Kenki (legacy67)

[legacy67]

This unit has been under wraps for a long time. I wanted to wait until gold voting began again to unveil it. I am not going to have it submitted for certification yet, I would like to see what comes from the discussion first. This was a hard unit to balance and I am sure that there will be many opinions on it, but I had a great time making it. Without futher ado..

Kenki: Devilish Swordsman

Edits in Green (not including diagrams)

HP: 40
Armor: 15
Movement: 3 (divisable)
Power: 18 (21 (24))
Blocking: 70% (follows normal rules of LOS)
Recovery: 1 (+1 for each extra attack)
Attack Pattern: Diagonal, like jumping in checkers
K=Kenki, T=Target, E=Ending point
XXE
XTX
KXX

Special Ability: Linked Attack

When the Kenki attacks, he first does 18 damage. If there is another unit that fits his attack pattern, he may attack for 21 damage. If there is yet another unit in his path, he may attack a 3rd time for 24 damage. Some diagrams:

1st attack: K=Kenki, T=Target, E=ending point
XXE
XTX
KXX

2nd attack: O=original starting point, F=former target, K=Kenki, T=2nd target, E=ending point

XXXXE
XXXTX
XXKXX
XFXXX
OXXXX

3rd attack: O=original starting point, F=former targets, S= 2nd starting point, K=Kenki, T=3rd target, E=ending point


XXXXKXX
XXXFXTX
XXSXXXE
XFXXXXX
OXXXXXX

This represents on of the many ways in which the attack can be worked. Basically, after the 1st attack the Kenki has 3 option if and only if there are units in the proper squares for his attack.
O= original starting point, F=first target, K=Kenki, T=possible targets, E=possible ending points.

EXXXE
XTXTX
XXKXX
XFXTX
OXXXE

The Kenki can only continue moving and attacking if there are units in the spots showing a T. If there is no unit for the Kenki to attack, his movement stops. If the attack is blocked, the movement stops. If the Kenki does the maximum of 3 attacks, the movement stops. If the Kenki attacked without first walking then he may walk after the attack.

The Kenki cannot "retreat" or double back on the same path in the same turn, meaning, he cannot go back and forth attacking one unit.

For each attempted strike, the Kenki gains a recovery of one. If it attacks one unit, 1 recovery. 2 units=2 recovery, 3 units=3 recovery. If an attack is blocked, the recovery is still added.

If the unit is against the wall, the Kenki does a “wall jump” illustrated as so.

WXE
WTX
WXK

W= wall, K= Kenki, E= Ending Point, T= Attacked Unit, X= Open Space

You cannot jump an unnocupied space.

Divided movement: The movement of 3 can be divided between before attack and after attack. This is because the attack pattern makes the Kenki particularly susceptable to flanking. This ability is well balanced because the ovemnt will nearly always be divided to 1 and 2. It is very rare that the attack will be useable without moving first.

Thanks to JC, Cross, LT, and 22 for their input.:cool:

[Cross Punisher]

The following ability is still under discussion.

If the unit is against the wall, the Kenki does a “wall jump” illustrated as so.

WXE
WTX
WXK

W= wall, K= Kenki, E= Ending Point, T= Attacked Unit, X= Open Space

Thanks to JC, Cross, and 22 for their input.:cool:What do you mean "under discussion?" That ability is genius, and so is the guy who thought it up:cool:

BTW I'll give a more detailed response later after I look at all the new changes.

[Mithrandir]

Well as I live and breathe, checkers has been brought to CAU. Brilliant.

I'm not sure how tactical and balanced it is yet, I'd have to look closer and time is a precious commodity at the moment. I love the concept.

BUT, and I'm sorry but someone had to say it at some point, it isn't the Fabricor.;)

[JesusCraig]

You may recall this statement from when you first PM'ed me.

Ok heres the main problem, the attack is all but ineffective against the first unit (comparing to other melee), meaning that you must jump 2 times for this unit to be effective,but that in turn requires you to be behind enemy lines and have a building recovery. My analysis is simple, each successful jump doesn't make it more powerful, but less, it hurts you to jump units, and its not powerful enough to use in singular jumps.

