No GA games...?

[BaxVarlet]

Okay, this seems to be getting more and more popular among golds lately, and i'm tired of stating my point each time i ask for a freestyle game, and someone calls be a noob for saying no when they say no GA.

First of all, when i ask for a freestyle game...i want it to be freestyle, which means you can use any setup, and any units you want...including GA, so if i'm asking for a freestyle game, don't answer: "no GA?" cause it then it is no longer a freestyle game.

I don't see why you people have a determination to ignore an aspect of a game, namely the Golem Ambusher.

Secondly, yes, most people use the GA to hit the cleric; however, that is about it. Despite maybe another hit or two, after the cleric is dead, the GA is practically useless...thus exchanging their cleric for a GA.

I hear the argument...that it is cheap to use a GA because of this, but the truth is, if both people use a GA, then there is nothing cheap about it.

Oh...but it is lucky if you have the GA placed in the right place to kill the cleric. But if you think about it, the other person has exactly the same chance to do the same, and if you don't have it in the right place, you're out of luck.

Okay, i can understand that people prefer to play without a GA because it takes more 'skill' but this is just as faulty reason as saying turtling takes more skill than rushing. This is total crap. People try to explain there there is more luck in turtling, but the only luck involved in the game is blocking, and that is present in both rushing and turtling. The rest is a skillful setup, and it is not 'lucky' if your setup is vulnerable to your opponents, it is your setup that is faulty.

So the next time someone asks me for a no GA game, i shall simply reply, "fine, as long as we don't use clerics either" for as far as i'm concerned, it takes more 'skill' to play without a cleric, than it is with.

The GA has many shortcomings when it comes to being a unit... it can only long range, and it can't move well, and in respect to other units, he's not that powerful.

This of course is just my opinion, i'm not trying to make you non-GAers change your mind, i'm not that arrogant, i'm just trying to state my opinion on the matter, in case you are thinking of asking me for a no-GA game.

the only no-GA game i play is turtles.

-Bax and zoma

[Office_Shredder]

Bax, the reason you need to be lucky to hit the cleric with the GA is because there is a 50/50 chance of the GA on the right side... and it takes no skill to kill a cleric with a GA, you just shoot the thing

And no, it does not take more skill to play with neither player using a cleric... in fact, it just comes down to whose knights block more most of the time

[Terps rock]

I love threads in my honor...

[Office_Shredder]

how is this in your honor?

[Terps rock]

Argument in lobby...

[Megabyte]

Bax, the reason you need to be lucky to hit the cleric with the GA is because there is a 50/50 chance of the GA on the right side... and it takes no skill to kill a cleric with a GA, you just shoot the thing

And no, it does not take more skill to play with neither player using a cleric... in fact, it just comes down to whose knights block more most of the time

Terps, get over yourself, you weren't named, and it makes you look a bit silly to glorify yourself. OS, sorry to pick on yah, its not personal or even directly related to yah, just something thats been grating on me....


I hate phrases where people say "it takes no skill to do...blah blah blah".
I've heard it all, takes no skill to use a furgon, takes no skill to bomb, takes no skill to rush, takes no skill to use the GA....

Whatever, to a certain extent, the game does have luck. Luck of the draw for turns, luck for blocks, luck for how the setups line against each other.

However, all that means crap if you don't know what your doing. I can be in the perfect position to kill 3 units, and not know it, so what good is the luck?

Just shut up about the "no skill" crap. Take it like everyone else, and play the game.

I have always, and will always, do open challenges. I don't know what my opponent will use, and he won't know what I do. I've yet to have a single damn person call me a noob or a wuss for doing it. I think its the height of hypocrisy that I've never been given crap for the way I do that, but someone else who does the EXACT same thing is.

I don't hold it against others who don't want to play GA games. Thats their call. Its obvious that the GA made the game not fun for many people. If your not having fun, why play, right? So you should always play to have fun, if that means setting match standards, and you trust your opponents to follow them, go for it. I do HATE that damn GA. I think it presents a bad concept into TAO for a variety of reasons. But i've been over that many times in other threads, so won't dwell on it here. It also doesn't change my stance on the open matches.

Since I don't hold it against others for playing how they want, I expect the same for myself and others. Don't give shit just because people have different play preferences, and don't give shit because someone doesn't share your like/dislike for parts of the game.


On a side note, major props to Bax for standing up for how he wants to play with so little experience in the community. It can be an intimidating place here, and I appreciate your ability to come out like this and explain yourself in an intelligent manner.

[Sir Vivian]

Well it ain't that hard to say something online in truth Megabyte. Afterall, you'll never meet these people in real life and if any choose to flame him it's them wasting their time, not him :P

I would not say the Golem ~Ambusher is useless though after killing a cleric - its just the fact people place it at the front where it's going to die - thats when it becomes useless. It could otherwise be used extremly effectively with 2 scouts or even with a furgon.

I think that was in a sense it's intended purpose but oh how people do like to abuse the system.

The thing with the GA - it's extremly hard to prevent it killing your cleric :S at least a bomb could be stopped for a short moment in time; I know whenever facing a gold who has a GA I just think; k, my cleric is dead - so the damage before it's too late.

Now note, this is not a flame at this Bax guy.

I don't see why you people have a determination to ignore an aspect of a game, namely the Golem Ambusher.
People dislike the GA because it brings an aspect of the game into play that the bomb originally pushed - the GA simply goes beyond that border.


if you don't have it in the right place, you're out of luck.
To me that seems neglegent of the system in truth. That only highlights the point people make about 'A pyro/witch bomb needing to be in the right place'.


