Whoever moves first can't attack

[Mithrandir]

People are always complaining about how much of an advantage it is for someone to get first turn. Why not simply make it so whoever moves first can't attack, but can use their turn to get ready to counter attack from the opponent, who will get to attack first?

This would significantly reduce the importance of first turn in games and would result in skill being the deciding factor more often.

[The Exile]

However, then the person who goes second has a slight advantage.

You can't completely remove the benefits given from first turn.

[Mithrandir]

I never said you could completely remove the benefits of first turn. This would certainly be a way to reduce them though.

[dirka dirka]

The first turn means nothing if you're good. The only time it means something, is in rushing, and we all know rushing is lame.

[The Exile]

You obviously don't know how to turtle.

[dirka dirka]

You obviously don't know how to turtle.
3 people posted in the thread, you needs to be specific.

[The Exile]

Anyone with a reasonable amount of logic could have deduced that my comment was aimed at you, dirka.

Of course, you're not well known for your logic.

[dirka dirka]

Anyone with a reasonable amount of logic could have deduced that my comment was aimed at you, dirka.

Of course, you're not well known for your logic.
Anybody with an ounce of logic knows that all I do is turtle. The first turn means almost nothing. Don't even argue with me on this, I've proved this point time and time before, and I'll do it again if I must.

[The Exile]

Maybe for you, it doesn't matter. But in a game between two experts on turtle, who know that the player on the defensive is going to lose 9 times out of 10, having the chance to send out your units faster is VITAL.

[dirka dirka]

Maybe for you, it doesn't matter. But in a game between two experts on turtle, who know that the player on the defensive is going to lose 9 times out of 10, having the chance to send out your units faster is VITAL.
... seriously, just stop, you have no idea what you're saying. Saying it doesn't matter for me, but it does for "experts" is laughable. Playing on the defense means little compared to offense, they are both strategy. The fact that you said playing the defense is bad and rushing your units in is vital, shows you have no idea what a turtle is. A turtle is both defense and offense. Back when Warcow played alot, this concept was his very well being. I didn't notice it then, but now I do know. Sending your units in will not lead to a win.

[Wayfaerer]

dirka got the first shot on me awhile ago and still lost by 9 units, he knows what he's talking about :cool:

[dirka dirka]

dirka got first turn on me awhile ago and still lost by 9 units, he knows what he's talking about :cool:
lol... sadly i havent played in forever, or i'd call you out

[Squidiot!]

Anybody with an ounce of logic knows that all I do is turtle. The first turn means almost nothing. Don't even argue with me on this, I've proved this point time and time before, and I'll do it again if I must.

Yes dirka does turtle, ive played him at turtle, :rolleyes:

[dirka dirka]

Yes dirka does turtle, ive played him at turtle, :rolleyes:
Have you? I didn't think you were around back then.

[Squidiot!]

Or was i,...And i just played you a week ago.. Silly goose..;)

[Wayfaerer]

Seriously though, playing defense is by no means a disadvantage. After it becomes second nature I think it's much easier, makes for more interesting games too. Sounds like Exiled is boasting his intelligence again just for the hell of it :dry:

[dirka dirka]

Seriously though, playing defense is by no means a disadvantage. After it becomes second nature I think it's much easier, makes for more interesting games too. Sounds like Exiled is just trying to boast his intelligence again just for the hell of it :dry:
See guys... Wayf doesn't even like me, and he still is saying that I'm pretty much right.



Squid: probably wasn't actually me playing then

[The Exile]

I dare ANYONE to try all-out defense against me. Seriously, you will get annihilated even if you have 2 frosts, furgon and a wisp along with your normal stone cluster.

I don't rush my units in, that's a recipe for disaster. You need each unit to support the others, taking careful heed of recovery times and coordinating them so something is ready to go every turn... however, the underlying principle of a "true" turtle is not to allow your opponent to get close to your stone focus and your cleric, or you lose the advantage you do have, and you can't do that on the defensive.

I'm not debating with you, dirka, because I know what an debate is to you: repeatedly stating your point over and over with complete disregard for what the other person says. That's not called a debate, that's called an argument.

