Poaching Golds

[StreetGang]

Here is the problem.

If a Gold account goes grey, for even a short period of time (as many do even for changing credit cards in Paypal), **anyone** can upgrade the account and get their paypal a Subscription ID attached to the account record. This gives the "Poacher" the power to request pwd changes.

This was recently done to BullCat0 and *Dark Lord* on Armageddon. Its a real problem as BullCat0 was accessed by the poacher and his almost 1700 stats were used to boost several accounts in a different clan.

In fact, in BullCat's case, the Poacher actually opened a ticket and said I need my pwd and TAO help desk emailed BullCat0's pwd to the Poacher.

In Dark Lord's case, he opened a ticket to get the account deleted on Army and to get the Poacher removed from the account. He was told the ticket was "RESOLVED" and that they could do nothing because the Poacher has a subscription ID.


Realist has a good idea for fixing this. He said no one should be able to upgrade a grey account unless they provide a valid password.

[Jeffery]

SG, the admins and mods obviously know there is this issue already.

Stop being over dramatic. and let them handle the issue.

[monkus]

Speaking of which, my account on GL will be going gray for a period of a few days next week, so please, no one send $5 to TAO with the username "monkus" on GL to be upgraded, for that would be a horrible thing to do.
and a complete waste of your money

[StreetGang]

Dark Lord had yet another ticket rejected. I suggest TAO refund him the 1 year subscription for the account and charge it to Phate. Also refund Dark Lord something for the time he invested in the account as well.

Why is this such an issue?

To me this is a game. But when you ask ppl for money and you provide a service that is more than just a game, its a product they expect to work.

Their account is their identify. It should not be taken by anyone unless they willingly give it to them.

[Hoolwath]

Speaking of which, my account on GL will be going gray for a period of a few days next week, so please, no one send $5 to TAO with the username "monkus" on GL to be upgraded, for that would be a horrible thing to do.
and a complete waste of your money

Its a good thing you dont talk about it on suitable places... Congrats :)

[wolf-boy]

This reminds me of that double gold, and then you can get their password on rev.

[bobdagangsta]

i think something like that happened to al leaders on rev but im not sure.

[Jeffery]

The trick used on Rev was handled and stopped.

Just like this trick will be. People overeacting and demanding anything doesn;t help any.

[bobdagangsta]

yea jeff u got a good point

[Megabyte]

Dark Lord had yet another ticket rejected. I suggest TAO refund him the 1 year subscription for the account and charge it to Phate. Also refund Dark Lord something for the time he invested in the account as well.

Why is this such an issue?

To me this is a game. But when you ask ppl for money and you provide a service that is more than just a game, its a product they expect to work.

Their account is their identify. It should not be taken by anyone unless they willingly give it to them.


Ha, cute, what's better is that I believe you actually mean it.

The accounts were cancelled golds right? So the service your goin on about was no longer being done because they were no longer paying. Not a very reasonable argument, no?

The moment their accounts went grey they lost all rights to the names and accounts beyond that a normal grey player has.

Now, I'll admit, I don't like the stats thing, but that's a social issue with TAO, and I fail to see how the FORMER owners of the accounts should be suffering such a hardship in this, which seems to be what your emphasizing. If these people are having such a huge identity crisis over the loss of an account name, they need therapy, not their account back.

Why should anything be given to the former account holders? Tell them to make a new account. Its the business world. When you stopped paying, you stopped recieving benefits, no matter if you have 750 or 1700 rank. That stats sharing thing is a problem, but a problem for TAO, not the former account holders.

[wolf-boy]

Well said, I totally agree. If you go grey, you're relinquishing everything, whether you plan to regold or whatever.

[StreetGang]

Tell ya what then, how about TAO just open a eBay store for canceled golds? winner of the bidding owns the account? Stupid - yes. Fair - yes. At least everyone gets a fair shot at owning someone else's work. See my point? There is no fairness in this poaching thing.

As I said before, the account could possibly be a gold that for *whatever* reason, is grey temporarily.

I think everyone's account went grey at one point or another. Then they are vulnerable. So we aren't just talking about the case where someone cancels a gold.

