. I could go and raise my account by 200 points in a few hours when no one is on to take screenshots, and I'd be fine. All you can do is look at suspicious cases and take action according to whether you think they're cheating or not. You can't take an "innocent until proven beyond all doubt that they are guilty" attitude, because you will only catch idiots, and not the clever ones that end up at the top of the rankings.

[Realist]

I don't need overwhelming evidence, I just need enough evidence so I know they are a cheater.

There are no "rigid rules" either; I take every case on its own. However, one screenshot is probably not going to be enough simply because it probably won't give enough proof alone.

[Jeffery]

Yes, but you can try and do the best you can. No system will be completely fullproof though.

Multiple screenshots, within the same time period could be forged, but rarely worth the effort. Multiple screenshots from more than one player is less likely to be forgery, especially if the member is well known.

[The Exile]

I could look for every other screenshot of *TN* cheating from the past, but i really can't be bothered. And we both know the *TN* thread is why this thread is here.

I reiterate: a proven cheater is shown cheating again (or at least a high probability of it) ad nothing can be done, because he's outfoxed the system of reporting cheating.

Sad.

[Jeffery]

I 100% agree with you.

[dirka dirka]

It all comes down to reasonable doubt. If there is reasonable doubt that they are not cheating, then they won't be banned. If all reasonable doubt is eliminated, then they will be banned. Simple in concept, sure. However obviously not simple when put to the test.


Edit: Personally, I believe there is no reasonable doubt in this case. He cheats.

[The Exile]

Where is the reasonable doubt that *TN* wasn't cheating in that screenshot?

He had just played Unicliche once in a short battle. He then won another in 5 seconds. (The maximum length the battle could have been from the screenshot is about a minute, since only 2 lines of chat were made by 7 people in that time, and that includes the time spent to stat Catalyst.) Maybe Unicliche disconnected unluckily (which would no doubt be the excuse), but the chances are minimal and fall even lower when you consider that he has cheated previously, and is one of a very few people (most of whom of inactive anyway) who knows the password to Unicliche.

The evidence is 99% in favour of his cheating. But that 1% seems to enough for him to escape.

I've said it twice now, and I think every post on this thread by me is going to end this way:

Sad.

[BlackSyphon]

either that or an entirely new code to allow only one account per IP on each of the grey servers.

But...that would require coding, and the only person who codes now a days hasn't made contact with us in months.

This method is more or less to discourage cheating.

du :rolleyes:

[Realist]

And we both know the *TN* thread is why this thread is here.

You're wrong. I don't make threads that cheaply. This thread is due to the amount of PMs I am currently getting about cheating with insufficient proof. It has nothing to do with the TN thread, and I am not sure yet that there is actually insufficient proof of TN's cheating.

[dirka dirka]

Where is the reasonable doubt that *TN* wasn't cheating in that screenshot?

Exactly. There is no reasonable doubt that he was cheating. Meaning he definitly was, however thats opinion. Realist is unbiased and I can see how he does not have enough evidence to provide he cheated.

[BlackSyphon]

Do you guys look me over on purpose? Or was the actual post not worth replying too?

du :(

[The Exile]

Once you have eliminated all the other possibilities, the only remaining possibility, however improbable, must be true.
So if there is no reasonable doubt he was cheating, that means...

Where, Realist, is the reasonable doubt here? Please enlighten me.

As for the comment about this not being as a result of the *TN* thread, fine. Let this thread's first topic be *TN*.

Edit: sorry, du, I had nothing to say to your post. We all know no more coding is likely, and that's the only way to do it I believe.

[Realist]

I'm not going to talk about specific cheaters on this thread; if you'd like to talk about TN talk about it on the TN thread.

[finalfantasyt]

Speaking of proof...the pharoah, the second highest ranked gold in army, is most definitely a cheater. His stats recently went from 1750 something to 1790 in about a day. Furthermore, everyone who has played him has agreed he was no better than 1400 in terms of skill. Yet no proof has been shown of his cheating, and he remains near the top. What can be done about this?