[dirka dirka]

I dare ANYONE to try all-out defense against me. Seriously, you will get annihilated even if you have 2 frosts, furgon and a wisp along with your normal stone cluster.
Seriously, get over yourself. This isn't about how bad or good someone plays.

I don't rush my units in, that's a recipe for disaster. You need each unit to support the others, taking careful heed of recovery times and coordinating them so something is ready to go every turn... however, the underlying principle of a "true" turtle is not to allow your opponent to get close to your stone focus and your cleric, or you lose the advantage you do have, and you can't do that on the defensive.
... okay, so you proved me right. Its not just offence or defence. You previously said defence will loose 9 out of 10 times. Now you renig, saying turtles are both defence and offence. Point proven.

I'm not debating with you, dirka, because I know what an debate is to you: repeatedly stating your point over and over with complete disregard for what the other person says. That's not called a debate, that's called an argument.
Why resort to insults? Cause you can't back your point? Cause it is invalid? BTW, look up debate in the dictionary, it says argument. Don't try and make a distinction between the two.

[Mithrandir]

Truly amazing how such a simple suggestion caused such a nasty fight. I think the idea is a good one.:)

[Megabyte]

Of course, you're not well known for your logic.
(about Dirka)

After reading this thread, this is the main statment that seemed to get proven here.

[-Dape-]

mmmmmm you can attack in your first move it depends on the setups like same sides in turtle i can get first move and attack depends on setups and where his men are plus if your not ready to armor but in turtle armor is the best and first move unless they have rush.

[dirka dirka]

After reading this thread, this is the main statment that seemed to get proven here.
... Wrong. I am right, I've been around alot longer than most of you, I'm not some nub just making shit up.

[The Exile]

After reading this thread, this is the main statment that seemed to get proven here.
... Wrong. I am right, I've been around alot longer than most of you, I'm not some nub just making shit up.
I know dirka dirka probably wasn't your first name, but Megabyte was here before I even started reading these forums. I know you said "most", but by your "logic", if we should listen to you because you've been here longer, shouldn't you listen to Megabyte?

I think all of dirka's 8,000-odd posts can be summarized thusly:
I am right

[dirka dirka]

I know dirka dirka probably wasn't your first name, but Megabyte was here before I even started reading these forums. I know you said "most", but by your "logic", if we should listen to you because you've been here longer, shouldn't you listen to Megabyte?

I think all of dirka's 8,000-odd posts can be summarized thusly:
Don't even try to argue semantics. I was here before byte, btw. Beat him by... about a month and a half. Also, that wasn't my logic. My logic simply states I've played alot more, the first turn means almost nothing, and I know this from experience.

[Hellblazer]

Well, if you take away the attacking feature from the first turn, then you would have to take it way from the opponent's first turn because otherwise the opponent could hit whatever unit the other guy moved- or didn't move.

[dirka dirka]

BTW, proving another point in my argument. All turns mean almost nothing. More over if the opponent blocks or you don't do anything constructive. My average game is 100 turns, 50 for me 50 for them, meaning a turn is 2% of my game. If the odds are 48% to 52% in his favor, well I wouldn't bet on those odds.

[Realist]

I'm not debating with you, dirka, because I know what an debate is to you: repeatedly stating your point over and over with complete disregard for what the other person says. That's not called a debate, that's called an argument.

No, it's just called stupidity.

Mith, this is a great idea. True, second player now has advantage, but this is less of an advantage than first has now, making the game as a whole more even and less luck-based.

[Mithrandir]

Mith, this is a great idea. True, second player now has advantage, but this is less of an advantage than first has now, making the game as a whole more even and less luck-based.
Wow, someone actually remembered what the initial idea was AND liked it. *looks out the window for flying pigs*

By the way, I have no clue why how long one has been here, has anything to do with who's right.

[wolf-boy]

Lol, eric. Really, it depends on what type of turtle you are using. From past experiences, I know that you used a furgon turtle, whereas a powerturtle is pretty potent with a first turn. You stone, then Rush your opponent basically.
It actually works for me, letting them develop less counters than they could compared to them having first turn.

