Why George W. Bush is an Outstanding President

[uniquinous]

oh?...so its ok to yell fire in a crowded hallway?
le sigh - need we really get into constitutional law? Seriously - take the connotation of my words.

No, it's not legal to yell fire in a crowded theater because it very directly brings about panic and physical injury. Does my post accomplish that scale of mayhem?

[cuckoo]

If what they say is false and hurts someone's reputation, it is slander. Freedom of Speech only goes so far, but... how would it look, the president suing some small town 19 year old kid.

Slander is false and malicious, meant to hurt someone's reputation. Publically critisizing the president for his actions does not amount to slander, nor is throwing around lame jokes such as have been given here.

[inked]

and, actually what he said is slander (i believe) and is against the law

It was libel and it isn't treated as harshly when it is targeted towards someone is such a position of power as the president. Also the prosecutor must prove that his comment was directed to ruin the presidents reputation and life and was not just a social commmentary. Basically, impossible to prove unless the defendant is stupid enough to admit it was libel.

[dominion138]

le sigh - need we really get into constitutional law? Seriously - take the connotation of my words.

No, it's not legal to yell fire in a crowded theater because it very directly brings about panic and physical injury. Does my post accomplish that scale of mayhem?

no but its the same idea...the constitution does not allow for joking in speech... thus slandering someone or yelling fire is not protected because its a joke

[uniquinous]

Are you still alive? Might there be a chance that you wouldn't be alive if he wasn't president and didn't make some of the laws he did? Both of those question can be answered with the same answer. I think he does deserve definitly some respect.
I'm still alive! But, sadly, many others aren't due to his negligence as a president: 9/11 Memorial (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/)
He had the information. He sat in that classroom doing nothing after he found out...

Those precious minutes could have saved many even after the hit...

[dirka dirka]

Slander is false and malicious, meant to hurt someone's reputation. Publically critisizing the president for his actions does not amount to slander, nor is throwing around lame jokes such as have been given here.
Jokes, maybe not. Critisizing him with false statements, definitly. We already covered this though, type faster lol.

It was libel and it isn't treated as harshly when it is targeted towards someone is such a position of power as the president. Also the prosecutor must prove that his comment was directed to ruin the presidents reputation and life and was not just a social commmentary. Basically, impossible to prove unless the defendant is stupid enough to admit it was libel.
are you sure that has to be proved? Kinda seems like a dumb law if thats true.

[dirka dirka]

I'm still alive! But, sadly, many others aren't due to his negligence as a president: 9/11 Memorial (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/)
He had the information. He sat in that classroom doing nothing after he found out...

Those precious minutes could have saved many even after the hit...
Yes, and those men died in the name of what we believe in. If you don't believe in the president... kinda seems like you're turning your back on those who have fallen in his war.

[Jeffery]

no but its the same idea...the constitution does not allow for joking in speech... thus slandering someone or yelling fire is not protected because its a joke
Joking is covered in Freedom of Speech, and has been upheld in many court cases.
Take The Daily Show as an example, they are allowed to joke about the president being an idiot because they are doing so as a joke, and not as a serious attack upon his mental capacity. Parodies of copyrighted material are allowed, while direct copies of copyrighted materials are not.

So yes, joking IS covered in the constitution.

[inked]

Hustler Magazine v. Falwell (1988)

Dealt with a simular issue. However, in this case it is over a cartoon instead of a joke, but thatt is still simular.

[dominion138]

I'm still alive! But, sadly, many others aren't due to his negligence as a president: 9/11 Memorial (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/)
He had the information. He sat in that classroom doing nothing after he found out...

Those precious minutes could have saved many even after the hit...

what was he going to do? run right off into his airplane? and if he did get more people there more would have died when the towers fell...

[Jeffery]

Hustler Magazine v. Falwell (1988)

Dealt with a simular issue. However, in this case it is over a cartoon instead of a joke, but thatt is still simular.
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/hustler.html

That is another good example of how you are allowed to joke about someone, and are covered by Freedom of Speech.

[cuckoo]

Are you still alive?

Yes.

Might there be a chance that you wouldn't be alive if he wasn't president and didn't make some of the laws he did?

No.

Both of those question can be answered with the same answer. I think he does deserve definitly some respect.

They CAN be answered with the same answer. That doesn't mean they will be. If you think shipping people who's skins are darker than ours back to whatever country they were born in makes the world safer...

bush earned his respect when he was elected to office...

That is a matter of opinion. Seeing as politics requires bsing your way past questions and generally lying at every opportunity, I would have to disagree.

[uniquinous]

Yes, and those men died in the name of what we believe in. If you don't believe in the president... kinda seems like you're turning your back on those who have fallen in his war.
No, people died going to WORK.

You need not try to loop this around with faulty logic to appear like I hate people who died in the war. That's silly.

BEDEVERE: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Great gravy!
VILLAGER #1: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Churches -- churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead -- lead!
ARTHUR: A duck.
CROWD: Oooh.
BEDEVERE: Exactly! So, logically...,
VILLAGER #1: If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of
wood.
BEDEVERE: And therefore--?
VILLAGER #1: A witch!
CROWD: A witch! A duck! A duck!

[dirka dirka]

No.
There is no opinion here. The answer is not No, its Yes. There is a chance that without one of his reforms, you would not be alive.

[Jeffery]

what was he going to do? run right off into his airplane? and if he did get more people there more would have died when the towers fell...
The report of an imminent attack against New York via hijacked commercial liners was available long before 9/11 actually happened. The administration chose to not take action on those reports.

[uniquinous]

Which reform would that be?

[dirka dirka]

No, people died going to WORK.

You need not try to loop this around with faulty logic to appear like I hate people who died in the war. That's silly.
No, I wasn't implying that you hate the people who died in the war. However, logically, they died in a battle that you are condemning as useless.

[dirka dirka]

Which reform would that be?
Any reform he has made.

[dominion138]

The report of an imminent attack against New York via hijacked commercial liners was available long before 9/11 actually happened. The administration chose to not take action on those reports.

bush had just taken office...that would have fallin on the clinton admin. to fix

[Jeffery]

Which reform would that be?
Obviously the one where they can see what books you checked out of the library.
Or the one that stripped funding from FEMA and gave it to the Department of Homeland Security, and made FEMA report to the new department before it could take emergency action.

[Jeffery]

bush had just taken office...that would have fallin on the clinton admin. to fix
9 months (which is almost 1/4 of his term) had passed. I hardly call that "just" taken office.

[uniquinous]

i never said it was useless either...
where are you getting this from?
PUT DOWN THE CRACKER JACK BOX!!!

[dirka dirka]

i never said it was useless either...
where are you getting this from?
PUT DOWN THE CRACKER JACK BOX!!!
Sorry, maybe not you, but ALOT of people.

