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Mithrandir
07-03-2005, 09:01 PM
Certified Platinum Unit (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16946)

DON’T WORRY! This is NOT just a screwed up and overpowered scout.

Crossbowman

HP: 45
Armor: 16
Power: 20* (unblockable)
Blocking: 40%
Movement: 3
Recovery: 2 (practically speaking, it’s more like 4 though)
Attack Pattern: Range of 4, LOS applies. The thing that makes this unit unique is that it takes two turns to load the crossbow. So on Turn 1 you select the place you want the Crossbowman to move and/or the space you want to target and then he DOESN’T do anything yet, he simply starts to load the bolt (if he moves without attacking, he can move right away). Then your opponent has a turn, then you have your second turn, all the while the Crossbowman is loading (if the Crossbowman is attacked while he’s loading, it doesn’t delay the attack unless the Crossbowman is killed). Then after your opponent’s second turn ends, the Crossbowman finally does his attack (attacking the SQUARE that was targeted regardless of what has changed since targeting, it does NOT attack the unit that was initially on the square unless that unit didn’t move), then your third turn begins. When your third turn begins, the Crossbowman’s recovery time will be at 2. If the space the Crossbowman needs to move first to get to the target but since making the command units have gotten in the way, the attack is cancelled.

Bolt: The powerful bolt doesn’t just wound its target but partially cripples it in two ways: armor and HP. 20 damage is done to the target’s armor (which IS reducible by armor, assuming it doesn’t just hit an empty space), destroying it permanently (DOES NOT apply to stone armor and bolt damage is not reduced by stone armor). Once a unit has zero armor (not counting stone armor), this part of the attack doesn’t affect it anymore. The second part of the attack is as follows: 20 damage is done to the opponent’s HP, half of which can’t be healed.

So if the Crossbowman successfully hits a fully healed pyromancer, it will take 20 damage and its new max HP will be 20 (the armor destroying aspect of the attack would be irrelevant). So after the attack its HP would be at 10 and its max HP would be at 20.

If the Crossbowman attacked a knight two times, the first hit would reduce the knights armor to 10 (remember, the 20 is reducible by armor, so when it first attacked the knight it could only do 15 damage). The second part of the hit would give the knight 15 damage (again, reducible by the armor the unit had in the beginning of that turn), 7 of which couldn’t be healed. So after the first attack, the knight would have 10 armor 35 HP and a max HP of 43. The second time you attacked the same knight (assuming it didn’t heal), you would destroy the remaining armor and do 18 damage (reducible by the 10 armor in the beginning of the turn), 9 of which couldn’t be healed. So after the second attack, the knight would have no armor, 17 HP and a max HP of 34.

If you could use it effectively, it would be devastatingly powerful but keep in mind that essentially, the recovery is 4 and you would either have to be very lucky or very, very good at predicting your opponent’s reaction to you starting to load your crossbow. Here’s one type of scenario (I’d illustrate with screenshots but this computer is not cooperative and it isn’t really necessary; just imagine a blue scout three spaces in front of a red knight). The blue scout represents a Crossbowman, the red knight is the enemy. The Crossbowman has just started to load his Crossbow, meaning the knight must now make his move.

Now what do you do? It could be that the Crossbowman just targeted the knight but perhaps he didn’t. Perhaps he targeted a space right next to the Crossbowman, anticipating an attack. Perhaps he targeted a space where he thought the knight might retreat, such as the space six spaces in front of the Crossbowman. Hopefully you can see the psychological potential. There are a lot of units that require outwitting your opponent but this is one of a very small number where you make a decision and the success of your plan depends on whether or not your opponent is fooled or if he/she figures you out (the Mirage Ward is another with the same concept).

It is a unit with an overpowered attack, for sure. But it would take a lot of skill to use the unit effectively because you'd have to tell it what it will do (where it will move, what square it will attack and what direction it will face) two turns before it ends up doing it, giving the opponent time to potentially screw up your plans. But if you can predict your opponent's actions well enough, it could be devastating. It could also be used simply as an incredible threat to just scare your opponent off. In another situation you could put the attack on an empty space to keep an enemy scout from being able to get in the right place to hit something using LOS. Another possibility would be to use it in conjunction with the furgon and frosty to make it more likely that your opponent wouldn’t be able to escape. The possibilities are endless.