[dirka dirka]

Speaking of proof...the pharoah, the second highest ranked gold in army, is most definitely a cheater. His stats recently went from 1750 something to 1790 in about a day. Furthermore, everyone who has played him has agreed he was no better than 1400 in terms of skill. Yet no proof has been shown of his cheating, and he remains near the top. What can be done about this?
Thats just ignorant to say that. If you are gonna call someone a cheater, make sure you know what you are talking about. If you haven't seen him cheat, don't talk. Just cause people talk doesn't mean he cheats.

[Realist]

Sorry, but Dirka Dirka is right. We need proof of some kind. Nothing can be done without it.

[finalfantasyt]

Thats just ignorant to say that. If you are gonna call someone a cheater, make sure you know what you are talking about. If you haven't seen him cheat, don't talk. Just cause people talk doesn't mean he cheats.
Oh, I've seen him cheat. I saw him play some gold multiple times (forgot the name, this was a while ago), and increase his stats. I just lacked the knowledge of how to take a screenshot at the time, and another opportunity has yet to present itself.

[Moose]

I think the bottom line here people is that an s/s is what you need.


Nothing more, nothing less.


So lets just all go eat some cheese cake!

[Realist]

I think the bottom line here people is that an s/s is what you need.

The bottom line here is that a single s/s is usually not enough. Of course, you would know this if you actually read anything here.

[Lord Shinok]

So you're saying that a single screenshot of *The Nothing* playing one of his other accounts (Catalyst or Life Sucks) isn't enough?

[The Exile]

Nope, it won't be. Plus you won't catch him doing that. He only cheats by playing accounts that people don't know are him. He's too clever to fall for that one.

I repeat, if you know the system for dealing with cheaters, you won't allow yourself to be caught with enough evidence to have your rating reset.

Hmm. I think I'm going to go and cheat my Banff account up from 1400 to 1600. Just to prove that it can be done without being caught if you're clever. I really don't care if my rating is reset as a result, but it would certainly prove my point.

[actgfin1234]

Ohhhh you're such a badass. Seriously dude, we all want to see something done about this. Be patient and something will happen. It's been dealt with before, and I'm sure something's going to be done about it this time. Don't play the martyr.

[Marstiphal^]

Just so some of the people that have not been here very long, what should we look out for in cheaters? I oftern have people join my game and then surrender straight away or after a couple of moves but wouldnt that just lower their ratings?

[dirka dirka]

Hmm. I think I'm going to go and cheat my Banff account up from 1400 to 1600. Just to prove that it can be done without being caught if you're clever. I really don't care if my rating is reset as a result, but it would certainly prove my point.

1. An clear admission by the cheater

Do I need to say much more?

[zzzaacckk]

guys just end it here... if you catch him post it... we will make a library of TN screenies and then something will be done.

[Warcow]

Just so some of the people that have not been here very long, what should we look out for in cheaters? I oftern have people join my game and then surrender straight away or after a couple of moves but wouldnt that just lower their ratings?

That isn't really cheating, some people just decide for some reason or another that they don't want to play the person they just jumped on.

Cheaters you should be looking for them playing several games in rapid succession, always winning, and frequently with the same person. Also, people that play players who are un responsive, or seem to go up a great deal in stats with out playing anyone of importance.

[Marstiphal^]

That isn't really cheating, some people just decide for some reason or another that they don't want to play the person they just jumped on.

Cheaters you should be looking for them playing several games in rapid succession, always winning, and frequently with the same person. Also, people that play players who are un responsive, or seem to go up a great deal in stats with out playing anyone of importance.


Ok Warcow, thanks for the info

[legolas77]

Well if you own an account and you request it deleted, I think mods and admins should respect our request and delete it.

[xerent]

Right. But if you give the password to a friend, or have an easily guessed password, and that friend decides to upgrade your account, that isn't the fault of the administration.

Passwords exist for a reason. Learn this.

[legolas77]

Right. But if you give the password to a friend, or have an easily guessed password, and that friend decides to upgrade your account, that isn't the fault of the administration.

Passwords exist for a reason. Learn this.
Sorry, but anyone can upgrade any gold account having the password or not having it.
and i requested the delete when i requested the cancelation, account got canceled but not deleted when i the owner told you they were using it for cheating. i dont see where the fault is mine here. almost every clan on here have a shared account.