[cuckoo]

There is no opinion here. The answer is not No, its Yes. There is a chance that without one of his reforms, you would not be alive.

There is a VERY slight chance (0.1^-30%) that ANY actions by Bush could lead to a chain of events that might lead to my death. But I don't care about those fantastic possibilities.

Explain how one of his reforms directly keeps me safe.

[Jeffery]

I hereby blame Bush-Clinton-Bush-Reagon for the attacks. All of them took actions that pushed Bin Laden further towards his goal of blowing the hell out of part of the US.

[dominion138]

There is a VERY slight chance (0.1^-30%) that ANY actions by Bush could lead to a chain of events that might lead to my death. But I don't care about those fantastic possibilities.

Explain how one of his reforms directly keeps me safe.

he didn't renew the assault rifle ban :)

and yes i'm saying you're safer because of it

[dirka dirka]

There is a VERY slight chance (0.1^-30%) that ANY actions by Bush could lead to a chain of events that might lead to my death. But I don't care about those fantastic possibilities.

Explain how one of his reforms directly keeps me safe.
You can't say there is a slight chance, we have no way of knowing how big the chances were. There was a chance, we know that for sure. Chaos theory presents us with this possibility. I'm not going to explain how one directly keeps you safe, because hell, mostly its indirect.

[Gnosis]

I'm still alive! But, sadly, many others aren't due to his negligence as a president: 9/11 Memorial (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/)
He had the information. He sat in that classroom doing nothing after he found out...

Those precious minutes could have saved many even after the hit...
He was in a classroom full of little kids!!! He wasnt behind a supercomputer!
What was he supposed to do?!!? Fly away like superman and save the day?! How was he supposed to recognize the level of danger america was in? One of his men just walked up to Bush and wispered in his ear. That is all the president had to work with. A whisper. What could the president have done in those few moments that the mayor couldn't have. Its not like this happened within a few days, it was only a few hours.

Its amazing what people will type these days... :dry:

[Jeffery]

And there is a DEFINITE that his decision to put troops in Iraq will end up with Amercian citizens and soldiers being killed. It's not even a matter of chance that it MIGHT happen.

[dirka dirka]

And there is a DEFINITE that his decision to put troops in Iraq will end up with Amercian citizens and soldiers being killed. It's not even a matter of chance that it MIGHT happen.
This is true, however it also might lead to saving an exponential amount of people compared to those we have lost. I'm not saying its just, I'm saying... there is a cause.

[dominion138]

And there is a DEFINITE that his decision to put troops in Iraq will end up with Amercian citizens and soldiers being killed. It's not even a matter of chance that it MIGHT happen.

and he told people that...i don't think america was prepared for the number of people lost though...

[***Duo***]

And there is a DEFINITE that his decision to put troops in Iraq will end up with Amercian citizens and soldiers being killed. It's not even a matter of chance that it MIGHT happen.

I believe we discussed this earlier in the thread, about the war and what not?


-Duo

[dirka dirka]

and he told people that...i don't think america was prepared for the number of people lost though...
I believe its just short of 2,000 now?

[Jeffery]

and he told people that...i don't think america was prepared for the number of people lost though...
Except that before the invasion, Iraq was not involved in global terrorism at all, and in fact had been declared as an enemy state by Bin Laden.
Terrorists world wide have been united like never before in a cause that is perfect for their leaders motives.

[uniquinous]

He was in a classroom full of little kids!!! He wasnt behind a supercomputer!
What was he supposed to do?!!? Fly away like superman and save the day?! How was he supposed to recognize the level of danger america was in? One of his men just walked up to Bush and wispered in his ear. That is all the president had to work with. A whisper. What could the president have done in those few moments that the mayor couldn't have. Its not like this happened within a few days, it was only a few hours.

Its amazing what people will type these days... :dry:
You say 'only a whisper' as if it's nothing. A whisper can hold "hey I'm pregnant", or "your fly is down", or "I'm robbing you" or "the nation is under severe attack". What should he ought to have done? Gotten up immediately and walked out to deal with that whisper.

Furthermore, as someone else pointed out, they had information about the attack long in advance. Things could have been done to (at the very least) ease the pain, and were instead neglected at every opportunity.

[Jeffery]

I believe we discussed this earlier in the thread, about the war and what not?


-Duo
Yes, but if percentages of possible dangers are going to be discussed, the definites of dangers should be considered as part of the same conversation.

[***Duo***]

I believe its just short of 2,000 now?

1,971.


-Duo

[***Duo***]

Yes, but if percentages of possible dangers are going to be discussed, the definites of dangers should be considered as part of the same conversation.

Sounds good.


-Duo

[Jeffery]

You say 'only a whisper' as if it's nothing. A whisper can hold "hey I'm pregnant", or "your fly is down", or "I'm robbing you" or "the nation is under severe attack". What should he ought to have done? Gotten up immediately and walked out to deal with that whisper.

Furthermore, as someone else pointed out, they had information about the attack long in advance. Things could have been done to (at the very least) ease the pain, and were instead neglected at every opportunity.
Actually, his responding in 5 seconds or 5 hours could have changed NOTHING about the attacks on that day.

Nothing Bush could have done immediately after the attack could have changed the reality of the situation.

[Gnosis]

You say 'only a whisper' as if it's nothing. A whisper can hold "hey I'm pregnant", or "your fly is down", or "I'm robbing you" or "the nation is under severe attack". What should he ought to have done? Gotten up immediately and walked out to deal with that whisper.

Furthermore, as someone else pointed out, they had information about the attack long in advance. Things could have been done to (at the very least) ease the pain, and were instead neglected at every opportunity.

Ok then explain to me what he could possibly have done the moment he heard of the news. I want exact details.

[cuckoo]

You can't say there is a slight chance, we have no way of knowing how big the chances were. There was a chance, we know that for sure. Chaos theory presents us with this possibility. I'm not going to explain how one directly keeps you safe, because hell, mostly its indirect.

So, if Bush hadn't pushed his reforms out:

An evil islamic fundamentalist terrorist, using funds gained from a coalition between Al-Quaeda and Saddam Hussein slips into the USA. He checks up many books on nuclear bombs, but as the FBI have no direct proof of what he is doing, they can't let him rot in jail. He then buys nuclear material utilizing his connections-which gets by the customs as they don't have the right to check the glowing-green suitcase.

One day, he goes up to the White-House and blows it and all of Washington up. This causes riots all over the USA, with caucasions brutally attacking all those whose skin is darker than theirs.

These riots spread up to a sleepy little backwater in Canada where I am trampled by an angry mob, out for blood.:rolleyes:

Let me rephrase my previous claims. There is a 0.1^-80% chance of me dying as a result of Bush not getting out his reforms.