There is a saying of mine that I’ve used many times and has been quoted by others quite a few times as well, and I believe it applies to this unit well.
Any unit that is overpowered in the hands of a good player and underpowered in the hands of a bad player is a great unit.
I have yet to find an exception to this rule. I bring it up because I expect people to say that this unit is overpowered and I firmly believe it isn’t. I would say that THIS unit is potentially overpowered in the hands of a good player, utterly useless in the hands of a bad player and is therefore well-balanced, though not necessarily great (that’s another issue). I believe that when you consider the lack of versatility, very high recovery time and extreme difficulty in using it, I think if anything it’s underpowered. Please consider how difficult it would be to use practically speaking before you say it’s overpowered.

Hope you like it, let me know what you think (and I’m sorry this is such a dang long post, I didn’t think it would be this complicated).

22woger22
07-03-2005, 09:07 PM
Reserved.

Just let me read this all first :).

EDIT: Very interesting unit, and like you have said, it WOULD be overpowered in the hands of a good player and underpowered in the hands of a bad player. I like this unit very much. I like the psychological factor of this unit. You can manipulate your opponent by attacking a square that you think the unit will move on to. The armor reducing and life-max-reducing is also great. I would've thought it hugely overpowered if it didn't load its crossbow for a whole turn. But since the opponent has an opportunity to move away for 2 turns, it is great.

The crossbowman will do pretty good against a mage bomb, since the pyros and DMW have a long recovery, meaning the crossbowman can target and hit them without any fear of it moving away. It won't do good against knights because knights can move 6 spaces before the crossbowman finally attacks. This means it is good against some units and bad about some units and I think that's good.

A very fine unit Mith.

JesusCraig
07-03-2005, 09:37 PM
I like it.

Anticipatory playing is the mark of a good player, and it would be nice to have a unit which exemplifies it.

Questions/Concerns: Why do you choose to not have the unit move before the attack? Doing so takes away the very example you've chosen (the square beside the crossbowmen) since the range + movement is 7, plus it would be too hard to predict anything with such a versatile range, your making it easier to make the attack unpredictable to the opponent and taking away the opponents chance to make a good anticipation. So to reiterate why have the crossbowmen's movement and attack delayed, why not just the attack? (Unless I misunderstood the way it works)

What stops this unit from being a powerful killer to recovering mages, its a 20 damage attack which stops all mages from being healed to the point where they could withstand a knights final blow?

Personally I worry about the crossbowmen being used against stationary forces, same side turtles, to destroy armor and health, so my question is what determinants are there to simply sitting back and widdling down your opponents men from behind a stationary line? (The scout can't do this as well since his attack is blockable and healable)

Mithrandir
07-03-2005, 10:27 PM
If the unit moves before the attack, it’s easier to predict what it’s going to do and it’s already hard enough to get a hit. I figured this would make it a little better.

Yes, it would be great against mages and dragons. Personally, I don’t mind it being great against mages because I hate bombing, but that’s another topic. The reason it wouldn’t clobber them easily is the same reason that the LW rarely clobbers them so easily: the opposing player would adapt and if they’re smart, won’t give you the opportunity to just clobber the mage.

And playing too defensive would likely be ineffective considering you probably wouldn’t get any hits. If you could defend effectively and slowly cripple your opponent’s units one by one before going on the offense, that would be very effective. I think it would be very difficult to do though considering any attacking units could move around. It’s always a possibility of course but again, it would require excellent play and thus I don’t think it has high abuse potential.

Good questions.

Kyir
07-04-2005, 09:06 AM
I like it also though methinks lowering max life you got from somewhere :rolleyes: , well, regardless, it would take a skilled player to use, and Idont really see it becoming a rush unit. A antirush mabey, and almsot definatly a turtle. becasue with the furgon you can force them down a certian area of attack in where the Crossbowman, is lquite likly to hit any unit in it :good: :good:

Mithrandir
07-04-2005, 07:23 PM
I like it also though methinks lowering max life you got from somewhere
Lowering max life is a concept so general MEthinks the rolling eyes smiley is a bit much. Completely original concepts are hard to come by these days (though I think I may have one up my sleeve) [/teaser].

And I agree, I think it would be a better turtle unit than rush unit.

Zoticus
07-04-2005, 10:59 PM
It's actually kind of good. Is this your first unit idea. If it is you should start thinking about making unites more. This is my 700th post yyiippee

-Zoticus

Mithrandir
07-04-2005, 11:05 PM
lol, thanks for the encouragement. And no, this isn't my first unit. This is my seventeenth. You can see the others in my archive (link in siggy).