As it stands I disapprove of it, its too weak in every situation. Especially if you consider the retreat can be covered rather easily.

Also I have a question about recovery, recovery is half rounded up, if I jumped three units and then didn't move, would the recovery be 2? or would it be (1/2*1)+(number of additional attacks)

Do you express any worries that in most situations a backshot on the kenki is going to be available and its not very resilient?

[legacy67]

Well as I live and breathe, checkers has been brought to CAU. Brilliant.

This was actually the basis for my idea in the attack pattern. ;)

I'm not sure how tactical and balanced it is yet, I'd have to look closer and time is a precious commodity at the moment. I love the concept.

Despite the fact that I am in love with this unit, and the fact that I have spent a lot of time working on it, I still consider the Kenki an open book.

BUT, and I'm sorry but someone had to say it at some point, it isn't the Fabricor.;)

Sadly enough, there will never be another Fabricor.:cool:


Ok heres the main problem, the attack is all but ineffective against the first unit (comparing to other melee), meaning that you must jump 2 times for this unit to be effective,but that in turn requires you to be behind enemy lines and have a building recovery. My analysis is simple, each successful jump doesn't make it more powerful, but less, it hurts you to jump units, and its not powerful enough to use in singular jumps.

I don't feel that 18 damage is all but innefective, secondly, it will not be hard to get the second attack off, it is the third that is the challenge. I am open to beefing the unit up a little bit, but I don't entirely agree with the stranding arguement. If the Kenki attacks without moving first, it can then move after the attack. Also, this is a fairly advanced unit to use. In the hands of an inexperienced player it will be of mild importance. In the hands of an expert it will be deadly. In this repect it is similar to the wisp, you have to wait for the right time to be able to use it with any sembalnce of effectiveness.

Remember that after one attack (the most likely situation to put it out in the open behind enemy lines with an exposed back) its recovery is only 1. When its recovery is 2 or 3 it will not be too hard to get it either back across to your own side, or with the back to the wall.

In terms of your recovery question, if it moves without attacking then the recovery is zero, but it always gains 1 recovery point per attack.

Again this is open to discussion, but I feel that the unit is well balanced the way it is. In most situations it will have 1 or 2 recovery, whihc isn't that bad.

[Cross Punisher]

I'm also forced to stick by my original observation:I believed it was underpowered in that it was too weak for the position the unit was put into after attacking. I like the fact that the attack went up after each succesful attack because it makes you work for the full damage instead of each additional attack being like a "bonus." You've beefed up the stats, but there is still little incentive to do 18 damage to 1 unit for 1 recovery, 21 damage to a 2nd unit for 2 recovery, or 24 damage to a 3rd unit for 3 recovery because of the position the Kenki is put in after attacking which is either deep within enemy lines or far away from any friendly support.

[legacy67]

You've beefed up the stats, but there is still little incentive to do 18 damage to 1 unit for 1 recovery, 21 damage to a 2nd unit for 2 recovery, or 24 damage to a 3rd unit for 3 recovery because of the position the Kenki is put in after attacking which is either deep within enemy lines or far away from any friendly support.

I have considered 20/22/24, and the more I think about it the more I think that is a good idea. It will give more incentive for the first attack.

Also maybe making the first 2 attacks for 1 recovery and the last cause 2. So if you attack one or two times the recovery is one, but if oyu attack 3 the recovery is 2.

There is also the idea of keeping the recovery the way it is and making the attacks 20/25/30, giving some real incentive to go for that 3rd attack. I still fel like it is not in that much of danger in real use. If you attack once then it's in good shape with 1 recovrey to escape. If you attack 2X then you only have 2 recovery. Not to mention that a smart player will move in ways that do not expose the Kenki to back attacks.

Most importantly, we seem to be forgetting the ability to go out the way you come in. Jump over and hit for 20, then wait one turn and jump back for 20 (or 18 or whatever). Basically there seems to be a lot of speculationabout how easy the unit would be to kill, but I feel like no one is thinking past the jump and into the full strategy of the unit.

Just my 2 cents.:cool:

Edit: I'm headed out to the bars for a while now, but I'll be back later (hopefully very drunk) for the debate.