[uniquinous]

Ok then explain to me what he could possibly have done the moment he heard of the news. I want exact details.
see the post directly above your own

[dirka dirka]

So, if Bush hadn't pushed his reforms out:

An evil islamic fundamentalist terrorist, using funds gained from a coalition between Al-Quaeda and Saddam Hussein slips into the USA. He checks up many books on nuclear bombs, but as the FBI have no direct proof of what he is doing, they can't let him rot in jail. He then buys nuclear material utilizing his connections-which gets by the customs as they don't have the right to check the glowing-green suitcase.

One day, he goes up to the White-House and blows it and all of Washington up. This causes riots all over the USA, with caucasions brutally attacking all those whose skin is darker than theirs.

These riots spread up to a sleepy little backwater in Canada where I am trampled by an angry mob, out for blood.:rolleyes:

Let me rephrase my previous claims. There is a 0.1^-80% chance of me dying as a result of Bush not getting out his reforms.
Seriously, we can only imagine. There is no way to know what would have happened. The haunting question of "if." We can accept that there was a chance. Thats all we know.

[***Duo***]

So, if Bush hadn't pushed his reforms out:

An evil islamic fundamentalist terrorist, using funds gained from a coalition between Al-Quaeda and Saddam Hussein slips into the USA. He checks up many books on nuclear bombs, but as the FBI have no direct proof of what he is doing, they can't let him rot in jail. He then buys nuclear material utilizing his connections-which gets by the customs as they don't have the right to check the glowing-green suitcase.

One day, he goes up to the White-House and blows it and all of Washington up. This causes riots all over the USA, with caucasions brutally attacking all those whose skin is darker than theirs.

These riots spread up to a sleepy little backwater in Canada where I am trampled by an angry mob, out for blood.:rolleyes:

Let me rephrase my previous claims. There is a 0.1^-80% chance of me dying as a result of Bush not getting out his reforms.


I'd say that 0.1 just moved up to 0.2...


-Duo

[Gnosis]

see the post directly above your own
*holds arms up in victory*

Score one for Gnosis!!
Lets see thats Gnosis 1, Forumers 1,000... nice.:cool:

[dominion138]

*holds arms up in victory*

Score one for Gnosis!!
Lets see thats Gnosis 1, Forumers 1,000... nice.:cool:

i demand a recount :cool:

[cuckoo]

Seriously, we can only imagine. There is no way to know what would have happened. The haunting question of "if." We can accept that there was a chance. Thats all we know.

Bull. Instead of making the world safer, Bush's policies have done nothing but piss a LOT of people off. Once again, name me ONE policy that has made me safer.

[uniquinous]

*holds arms up in victory*

Score one for Gnosis!!
Lets see thats Gnosis 1, Forumers 1,000... nice.:cool:
erm... perhaps I should elaborate: Nothing he could have done within 5 seconds would have stopped what already happened, obviously. However, his direct action could have helped alleviate the damage much faster, don't you think?

On another note: What is this reputation stuff? Do people get bad reps for disagreement? I was under the impression that it went to spammers or those who didn't constructively contribute to debate and/or discussion. Have some of you actually been giving me a bad rep simply because I disagree with you? heh - sillies! alright, let's see where this goes...

[dirka dirka]

Bull. Instead of making the world safer, Bush's policies have done nothing but piss a LOT of people off. Once again, name me ONE policy that has made me safer.
Seriously, stop and consider what I'm saying. He has made us safer. Chances are that he prevented some sort of attack. There have been tons of attacks off US soil.. bus bombs...

[Gnosis]

Bull. Instead of making the world safer, Bush's policies have done nothing but piss a LOT of people off. Once again, name me ONE policy that has made me safer.
Your not thinking philosophically enough. There is always a chance.
Heck if I didnt write this reply to you, I could have gotten up, walked to my refrigerater, and eaten a piece of cake. This could have started an addiction for cake, causing me to get fat, and ultimately die of a heart attack.;)

[dirka dirka]

Your not thinking philosophically enough. There is always a chance.
Heck if I didnt write this reply to you, I could have gotten up, walked to my refrigerater, and eaten a piece of cake. This could have started an addiction for cake, causing me to get fat, and ultimately die of a heart attack.;)
EXACTLY!

[Gnosis]

erm... perhaps I should elaborate: Nothing he could have done within 5 seconds would have stopped what already happened, obviously. However, his direct action could have helped alleviate the damage much faster, don't you think?

On another note: What is this reputation stuff? Do people get bad reps for disagreement? I was under the impression that it went to spammers or those who didn't constructively contribute to debate and/or discussion. Have some of you actually been giving me a bad rep simply because I disagree with you? heh - sillies! alright, let's see where this goes...

I asked you to tell me exactly what he could have done after hearing the news. I havent recieved an answer.

[uniquinous]

Seriously, stop and consider what I'm saying. He has made us safer. Chances are that he prevented some sort of attack. There have been tons of attacks off US soil.. bus bombs...
I agree in the sense of indirect reasoning. Yes. Someone out there at some point thought "I better not @#$% with America due to the consequences that will befall me". However, I believe that same outcome could have been accomplished through different (read BETTER) means.

What I'm saying is Bush could have made America safer by blowing up every other country in the world. However, that's not the best or most practical way to accomplish that goal.

[Gnosis]

EXACTLY!
I got your back Dirka. ;)

Hmmm... I think I'm gonna have me sums cake!!

[cuckoo]

Seriously, stop and consider what I'm saying. He has made us safer. Chances are that he prevented some sort of attack. There have been tons of attacks off US soil.. bus bombs...

I have done plenty of considering. His policies are simply aiding Al-Queda, and other such orginazations. It is much easier to recruit someone after that person has just had a bomb dropped on his house, killing his entire family.

Or maybe shipping anyone who comes from the middle-east back to their home country, where they face torture? Even when they have not a shred of evidence (unless you count racism and a possible hunch as evidence) against those people?

Even if he did prevent someone from blowing up a bomb on USA soil, he has given them the incentative to blow it up on Iraqi, or Afganstan soil, killing American lives anyways. Then, yet more people get more and more pissed off at the USA, and not even the tightest security can keep out hordes of furious people. I feel safer already.

[Gnosis]

... not even the tightest security can keep out hordes of furious people. I feel safer already.
Oh I beg to differ.. *pets nuclear bomb*

[uniquinous]

EXACTLY!
Yeah but that logic doesn't hold cuz it is balanced out by the exact opposite reasoning (i.e. there's a *chance* his actions doom us tomorrow).

I appologize for missing your previous question. I believe faster presidential action could have gotten national support to the scene much faster, instead of only relying on local (NYC) support at first.

[On 9/09 I stared out a New York City window at the twin towers, a few blocks away, wanting to go there and see them someday.]