Wizard__99
07-08-2005, 02:46 PM
i think cross bows suck :dry:

Kyir
07-08-2005, 03:09 PM
go away nub

Mithrandir
07-08-2005, 04:33 PM
go away nub
Couldn't have said it better myself. But then again, when it comes to noob flaming, I am still Kyir's grasshopper.

Moose
07-08-2005, 04:44 PM
I HATE IT!!!!

jk ;).

Revenge
07-08-2005, 09:13 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself. But then again, when it comes to noob flaming, I am still Kyir's grasshopper.
Wizard__99 was being an idiot.
Mithrandir You is da Shiz!

Wizard__99
07-08-2005, 11:18 PM
srry if i was a little mean my bad

Cross Punisher
07-10-2005, 01:48 AM
I'm not sure I understand completely. I know that the CROSSbowman has to wait and load his bow before he attacks, but does he have to load the bow before he can actually move?

Anyway it's not something I could see myself using as it seems hard to actually use once the battle has started to heat up. I can't see myself wasting a turn to try and predict where the opponent will move. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this unit allow you to attack one unit more than once in one turn since it attacks as soon as your opponent's turn ends and then it's your turn?

Walrus
07-10-2005, 03:51 AM
simplicity is everything imho.

Krome
07-10-2005, 03:52 AM
Hey there Walrus.

Mithrandir
07-10-2005, 07:14 AM
If the Crossbowman moves but doesn’t attack, he moves right away. If he moves and attacks, he does neither at first.
Anyway it's not something I could see myself using as it seems hard to actually use once the battle has started to heat up.
Ah, but do you use the furgy and frosty? I would think this would be a great unit when combined with those two. If you target a muddy, scout, or wisp that just moved and frosty it right after they recover, you’re guaranteed a hit, and one heck of a hit.
I can't see myself wasting a turn to try and predict where the opponent will move.
I’m not sure you understand the unit. You get to attack with something every turn, with this unit there’s just question about whether or not it’ll hit.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this unit allow you to attack one unit more than once in one turn since it attacks as soon as your opponent's turn ends and then it's your turn?
Essentially you’d get to attack a unit twice in a row, in the sense that that’s the way it would look on the game but it is not in a sense that you have a particular advantage because of that. I’d say it’d be a lot easier to hit it initially instead of having to wait. Of course, if the unit is already wounded and you hit it with the Crossbowman, you may be able to finish it off in your following turn with a scout hit or something while if it had already been wounded it would have retreated.
I prefer the non-simple units, personally.
We’re very different people and different designers. I prefer to swing for the fences.

Walrus
07-10-2005, 11:03 AM
there is a degree of complexity that is good. too little and the unit will just be a clone of an existing unit or boring, but too much complexity and it becomes unfeasible.

look at the units in TAO already, most of those are nowhere near as complex as most of those you come up with (and admittedly most of mine as well).

Mithrandir
07-10-2005, 11:05 AM
perhaphs, but when you look at the existing units, none of them are anywhere near as complex as most of the units you churn out (as well as quite a high proportion of mine).
I'm well aware and I take that into account when I design units. Their loss, not mine. ;)

And I think "churn out" is an inaccurate depiction of what I do, considering the amount of time and effort I put into my units. Don't forget I only have 19 units altogether, about half of which are much more simplistic.
there is a degree of complexity that is good. too little and the unit will just be a clone of an existing unit or boring, but too much complexity and it becomes unfeasible.

look at the units in TAO already, most of those are nowhere near as complex as most of those you come up with (and admittedly most of mine as well).
Again, I think the game would improve with more interesting units but I do both. I design my units very much with the tactical ramifications of the game in mind.

Mike...
07-11-2005, 08:49 PM
i love the idea its :cool:

AlabamaBoy
01-19-2006, 02:31 PM
mithrandir i love your units, they make up for ( and then some) for all the noob posts in CAU i love this in particular, if they make it i will make it a big part of my turt setup. I love this unit. Hastening Golem too ( caffine golem ) thats funny.

scb
01-19-2006, 03:26 PM
I think lowering max life started with Haze Golem.

Executioner
01-19-2006, 04:07 PM
I think lowering max life started with Haze Golem.

ROFL. How can someone be so ignorant AND stupid? :rolleyes:

scb
01-19-2006, 05:22 PM
Oh, it didn't? I visited that thread and people were calling it original, and that was its only ability...