But even if we were, isn't Dark Lord allowed to use his account in revs like the 3000 other canceled golds in there? Because I have a solution for that too... just delete canceled golds from Revs the same way you wipe greys. ooo great idea! [on a serious note]at least it would be fair to everyone[/on a serious note]

the other solution would be to reset every grey as it is upgraded to gold... at least that way some loser wouldn't benefit from a years worth of someone else's hard work... that is a partial fix

you see accepting this as just part of the system is really unacceptable because it really ruins the identity and personality of players in TAOm and that is a big part of what make this community fun. I get all jazzed up when I see Juggernaut online (we miss him on Banff btw), but wait, it just might be Phate poaching Jugg's account... is it Juggs? ...or is it Phate? who knows? Rediculous if stuff like that is allowed. Turn the whole game upside down. TAO is filled with lamers and imitators who will endeavour to exploit this.

How about the tourney winners? Prime targets there. See one go grey -poach it get a double frosty or a shrub avatar. w00t!!! Then you can pretend to be somebody. ugh

[Jeffery]

Tell ya what then, how about TAO just open a eBay store for canceled golds? winner of the bidding owns the account? Stupid - yes. Fair - yes. At least everyone gets a fair shot at owning someone else's work. See my point? There is no fairness in this poaching thing.

As I said before, the account could possibly be a gold that for *whatever* reason, is grey temporarily.

I think everyone's account went grey at one point or another. Then they are vulnerable. So we aren't just talking about the case where someone cancles a gold.

But even if we were, isn't Dark Lord allowed to use his account in revs like the 3000 other canceld golds in there? Because I have a solution for that too... just delete canceled golds from Revs the same way you wipe greys. ooo great idea! [on a serious note]at least it would be fair to everyone[/on a serious note]

the other solution would be to reset every grey as it is upgraded to gold... at least that way some loser wouldn't benefit from a years worth of someone else's hard work... that is a partial fix

you see accepting this as just part of the system is really unacceptable because it really ruins the identity and personality of players in TAOm and that is a big part of what make this community fun. I get all jazzed up when I see Juggernaut online (we miss him on Banff btw), but wait, it just might be Phate poaching Jugg's account... is it Juggs? ...or is it Phate? who knows? Rediculous if stuff like that is allowed. Turn the whole game upside down. TAO is filled with lamers and imitators who will endeavour to exploit this.

How about the tourney winners? Prime targets there. See one go grey -poach it get a double frosty or a shrub avatar. w00t!!! Then you can pretend to be somebody. ugh
Actually, deleted golds ARE supposed to be wiped on Rev.

Only those gold on December 31st 2004 are supposed to be permagold there.

And I agree the poaching is not a good thing. But you making an ass of yourself about it won't fix it. There was once a loophole to hijack accounts using the system. That loophole was fixed.
This is another loophole, and the admins will also handle it.

Ranting and raving gets you nothing but make the admins not give a damn about jackasses like yourself.

[Cliche]

Couldnt of put it better myself.

[StreetGang]

Jeff: I know you seem to know more than most ppl, you have connections or something. But how are WE supossed to just take your word for it? The admins, mods, whoever, really need to make some of this info public. A simple statement would do.

"We are aware of a problem involving Gold accounts being upgraded by ppl who have no rights to the accounts. We understand how upsetting it may be for some to have their account identity taken by a stranger. We are investigating a way to remedy the situation."

Until I see something like that, I'll continue to open this for discussion. But don't take that as me saying I don't believe you. I'm sure your getting some good scoop there. I'm just balancing hopeful hearsay against fellow clanmate's account being compromised and choose to give the later its due weight in my response.

>The help ticket you have submitted to the Tactics Arena Online Help system
>has been resolved.
>
>Sorry, no.
>
>Your ticket reference number is #2344
>
>This email has been generated automatically, please do not reply.

[Cliche]

Not sure if this is a good idea, but, what if whenever a gold was turned grey, they would not be able to gold back up until the account is wiped, and if the account is being degolded for a little while, ask a mod to hold it for you and he could like ask the person if they were the ones that golded it or not, if not, dont gold it and send back the ticket. Wouldnt that work?

[bobdagangsta]

pretty much all the time u can't really say anything as good as jeff can.

[Cliche]

Yeah, im not trying to match jeff, cuz i know it will never happen, but im just throwing an idea out there.

[bobdagangsta]

same here i will never match jeff or even come close.

[Cliche]

Not many people have the skill nor will to do that, ok, lets stop sucking up now.

[Hoolwath]

Pft! I outgrown him waaaaaayyy back. :cool:

[Jeffery]

Says the man with my influence in his signature twice.

[Hoolwath]

Doesn't mean I can't use cha. :cool:

Twice?

[Cliche]

Thrice?

[Megabyte]

Jeff: I know you seem to know more than most ppl, you have connections or something. But how are WE supossed to just take your word for it? The admins, mods, whoever, really need to make some of this info public. A simple statement would do.