[JesusCraig]

Your argument would make logical sense if the Kenki didn't have to move the majority of times for his attack to be available, I state this because in common game play a stance where you are diaganol to units will not occur, except in cases with another unit adjacent that is being targetted. Yet how often in games currently does someone attack a unit adjacent to a unit with a unit behind it, doing so allows for a 100% chance of attack, AND if your opponent is not retarded, he will attack from the direction that is not facing towards his own formation, but rather channel outwards, if he does this the kenki is vulnerable because even if he moves back, he can't reach the cover of his previous position. These scenarios are far more unlikely to occur since expert players already seldom allow diaganol positioning to adjacent units, this will only force the game to evolve where it would be utterly ridiculous. In every other scenario the kenki will be moving first, thus will have to retreat back into friendly lines using his attack. Also there is the problem with the fact the unit can just move towards the kenki to attackso that he is adjacent, this results in him losing his method of exit, unless he merely walks out.

Also how is blocking calculated, normal los rules would make most his attacks against units facing forward.

Actually beefing it up doesn't really make it a better unit, theres a line in which it will cross that it becomes a melee unit with extra abilities, which is not good.

Note: If the kenki attacks any melee unit it is open to back attacks. Thats one of the reasons I make the claims I do.

[legacy67]

Well, what would make this a better unit? I was think about making the movement splitable. One could move 1 or 2 spaces, then attack, then move the other one or two spaces. That would solve the flankable problem. I still think the concept is quite good, I am just having some small issues in execution.

Really, this unit would be stronger earlier in the game, when it has the best chance of multi-hitting. A good player would wait for an opportuniy for a double or triple before attacking.

[Forest_Archer]

This is a great unit, but lower the health by like 4 and lower the blocking to 60%, to balance it out. Since this unit can hop all over I think it would be tactical.

[Vicious1]

This unit has been under wraps for a long time. I wanted to wait until gold voting began again to unveil it. I am not going to have it submitted for certification yet, I would like to see what comes from the discussion first. This was a hard unit to balance and I am sure that there will be many opinions on it, but I had a great time making it. Without futher ado..

Kenki: Devilish Swordsman

HP: 40
Armor: 15
Movement: 3
Power: 18 (21 (24))
Blocking: 70%
Recovery: 1 (+1 for each extra attack)
Attack Pattern: Diagonal, like jumping in checkers
K=Kenki, T=Target, E=Ending point
XXE
XTX
KXX

Special Ability: Linked Attack

When the Kenki attacks, he first does 18 damage. If there is another unit that fits his attack pattern, he may attack for 21 damage. If there is yet another unit in his path, he may attack a 3rd time for 24 damage. Some diagrams:

1st attack: K=Kenki, T=Target, E=ending point
XXE
XTX
KXX

2nd attack: O=original starting point, F=former target, K=Kenki, T=2nd target, E=ending point

XXXXE
XXXTX
XXKXX
XFXXX
OXXXX

3rd attack: O=original starting point, F=former targets, S= 2nd starting point, K=Kenki, T=3rd target, E=ending point


XXXXKXX
XXXFXTX
XXSXXXE
XFXXXXX
OXXXXXX

This represents on of the many ways in which the attack can be worked. Basically, after the 1st attack the Kenki has 3 option if and only if there are units in the proper squares for his attack.
O= original starting point, F=first target, K=Kenki, T=possible targets, E=possible ending points.

EXXXE
XTXTX
XXKXX
XFXTX
OXXXE

The Kenki can only continue moving and attacking if there are units in the spots showing a T. If there is no unit for the Kenki to attack, his movement stops. If the attack is blocked, the movement stops. If the Kenki does the maximum of 3 attacks, the movement stops. If the Kenki attacked without first walking then he may walk after the attack.

The Kenki cannot attack the same unit twice in one turn, meaning, he cannot go back and forth attacking one unit.

For each attempted strike, the Kenki gains a recovery of one. If it attacks one unit, 1 recovery. 2 units=2 recovery, 3 units=3 recovery. If an attack is blocked, the recovery is still added.

The following ability is still under discussion.

If the unit is against the wall, the Kenki does a “wall jump” illustrated as so.