[The Exile]

Here's an idea: instead of saying "you can't attack", why not say "you can't cause damage to enemy units"? This means that if you have a stoney, frosty or furgon, you COULD use them to aid your defense from the start. That's about as even as you're going to get.

Of course, it makes turtle games exactly the same as they are currently, as both players usually start by armoring up. But turtle games aren't that common now anyway, and in any case, first turn doesn't offer any advantage in a turtle game. :rolleyes:

[Moose]

Wow, someone actually remembered what the initial idea was AND liked it. *looks out the window for flying pigs*

By the way, I have no clue why how long one has been here, has anything to do with who's right.

It's very simple, people are naturally looking for arguements on the forums, so when they take a comment and turn it the other way without understanding it's context of what it "really" means. They assume that they are not trying to point out a flaw but just be an asshole.

Anyways, this is a bad idea, first move doesn't determine much except for rushing games, and even then if ur clever enough, u can still win that game without the first move.

[Mithrandir]

Anyways, this is a bad idea, first move doesn't determine much except for rushing games, and even then if ur clever enough, u can still win that game without the first move.
I'm actually getting tired of reading nonsense like this. Yes, if you're clever enough first move won't kill you but first turn IS an advantage. Don't treat this suggestion like it's meant to remove all luck from the game. It's just a minor change that would undeniably remove SOME luck from the game. Many games aren't decided by first turn, especially when the guy with the second turn plays a better game. But sometimes the first turn makes a huge difference.

[Megabyte]

I don't think I've played a single game where it was decided in the first turn. A match where the outcome is guarenteed from a single turn, yes, but never the first. Wouldn't it be better to give people the option of deciding whether they want to move first or move second and do damage?

Like still have the random factor in the beginning, but make it so that the person who wins gets to choose, instead of just giving the first move.

... Wrong. I am right, I've been around alot longer than most of you, I'm not some nub just making shit up.
This quote alone is pretty indicative of the rest of your stuff. Part ignorance, part chest thumping, little to none in the common sense area.

heh, even if u were in TAO before many people, you should know that you can have been here for years and still be an idiot and a noob ;)

FYI, the Megabyte account was first paid for on Nov 16'th '03 ;) So its actually not possible to have been beaten me here by a month and a half. I won't even bother to talk down your other claims against me, because I just find it amusing. You obviously have no clue, and its not worth the effort to trash you any more than that, you've done enough to yourself.

[dirka dirka]

FYI, the Megabyte account was first paid for on Nov 16'th '03 ;) So its actually not possible to have been beaten me here by a month and a half. I won't even bother to talk down your other claims against me, because I just find it amusing. You obviously have no clue, and its not worth the effort to trash you any more than that, you've done enough to yourself.
... The byte account was made 1-21-2004. I was playing mid december. I was here before that account was made. <-FYI, rofl


Seriously, if ANY of you think that a turtle is all about rushing in... you need your heads examined. The first turn means little, accept it, you might get better.

[The Exile]

Seriously, if ANY of you think that a turtle is all about rushing in... you need your heads examined. The first turn means little, accept it, you might get better.
Proof that you don't read other peoples' posts:
I don't rush my units in, that's a recipe for disaster. You need each unit to support the others, taking careful heed of recovery times and coordinating them so something is ready to go every turn... however, the underlying principle of a "true" turtle is not to allow your opponent to get close to your stone focus and your cleric, or you lose the advantage you do have, and you can't do that on the defensive.
In any case, how could you possibly get better by accepting that the first turn doesn't mean much?

Edit: damn, he's drawing me in to another argument.

[dirka dirka]

Proof that you don't read other peoples' posts:

In any case, how could you possibly get better by accepting that the first turn doesn't mean much?

Edit: damn, he's drawing me in to another argument.
No, I definitly read that, I'm just repeating what I said before, because some still think turtles are all about rushing, evidently.

If you know how the game works, you get better, and that is that.