Okay, i can understand that people prefer to play without a GA because it takes more 'skill' but this is just as faulty reason as saying turtling takes more skill than rushing. This is total crap. People try to explain there there is more luck in turtling, but the only luck involved in the game is blocking, and that is present in both rushing and turtling. The rest is a skillful setup, and it is not 'lucky' if your setup is vulnerable to your opponents, it is your setup that is faulty.
I hate to admit this because I dislike turtling but to an effect more skill is needed in a turtle. One wrong choice can really turn the tables in a turtle game - it's rare one wrong move in a rush can do such the same. You'll also find in a rush if the enemy blocks most your attacks, you leave yourself very open. In a turtle, even if your enemy blocks most your attacks you can still pull back and defend. Luck is more orientated around the rushing side of things. Of course i'm a huge hater of luck, especially when 50% of this game is luck =/


So the next time someone asks me for a no GA game, i shall simply reply, "fine, as long as we don't use clerics either" for as far as i'm concerned, it takes more 'skill' to play without a cleric, than it is with.
Like O_S said - then it comes down to blocking and nothing more. Feeling Lucky Punk? come to mind.


The GA has many shortcomings when it comes to being a unit... it can only long range, and it can't move well, and in respect to other units, he's not that powerful.
Long ass range, a pretty solid attack power and high health make the GA actually a strong unit. If placed into a formation correctly it can be an absolute bugger to remove - at least they didn't make the attack unblockable like people were moaning for. The fact it removes LOS is bad enough tbh.

And finally...
This of course is just my opinion, i'm not trying to make you non-GAers change your mind, i'm not that arrogant, i'm just trying to state my opinion on the matter, in case you are thinking of asking me for a no-GA game.
In all honesty and no need to be rude here but the majority of people (like 97%) of the forum will not care about whether you play or don't play GA games.

The system doesn't care about you but rather your money - if the GA is causing a rift between people that damages the fun factor. Fun factor drops which means in theory the money factor should drop.

But it's not at the moment, people are just fighting around the GA (or rather without it) so, and I don't mean this harshly, even if you don't care about the GA and others do - your post (as well as mine ;) ) mean nothing in retrospec.

Nice discussion though.

[The Exile]

Freestyle means FREEstyle. As in anything goes. Put limitations on and it's an arranged match, no matter what the restriction is.

Why all these threads about Ambushers? They're not even that good.

[Terps rock]

I do play any type of game, It is when someone ask for a game, I try and get rid of as much of the luck as possible, Mainly being on busher on the correct side. So I will ask and plead for a turtle or no ga no dsm game, but if all falls I will rush them.

In me playing mainly turtles and no ga no dsm games, My stats have turned around, and gone up.

Look at Fry's Ambuhser statistics, I mean with someone almost same skill level that could make the difference, which should not be the case in a strategy game, for I would never consider rock, paper, scissors, to be a strategy game.

[BaxVarlet]

Like i said, i'm not trying to stop people from having no GA matches, I just wanted to explain why I will probably not be participating in any of them (except for my occasional turtle matches).

And Terps, you're being an egotistical ass as always. Yeah, I made this post in response to you and Dark7, for being short-sided in the lobby, but it is hardly an isolated incident. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

I don't have any disrespect towards people who play without a GA, i just don't want to be disrespected by people because I use one.

-Bax and zoma

[Terps rock]

Zoma just go both ways, Play with both depending on what the opponent wants. That is what I do, and It normally means making a new set, and having a new strat, keeping the game...fun.

[Office_Shredder]

Just shut up about the "no skill" crap. Take it like everyone else, and play the game.

Hey, I do take it like everyone else... I never ask for no GA games. I'm merely pointing out that I have seen NO ONE, I mean NO ONE fail to kill my cleric with a cleric killing setup on the right side. Now maybe I just don't try hard enough, but it does seem awfully suspicious.

The way the game worked before the GA was that there was an efficient counter for everything in the game.... now there really isn't... and saying "live with it," or "just learn not to need your cleric" (which I've done both of) isn't a way of countering the cleric kill, just a way of giving up and acknowleding there is no way of dealing with it.

[Rogue_Wolf]

Its not that the GA is a bad unit, its just the central peice in one of the most common forms: the Cleric Killing Rush. Cleric Killers rely on lucky placement and first turn over skill. It had taken the phrase, "I'd rather be lucky than good," to a whole new level.

Its just not enjoyable to play against. I don't like to lose to them, and neither do other players. Hell, even players who use Cleric Killers get mad when they lose to another Cleric Killer. For example, I was playing a gold on Army a while back. I asked for a No GA game, and he refuses. I then agree to a GA game, and set-up my Cleric Kill Rush. We get in game, I have my GA on the right side, and he doesn't. I end up beating him by about 7 units, and he gets mad because he lost since he didn't get his GA on my side(He would have lost anyway, but not by 7 units). I then tell him "And now you see why I hate these game."

You attack the source of your problem, which for these players are these rushes. The source is the key unit: the Golem Ambusher. Take away the Golem Ambuser, and you take away the Cleric Killing Rush.

The title of your thread should be "No Cleric Killer Rush Games...?"

-Rogue_Wolf

[Dragoen Link]

If you ask for a game freestyle and the other person asks for a no ga game,you can rufuse it you know..lol But there are still a lot of people out there that still play with the ga,i know that i chose not to but thats my choice.I just like having my cleric live for more than two turns..thats all,and with the GA+muddy or wisp...makes that imposible and not really fun(my opinion),but theres nothing *noobish* about using it tho.Just different people have different opinions.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Listen, I have learned not to care about the GA.

Beyond the first 5 moves against my anti, it is absolutely worthless against me, if it isn't already dead.