[Jeffery]

Yeah but that logic doesn't hold cuz it is balanced out by the exact opposite reasoning (i.e. there's a *chance* his actions doom us tomorrow).

I appologize for missing your previous question. I believe faster presidential action could have gotten national support to the scene much faster, instead of only relying on local (NYC) support at first.

[On 9/09 I stared out a New York City window at the twin towers, a few blocks away, wanting to go there and see them someday.]
There could have been no faster response to the scene that would have saved lives. Within hours an entire Navy battle group was stationed in New York Harbor. Being there 5 minutes earlier would have done nothing.

[cuckoo]

Your not thinking philosophically enough. There is always a chance.
Heck if I didnt write this reply to you, I could have gotten up, walked to my refrigerater, and eaten a piece of cake. This could have started an addiction for cake, causing me to get fat, and ultimately die of a heart attack.;)

0mgz0rz 1 s4v3d yu0 l1f3 1 r t3h h3r0!!1!1!!10n3!11!1

Seriously though, as I already stated, that could happen. But the chances (0.1^-80%, or if I listen to Duo, 0.2^-80%) are so minute that you cannot seriously take them seriously, especially as his policies HAVE (concretly, not in theory) killed tens or hundreds of thousands, and ruined plenty more.

[Gnosis]

There could have been no faster response to the scene that would have saved lives. Within hours an entire Navy battle group was stationed in New York Harbor. Being there 5 minutes earlier would have done nothing.
You know.. if Bush were superman, he could have flown around the world in reverse, and this never would have happened...;)

[uniquinous]

There could have been no faster response to the scene that would have saved lives. Within hours an entire Navy battle group was stationed in New York Harbor. Being there 5 minutes earlier would have done nothing.
I disagree. I'm not saying any further preventative measures could have been taken (as you've stated, that was covered). I'm saying there were people trapped in the collapsed rubble, and more people there at a faster pace excavating the site would have been better then the president sitting around.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Your not thinking philosophically enough. There is always a chance.
Heck if I didnt write this reply to you, I could have gotten up, walked to my refrigerater, and eaten a piece of cake. This could have started an addiction for cake, causing me to get fat, and ultimately die of a heart attack.;)
That "if" isn't enough. People are misled into believing that just because there was a chance, it probably would have happened.

This, my dear, dear forumers, is bullshit. Philosophy is not enough for this. You must also use logic. The timeline we live on does not allow for "what if's".

Better go do your last bit of living. There's a chance that the Earth will explode by the time you finish this sentence.

[Gnosis]

Yeah but that logic doesn't hold cuz it is balanced out by the exact opposite reasoning (i.e. there's a *chance* his actions doom us tomorrow).

I appologize for missing your previous question. I believe faster presidential action could have gotten national support to the scene much faster, instead of only relying on local (NYC) support at first.

[On 9/09 I stared out a New York City window at the twin towers, a few blocks away, wanting to go there and see them someday.]
The damage was in one place. Not like New Orleans where it involved an entire city. What good would it have done to cram all those federal relief guys into one place when the firefighters were already on the task.

[uniquinous]

The damage was in one place. Not like New Orleans where it involved an entire city. What good would it have done to cram all those federal relief guys into one place when the firefighters were already on the task.
Because more people were needed. This is why they were calling to Jersey and the surrounding areas for help; not only right when it happened, but days and weeks later as well. :(
doctors, construction workers, anyone with a specialty

[cuckoo]

That "if" isn't enough. People are misled into believing that just because there was a chance, it probably would have happened.

This, my dear, dear forumers, is bullshit. Philosophy is not enough for this. You must also use logic. The timeline we live on does not allow for "what if's".

Better go do your last bit of living. There's a chance that the Earth will explode by the time you finish this sentence.

Exactly. I can't rep you for that, but it was very well put.

[Jeffery]

I disagree. I'm not saying any further preventative measures could have been taken (as you've stated, that was covered). I'm saying there were people trapped in the collapsed rubble, and more people there at a faster pace excavating the site would have been better then the president sitting around.
And nothing the president could have done would have moved the operations faster. EVERYTHING that could be brought to the site was taken there, without a single order of the president.
Equipment to cut and move rubble was brought in by those that had them. Men and women trained in rescue went to the site, not because Bush had to order it, but because that is what they do. The response to 9/11 was literally the largest mobilization the US had ever seen, and none of the immediate needs that were there could have been fullfilled by Bush.

Fault him for failing to prevent the attack, but his response that day was as good as any person could have done, and would have changed nothing.

There literally could have been no better mobilization if he had left that class 5 minutes earlier.

[uniquinous]

i stand corrected then.
however, i still do need to hold to the point that it was wrong of him to sit there for that time. Sorry.

[dirka dirka]

Yeah but that logic doesn't hold cuz it is balanced out by the exact opposite reasoning (i.e. there's a *chance* his actions doom us tomorrow).
No, because the reforms were made in favor of peace. The reforms therefore don't have a negative chaotic path. However, they may result in other reforms that do.

[dirka dirka]

That "if" isn't enough. People are misled into believing that just because there was a chance, it probably would have happened.

This, my dear, dear forumers, is bullshit. Philosophy is not enough for this. You must also use logic. The timeline we live on does not allow for "what if's".

Better go do your last bit of living. There's a chance that the Earth will explode by the time you finish this sentence.
There is a good chance there would have been more attacks.

[cuckoo]

No, because the reforms were made in favor of peace. The reforms therefore don't have a negative chaotic path. However, they may result in other reforms that do.

They weren't meant for peace, and even if they were, they failed miserably.

EDIT: You say there would have been more attacks? I have already answered that in previous posts.

[uniquinous]

No, because the reforms were made in favor of peace. The reforms therefore don't have a negative chaotic path. However, they may result in other reforms that do.
And by your philosophical logic, anything is possible, so it still stands. (Again, I'm just pointing out why these arguments don't quite hold and we should dismiss them on both sides.) As stated previously, the largescale "what ifs" just can't stand.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

No, because the reforms were made in favor of peace. The reforms therefore don't have a negative chaotic path. However, they may result in other reforms that do.
Oh, there's always a negative chance. No matter what, something bad could happen. A synapse could have fired in the brain just as the reforms were being thought of and done some horribly chaotic catastrophe.

Remember, there's always a chance, dirka.:D

[Jehutyv.2.0]

There is a good chance there would have been more attacks.
There's a good chance something we don't know about would happen and the Earth would be destroyed. Point, please.

[Jeffery]

i stand corrected then.
however, i still do need to hold to the point that it was wrong of him to sit there for that time. Sorry.
How was it wrong?
To panic and immediately leave would have been to show weakness, and gained nothing. Also, when he was initially told of the attacks, he got much the same information everyone else had. He was told a plane had crashed into a building in New York.
Do you think the president is rushed out of wherever he is every time a plane crashes?
A few minutes later, when more information was available, and he was informed it was more than a plane crash, he left the room and went to his mobile command center.