Cheez-It
05-12-2008, 02:10 PM
The crossbowman can utterly cripple an attacking scout or DT without using much skill. I like the psychological game it presents with feistier units. The whole predicting thing, or protecting. The option of aiming at a spot you don't want your opponent to land on is a nice tactic it would provide (whether that be the only free spot for a scout to make a shot, or the side of a unit that you wanna make your opponent pay a price for attacking with a knight). Relatively hard to kill, but it must be with its essential 4 turn recovery.

Possibly overpowered, but I can't quite tell. Apparently it isn't since it's platinum?

It can put a scout to 0 armor, 22 hp, 31 max hp without fail without the aid of frosty or wisp as long as xbowman starts loading immediately after the scout moves + attacks. The scout would be as good as a dead unit. Follow up with a side hitting knight on the turn the xbowman attacks for a 2-hit 70% kill with no healing being able to stop it.

Set doesn't really matter. Just using this as an example. X = xbowman


C . . . . . .
. F . . . . . . .
. . X . . . . . . . .
. . . . . S . . . . .
S K K D K . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . .
S K K D K . . . . . .
. . . . . S . . . . .
. . W . . . . . . . .
. F . . . . . . .
C . . . . . .


Could move the xbowman forward 2 and target any of the 5 on the front line. Move the knight off of that space next turn attacking scout or something. They would be helpless to evade the shot. Or move xbowman forward 1 space and target one of the 2 knights or the DT. Then next turn move the knight to get out of the way of the bolt. Opponent still hopeless in evading.

Btw that brings a question. If the xbowman's movement becomes blocked then the attack is canceled. Are you allowed to declare its movement while its path is blocked? Then it would be canceled if the path wasn't clear in time? Or would you not be allowed to declare a movement unless the path was clear?

I spent so much time tangent thinking I don't know what to say next. Why aren't there extensive discussions on the pieces? Unless there are, but not on the piece's thread?

A-99
05-12-2008, 02:38 PM
The crossbowman is over 2 years old.

Boreal
05-12-2008, 02:56 PM
He's new...don't rip him apart yet. Save that for later. :wink2:

mino
05-12-2008, 02:59 PM
May 2006 is new? :confused:

Cheez-It
05-12-2008, 04:25 PM
im new to the forums. i made the forum account in 2006 but didnt post until 2008. I LOVE this pile of units i found to frolic around in :D It's been keeping me too occupied to play the game.

Maybe if people decided to have unit discussions on the unit's thread instead of somewhere else then I would have more information to view and see that there is no useful input to provide. That isn't the case, so the info on the thread is what I see and add to it.

The Anti
05-12-2008, 05:20 PM
Lol I love looking at 2 and 3 year old threads.

Hunt ^^
05-13-2008, 01:08 AM
So if this thing hits a cleric the cleric is pernamently in scout range?
Don't think I need to go on, like it though.

Cheez-It
05-19-2008, 09:04 AM
So if this thing hits a cleric the cleric is pernamently in scout range?
Don't think I need to go on, like it though.

Somehow I don't see this unit hitting a cleric very easily.. 3 movement + 4 range. 1 turn to move. 1 turn to recover. 1 turn to move + load. 1 turn to load more.. then a shooting turn. That is only if the xbowman can manage to get to a space that sees the opponent's cleric. By then the bowman is dead or the opponent could move a piece in the way to take the shot.. if the cleric wasn't able to move on its own.

If a player can pass that gauntlet and probably lose a piece in the process to cripple the cleric, then maybe the cleric should be crippled. Also, after a scout hits a cleric then it is in scout range for 4-7 turns which might as well be forever, and the cleric is a ton easier to hit with the scout.

bloodreign
05-19-2008, 07:53 PM
Lol I love looking at 2 and 3 year old threads.

Me too, well at least the 2-3 year old part.

Strong j/k (no pedo)

Lieutenant
05-19-2008, 09:23 PM
I think someone has been playing Age of Empires too much lately. :p

jordan5000
05-22-2008, 06:57 PM
that sure sounded like a more powerful scout....

legacy67
05-23-2008, 08:18 PM
Read carefully. People always focus on minute details without looking at the big strategic picture. This is one of the great units from one of the CAU greats. If we are gonna necro here, lets at least mke the discussion more than an offhand dismissal that overlooks the big stuff.

Nice work Cheez, saved me the trouble.

Something new coming once I play enough to get the mechanics back.

Uniden.
05-24-2008, 01:53 AM
meh doesn't sound too bad, but only if they made it :(