It's the DSM I'm worried about--Unfortunately, all of my formations have one fatal weakness, and that's bombs. Every formation has at least one break in the form where you could walk in, kill the Cleric, and severely injure at LEAST 1 other unit. My anti even moreso: Taking the frontal break in the unit formation, you bypass all the unit defense set for Line of Sight, Mud Quake, Poison Wisp, and other threats, and kill the Cleric, take heavy damage to the Frost Golem, and bring the Dragon to within 3 hits of anything.

So when I ask for a game, I inquire about whether or not DSMs are allowed. If they say yes, I concede the point and start. At least I know what's coming beforehand.

[Office_Shredder]

What's all the fuss with DSMs? Just put a couple guys on the front line and they can't reach your cleric... it's really not that tough

[Tagger]

well put :cool:

[steve12]

Yo, I say.... Make the field a little bigger so the darn AMbusher can't REACH the cleric? Eh? Also, there is too much power in the game to be used for close combat in my opinion.. The units need more room to fight it out, skill-wise.. :rolleyes:

[BaxVarlet]

You're talking about a whole new game steve, with that huge overhaul.

I agree with LT, my setups are rather weak to bombs as well, however, i've never turned down a match when someone asks if they can use a DSM.

I think freestyle games take the most skill. Because it is the type of game that relies the most on the setup you use. You can rush, anti, bomb, or turtle, and you never know what the other person is going to do. ( You can usually assume they wont turtle...but still)

And by the difinition of freestyle, you can use any setup, and any unit, so GA-games...aka freestyle games, in my opinion take the most skill.

-Bax and zoma

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Zoma, I have played you in two no GA games and both games have been very difficult. They're insanely hard sometimes to the point of mental exhaustion, and I love it that way. I know you're a skilled player, both in turtles and rushing. But I cannot see a player in the same light if they use a GA in regards to pure skill.

It's like playing a chanty as a gray with 3 knights, every move is calculated and controlled with a certain thought of where every unit will go next and how to direct them. I never know what my opponent's first move will be.

Therefore returning mystery to the game.

A GA rush?

Wisp or mudquake the cleric, GA shot, snipe, mudquake, retreat, rush in.

I think I was the first on Great Lakes to advocate no GA games to the point where I will not play against an ambusher if it is not for a tryout. I ask for no GA games, and if they say GA, I simply don't play them. I'm not going to argue about it unless they prompt me to.

I'll come out directly and say it: It requires much more skill to beat me if you're not using a GA. If you honestly beat me in a no GA game, I tip my proverbial hat to you. If you beat me using a GA, big deal.

You could use the exact same first moves on 20 players and gain the same result everytime no matter what they do. I find that highly disgusting in a game of tactics.

[Noda]

well, freestyle is more of a type of game than a specific way of playing.

personaly ive never had a problem going against ga's, the fact is though that they do take no skill.

ive played with them and i am yet to spend more than 3 seconds thinking hmmm where should i move my ga after hitting the cleric? oh yeh..ill keep it right there so theres absolutely no way he can save the cleric.

ga for cleric is an awful trade...simple as that. thats y u need to make sure u take there muddy and scout as weel*or wisp*

saying freestyle has the most amount of skill is simply a way of letting people know that uve never played a grey same side turtle, or a stupid rules two person furgon game(stupid turtle rules being no wisp,dsm,ga and stone needs to be on back row)

taking out the ga isnt about going against the "free"style aspect of the freestyle game...its about putting in the option of being strategic.

Anywase as I said, i say no ga becouse frankly, i dont think its fun having them in a game. cause its either the esiest game in the world if there on the wrong side, or ur cleric is dead but they have no skill if its on urs.

Point - if u cant rush without a GA, then u need to practice. cause as u said ga's are only helpful in the killing of clericss, and if u cant flank an anti, or penetrate a rush...then u suck...straight up.

...dont know where my point of this thread went, just i think the ga is the stupidest aspect that this game has ever created.

- Legit Penguin

[Terps rock]

You're talking about a whole new game steve, with that huge overhaul.

I agree with LT, my setups are rather weak to bombs as well, however, i've never turned down a match when someone asks if they can use a DSM.

I think freestyle games take the most skill. Because it is the type of game that relies the most on the setup you use. You can rush, anti, bomb, or turtle, and you never know what the other person is going to do. ( You can usually assume they wont turtle...but still)

And by the difinition of freestyle, you can use any setup, and any unit, so GA-games...aka freestyle games, in my opinion take the most skill.

-Bax and zoma
That is not skill! rock, paper, scissors, is not a skillful game. The skil is involved, when you move units around, try and force them into a tight spot, where the game hits the climax, Everyone is scrambling to maintain balance, speed, and power. That is skill my friend not, YES MY BUSHY IS ON YOUR CLERIC AND YOUR'S ISN'T!

[BaxVarlet]

Hmm, i do recollect you being the first to advocate no GA games...and for this...you must die...heh.

Yeah, there was a time when i was working on new setups that didn't involve GA's, but it wasn't worth the effort at the time. And i also remember playing you once or twice, and getting my ass handed to me.

However, after logging on today, with 15 golds on, i asked, Are any of you golds there? waited 15 secs...and no one said anything. It seems it's harder and harder to get games, without people turning down games due to whether or not people use the GA or not.

But back on topic.

Yes... a GA rush usually ends in the cleric dying within the first few turns of the game, but this is true to both players. Thus, eliminating the "unfairness" of the GA. and the rest of the game, is skill. It depends on where the rest of your units are placed...what units you sacrificed to kill their cleric, and how much skill you have.