WXE
WTX
WXK

W= wall, K= Kenki, E= Ending Point, T= Attacked Unit, X= Open Space

Thanks to JC, Cross, and 22 for their input.:cool:

Holy crap!!! I think i'm gonna faint :eek:. Nice job legacy. This should definitely be made into a unit. No question about it. I like the movement, helath, change the blocking like FA said, and i like the armor. This is the perfect unit. You should tell a mod or some1 to take a look at this. This is a great piece of work here ladies and gentlemen. If this was made into a unit i would most likely use it. Very, Very, Very , Very, Very, Nice Job!!! This unit Pwns. :clapping2 :clapping2 :clapping2

[legacy67]

What do people think about the ability to split movement? Like, move 2 spaces, attack, then move 1. Or move 1, attack and move 2. That would be very unique and balance out the flanking issue.

[Deck of Jesters]

There are multiple ways for this to be used... you don't need the units to be lined up in a diagonal.

Alternating spaces:
XOXOX

Lines:
XXXXX

Diagonals:
XOOOX
OOOOO
OOXOO

Walls:
EEE
OXO
OOO

Corners(maybe?):
OXE
OOOE

Where X=Hostile Units, O=Empty spaces, and E=Out-of-Bounds.


These formations all occur fairly often throughout a game, and could easily be taken advantage of.

One question about the corners, however...

Does it work like this:

OXE
DOFE
(Where O=Empty squares, X=Hostile unit, E=Out-of-Bounds, D=Devilish Swordsman, and F=Finishing location)
or this:

OXE
DOOE
(Where D=both Start and Stop position of Devilish Swordsman)?

[Forest_Archer]

Legacy- I have one question for you. What is the tactical use of this unit? What kind of form has a diagonal unit pattern?

[legacy67]

DOJ - The answer is your first diagram. Just as in the normal siutation, the unit is jumping off the wall to the back of the target.

Forest - First off, it has unique attack capabilities that other melee units don't have. The basic attack (1st jump) is useful in many situations. The one that I like the best is this scenario:

F= Possible space for friendly unit, T=Target, K=Kenki, E=ending point

XFE
FTF
KFX

The most likely positionnig is that the two spots next to the Kenki are occupied, then the kenki can step in in a way that other melee units cannot and get the hit. It is also possible that the Kenki is positioned opposite the friendly units like so:

XXK
FTX
EFX

This takes the Kenki from an exposed position and tranfers into a (melee) protected position. This is especially good if I decide to add the divided movement feature.

I have many ideas that I will post in the next few days regarding the strategy of this unit, but I will make two observations at this point.

1. The ability of this unit will be more limited in the begging of a game when the opponent can build his formation to avoid the Kenki, it is later that the Kenki becomes powerful. One can definately place the Kenki is preventative postitions, meaning that you can place the Kenki so that a certian move by an opponent will lead to a multi-jump. This is the subtle defensive benefit of the unit. You can effectively use the threat of a multi-jump as a deterent.

2. There is one main formation that DoJ did not include in his diagrams. In the following formation, the Kenki uses the wall to create a triple jump situation:

K=Kenki, 1=1st target, 2=2nd target, A=1st ending point, B=2nd ending point, C=3rd ending point, w=wall

wwwww
XX2XX
XBXAX
XX1XX
XKXCX

The two first attacks are from the front so they are blockable, the only one that avoids blocking is the "C" jump on Target 2.

That is all I will post for now as I have to go to work, but the more I am forced to reevaluate and defend this unit, the more strategy I see and like.:cool:

[Deck of Jesters]

See alternating units diagram :p Although I hadn't actually intended it for that use, lol, it still works :). I personally like the unit, didn't know if I did before or not because I just hadn't taken the time to look at it properly.

[JesusCraig]

Doesn't your unit say "cannot jump the same unit in the same turn", but your diagram shows it doing just that?

[Executioner]

I like this unit as it is crap against turts :bigsmile: I personally wouldnt use it as i dont like the attacking pattern but i cant deny the fact that it is a very good and well balanced unit. It would aslo lead to a conflict of interests in a rush set, do you deploy in a line for protection from the kenki or do you set units back to avoid dsm damage? Interesting....