"We are aware of a problem involving Gold accounts being upgraded by ppl who have no rights to the accounts. We understand how upsetting it may be for some to have their account identity taken by a stranger. We are investigating a way to remedy the situation."

Until I see something like that, I'll continue to open this for discussion. But don't take that as me saying I don't believe you. I'm sure your getting some good scoop there. I'm just balancing hopeful hearsay against fellow clanmate's account being compromised and choose to give the later its due weight in my response.


What exactly are you trying to take Jeff's word at? Who is this we? I havn't heard you bring up any argument, show any bug, or really do anything except make a giant ars of yourself.

You're not presenting a discussion, as you have no point to it other than "I don't like it and it's not fair."

The term "rebel without a clue" comes to mind. Your crusading without a reason.

The stats thing is an obvious TAO problem, but its not a bug. Nor have you brought any discussion on it, and nobody has said it isn't a problem. So...whom exactly are you discussing this against?

Seems most people just ridicule the specialty you seem to take these 2 accounts. Get over it. They're not special people who will be granted privelages above what others have recieved in the past just because you whine about it louder and more persistantly than others did.

[Rogue_Wolf]

If a gold wants to down-grade, and don't want to take the chance of being "poached," they need to do it a day before the wipe. Then, don't log in until after the wipe happens. If someone can't see that you're grey, then they won't know to upgrade your name.

StreetGang, you're not trying to discuss this, you're whining. And, you just let every nimrod on TAO know how to "poach" gold accounts.

Yeah, its sucks Phate's being an asshole. Yeah, its unfair to Bullcat and *Dark Lord* that their stats are going down the drain. Yeah, you wouldn't give a damn about this if Bullcat0 and *Dark Lord* didn't add an ass-load of points to JW's ranking. But, the TAO staff has realized this is a problem, and are trying to address it. You making a big deal about this with a worthless thread isn't going to do crap.

-Rogue_Wolf

[monkus]

Heh, I paid $5 for an account, and sent in a ticket to change the password. That chum monkus never saw it coming. Goddamn noob.

[ryan56]

If a gold wants to down-grade, and don't want to take the chance of being "poached," they need to do it a day before the wipe. Then, don't log in until after the wipe happens. If someone can't see that you're grey, then they won't know to upgrade your name.
-Rogue_Wolf
Actually, i think once you cancel your account, it stays gold until the date of your last payment, So cancelling the day before the wipe wont really help, i cancelled my GL acccount, and it just recently went grey, it was gold for about 3 weeks after i cancelled it.

[Rogue_Wolf]

Actually, i think once you cancel your account, it stays gold until the date of your last payment, So cancelling the day before the wipe wont really help, i cancelled my GL acccount, and it just recently went grey, it was gold for about 3 weeks after i cancelled it.

True, but my point was to cancel your account before the wipe. The less time between your account downgrading and the server wipes means there's a lesser chance someone will take your name. That was what I was trying to get at. Though you're right, it really depends on your situation.

-Rogue_Wolf

[StreetGang]

How reliable are the wipe schedules? Recently I think they have been reliable... but a few months ago, we were waiting weeks for the wipe to come at any moment.

[bobdagangsta]

when i started the game the wipe took for ever good for me :bigsmile:

[bullcat0]

When you cancel a gold account it is not De Golded unti a payment is missed. So if that payment day is say, the day after the wipe. Your account would be gold and then you would have a whole month+ for you to be grey. Your accounts are not de golded the moment you cancel subscription.

Edit: poop, Ryan posted something like this. I didnt see it :(

[StreetGang]

MegaByteMe: This is a new hybrid, its half-bug half-suggestion and half-beating the tree trunk to see if any apples fall. So I could have put this in "suggestions" but then someone I actually respect would criticise me for it ;)

For the record, I think this is a problem for all TAO and I posted because we already attempted to fix Dark Lord's account through the help-desk twice now.

[bullcat0]

Saying that we are trying to help DL because of JW ranks. Well that is just stupid. Because *Dark Lord* wants to let his account wipe as he started a new account. So dont go off on shit you have no clue.

[StreetGang]

You tell'em BC! pshhh this isn't about the points at all!

I'll be on Banff and I ask that someone play me so I can obtain obscene stats levels in a shameless attempt to whore clan points for Jokers Wild. Thanks in advance!

[Rogue_Wolf]

Saying that we are trying to help DL because of JW ranks. Well that is just stupid. Because *Dark Lord* wants to let his account wipe as he started a new account. So dont go off on shit you have no clue.