Edit so i don't double post:

Terps, you keep saying the same thing over and over again, and it's still making you look like a short sided idiot. Try reading what others say, and discuss that. Don't just over-genralize eveyone's point and biasly state that any game invloving a GA is unskilled...

-Bax and zoma

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

People used to be awesome without a GA. Allstar, rantzu1 and CRX were all well-known rushers. I would like to see a new king after all this time.

[Terps rock]

I did not say that any game with a busher is unskilled, I READ your post and COMMENTED on the fact that you said it is skillful to pick the right formation, and hope looks good verse theres. Formations should not be as big a deal in the game as overall skill of manuvering pieces is. That is the point of playing GA games, not that they lower the skill directly, more indirectly, by making the formation a bigger part, it has to be cut somewhere, and it is skill.

[BaxVarlet]

You still are over-generalizing the whole point...with your rock paper scissor anolgy...there are countless different ways to set up your people, and yes, making your setup is a large part of the skill in the game...GA or no GA.

And if you, or anyone, think that once you kill a cleric with your GA that the game is over...you are sadly mistaken, there is still plenty of game left to be played...which again...takes skill...

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Bax, how many different GA rushes are there really?

There's the standard one side 3 knight 2 scout frostie cleric, with the other side equipped with a wisp, muddie and GA.

The muddie and GA, the GA and wisp, philly's rush, etc. They all blend together.

[BaxVarlet]

Everyone uses them differently though.

And as I said in this first post in this thread, I am not trying to persuade people to start using GA's again, i just wanted to defend my point of view.

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

For example:

I'm doing a gold tryout as we speak, and since it's a tryout I don't impose my no GA rule. He got the wrong side, and needless to say it's not going well for him because without that cleric kill he is severely underpowed and his wisp died in 2 consecutive hits.

I'm 2 turns into this game, and already I can predict most of the game with a yawn. Which is why I'm posting in-game, this is damn boring already.

[Megabyte]

That is not skill! rock, paper, scissors, is not a skillful game. The skil is involved, when you move units around, try and force them into a tight spot, where the game hits the climax, Everyone is scrambling to maintain balance, speed, and power. That is skill my friend not, YES MY BUSHY IS ON YOUR CLERIC AND YOUR'S ISN'T!


*sigh*
sounds like noob trash talk...sorry, but it does.
Just because you can't handle it, don't trash it.

I really felt like writing a looong rant, but I'll keep it shorter. It just sounds like the same stuff ppl used to scream about bombs.

All I know is that I respected the bombs as a tactic with its own advantages, and I respect the GA with its ones too. I may prefer my spreads to a GA rush, and may really not like what the GA does for the game, but I won't trash it simply because I have a hard time fighting it.

Screaming "no skill" to me just says you don't properly respec the unit/tactic. Thats a weakness to me, and one I'll try to exploit in the future ;)

[Sir Vivian]

Hmmm... a friend let me play on their gold account for a game. A 900 odd jumped me and I was confident, i'm not that bad a Gold player - average if anything.

Then I blinked :/

He had first turn with an ambusher, wisp and mud golem sitting on the middle. Now for me, I always try and set my formation up in the middle yet they could easily hit left or right without much help.

He had other rushing units (all units on front line) which I won't argue about, that's an old tactic. But well with those 3 units and the first turn I lost my cleric and recieved a fair bit amount of damage.

I've a feeling if I went first, he would of been the one in said pain - mine wasn't a bomb or a rush, although not a turtle.

Since when did TAO get back into that feeling that First Turn = Win because it provides a bleeding hard game to face if you need to deal with 155 HP and you don't even get a crack at it at the start of the game.

Now in fairness I didn't say 'No this, no that' but I suppose consideirng my old gaming days, expected a decent fight and all fairness around :/ After asking why he choose those units - "Because I wanted to win" ...

Well I suppose he has a point but even still - has the game become completly driven by points? Has it lost it's want for skill and tactics. I won't argue either way if a GA, Wisp and Muddie combo up front is skillful, i'm sure you can all gather what I feel.

But are you people saying you that this is alright as long as you get your points? Or are you actually looking for a proper game?

(Note: I was a frequent rusher when gold - I had an old skool rush; they made the game fun and still kept that tactical excitment without the game finishing after 3 minutes =/)

[Sir Vivian]

Note: (Yep double post)

I'm not vindicating the unit; the Golem Ambusher - just rather how it's currently used in terms of 'rushing?'

I think in a turtle or similar formation, it would be interesting - placed near the back :P not front XD

But to start off as a double advantage gainer isn't quite what I would perceive as tactics anymore.

[Office_Shredder]

guys! there's a really easy way to stop the GA from killing your cleric! Just put it on the front line!

:p

[Sir Vivian]

Rofl :P

With a large' I'm not a cleric' sign hanging from his neck?

[Sir Vivian]

4 Gold games - 4 GA, Muddie + Wisp front line rushes...

[CRX687]

Okay, this seems to be getting more and more popular among golds lately, and i'm tired of stating my point each time i ask for a freestyle game, and someone calls be a noob for saying no when they say no GA.

First of all, when i ask for a freestyle game...i want it to be freestyle, which means you can use any setup, and any units you want...including GA, so if i'm asking for a freestyle game, don't answer: "no GA?" cause it then it is no longer a freestyle game.

I don't see why you people have a determination to ignore an aspect of a game, namely the Golem Ambusher.

Secondly, yes, most people use the GA to hit the cleric; however, that is about it. Despite maybe another hit or two, after the cleric is dead, the GA is practically useless...thus exchanging their cleric for a GA.

I hear the argument...that it is cheap to use a GA because of this, but the truth is, if both people use a GA, then there is nothing cheap about it.