[tarvos 6]

I personally, now that im playing grey, think first turn COULD very well be a HUGE advatage, because sometimes someone has their LW exactly in the right spot to hit my pyro, and I hate it when I get a disadvatage like that before I get a chance to move, so I agree with this adjustment to the game, that way people can move that pyro or scout outta the way of the impending storm, without putting the other guy at a disadvantage at the same time.

tarvos 6

[monkus]

Okay, I'm going to (hopefully) solve all conflict and everything, and possibly fail miserably, but oh well:

First, Mith's idea: Well, I'll get to turtle games in a second, but you really need to define "Attacking". Can I not shrub or stone? In that case, then the first turn is useless for almost all turtle game situations. If I can, then you don't change turtles all that much, which isn't too bad.
In rush games, I understand where this is coming from, but rushers really don't do a huge amount of moving and positioning early in the game. Usually, it's just a race to deal damage, in which case the first turn is being incredibly diminished. Sure, you're balancing it a little, but the net benefit of programming this in probably isn't worth the effort.
Gray games, I actually don't like this. THe only benefit is saving clerics against DMWs, but grays should be preventing that move already anyway. The fact that a person can not lose a pyro or witch to an LW is actually a bad thing, because the idea is that it's a risk any gray mage bomber is supposed to take. If I stick my DMW up front, I'm SUPPOSED to be taking the risk of losing her to an LW immediately. If that risk doesn't exist, then mage bombs become a bit more "profitable" for a player, and you're actually encouraging a luck-based form in the end. While it might be minor, I don't think you're really changing luck too much in the gray game. First move really isn't that important.
Otherwise, I definitely do like the idea, I do think it can improve the game slightly. Will it happen? Unfortunately, probably not :(

Now, onto the Dirka/Exile argument:

Exile: I don't really think it's fair to say Dirka isn't providing evidence, because in this instance, I really feel like he is. It unfortunately turned into a flame war, but logic-based arguments were given on both sides here.

Dirka/Mega: Who the heck cares who was here first? Do you know who's been here a LONG time? Some guy named JohnJacob (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/member.php?u=5). Never posted, never really came back, but god has he been here long. Time doesn't matter! Experience, activity, and things learned do. Prove to us that you know what you're talking about with evidence and warrants, not by flashing arbitrary credentials. I believe everyone and anyone equally when they initially say something; it's how they back it up that lets me decide who's right.

Now, this is mainly for exile, but we'll see how it goes:
Offense and Defense DOES exist. I constantly tell newer players about the differences, and it is true that offense usually does better. HOWEVER, in more experienced games, defensive players can often do just as well if not better; backed up by frostys, furgons, and whatever other defensive units usually aren't used on the attack, defensive players are just as potent. The 9/10 statistic was, in my opinion, wrong.
Even then, first turn is also not decisive on who takes the offensive. It's based on the forms, and how they're played. Any good player could take second turn and still take an easy offensive. First turn makes it a little easier, but the difference is miniscule, and I think almost anyone will agree with that. Sending out units faster is nice, but not "VITAL". Offensive players, as you put it yourself Exile, usually play responsively, and not just blind aggresively. So your strategy won't even form until your opponent moves anyway. The extra early turn is just a little extra to further a strategy of your own that might not even be finished.
Finally, if we take your advice, Exile, that it should be "Cannot attack enemy units", then you won't change turtle games AT ALL. People will still stone first turn, as usual, and this rule does nothing.

Dirka: Well argued, but your reputation got the better of you :p. I do think defense and offense matters, but for the most part you're right on these things. Just next time don't bring like time playing into the argument; it tends to start a flame war.