Exe

[endless]

My inputs: The wall jumping is bad. I hate that idea. It might be just me but i think it will open up the unit just a little much. (+ you can't wall jump in checkers ;) )

And 2, personally i love the unit. But, i can see some ways you can use it to destroy form. I just hope that it wont to be another GA.

[legacy67]

Doesn't your unit say "cannot jump the same unit in the same turn", but your diagram shows it doing just that?

I have changed it to reflect the original intent of the rule which was that you could not reverse motion to multi-jump. This prevented someone from just triple-hitting one unit for a large amount of damage.

The aforementioned example is OK because it uses the continued momentum (as was the idea behind the increaseing attack damage). So, the only was you can hit a unit more than once in a turn with the Kenki is if you combo it in a 3-hit with a wall jump (which is no easy task).

I am still thinking about other edits. I think that I may add the divided movement but I have had no feedback on that concept. I think with the divided movement this unit would be well balanced.

In answer to endless's comment about wall jumping, I believe that it i not bad for a number of reasons.

1. You will almost always be wall jumping against a unit that is facing out, meaning the attack is blockable and not from the back.

2. Without the wall jump, units could hug the walls and never get hurt by the Kenki (especially late in game).

3. It opens up the combo strategy of the unit much more.

4. While checkers may have been the inspiration for the attack pattern, it is not the ruling concept for design limits.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I see a prime first-turn movement situation if you incorporate the divided movement feature... I will use my setup and another setup as an example.

X 0 0 0 X = Enemy units
0 X 0 0 0 F = Friendly units
0 0 X X 0 0 M = Movement points (one pre-attack, one end-of-turn)
0 0 J 0 0 0 J = Jump points
X X X X X 0 0 = Empty spaces
M 0 0 0 J 0
K F 0 F F 0
0 0 0 0 M F
0 F F F 0 0
0 0 0 0 0
F 0 0 0

You can easily use the Kenki to tackle frontline units, then use extra jumps or divided movements to retreat back into your own territory. In this diagram, the attacks would do 14 and 16 damage to my Knights (the two panels jumped), and retreat safely to a point where only Scouts, Dragon and Mud Quake can reach it, all at a serious cost.

I thoroughly enjoy the idea of incorporating strategems from other games into TAO, as one might have discovered from my Stormcaster, which assumed a Bishop-like role in TAO... However, I never would have thought to incorporate a Checkers-like quality in this game. Pure genious.

However, every unit does have its flaws.... As mentioned here, unless movement can be divided for both before and after attacks, you are going to end up with a unit that will do a little damage, then keel over and die, thus making its only use a 2- or 3-turn delay for your opponent to heal and kill the Kenki before it becomes a nuisance.

HOWEVER, if you do incorporate the movement division, you will have a unit that can move in, attack, and move out on the very same turn, which creates a very overpowering effect once one or two ranged units are eliminated. The unit could end up becoming virtually untouchable with a unit wall or Furgon, and would become more trouble than it's really worth in a turtle game.

With my Stormcaster, I created a unit with 30 total power, but incorporated the drawback (to prevent the abuse of a moving Lightning Ward) that it could only ever hit 54 (or 55) given spaces at a time, and as a result it was shot down because in the late game a unit would be able to force an automatic draw by moving into an unavailable space, thus creating a Catch-22 (although I personally thought that it would create more varying strategies to compensate for this fact). Your Kenki overcomes this obstacle with ease, however the divided or non-divided movement creates another Catch-22--if you don't incorporate divided movement, you have a sacrificial lamb or a unit that requires damaging friendly units to retreat to safety; if you do incorporate divided movement, you create a unit that could move into attack range and retreat in the same move, which is overpowered in just about every applicable situation.

If you want this unit to be even close to the level of your Fabricor Substantia, your best bet would be to overcome this obstacle.

[Forest_Archer]

Legacy- I have one question for you. What is the tactical use of this unit? What kind of form has a diagonal unit pattern?


Drum roll please.;)

Or you could always answer my question. That'd be nice. :rolleyes:

[Lonely Tylenol]

It doesn't need a diagonal unit pattern. If you check Deck of Jester's post, you can see a prime example of formations that allow multiple jumps.