Oh...but it is lucky if you have the GA placed in the right place to kill the cleric. But if you think about it, the other person has exactly the same chance to do the same, and if you don't have it in the right place, you're out of luck.

Okay, i can understand that people prefer to play without a GA because it takes more 'skill' but this is just as faulty reason as saying turtling takes more skill than rushing. This is total crap. People try to explain there there is more luck in turtling, but the only luck involved in the game is blocking, and that is present in both rushing and turtling. The rest is a skillful setup, and it is not 'lucky' if your setup is vulnerable to your opponents, it is your setup that is faulty.

So the next time someone asks me for a no GA game, i shall simply reply, "fine, as long as we don't use clerics either" for as far as i'm concerned, it takes more 'skill' to play without a cleric, than it is with.

The GA has many shortcomings when it comes to being a unit... it can only long range, and it can't move well, and in respect to other units, he's not that powerful.

This of course is just my opinion, i'm not trying to make you non-GAers change your mind, i'm not that arrogant, i'm just trying to state my opinion on the matter, in case you are thinking of asking me for a no-GA game.

the only no-GA game i play is turtles.

-Bax and zoma


I'm 100% with ya on this. Like it or not, Busher is a part of TAO now... You can either accept the game as is or go play something else. I've said it before, I'll say it again, this argument about wanting games based on tactics and skill is all BS... because luck is a big part of this game, and if you dont' like that, chess is a much better option.

And if you guys equate cleric loss with losing, then seriously, you're not as good as you think you are. Get over it and learn to play without the cleric.

Busher isn't even that powerful in the first place. every time I hear ppl complain about it, i also hear the word muddy or wisp in the same sentence... why is it that no one tries to ban these units? They're MUCH more powerful than busher as both can do massive damage WHILE killing the cleric. The only way to stop mud is filling up every space within 3 squares of cleric... and the only way to stop wisp is filling up all squares within 2 spaces.

DKR, you're not the first to use busher defensively... you can just go on legends to see it all the time... that, and monk and I have been using it as an anti-rush weapon for a while now.

[Terps rock]

But, The fact that it Can be more fun, when you play a game with no GA, keeping your cleric alive for a lot more turns.

CRX you can stop the mud, for if it lands anywhere near you can kill it heal, and nothing can kill your cleric, You could have same side mud,wisp, and 2 scouts, and it is possible to hold it off, but replace the scouts with busher and you cannot.

I do play freestyle and mega, I am not trying to talk like that, but I can't help it. He said something so stupid, "freestyle is more skill, because you have to pick the right setup, rush, bomb, anti" That is why I went into a noobish rant. I thought It would be the only way he could understand it, because that is the level he was writing at.

The GA gives people a chance, to beat people they shouldn't, but now can.

[Sir Vivian]

the main problem with GA, mud and wisp all together in a rush is they can get inside your formation - this causes major problems when they can also affect groups of units.

I believe it was Twelve who stated the wisp was a bad unit - the golem ambusher enhances them both to a level unneeded for the game.

50% of this game -was- Luck when I played but now it seems that's risen a great deal more. That's not a good thing =/

Plus it's not the single cleric loss thats bad - it's the damage the other units do as well on top of the cleric loss. I found in 2 of the 4 GA rushes I faced, half my units ended up being damaged, does this mean I need to spread my units all other the place (which is an idea but not one conceivable nowadays) or just go a front line rush against them myself?

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

CRX, you cannot be telling me that the ambusher is a tactically smart unit.

Look at the gray game, every unit, every damage possibility is perfectly calculated so that it is all balanced. Except for the recent addition of the assassin bomb, but that too is blockable. Just keep the assassin above 5hp.

The golems have a perfect kill combination, knight DT knight. Most units do as well. Scout shot on a witch followed by a knight slash. But the golem ambusher is an anomoly, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the pieces to the puzzle.

It has the range of a scout, but 20 more hp. It ignores LoS, rendering ever single known strategy for guarding a cleric or any other vital unit completely useless except for a barrier ward, which is also practically useless in a gold game. The unit does not make sense. It cannot be countered, which makes it an unbalanced unit. Every single unit in the game has a critical flaw that prevents it from becoming too powerful. Imagine a DSM with 60hp. Imagine all the crying and moaning about the new age of bombs. That is what the golem ambusher is.

I'm arrogant enough to say that I have more skill than other golds because I don't use a golem ambusher to get my cleric kills, I have to outplay my opponent. CRX, you used to be a respected old-school rusher. To hear you be such an adamant supporter of the unit that destroyed your school of rushing is disappointing.

[CRX687]

CRX, you cannot be telling me that the ambusher is a tactically smart unit.

Look at the gray game, every unit, every damage possibility is perfectly calculated so that it is all balanced. Except for the recent addition of the assassin bomb, but that too is blockable. Just keep the assassin above 5hp.

The golems have a perfect kill combination, knight DT knight. Most units do as well. Scout shot on a witch followed by a knight slash. But the golem ambusher is an anomoly, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the pieces to the puzzle.

It has the range of a scout, but 20 more hp. It ignores LoS, rendering ever single known strategy for guarding a cleric or any other vital unit completely useless except for a barrier ward, which is also practically useless in a gold game. The unit does not make sense. It cannot be countered, which makes it an unbalanced unit. Every single unit in the game has a critical flaw that prevents it from becoming too powerful. Imagine a DSM with 60hp. Imagine all the crying and moaning about the new age of bombs. That is what the golem ambusher is.

I'm arrogant enough to say that I have more skill than other golds because I don't use a golem ambusher to get my cleric kills, I have to outplay my opponent. CRX, you used to be a respected old-school rusher. To hear you be such an adamant supporter of the unit that destroyed your school of rushing is disappointing.