[dirka dirka]

Sorry, but anyone can upgrade any gold account having the password or not having it.
and i requested the delete when i requested the cancelation, account got canceled but not deleted when i the owner told you they were using it for cheating. i dont see where the fault is mine here. almost every clan on here have a shared account.
Most clans have honor, and that means it wouldn't be used for cheating.

[legolas77]

Most clans have honor, and that means it wouldn't be used for cheating.
Well dirka i do have honor as well otherwise i would not ask for it to be deleted i would have easly shut up and enjoyed the 1650 stats on my clan.
but i guess being new to something does not give you the right to be listened to.

[The Exile]

Do I need to say much more?
The point is, if I had WANTED to cheat, I'm showing you how easy it would be for me. If I hadn't WANTED to be caught I wouldn't have posted that, and I'd have got away with it. That's the whole point of the exercise.

[dirka dirka]

The point is, if I had WANTED to cheat, I'm showing you how easy it would be for me. If I hadn't WANTED to be caught I wouldn't have posted that, and I'd have got away with it. That's the whole point of the exercise.
If you had wanted to cheat, you already told us you were going to, and would be banned at the first sign of trouble.

[The Exile]

You don't get it... my point is that I could quite easily go and raise my rating by 1-200 points if I actually cared about ratings, and so long as I didn't post, I wouldn't get caught because I know the rules for catching cheaters.

Anyway, I can't be bothered arguing any more. I think I was just a bit hyper the night I posted those comments :)

[dirka dirka]

You don't get it... my point is that I could quite easily go and raise my rating by 1-200 points if I actually cared about ratings, and so long as I didn't post, I wouldn't get caught because I know the rules for catching cheaters.

Anyway, I can't be bothered arguing any more. I think I was just a bit hyper the night I posted those comments :)
No, it would not be easy, you would get banned, cause you already said you might do it. We are not creating hypothetical situations where you didn't say that, it happened, and you would get caught.

[FryLock]

Um, dirka, are you being unusually dense today? He's NOT saying he's going to cheat. The guy's an honorable player, he wouldn't do that.

What he's saying is that SOMEONE who knows how cheaters are caught could easily dodge around the rules, if they kept quiet about it. He's not talking about himself. Do you honestly think that if someone was going to seriously cheat, that they'd come to the forums and announce it? :rolleyes:

He's merely showing the weakness in the system. Do wise up.

[dirka dirka]

Um, dirka, are you being unusually dense today? He's NOT saying he's going to cheat. The guy's an honorable player, he wouldn't do that.

What he's saying is that SOMEONE who knows how cheaters are caught could easily dodge around the rules, if they kept quiet about it. He's not talking about himself. Do you honestly think that if someone was going to seriously cheat, that they'd come to the forums and announce it? :rolleyes:

He's merely showing the weakness in the system. Do wise up.
I don't know if he would cheat or not. All I am saying is that it would not be easy, because if he said he is going to cheat, people are gonna watch out for it.

[FryLock]

*pounds head*

I really hope that you are doing this on purpose...

Again - he is NOT saying that HE is going to cheat. He is DEMONSTRATING that it would be easy for SOMEONE ELSE who knows the "rules" to do so. Again, I'm not aware of ANYONE so stupid as to come to the forums and declare an intention to cheat.

Come on man, you're smarter than this.

[dirka dirka]

*pounds head*

I really hope that you are doing this on purpose...

Again - he is NOT saying that HE is going to cheat. He is DEMONSTRATING that it would be easy for SOMEONE ELSE who knows the "rules" to do so. Again, I'm not aware of ANYONE so stupid as to come to the forums and declare an intention to cheat.

Come on man, you're smarter than this.
Yea, but all I am saying is that people will be watching for it, cause he said he is going to do it. Therefore it wouldn't be easy for him. He said it would be easy for him, but really it wouldn't. Then again, it could be, cause nobody really cares and all. Aside for all you people that do, but you wouldn't.