[The Exile]

Now, this is mainly for exile, but we'll see how it goes:
1. Offense and Defense DOES exist. I constantly tell newer players about the differences, and it is true that offense usually does better. HOWEVER, in more experienced games, defensive players can often do just as well if not better; backed up by frostys, furgons, and whatever other defensive units usually aren't used on the attack, defensive players are just as potent. The 9/10 statistic was, in my opinion, wrong.
2. Even then, first turn is also not decisive on who takes the offensive. It's based on the forms, and how they're played. Any good player could take second turn and still take an easy offensive. First turn makes it a little easier, but the difference is miniscule, and I think almost anyone will agree with that. Sending out units faster is nice, but not "VITAL". Offensive players, as you put it yourself Exile, usually play responsively, and not just blind aggresively. So your strategy won't even form until your opponent moves anyway. The extra early turn is just a little extra to further a strategy of your own that might not even be finished.
3. Finally, if we take your advice, Exile, that it should be "Cannot attack enemy units", then you won't change turtle games AT ALL. People will still stone first turn, as usual, and this rule does nothing.
1. Yes, but you'll still have a hard time fighting off 2 scouts, mud and dragon if there's no pressure on the enemy's stone focus.
2. True enough, although it does offer a very tangible advantage against a slightly lesser player. If the stone focus CAN be broken (ie. if your first move is to put a scout within 10 spaces of the enemy stone) a less skilled player is less eager to move away and try to break your focus. Two highly skilled players is an entirely different matter, and two highly skilled players on Legends is even more of a different matter.
3. This is exactly what I said a few posts back. The rule was designed to help turtles against rushes. Because, quite frankly, they need it.

[BaxVarlet]

People are always complaining about how much of an advantage it is for someone to get first turn. Why not simply make it so whoever moves first can't attack, but can use their turn to get ready to counter attack from the opponent, who will get to attack first?

This would significantly reduce the importance of first turn in games and would result in skill being the deciding factor more often.

I really like this idea, it would be different at first, but once used to it, it would be nice.

Plain and simple, it reduces the importance of luck in games where luck is more evident.

[Moose]

I'm actually getting tired of reading nonsense like this. Yes, if you're clever enough first move won't kill you but first turn IS an advantage. Don't treat this suggestion like it's meant to remove all luck from the game. It's just a minor change that would undeniably remove SOME luck from the game. Many games aren't decided by first turn, especially when the guy with the second turn plays a better game. But sometimes the first turn makes a huge difference.

Basically this would give the 2nd person to go an advantage, because they can attack, and yeah so what even if you have the first turn, the game itself and i'll keep restating has the word "TACTICS" in it. Meaning you can turn people's first moves against them if your smart, just like utilizing the first turn.

If you can't handle the random generator number prefix, then don't play, it's that simple and blunt sadly :(.

[Megabyte]

monkus, I don't really care, I'm just pointing out the gaping flaws in dirka's reasoning. If you don't realize by now I like to debate and mock, you havn't been reading my posts :p

... The byte account was made 1-21-2004. I was playing mid december. I was here before that account was made. <-FYI, rofl


Seriously, if ANY of you think that a turtle is all about rushing in... you need your heads examined. The first turn means little, accept it, you might get better.

All setups are simply base ideas. Once the match gets going, your strategy should adapt to what is needed. If you have a turtle, you have the basis of a defensive setup. If you need to press an offensive attack though with that turtle, you do it. That turns the turtle into a rush. Its not as effective as a setup setup in the start of a rush, but then again, a rush can't play as defensively as a turtle, thought I'm sure we've all seen a rusher backup and play more defensive than they could have.

Dirka (join date, 02-10-2005)...I'm amazed that you're this dense to not understand it from my post. I was playing well before I came to the forums ;) Again, the Megabyte gold account was originall made on Nov. 16'th on Armageddon server. Although, admittedly, I took a break from TAO in for a few weeks, shortly after the clans were created in Dec '03. When I came back to the game is when I decided to make a forum account.

I thought it was blatantly obvious that was my meaning. Your FYI just further reveals your ignorance and lack of common understanding.

[dirka dirka]

monkus, I don't really care, I'm just pointing out the gaping flaws in dirka's reasoning. If you don't realize by now I like to debate and mock, you havn't been reading my posts :p
You haven't yet pointed out one flaw.