Before you continue your rant against Bush, at least look into the details of the situation.
BTW- I am a Bush hater. But I am also a ingorance hater.

[dirka dirka]

There's a good chance something we don't know about would happen and the Earth would be destroyed. Point, please.
That is false.

Oh, there's always a negative chance. No matter what, something bad could happen. A synapse could have fired in the brain just as the reforms were being thought of and done some horribly chaotic catastrophe.

Remember, there's always a chance, dirka.:D
You're not considering the preface. It is balanced toward good, not bad.

And by your philosophical logic, anything is possible, so it still stands. (Again, I'm just pointing out why these arguments don't quite hold and we should dismiss them on both sides.) As stated previously, the largescale "what ifs" just can't stand.
No, not anything. God.. you guys still don't understand.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

BTW- I am a Bush hater. But I am also a ingorance hater.A better one than dirka, at least.

[uniquinous]

I too am an ignorance hater, which is why I am swayed by your reasoning. I don't think he should have been rushed to safety at first sign. However, stepping out into the hall and awaiting further detail would have been... nice. You see it as a sign of weakness - I see it as a sign of concern. At this point I really just think it's a difference of opinion. Let me know if you disagree or feel I'm still missing something.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

That is false.


You're not considering the preface. It is balanced toward good, not bad.

Hey guys, I'm going to pull a dirka and give a response without any proof!

Nope.

[dirka dirka]

Hey guys, I'm going to pull a dirka and give a response without any proof!

Nope.
If I have to provide proof that there is a good chance the earth won't explode, you're an idiot. Its obvious there isn't a good chance for this happening any time soon.

[Jeffery]

The "reforms" Bush has pushed have not made America safer in any measurable way, and have actually made the entire world more dangerous for American citizens.
No attacks have been proven to have been prevented in the US, but many attacks world wide have been attributed to the actions of the US government worldwide.
Sorry Dirka, you've proven nothing here except that Bush makes people in the US feel a bit safer while condeming the world to more terrorism than ever before.

[dirka dirka]

The "reforms" Bush has pushed have not made America safer in any measurable way, and have actually made the entire world more dangerous for American citizens.
No attacks have been proven to have been prevented in the US, but many attacks world wide have been attributed to the actions of the US government worldwide.Sorry Dirka, you've proven nothing here except that Bush makes people in the US feel a bit safer while condeming the world to more terrorism than ever before.
How can you even say that? All the attacks in the other countries most likely would have happened here also, if not for our security measures.

[cuckoo]

That's exactly what I said Jeffery. >.<

EDIT:

How can you even say that? All the attacks in the other countries most likely would have happened here also, if not for our security measures.

Including the mass of suicide and RPG attacks against American troops in Iraq? Or all the bombs dropped on Iraqi civilians? Or all the other Anti-American attacks that have occured?

[Jehutyv.2.0]

If I have to provide proof that there is a good chance the earth won't explode, you're an idiot. Its obvious there isn't a good chance for this happening any time soon.
Do you know about the infinite expanses of space? Do you know ever corner, every nook and cranny, every possible space? I didn't think so. Thus, the amount we don't know, which is potentially dangerous, heavily outweighs what we know here on Earth.

Idiot.:cool:

[dirka dirka]

Do you know about the infinite expanses of space? Do you know ever corner, every nook and cranny, every possible space? I didn't think so. Thus, the amount we don't know, which is potentially dangerous, heavily outweighs what we know here on Earth.

Idiot.:cool:
Wrong. We know alot about space. People are observing space as we speak, looking for asteroids or other things that might be in path with earth. It is VERY unlikely, google it.

[uniquinous]

I believe his overt sarcasm is proving a point. You can't provide proof the earth won't explode. You can't provide proof Bush definitively stopped all future terrorist attacks against us. You can't even provide proof for evolution over intelligent design. All we have to go on is what we have right now and how the facts sway the opinion. There is a tremendous amount of data that promotes evolution and demotes the world ending. However, the "what if" of Bush's reforms don't have that much credit in either direction. Thus, ideas on either side of this matter are null.

[Jeffery]

I too am an ignorance hater, which is why I am swayed by your reasoning. I don't think he should have been rushed to safety at first sign. However, stepping out into the hall and awaiting further detail would have been... nice. You see it as a sign of weakness - I see it as a sign of concern. At this point I really just think it's a difference of opinion. Let me know if you disagree or feel I'm still missing something.
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/2001/2001.htm

A list of all plane crashed in 2001. Plane crashes, train derailments and bus crashes happen all the time. There is no reason for the president to be pulled out of anything everytime one of those happen, as his job is to run a country in general, not manage first response to small emergencies. And yes, even a plave crash of a 300 passenger plane is small when you consider the 200+ MILLION people in the US.

[Dragoen Link]

I sure learned a bunch about Americans in this thread :wink2:

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Wrong. We know alot about space. People are observing space as we speak, looking for asteroids or other things that might be in path with earth. It is VERY unlikely, google it.
As I said, the universe is much greater than Earth, or even this little galaxy here. We don't know what kinds of technology there may be that have sensed our planet and wish to annihilate it. There are an infinite amount of potential dangers. But does that mean we have to be on our watch? No.

[dirka dirka]

You can't provide proof the earth won't explode.
I can provide some very pressing evidence of it, though.

You can't provide proof Bush definitively stopped all future terrorist attacks against us.
and vice versa. Thanks, proved my point finally. We don't know how good or how bad of a president he is. He made decisions and reforms. We don't know how it would have been without them.

[dirka dirka]

As I said, the universe is much greater than Earth, or even this little galaxy here. We don't know what kinds of technology there may be that have sensed our planet and wish to annihilate it. There are an infinite amount of potential dangers. But does that mean we have to be on our watch? No.
Uhm... definitly Yes. They do watch for that stuff..

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Uhm... definitly Yes. They do watch for that stuff..
No. It's too obvious for me to explain.

[dirka dirka]

No. It's too obvious for me to explain.
You're simply uninformed. They do watch space, for the very stuff you explained. Google it buddy. They also send signals searching for intelligent life.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

I can provide some very pressing evidence of it, though.


and vice versa. Thanks, proved my point finally. We don't know how good or how bad of a president he is. He made decisions and reforms. We don't know how it would have been without them.
You proved neither jack, nor shit, let alone jackshit. At first you said that it made America safer, now you say we don't know how it would have been? I state my point from before. You are a hypocrite.