[gelshp]

Yea, but all I am saying is that people will be watching for it, cause he said he is going to do it. Therefore it wouldn't be easy for him. He said it would be easy for him, but really it wouldn't. Then again, it could be, cause nobody really cares and all. Aside for all you people that do, but you wouldn't.

DD has a point. We shold use the "mosaic of facts" to catch cheaters. If some one said they will do it, that is part of the cheating picture.

[dirka dirka]

Exactly my point, finally someone caught on. Cheating is obvious, if people are watching, its not easy to cheat.

[The Exile]

*pounds head on behalf of Fry*

DIRKA, LISTEN TO ME, AND IT WILL ALL BE VERY SIMPLE AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND.

I do not intend to cheat. Got that? However, if I wanted to, I could very easily (presuming that I hadn't made that post saying I would) and knowing the rules I would make sure I don't get caught.

How about this. If "insert any given member's name here" wanted to cheat and not get caught, all he has to do is avoid playing matches when someone who can take a screenshot is online. Then he is PERFECTLY safe from the system because there is no proof, even if his rating rises from 1000 to 1600 in 1 day. This could apply to ANY MEMBER who has read the rules.

Therein lies the problem with a rigid set of rules.

Incidentally, gelshp is exactly right. Use the mosaic of facts to catch cheaters. Erm hold on, *TN*'s rating rose by 200 in a few days, he's cheated before, and we have 1 screenshot of him cheating. But of course, that's not enough evidence! Gelshp must be wrong then. Sorry.

[dirka dirka]

*pounds head on behalf of Fry*

DIRKA, LISTEN TO ME, AND IT WILL ALL BE VERY SIMPLE AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND.

I do not intend to cheat. Got that? However, if I wanted to, I could very easily (presuming that I hadn't made that post saying I would) and knowing the rules I would make sure I don't get caught.

How about this. If "insert any given member's name here" wanted to cheat and not get caught, all he has to do is avoid playing matches when someone who can take a screenshot is online. Then he is PERFECTLY safe from the system because there is no proof, even if his rating rises from 1000 to 1600 in 1 day. This could apply to ANY MEMBER who has read the rules.

Therein lies the problem with a rigid set of rules.

Incidentally, gelshp is exactly right. Use the mosaic of facts to catch cheaters. Erm hold on, *TN*'s rating rose by 200 in a few days, he's cheated before, and we have 1 screenshot of him cheating. But of course, that's not enough evidence! Gelshp must be wrong then. Sorry.

You REALLY don't understand what I am saying... You said you might cheat, now I don't care if you intend to. People now know to watch you, so it will not be easy. Your point is that it is easy to cheat, yet its not, because its obviously if you say you are going to.

[The Exile]

Argh! Listen to me. Had I not made that post, would people have been able to catch me? No. That's the point I was trying to make.

You're either very thick, or unwilling to see my point. I hope it's the latter. That can be cured.

[dirka dirka]

Argh! Listen to me. Had I not made that post, would people have been able to catch me? No. That's the point I was trying to make.

You're either very thick, or unwilling to see my point. I hope it's the latter. That can be cured.
Nobody said I didn't see your point, I also see that it is wrong. Only because you did post saying you would cheat.

[Merdoc.]

gl doesnt really have cheaters...they only have cybers, a hell of alot of them

[Hatchet Warrior]

gl doesnt really have cheaters...they only have cybers, a hell of alot of them
thats why you ignore them in game.

[Merdoc.]

ya and more spammers, thing is, now adays there more gold spammers then grey, so you cant even chatfilter

[Realist]

ya and more spammers, thing is, now adays there more gold spammers then grey, so you cant even chatfilter

Send me screenshots. Screenshot spammers will get deleted, and pretty quickly too.

[Jeffery]

Yeah, usually within a day they get added to the deadtous list.

[Merdoc.]

you are my new found hero Realist :swoon:

[The Exile]

Nobody said I didn't see your point, I also see that it is wrong. Only because you did post saying you would cheat.
Exactly. I'm glad you at least see my point.

As for cheating? I dont see the point. Why waste good game time getting a number next to your name higher? I've made my feelings about ratings 100% clear in my other posts here.