There is a startegy to counter the busher... and that's simply making it's strength useless. Learn to play without a cleric, or with 2 clerics, you'll find that the game is just as interesting.

Yes, I rush old school, and I still rarely use a busher. But truth is, I defend ALL units. I've always allowed my opponents to use whatever they want on me, because I believe my inability to deal with it is MY problem, not theres.

Do you want to hear something disappointing? I go GL today looking for a game...

"dark7, freestyle game?"
"okay, but no GA or DSM, i find them cheep"
"Apoc, game?"
"okay, old school freestyle, no GA, wisp, or DSM"

I ask, what's happening to this game?

I don't like going aginst Lwards or frosties... do I just tell everyone they can't use those units because I "find them cheep"?

[Office_Shredder]

Tell them that old school freestyle means DSM at the very least... I mean, that unit came out in 2003

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

I have no problems playing a DSM, I dislike them but they are adequately balanced. My problem with the GA is that as a unit it does not make sense, so I have eliminated it from the game for me.

There will always be those that push things further. I see excluding wisps and DSMs entirely excessive. Although I do prefer old-school turtle games because I like the nostalgia.

[CRX687]

I think I'll just only play no Lward and not frosty games now :cool:

I mean, if they're positioned luckily, you just can't stop them from getting those kills!

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Both the lightning ward and the frostie are counterable units however. A muddie, a wisp and scouts can all individually overpower a frostie and furgon combination.

The lightning ward has a 4 turn recovery and an immobile range of three.

[CRX687]

Both the lightning ward and the frostie are counterable units however. A muddie, a wisp and scouts can all individually overpower a frostie and furgon combination.

The lightning ward has a 4 turn recovery and an immobile range of three.


The frosty can also single handedly overpower any other unit.

and a scout, a knight, a mud, a pyro, a witch, a frost, and a wisp can all single handedly overpower a busher :p

The busher cannot attack anything close to is, has a very low movement of 2, and doesnt' block or absorb damage. As well as a 3 turn recovery.

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

If you compare any unit on a one on one basis they are all overpowered in some aspect. :rolleyes:

[Terps rock]

I prefer to play without GA's and DSM's because It is like a grey game with new units. That is quite a fun thing to do. I don't do it because they are cheap, but for something else to do. I also love to turtle, because It is so different.

I do rush, but rushing to me is less fun.

[CRX687]

If you compare any unit on a one on one basis they are all overpowered in some aspect. :rolleyes:

Isn't that what you did to say frosty and lward weren't overpowered :rolleyes:

plus ur exactly right... and I hate it when you compare the busher with cleric on a one-on-one basis.

Lward owns witch/dsm... so you don't put mages near the front, or don't use them.
frosty owns knights... so you use scouts
busher owns cleric... so you learn to kill the busher, use a furgon, or learn to live without ur cleric.

[Tephros]

ok ok as a rusher i am, maybe not of the greatest... in this case i must say average... i used to have a GA in my set, but im with ya ppl... GA merely pourpose is killing the cleric, and to many noob golds have it just to win a match, no skill involved... but i agree in crx point... as a vet goldz and good ones u must learn to play with cleric... i don't use GA anymore and in most of all my games ppl take down my cleric in the first or second move, but u can do a lot of damage in his ground while his trytin to take down ur cleric, or even u can try to take down his cleric 2... i don't like the GA too much but it's a part of the game now... so play with a nre strat or just GA urself... the point is.. u can make the ppl to stop using it, and if u want to... u wont get to much games either so is up by ur choice...

[CRX687]

Of course, i never said it's wrong to ask for no GA games... but ANY kind of manipulation of how the game is played means you're not truly good at TAO... but only your version of it.

[Caspa]

Of course, i never said it's wrong to ask for no GA games... but ANY kind of manipulation of how the game is played means you're not truly good at TAO... but only your version of it.

i ask freestyle game and never put a restriction on my games, i know i could say no ga/dsm or w/e but i mean why should i, with time you got to learn different ways of countering units, plus you learn and see things from different point of views and angles.

[Tephros]

i ask freestyle game and never put a restriction on my games, i know i could say no ga/dsm or w/e but i mean why should i, with time you got to learn different ways of countering units, plus you learn and see things from different point of views and angles.

that's exactly how i think, i couldn't be more agree on that

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

You're twisting my words around and ignoring all the points I've made.

The Golem Ambusher has cheapened the game immensely and contributed majorly to the horrible stat inflation we have today.

Whatever though. Like I said before, I spit on any gold that has to use a GA to kill a cleric and always will. No respect for them.

[Tephros]

You're twisting my words around and ignoring all the points I've made.

The Golem Ambusher has cheapened the game immensely and contributed majorly to the horrible stat inflation we have today.

Whatever though. Like I said before, I spit on any gold that has to use a GA to kill a cleric and always will. No respect for them.