StreetGang wouldn't care about this as much if you and Dark Lord weren't in his clan, but thats obvious. I also think this wouldn't be paid as much attention to if Bullcat and Dark Lord were lowly ranked. The fact that they were both 1600+, and two of the highest ranked members of Jokers Wild on Army, alteast at one time, is why there's more than one thread about this on the forums.

This "discussion" would be over already if Bullcat0 and *Dark Lord* were two clanless golds with ratings of 900.

-Rogue_Wolf

[Megabyte]

While I can respect that he wants his account back, here's how the line of action went (from what you've described)

1. DL's account de-golded (meaning for whatever reason, the payments stopped and his time was up)
2. His account wasn't wiped yet
3. Somebody else golded the account again
4. DL tries to get his account back

Now, it blows for him, but that's what can happen. The best thing I would suggest to to brow beat and beat down whomever took the account in game.
The other guy beat him back to the punch though, so its not DL's account anymore to take back. Again, it blows for him...but what are you expecting TAO to do? He bought the account name, so its his now.

I still don't understand what the purpose here is. If its about the stats, well, you said the Mod's are aware of it, and have their own ideas already. What more can you expect in the immediate future? I mean, really, how many updates to the game have you seen in the last year? Kinda unrealistic to expect one to suddenly be bammed out for this.

edit: As an FYI, this isn't the first time I've heard of accounts getting bought like that when they de-golded. So, I'm kinda inclinced to agree with Rogue, as I've never heard such whining over this issue.

[bobdagangsta]

yea rogue wolf all gangbang really cares about is his clan.

[ryan56]

yea rogue wolf all gangbang really cares about is his clan.


Umm, duh. Our Clan and Clan members are our first priority. BC and DL are great players, and great people. When something like this happens, we arent gonna just sita round and feel bad, we are gonna try to do something. The fact that they had high stats, had nothing to do with that, if they are an asset to JW, then we will do whatever we can do fix the problem. Bob, i have one question for ya... are you Squidiot? seriously, you guys act exactly alike, we give you millions of chances, you fail, you get booted, then all of a sudden its, JW SUCKS..wtf.

[Megabyte]

Question, would a single JW person have made this sort of thread if it wasn't JW player who had this happen to them? I'd say no, since it has happened before and I've never seen a thread about it. So don't throw an excuse that you're lookin to help the community solve an issue, you're looking to help your clanmates, end of story.

Unfortunately, JW isn't TAO, its just one part of a significantly larger community. You won't get special treatment just for whining about it. I'm sure the community as a whole is glad that this sort of problem has been brought to light, but that's about as far as it should go. DL and Bullcat will likely have to start over. It sucks, but many of us have done it, so I'm sure they'll live. As was said by Street, it's just a game :)

Its not that this isn't a possible problem, or that you shouldn't care about your clanmates, but that you should be realistic about it. It often appears that some of the players in larger clans feel that special attention or privelages should be bestowed upon them. The reality is those people need a good trouting and a dose of reality.

If Street had simply emphasized the need to implement some sort of solution for this sort of exploit, there would be little to argue with or discuss. His emphasis on the specific case is where the controversy comes in. It also damages the chances of anyone taking the problem seriously because the person who presented it was doing it for apparently biassed reasons.

[StreetGang]

MegaByteMe: I have no valid arguement against what you said. I am totally, completely biased. In fact, were the shoe on the other foot, I would laugh at the Poached victim and lay all the blame at his feet for being stupid enough to cancel his account and complain when someone else stole it from him.

It is only because this happened to a member of JW that I am upset by this. Had this happened to you, I would post only to express my amusement at your demise with 4 simple letters: "Haha"

You have revealed the naked truth of my entire arguement. I am a stat whore. Nothing really matters to me unless it helps me in my shameless attempt to gain clan rankings points. This is due to my psychological need to fulfill the empty holes and failures of my miserable real-life existance with artifical success in TAO. Your arguement was so powerful, I find my self unable to resist your infaliable logic. I am checking into a rehab center designed specifically for recovering clan whores.

[R G]

I don't think you are helping your argument Streetgang by telling everyone what most already know....RG

[Buster]

I think RG is right.

[Shaman]

http://box-family.com/images/website/whaambulance-ani.gif

[bullcat0]

I feel this is an appropriate bump because it may finally get the mods attention.
This exact thing just happend to someone who I dont really get along with too well. (grim_reaper). But I just feel that something should really be done about people hi-jacking TAO accounts.

[Buster]

yes GR need to have his acc. deleted or reset or somthing.

[R G]

Here's the funny thing about the whole thing...