[uniquinous]

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/2001/2001.htm

A list of all plane crashed in 2001. Plane crashes, train derailments and bus crashes happen all the time. There is no reason for the president to be pulled out of anything everytime one of those happen, as his job is to run a country in general, not manage first response to small emergencies. And yes, even a plave crash of a 300 passenger plane is small when you consider the 200+ MILLION people in the US.
It's just out of the ordinary, that's all. You compare 300 passengers to 200+ million; I compare it to the average 17 people per crash, which doesn't happen in a major city. You state running a country as a whole takes priority to "small emergencies" (do you really see it as that even then?), I state responding to small emergencies takes precident over entertaining little kids (as cute as they may be). I'm erring on the side of concerned caution, given the other actions he was doing at the time.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

You're simply uninformed. They do watch space, for the very stuff you explained. Google it buddy. They also send signals searching for intelligent life.
For one quintillian lightyears away? I don't think so.

[cuckoo]

You're simply uninformed. They do watch space, for the very stuff you explained. Google it buddy. They also send signals searching for intelligent life.

But you cannot prove that aliens have not secretly attached a bomb on earth that will destroy the entire planet? Nope.

[inked]

How does anything to do with search for intelligent life have to do with George W. Bush? I have been following this thread since it was made and I must say once it got "phillisophical" it turned into pure crap. No one normal thinks that an alien is going to blow up the earth and blame it on Bush and his policies.

[dirka dirka]

For one quintillian lightyears away? I don't think so.
I do.

You proved neither jack, nor shit, let alone jackshit. At first you said that it made America safer, now you say we don't know how it would have been? I state my point from before. You are a hypocrite.
Uhm... No. I said there is a chance it made america safer. In that, there also is an equal and opposite chance.

But you cannot prove that aliens have not secretly attached a bomb on earth that will destroy the entire planet? Nope.
... Prove they did.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

How does anything to do with search for intelligent life have to do with George W. Bush? I have been following this thread since it was made and I must say once it got "phillisophical" it turned into pure crap. No one normal thinks that an alien is going to blow up the earth and blame it on Bush and his policies.
Exactly.

[Jeffery]

How does anything to do with search for intelligent life have to do with George W. Bush? I have been following this thread since it was made and I must say once it got "phillisophical" it turned into pure crap. No one normal thinks that an alien is going to blow up the earth and blame it on Bush and his policies.
Think of it.
Any search for intelligent life is doomed to failure if you keeping looking at Bush for any sign of intelligence.

[uniquinous]

I can provide some very pressing evidence of it, though.


and vice versa. Thanks, proved my point finally. We don't know how good or how bad of a president he is. He made decisions and reforms. We don't know how it would have been without them.
Yes, that was my point - the opposite is not true either. We haven't seen too many negative or positive things come from his reforms. I'm stating, a great president would have had a great impact - not something so arbitrarily debatable. =)

This says nothing about his opponents at the time. All it says, is that Bush has not been a shining example of a great american president (read: I dont think he even comes close to moving this nation in a positive direction relative to most previous presidents).

People can state many poor choices he's made, and you can defend them. However, there aren't the greatest number of positive claims for him (and those that exist *easily* get refuted). So let's just assume he's in the neutral. That still means he's not a great leader. He may not be a horrible leader, but he has nothing positive to him either.

[cuckoo]

Uhm... No. I said there is a chance it made america safer. In that, there also is an equal and opposite chance.

Haha...no. If you bothered reading my other posts, I gave plenty of proof as to why this is bull.

... Prove they did.

I don't have to. As YOU STATED, there is a always a chance, however minute of it happening.

EDIT: I have dinner now. There is no proof that I will or will not return.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

I do.
Then you are simply wrong, sir.

Uhm... No. I said there is a chance it made america safer. In that, there also is an equal and opposite chance.
You believed it did. You then said we don't know. The end.
... Prove they did.
You're clutching at straws again, dirka. Shape up, your form is off.

Prove that that the reforms made America safer. Prove ANYTHING George Bush did directly made America a better place to live.

[dirka dirka]

Haha...no. If you bothered reading my other posts, I gave plenty of proof as to why this is bull.
Um, I bothered, I saw no proof. This is fact. There is equal and opposite chances to both.


I don't have to. As YOU STATED, there is a always a chance, however minute of it happening.
Okay... now prove it.

Yes, that was my point - the opposite is not true either. We haven't seen too many negative or positive things come from his reforms. I'm stating, a great president would have had a great impact - not something so arbitrarily debatable. =)

THIS RIGHT HERE IS MY POINT, EVERYBODY LOOK!

You are wrong. A great president still would have a unmeasurable effect. You have no clue what is going to happen as a result of what they did. Saying they are good or bad because of things they did short term, is DUMB.

[dirka dirka]

Prove that that the reforms made America safer. Prove ANYTHING George Bush did directly made America a better place to live.
This is my point buddy, my point indeed. It relates to the psuedo "great" president argument.

[inked]

"Chance" is not fact, but it is reasonable doubt.

However I wanted to ask a question in response to:

"I'm stating, a great president would have had a great impact - not something so arbitrarily debatable...I dont think he even comes close to moving this nation in a positive direction relative to most previous presidents)."

What president is so great that you can not debate something about his term?

[uniquinous]

You are wrong. A great president still would have a unmeasurable effect. You have no clue what is going to happen as a result of what they did. Saying they are good or bad because of things they did short term, is DUMB.

Perhaps a better illustration is in order:
If W were to play Tactics, he would be at an unmoving 750 stats. Not showing any wins, but not showing any losses either. Now, why do you think almost every great clan leader has over 750 stats?

(We need not get into a discussion of "stats aren't important" etc etc just take the example at face value and the meaning behind it)

[Jeffery]

"Chance" is not fact, but it is reasonable doubt.

However I wanted to ask a question in response to:

"I'm stating, a great president would have had a great impact - not something so arbitrarily debatable...I dont think he even comes close to moving this nation in a positive direction relative to most previous presidents)."

What president is so great that you can not debate something about his term?
George Washington?

[dirka dirka]

"Chance" is not fact, but it is reasonable doubt.

However I wanted to ask a question in response to:

"I'm stating, a great president would have had a great impact - not something so arbitrarily debatable...I dont think he even comes close to moving this nation in a positive direction relative to most previous presidents)."

What president is so great that you can not debate something about his term?
Chance is fact... Reasonable doubt is also fact. Fact just means it exists, its true.

This is the point. You can't say someone was great or average just by their face value. Maybe 100 years from now we'll have a better outlook on if he was great or average.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

This is my point buddy, my point indeed. It relates to the psuedo "great" president argument.
Not really. I was saying it on a sort of ironic level. We know that certain things have cause an effect. We can't prove it completely.

Also, I believe your point, which was horribly destroyed, as you can see, was that we are dumb, ignorant idiots.