THe GA has done that, i agree, and i agree 2 in the fact that any gold who uses a GA just to kill a cleric is skilless and cheap... but u should know that some ppl uses a GA in another kind of strategy man... im just makin clear that point,

[Noda]

ok, id like to make the point, that there is no usefull way of having the GA except to kill a cleric.

in a turtle putting it anywhere but besides to break same side focus or cleric would mean putting it in the back.

the slow moving aspect of this unit would make attacking impossible for the ga at its current possition, it o could not flank, and if u tried to use it defensivly with furgon not only would u get crushed by anyone that knows how to flank, but u wouldnt be able to wall units due to no blocking and lack of movement, and its inability to attack close range.

this means that it only has one purpose, and that is to kill clerics. its like those high powered guns that can kill from a mile and a half away and can take down an aircraft, ur not allowed to use them hunting, and ur not allowed to have them in public. So whuy do they sell them?

same thing, im just trying to keep the streets of TAO cleen from stupid stuff, im not goingto go buy one of these guns, becouse i dont want to support what they stand for...i dont want people using the GA becouse of what they stand for, again, i dont even think there good cleric kill or not, just gey


and CRX if u really want a no lward or frosty match...just ask

also, no cleric is fun, but it really doenst compare to a normal setup

double cleric does pwn, but most cleric kills can kill a cleric on either side or middle. i mean all double cleric does for me is allow me to take out one more unit as they kill them, i mean they still die within 4 turns

[bobdagangsta]

btw Tephros ur right i always ask for a no ga game sometimes no ga/dsm if i can.

[Sir Vivian]

I don't know - I've used the Ga for a game with 2 scouts. All 3 units armoured and it provided a suitable firebase from my turtle. It's good for that pumling fire upon the enemy or just another option. It depends on the defensive formation - of course I have other units I would choose over it.

[Noda]

u can pummle all u want from ur lil turtle...wont helkp u too much when u have 6 offensive units touching ur turtle and a muddy pounding every other turn.

also, that is true of anti's...i tried for a very long time to use a ga in my anti instaid of mud, lets just say not working is an understatement

[Caspa]

well if you kno your oppenent is gonna kill your cleric in the first two turn then make your set up a lure so that when they do attack your cleric you start giving them heavy damage on the ones rushing you in.

[CRX687]

u can pummle all u want from ur lil turtle...wont helkp u too much when u have 6 offensive units touching ur turtle and a muddy pounding every other turn.

also, that is true of anti's...i tried for a very long time to use a ga in my anti instaid of mud, lets just say not working is an understatement

ah, of course... when something doesn't work for you, it's obviously your opponent's fault for using the units he use... :rolleyes:

[Caspa]

ah, of course... when something doesn't work for you, it's obviously your opponent's fault for using that units he use... :rolleyes:

Yureka! you got it on the Money

[Noda]

crx...either ur very slow, or ur a very bad reader. I wasnt aware that u were either, so mabey u just have ur mind so set on ur belief that ur not willing to read anything so i could quate myself from the post before the last one"like where i described my argument" or i could even just proleng this blind discution.

or who knows...mabey ull sit down and actually read what i wrote.

cause seriusly, thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard someone say in responce to something. I mean its obvious that u didnt read the posts that i was reffering too, and that u didnt pay attention to the primary premis that i directed my entire argument off of.

so yeh, due to me having respect for your clan, and from how people have spoken of u ill give u the benifet of the doubt of not being illiterate or too blatanly ignorant

[Megabyte]

Well I DID read it, and I think its a load of BS. Its all based off the first statement, that the GA has no other uses, which is both highly opinionated, and to my own opinion, completely wrong.

Everything else after that seems like a bunch of insults towards Seed, the GA, chest thumping, and saying how you don't care for ideas put forth to beat out GA rushes.

The unit's range alone and the fact it ignores LOS gives it innumerable uses. Who cares that it doesn't move too fast or has a pretty long wait, it can fire from a ways away, does more damage than a scout, and has 60 hp to make it so you really have to whack at it to kill it.

Yes, the main use of the unit by most players out there is to just kill the cleric. Does that mean its the only use? Hell no, only a fool would assume it has just one possible purpose. Myself, I've beaten out a number of opposite corner setups with my GA ones. That golem has some serious advantages and I've made great use of them against many of my opponents units. There hav been many a game where people just ignore it because they don't understand its threat, then get pummeled long range from it late in a game.

Go ahead an make an argument, but why throw in all the chest thumping and noob trash talk with it? It just makes it so intelligent people won't take you seriously. THATS probably why CRX didn't bother to read the whole thing.

[Noda]

*edited out seed comment* yeh that was just me being angry, def not nescessary.

so uhh besides the teqnique of having ur ga front line in a turtle and hoping a noob doesnt see it in its hiding place of the bushes, what other uses do u have for it? im all ears

[Tephros]

by now this tread is pointless... some ppl love GA's, some ppl luvs them, i agree with Megabyte, just depends on the use of the unit, learn to live with that... this is a neverending battle against the GA's and ppl who hate it well... there's nothing to do about it, learn to live with that like all of us had

[Brettrules12]

by now this tread is pointless... some ppl love GA's, some ppl luvs them, i agree with Megabyte, just depends on the use of the unit, learn to live with that... this is a neverending battle against the GA's and ppl who hate it well... there's nothing to do about it, learn to live with that like all of us had
*gives best post award*

[bludhoundz]

What's all the fuss with DSMs? Just put a couple guys on the front line and they can't reach your cleric... it's really not that tough
If someone asked me for a no dsm in a rush game I'd put in a dsm and say 'we're playing with dsms or not playing'

The dsm is a perfectly viable unit with with weaknesses and whatnot. It is not instant cleric kill if put on the right side of the board - it can be blocked.

[Terps rock]

Just play a game without dsm and GA, It is like playing a grey game, with gold units.

[Tephros]

*gives best post award*

speaking of wich... u should have it with post's like that one, not to mention the good all stupid treads u had open... :dry:

[The Exile]

If someone asked me for a no dsm in a rush game I'd put in a dsm and say 'we're playing with dsms or not playing'

The dsm is a perfectly viable unit with with weaknesses and whatnot. It is not instant cleric kill if put on the right side of the board - it can be blocked.
Exactly. People only ask for no DSM games because, surprisingly, their formation is weak to DSMs. :rolleyes:

If your formation has a weakness, don't cop out of it by refusing to allow your opponent to use that weakness. Just learn to live with the weakness, or even better, fix it. :)

[Sir Vivian]

Ah ha, but how can you fix the GA from killing your cleric unless you don't put it in.