No one is ever gonna respect the account grim_reaper....SSTEO may think that they got the account legitmately but everyone knows differently.

The bad thing about it is you will never see the account grim_reaper AKA drakonis AKA stat hunter play the account, cause he knows that his stats will be raped cause everyone hates to see someone not earn something that they have be it from boosting, grey jumping or from Poaching.

WOOT!!!

[x-useme]

yeah SSTEO are being cheating whores like that.

Even though, I have never had an account go grey, it would really suck if someone poached my account. I know TAO is in the process of finding a solution, but Realist's idea is easy and doesn't require any change.

[Mitosis]

TBK has a lot of explaining to do now that he is in possession of the p/w to grim's account. To keep the password changed is wrong. Putting him in SSTEO is wrong.

[R G]

And now it is revealed that Silent Fear's account was also poached....WHERE DOES THIS END TBK and SSTEO???

[Jeffery]

And now it is revealed that Silent Fear's account was also poached....WHERE DOES THIS END TBK and SSTEO???
Except that, according to Kahuna, he ALWAYS paid for Silent Fears account, from day one on.
So it wouldn;t be considered poaching.

[x-useme]

?

Wasn't Silent Fear always in SSTEO?

[Phate]

Yea, but TBK denies him access to the account now.

And if anyone has noticed.. recently TBK stats increased and Silent fears went down... and since only TBK has access to Silent fear and can easily expel SF and then re-invite since he is leader... This rasies some flags in my head. So everyone be on the look out...there may be possible boosting.

[Buster]

Hey Phate why aint you been talking to me?

[Jeffery]

Flags for boosting, yes. Poaching in that one case, no.
Technically, if he has been the one who always paid for the account, then as far as TAO is concerned, it has always been his account. He can deny anyone access to it if he wants.

As for the boosting, it has been shown that his stats went up dramatically at the same time that several accoutns he controls went down. Get LT in here to do a back tracing of the accounts again.

[Phate]

Your right jeffery,

However, Ethically speaking TBK has taken over an account that he has no part in getting to 1600+, so therefore ethically it is Silent Fear who the account shoudl eblong to. However all the matters is the money in TAO, so unfortunately SF has no say in what happens while TBK gets away with more accounts to boost off of while TAO banks.

Thanks,
Phate

Edit: Hi Buster, but if you want to talk to me just send a PM, I don't give shouts everytime I post :-) just give me a PM but I do acknowledge that you are there, at least to myself, I can see you are writing :-)

[Buster]

Hey Phate why aint you been talking to me?

Agian not even a Hello whats wrong Phate

[Jeffery]

Your right jeffery,

However, Ethically speaking TBK has taken over an account that he has no part in getting to 1600+, so therefore ethically it is Silent Fear who the account shoudl eblong to. However all the matters is the money in TAO, so unfortunately SF has no say in what happens while TBK gets away with more accounts to boost off of while TAO banks.

Thanks,
Phate
Look at it like this:

I lease a car, and make the payments on it. But I let you drive it for 150,000 miles.
I then decide that I want the car for myself, and take it from you.

That car is still mine. (actually the lease companies, but same difference here)

When dealing with golded accounts, the person paying is the technical owner. Silent would be considered the ethical owner only.

Is what Kahuna did legal with Silent. On TAO yes.
Is it ethical? No

Now, I am talking about the ownership only, not the stat boosting.

[R G]

Good points Jeffery...but it still don't make it right.

Particularly the boosting off of the account.

[Phate]

Look at it like this:

I lease a car, and make the payments on it. But I let you drive it for 150,000 miles.
I then decide that I want the car for myself, and take it from you.

That car is still mine. (actually the lease companies, but same difference here)

When dealing with golded accounts, the person paying is the technical owner. Silent would be considered the ethical owner only.

Is what Kahuna did legal with Silent. On TAO yes.
Is it ethical? No

Now, I am talking about the ownership only, not the stat boosting.

I completely agree

[x-useme]

Of course it's legal, but it's very sleezy and incredibly stupid.

[Phate]

And its even more incredibly sleezy when you use SF stats in rev and drop them almost 100 stats in a week (from the info I recieved) SF is now 1244 he was 1300+.. might be on the rnakings still... and TBK has gone up quite a bit to 1162 I believe....

FLAG!!!!

Edit: SF was 1275 as of this week and is now 1244 and TBK was 1190 and now 1162... maybe a 3rd acount involved... or maybe this is amounting to nothing... we shall see!

[R G]

Well the mods don't really care unless there are screenies....