[dirka dirka]

Perhaps a better illustration is in order:
If W were to play Tactics, he would be at an unmoving 750 stats. Not showing any wins, but not showing any losses either. Now, why do you think almost every great clan leader has over 750 stats?

(We need not get into a discussion of "stats aren't important" etc etc just take the example at face value and the meaning behind it)
Okay, seriously... no. Whos to say a great president would have their spoils and good things they did... before they died... made obvious to the world.

[uniquinous]

George Washington?
Yes, his stats are 2000

[inked]

Washinton was a slave owner.

[dirka dirka]

Not really. I was saying it on a sort of ironic level. We know that certain things have cause an effect. We can't prove it completely.

Also, I believe your point, which was horribly destroyed, as you can see, was that we are dumb, ignorant idiots.
No. My point is that saying this president is average, and even I did this, isn't fair. You don't know what he may have prevented, and in turn even what he may have caused. We don't have a good enough outlook to conclude this yet. If you form a conclusion on this subject, then yes, you're dumb ignorant idiots.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Washinton was a slave owner.
Because if you weren't at the time, you were ostracized from society.

[dirka dirka]

Because if you weren't at the time, you were ostracized from society.
Thats probably not why he owned slavers, per say... but, it could be a reason. Unless, he said that somewhere.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

No. My point is that saying this president is average, and even I did this, isn't fair. You don't know what he may have prevented, and in turn even what he may have caused. We don't have a good enough outlook to conclude this yet. If you form a conclusion on this subject, then yes, you're dumb ignorant idiots.
Heh, although that point seems highly changed, fine, I'll let you have it.

However, we can't just stand by and not criticize him. The opinions of the people DO make an impact on him, and may help sway the tide in the correct (not necessarily republican or democrat) direction.

[uniquinous]

Washinton was a slave owner.
ok 1900, but your great grandfather was involved in racial segregation. It took many many presidents after him before slavery was seen as inherently bad - let's not take him outa context. The point, simply put, is that he really shaped the nation.

Tho if you're stuck on that point, look at the Lincolnator: 2400 stats with one hand tied behind his back.

[dirka dirka]

Heh, although that point seems highly changed, fine, I'll let you have it.
Thats cause I was trying to get you guys to say that the chances of anything are unknow, and we just really don't know.

However, we can't just stand by and not criticize him. The opinions of the people DO make an impact on him, and may help sway the tide in the correct (not necessarily republican or democrat) direction.
Why criticize him? Is it helping? Not really.

[inked]

Okay then, He signed the Fugitive Slave Law of 1793

It made it a federal crime to assist an escaping slave, and established the legal mechanism by which escaped slaves could be seized (even in "free" states), brought before a magistrate, and returned to their masters. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Act_(1793))

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Thats cause I was trying to get you guys to say that the chances of anything are unknow, and we just really don't know.You said you wanted an average guy initially, but whatever.


Why criticize him? Is it helping? Not really.
Why argue against us? Is it helping? Not really.

The answer is that it's what humans do.

[Office_Shredder]

Okay, seriously... no. Whos to say a great president would have their spoils and good things they did... before they died... made obvious to the world.

Lots of president's have their impacts on the nation known before they die. Clinton is the most recent example ;)

[dirka dirka]

You said you wanted an average guy initially, but whatever.
Nonon. I don't think there is anything wrong with average. I think average and great could have something wrong with both of them. I like average, so thats my pick.



Why argue against us? Is it helping? Not really.
Actually.. yes. Cause now you understand my point.

The answer is that it's what humans do.
I don't think so. Humans reproduce and breathe!!!

[uniquinous]

Okay then, He signed the Fugitive Slave Law of 1793

It made it a federal crime to assist an escaping slave, and established the legal mechanism by which escaped slaves could be seized (even in "free" states), brought before a magistrate, and returned to their masters. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Act_(1793))
ack jeez. 1800 ok? There are trees in my furgon forest. Please see them!
Point still stands: at the time, these presidents greatly helped shape the nation in a positive way for the customs *of their time*.
Clinton easily broke 1000 within months of his first term. Bush: still at a solid 750.

[dirka dirka]

Lots of president's have their impacts on the nation known before they die. Clinton is the most recent example ;)
You don't know if that impact will lead to another impact thats bad, or good, or not good or bad...

[uniquinous]

You don't know if that impact will lead to another impact thats bad, or good, or not good or bad...
You're getting back into "what ifs" of the future when people are presenting you with factual evidence right now. You can't fight pyromancers with penguinmancers. You need fire. Don't compare apples and oranges and bove all else: don't mix your metaphors. =P

[dirka dirka]

You're getting back into "what ifs" of the future when people are presenting you with factual evidence right now. You can't fight pyromancers with penguinmancers. You need fire. Don't compare apples and oranges and bove all else: don't mix your metaphors. =P
... its a valid point, so don't act like its not. You can't guage things by their immediant spoils. I could kill a cleric very easy, sure... its dead. Oh, dang.. I lost 5 units in the mean time... and all my others are paralyzed.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Nonon. I don't think there is anything wrong with average. I think average and great could have something wrong with both of them. I like average, so thats my pick. But, great by definition is above average and thus would have less faults.


Actually.. yes. Cause now you understand my point.
Sure. But it's a stupid point. If we want to do this, why not just let us do this, instead of not being nice and agreeable? In short, why can't you just let us be?

I don't think so. Humans reproduce and breathe!!!
You're wrong, even if you took it from that point of view. You forgot eating and...waste disposal.

[dirka dirka]

Anyway, night people.

[***Duo***]

ok 1900, but your great grandfather was involved in racial segregation. It took many many presidents after him before slavery was seen as inherently bad - let's not take him outa context. The point, simply put, is that he really shaped the nation.

Tho if you're stuck on that point, look at the Lincolnator: 2400 stats with one hand tied behind his back.

Giving Presidents stats?
You need to go to TAO Rehab...
Anyway, night people.
Night Dirk. Don't let the Clowns bite. Let 'em lick.


-Duo

[dirka dirka]

But, great by definition is above average and thus would have less faults.
but how can you know if their overall achievements are average immediatly? You can;t. NIGHT!

[inked]

Lincoln let General Sherman do his famous "Sherman's March to the Sea" through Georgia which totaled in excess of $100 million in the 1860's.

Excessive terrorism in war?
His men killed inocent people as well.
Also his war was a civil war.
You could debate his war was worse than George Bush's War on Terror.

There is no President in history that doesn't have any debatable subjects about his term.