[Dynamix]

no disrespect 67,but i think its kinda over powered because of the attack power

[legacy67]

no disrespect 67,but i think its kinda over powered because of the attack power

I am going to respond to LT later as I need some time to think, but i have responses for this and FAs question.

Forest, I answerred you question a while back so check the posts.

Dynamix: I do not feel that a maximun damage of 18+21+24=63 spread over 3 units is that strong. A DMW can do 24x4=96 damage to 4 units. Not to mention that it will take extreme skill to get more than a double hit. Also you cannot inflict all the damage on one unit (see original description). There is also only one scenario in which you can hit a unit twice (see above post). An assasin can do 18x4=72 damage. In all honesty, I do not belive that the attack power is at all overpowered.

Lt: I will get to you later but I do not belive that the split movement would be overpowered as the onyl thing it really does is prevent flanking by knights.

[endless]

Yeah, great unit. It is not at all overpowered.

[22woger22]

Now I think the wall jump would be a good idea, however illogical it may be. I don't see any walls in the TAO board, unless it's a pitch black wall. But if the wall jump technique would be removed, 1 on 1 units in end game that would certainly favour the Kenki, for example, a cleric and the Kenki, would be a draw, as long as the cleric hugs this invisible wall. The wall jump technique should stay. It may make the Kenki more tactical, because it could be used as a flanker, than jumping past units that come to meet it, to go deep within enemy lines with support.

The assassin is similar to the Kenki in many ways. It has a low HP, BUT a rather high blocking and reasonable armour. Hugging the wall with the assassin keeps it alive. That should mean that the Kenki should survive better by hugging and flanking.

Now, I have to go, but I may come back to write more.

And for the record, how did you come up with the name Kenki, legacy?

[legacy67]

I can't rememebr where I found it, but Kenki was the best japanese word for the idea.;)

Kenki actaully means "Devilish Swordsman" in japanese

[Dragon Lord617]

Put simply, this unit is great, and so is the name. :D

[Lonely Tylenol]

I have another observation, if the Kenki jumps diagonally, how is blocking determined? The same way a Scout LoS shot is?

B 0 B B = Back
0 V 0 V = Facing down
F 0 F F = Front

Jumping would be determined only by front and back blocking, correct?

[legacy67]

That is an interesting question, and one that I have been thinking about a lot. Having it simply work off of front and back blocking is an easy solution to this problem, but there may be merit into incorporating the side block LOS into this unit.

Does anyone have any opinions? (reasons for these opinions wouldbe greatly appreciated)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, in my opinion, the two best courses of action would be:

1) Blocking as normal (diagonal LoS blocking, two front attacks, two back)
2) Incorporate side blocking percentages into every direction of attack

Each one has its plusses and minuses, but vary based on the situation.

[Sodamoeba]

I just saw that LT asked my question already (I didnt notice there were only 2 pages)

I think LT's second idea would be best, with side blocking in every direction. It would be very easy to stop this unit if he could only hit front and back, because, odds are, he would have to move behind the enemy, attack, and then be in a position to be back attacked the very next turn. If you applied side blocking to everything, it would be more balanced. The only problem I see is how badly this might own scouts/assassins with that...

[Lonely Tylenol]

I just saw that LT asked my question already (I didnt notice there were only 2 pages)

I think LT's second idea would be best, with side blocking in every direction. It would be very easy to stop this unit if he could only hit front and back, because, odds are, he would have to move behind the enemy, attack, and then be in a position to be back attacked the very next turn. If you applied side blocking to everything, it would be more balanced. The only problem I see is how badly this might own scouts/assassins with that...

I actually thought about both options a lot, and I would have to go with the first one. The only units that the blocking would have a serious effect with are the Knight, Assassin, and Scout--the others even most reasonable players would risk a front shot with. Additionally, the Line of Sight applies a new dimention to the strategy involved in the Kenki's attack ability, because you have to determine the angle at which you would rather jump, instead of just choosing the units, meaning single jumps have to be co-ordinated to better ensure a hit, and multiple jumps have to be planned very elaborately to make sure you get the most out of each jump, thus adding various strategies and combinations for the Kenki.