All setups are simply base ideas. Once the match gets going, your strategy should adapt to what is needed. If you have a turtle, you have the basis of a defensive setup. If you need to press an offensive attack though with that turtle, you do it. That turns the turtle into a rush. Its not as effective as a setup setup in the start of a rush, but then again, a rush can't play as defensively as a turtle, thought I'm sure we've all seen a rusher backup and play more defensive than they could have.
Exactly... so like I said, if you think a turtle is all about rushing... I mean, come on, how dumb can you be.

Dirka (join date, 02-10-2005)...I'm amazed that you're this dense to not understand it from my post. I was playing well before I came to the forums ;) Again, the Megabyte gold account was originall made on Nov. 16'th on Armageddon server. Although, admittedly, I took a break from TAO in for a few weeks, shortly after the clans were created in Dec '03. When I came back to the game is when I decided to make a forum account.
No, I understood your post just fine. I was pointing out that you have no valid proof of your playing, or atleast havent shown it. You also know this was like... my 10th forum name.

I thought it was blatantly obvious that was my meaning. Your FYI just further reveals your ignorance and lack of common understanding.
No, not at all. I twisted what you said to work with what I said. Its not ignorance or lack of common sense. In fact, if it is at all, its on your side.


Now, seriously, give up. Monkus even said I am more or less right. Why keep arguing, you obviously lost.


You still haven't figured out what I am trying to point out here. Its most likely because lack of common sense, like you originally thought of me. My original point on defence/offence was pretty much backed by monk, so argue with him since I'm so unworthy of arguing with if you think he is wrong. My second point is nobody can say they've been here longer than someone else, unless they admit when they first got here. I know I beat your forum account by 1 and a half months. Thats all I know, and I'm basing my conclusion on it. Seem fairly arrogant? Yes, thats because it is, to point out that you saying "you wern't here before me" shows arrogance, when you truly have not a clue.

[Megabyte]

1. You're the one who tossed out the "I was here long before Byte and most everyone else" line. I find it interesting that you call it my own arrogance when you are the one who brought it up.

2. You havn't made a point to what I've seen. You seem to change your point whenever someone points out an argument to something you've written and skip about in a manner that defies logic. That's not a point, its you dodging in your argument because you don't have one.

3. The problem with your "experience" argument is you provide no proof, but expect me to do so. Realistically, you're expecting ppl to simply take your for that fact that you've been here about 14 months before your shown join date. To be frank, your word has a less than sterling record on these boards.

4. Monkus's post was a general trash based on our argument ;) Since I havn't deabted you on the strategic value on the first turn too much, I fail to see how this makes you "right." Reading through the posts again, I think my firt post was still pretty accurate. I know I have arrogance, but I bring an argument to back up my ideals in it. Most of your's seem to have little substance behind it.

[The Exile]

Megabyte, I really wouldn't bother arguing with dirka if I were you. Even when he's wrong, he absolutely refuses to admit it.

[dirka dirka]

1. You're the one who tossed out the "I was here long before Byte and most everyone else" line. I find it interesting that you call it my own arrogance when you are the one who brought it up.
Nonono, don't twist my words now buddy. I said I was here before that forum account was made.

2. You havn't made a point to what I've seen. You seem to change your point whenever someone points out an argument to something you've written and skip about in a manner that defies logic. That's not a point, its you dodging in your argument because you don't have one.
... why even resort to ignorant arrogance when you have no valid argument? What are you? DUH?

3. The problem with your "experience" argument is you provide no proof, but expect me to do so. Realistically, you're expecting ppl to simply take your for that fact that you've been here about 14 months before your shown join date. To be frank, your word has a less than sterling record on these boards.
Many know how long I've been here, cause I played against them way back. Also, I didn't ask for evidence until you made it evident that you are using current data, such as join dates, to dictate length. I have no reason to provide proof, because its right out there for you to find. On the other hand, I can't login to your paypal and check your paid dates.


4. Monkus's post was a general trash based on our argument ;) Since I havn't deabted you on the strategic value on the first turn too much, I fail to see how this makes you "right." Reading through the posts again, I think my firt post was still pretty accurate. I know I have arrogance, but I bring an argument to back up my ideals in it. Most of your's seem to have little substance behind it.
It doesn't matter if you debated with it or not, it still makes me right. All my posts have the same base, read them slower. Seriously, don't result to insults when you got nothing.