Surely then it turns into 'who can block' the most?

(Unless you put Cleric on the front row :P)

[Caspa]

Ah ha, but how can you fix the GA from killing your cleric unless you don't put it in.

Surely then it turns into 'who can block' the most?

(Unless you put Cleric on the front row :P)

quite easy make your form so it doesn't have to rely on the cleric so much, and try to inflict as much damage as you can.

Got to learn how to lure.

[bludhoundz]

Just play a game without dsm and GA, It is like playing a grey game, with gold units.

Ah yes, and the dsm and GA aren't gold units?

And why do you restrict the dsm? If you can't beat it with your current formy, that formation just isn't good enough to survive the tough weather of TAO I guess. Anyway, the dsm is just a pumped pyro - how is it not like a grey game ? ;) (As if playing with all the other gold units would make it a grey game: the wisp frosty and furgon just put the game into an extra level of depth).

Yeah, if we can't win against them, lets ban them!

Honestly, the GA isn't my favorite unit, but I play with it, and I don't ask for my opponent to not use it in a freestyle game. Theres a reason its called freestyle - as said before, you are free to do anything with the units you want. Trying to restrict this is like trying to deny that the GA exists.

I sure would rather not play against cleric killing rushes, but its not like the GA does it singlehandedly. The person sets up their formation for the GA to do this. They also put scouts wisps and muds on the front row just to kill the cleric. Why blame the GA for killing the cleric? I'm perfectly capable of killing someone's cleric without a GA, as I am sure most of the people who play this game do.

Note : Only the first three paragraphs/lines are to Terps.

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Blud, wtf is a GA? Never heard of it. :D

[bludhoundz]

Eh, thats what I call the ambusher. Its quicker to type :D

[Terps rock]

It's not that I don't mind playing against a DSM, Without it and the GA, it opens up a new set of forms, that makes corner forms like with grey's the best forms.

[†Lancer†]

I love TAO Forums arguments. :cool: In my opnion. The GA is down right annoying. Thats all. Thank you for your time.


-Lancer

[Balls of Death]

in accordance to lancer's post
agreed

[Swift]

If getting two of your opponents units isn't enough in exchange for your cleric, then isn't it the cleric that is overpowered?

[2xfire]

If getting two of your opponents units isn't enough in exchange for your cleric, then isn't it the cleric that is overpowered?
:huh: omg u have figured it out!!!!! no cleric games from now on guys :rolleyes:

[Office_Shredder]

swift, the cleric plays a unique role in TAO... everything else deals damage, the cleric heals damage.

So it's only overpowered because nothing can even try to take its place (muddies, scouts, pyros, GAs, all can do each others jobs if a different one dies... and you have a lot of knights and the dragon to do each others jobs also).

It's like trading an assassin and a witch for the scout in a grey game... all of a sudden your opponent can't attack... except in this case all of a sudden you can't defend.

Not necessarily the end of the game, but it hurts.

[Swift]

True of course. Though I still think this whole thing is blown way out of proportion :dry:

[Office_Shredder]

oh, absolutely. And trading a cleric for two units generally wins the game for me... I mean, it's really not that hard to kill most units, whether or not they get healed.... the healing simply soaks up precious time that could be spent attacking most of the time.

[allstarGL]

If you really are that upset about losing your cleric to a ga use two clerics and that ga will be spinnin not knowing what to do lol.

[2xfire]

no no no guys, swift had the right idea by just takeing the cleric out of the game. ;)

nah, honestly i agree 100% with office on this one

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

You little bastard necromancers...

This thread was good and dead

[BaxVarlet]

I agree, let this topic die...eventhough it is my topic.

It's all personal preferences, and I've worked it out on my end. I now play GA games, as long as they are turtles. So as much as you guys continue to argue, it's still gonna be up to each individual to decide how they want to handle it.

-Bax and zoma

[Balls of Death]

ya bax just need 2 get back in AL can i get an invite

[The Exile]

It's like trading an assassin and a witch for the scout in a grey game... all of a sudden your opponent can't attack... except in this case all of a sudden you can't defend.
Hold on, here's an idea...

DON'T DEFEND THEN!

Just call me King of Tactics. :cool:

[mantis33]

Ok, I know a lot of people complain about the GA. But out of everyone that complains and say they don't like it, how many of you use it in your setup anyway??? LOL, i thought so!!!! :bigsmile:

[Jeffery]

Mantis, you're an idiot.

Why would someone who complains about the GA being an overpowered unit put it in their setup? People who wish to play no GA games do so because they feel the GA is used primarily as a cleric kill n00b rush. If they are objecting to this tactic, why would they use it themselves?

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

I checked for black text on that one.

Although it doesn't make any sense, a lot of anti-GA players use GAs because they feel they can't compete otherwise. And then they wipe my spit out of their eye.

[Balls of Death]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Daemon Bloodmaw again.

[Dark7]

guys i say we replace the Ga with my Golem Cannon Shooter. Check the Cau forums for it :bigsmile:

[Balls of Death]

that thread has been closed for good reason. THANK YOU HUGH

[Match Strike]

I just lost a no- GA game to ryan57 on GL.

Now, I've been playing pretty crappy lately, but that's making excuses. It was the most fun in a gold game I've had in a while, regardless.

[Dragoen Link]

Ryan isnt a bad player ether tho....;)

[Balls of Death]

havnt played him :(