IRT The Exile: Coming from the one that just got proved wrong.


Edit: Anyway, I'm done arguing here. I proved my original point, then you guys said I didn't regardless, then monk said I'm right. If monk isn't enough for you to believe it, you're not worth arguing with.

[TheBlazedAce]

Sorry mith, gonna have to not like one of your ideas for once. This basically makes the second player have first turn. The only purpose for this as I can see is to reduce the advantage first turn rush on a turtle will have. Turtle vs turtle the first move is almost always stoning anyways or some kind of defensive move. So though having first turn might have an advantage to a turtle moving his units in it probably won't happen the first turn, it'll happen the second or third.

[Moose]

To Megabyte, Exile and Dirka:

"Grow up Children".

[dirka dirka]

To Megabyte, Exile and Dirka:

"Grow up Children".

To Moose:

I think you meant "Grow up children." not "Grow up Children".

[Mithrandir]

Sorry mith, gonna have to not like one of your ideas for once.
Awww, I'm hurt.;)
This basically makes the second player have first turn.
Obviously someone will ALWAYS get to attack before someone else. But at least my way the person that doesn't attack first can at least prepare defensively.

By the way, as monkus pointed out well, this would screw up grey games and it would take no effect in turtle games assuming stoning was allowed, which it ought to be. The primary idea is rush vs rush and rush vs anti/turtle.

[Megabyte]

What about other non-damaging attacks? Would a furgon be able to shrub? Frost golem's use their paralyze (or enchantress)?

Megabyte, I really wouldn't bother arguing with dirka if I were you. Even when he's wrong, he absolutely refuses to admit it.

agreed

Its amazing the contradictions that he leaves for himself.

[dirka dirka]

agreed

Its amazing the contradictions that he leaves for himself.
funny, monkus seemes to understand

[Jeffery]

I'm surprised people just don;t ignore Monkey Licker when she gets all uppity.

[Moose]

To Moose:

I think you meant "Grow up children." not "Grow up Children".

To dirka dirka:

I think you meant "Grow up children".

[x-useme]

I don't really mind first turns. Yes, they are somewhat of an advantage, but that is only if it is a cleric rush or some other sort of aggressive rush. Otherwise, you just are given the first chance to position your players. Mith, I like your idea, but unfortunately, something like that can't be made a rule.

[Megabyte]

I'm surprised people just don;t ignore Monkey Licker when she gets all uppity.

good advice, another to the ignore list

[dirka dirka]

good advice, another to the ignore list
Its almost sad when you add someone to your ignore list cause you won't accept that you are wrong.
To dirka dirka:

I think you meant "Grow up children".
No. I meant "Grow up children."

The period goes inside the quotes.

[Mithrandir]

What about other non-damaging attacks? Would a furgon be able to shrub? Frost golem's use their paralyze (or enchantress)?
I would say stoning, shrubbing and barriering should be allowed but paralysis should not.

To sum it up, no attack of any kind on your opponent's units but you can do whatever you want to your units.

[dirka dirka]

There has to be a better solution to this quasiproblem.

What if:

1) The game keeps track of how many times you've gotten the first move and how many times you have not. Then, (how many times you have not gotten the first move) is subtracted from (how many times you've gotten the first move). Then whoever has the lowest number has a 3:4 chance of getting the fist move. If the person with the lowest number gets the first move, the game goes on as normal. If the person without the lowest number gets the first move, they an not attack on the first turn.

or

2) The game keeps track of who you have played and if you got the first move or not. Using this data, whoever got the first move the last time the two of you battled, doesn't get it this time. If you've never battled before, its random.

or

3) What you said.



None of them make it 100% fair. However, its close enough.

[LAZARUS]

A quick virtual Jo-Ken-Po before the game would settle this.

Then there would be no complains about "why" he/she moved first. It would simply be fair.