[uniquinous]

I could kill a cleric very easy, sure... its dead. Oh, dang.. I lost 5 units in the mean time... and all my others are paralyzed.
Seems like you just described what Bush did to this nation...
Well done. =)

Back to the fo serious: a 750 player is not gonna greatly impact other new players. In the real world: there's no *factual* evidence that Bush's actions will impact the nation for good or for evil. Again, without factual evidence, these distant "what ifs" boil down to nullities for both sides.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

but how can you know if their overall achievements are average immediatly? You can;t. NIGHT!
Right. But we already KNOW whether the guy is average or great. Average people have a normal amount of bad achievements. Great people have less. Thus, great is better than average in terms of candidate choice, and you're wrong.

The end.

[Wizzy`]

Giving Presidents stats?
You need to go to TAO Rehab...

Night Dirk. Don't let the Clowns bite. Let 'em lick.


-Duo

*Sees sign that says "TAO Rehab"*
*Walks in*
"Hi, im here because I am giving presidents stats.."
*Lady talks*
"Ok, just write down your name, and we'll send you into a room right away."
*writes down name*
"Ok, now where do I go."
*Lady points*
"There will be a big man right next to that door, he'll know where to send you"
*Walks over to man*
*man takes out needle*
*Pulls down wizzy's pants*
*man sticks needle in wizzys butt*
*faints*

[***Duo***]

*Sees sign that says "TAO Rehab"*
*Walks in*
"Hi, im here because I am giving presidents stats.."
*Lady talks*
"Ok, just write down your name, and we'll send you into a room right away."
*writes down name*
"Ok, now where do I go."
*Lady points*
"There will be a big man right next to that door, he'll know where to send you"
*Walks over to man*
*man takes out needle*
*Pulls down wizzy's pants*
*man sticks needle in wizzys butt*
*faints*


That's about the gist' of it.


-Duo

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Lincoln let General Sherman do his famous "Sherman's March to the Sea" through Georgia which totaled in excess of $100 million in the 1860's.

Excessive terrorism in war?
His men killed inocent people as well.
Also his war was a civil war.
You could debate his war was worse than George Bush's War on Terror.

There is no President in history that doesn't have any debatable subjects about his term.Ooh! Ooh! I got one!
WHH. William Henry Harrison.

[uniquinous]

Lincoln let General Sherman do his famous "Sherman's March to the Sea" through Georgia which totaled in excess of $100 million in the 1860's.

Excessive terrorism in war?
His men killed inocent people as well.
Also his war was a civil war.
You could debate his war was worse than George Bush's War on Terror.

There is no President in history that doesn't have any debatable subjects about his term.
Inked - I officially give up on you for this thread. You consistently seem to miss the blatant meaning behind my posts, searching for nitpicky arguments which completely ignore the greater context. Yes, every president has *something*. I'm not looking at individual events for this example, I'm looking at overall greater good for the nation. Clinton lied to a supreme court. There's your nitpicky argument. But he left a great impact on this nation. That's my argument. If you still don't see this, I appologize for being unclear for so long, but can no longer continue this same point with you.

[Sage Thief]

*Sees sign that says "TAO Rehab"*
*Walks in*
"Hi, im here because I am giving presidents stats.."
*Lady talks*
"Ok, just write down your name, and we'll send you into a room right away."
*writes down name*
"Ok, now where do I go."
*Lady points*
"There will be a big man right next to that door, he'll know where to send you"
*Walks over to man*
*man takes out needle*
*Pulls down wizzy's pants*
*man sticks needle in wizzys butt*
*faints*
Lol Very funny +rep

[dominion138]

we don't send signals to space nearly as much as we listen for them...we are actively cataloging near earth objects...and i doubt any aliens are going to bother us anytime soon...we're far too young and dumb for them i assure you...

and dangerous...

[inked]

Are you joking?

[dirka dirka]

Right. But we already KNOW whether the guy is average or great. Average people have a normal amount of bad achievements. Great people have less. Thus, great is better than average in terms of candidate choice, and you're wrong.

The end.
You DON'T KNOW his achievements. You know the surface value of what he has done. GRR I'M SUPPOSE TO BE ASLEEP!!

[Jeffery]

Inked - I officially give up on you for this thread. You consistently seem to miss the blatant meaning behind my posts, searching for nitpicky arguments which completely ignore the greater context. Yes, every president has *something*. I'm not looking at individual events for this example, I'm looking at overall greater good for the nation. Clinton lied to a supreme court. There's your nitpicky argument. But he left a great impact on this nation. That's my argument. If you still don't see this, I appologize for being unclear for so long, but can no longer continue this same point with you.
Can I nitpick your point again then?

Clinton never spoke to a Supreme Court over those issues.. He spoke to a committee of representatives. As in the ones in the Legislative branch of the government, not the Judicial.

[Rogue_Wolf]

I read this thread for the first 9 or so pages. The bulk of it was "Bush is a stupid-head" and Dirka saying "Shut up."

First of all, FA, your first post was laughable. You said nothing intelligent, instead making sarcastic insults. And later tell Dirka that you're trying to have a debate, not an arguement.

Inked, you actually sound like you know what you're talking about, and show intelligence. Though, your remarks about Duo taking definitions from Webster's dictionary was funny.

Dirka, most of your posts were you saying "No," "You're stupid," or "shut up." Nicely done.

I'm not too political. I don't make an effort to knowing all thats going on in the government. But I do know some things.

I think we went to war for a stupid reason. I know many people have died for this reason. But Sadam Hussein(sp?) is no longer in command, and they are voting for political officials in Iraq, along with an Iraqi Constitution being made. Not to mention no terrorists have attacked the US since 9/11.

The President's made some mistakes, but he's done some good. I think he's done a good job, considering 9/11 and Katrina happened while he was in office and all the other disasters going on around the world. I just have to know that I don't know what he knows. There's a lot of things going on in this world that I don't have all the facts about. So I don't really have the place to sit here and criticize someone who's doing a better job than I could probably ever do. Thats where I stand on the issue.

-Rogue_Wolf

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Are you joking?
Me or him?

[***Duo***]

You DON'T KNOW his achievements. You know the surface value of what he has done. GRR I'M SUPPOSE TO BE ASLEEP!!

I thought you were going to sleep? :rolleyes:
Somethin' just nagging at you, huh? :)


-Duo

[dominion138]

Are you joking?

am i joking?

EDIT: we all posted at once...lol

[x-useme]

this is the kind of post that I do not like posting in because if you say that you are for Bush, those against him will neg you, and if you say you are against him, those for him will neg you.

So I'm neutral :cool:

[inked]

Me or him?
uniquinous.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

I read this thread for the first 9 or so pages. The bulk of it was "Bush is a stupid-head" and Dirka saying "Shut up."

First of all, FA, your first post was laughable. You said nothing intelligent, instead making sarcastic insults. And later tell Dirka that you're trying to have a debate, not an arguement.

Inked, you actually sound like you know what you're talking about, and show intelligence. Though, your remarks about Duo taking definitions from Webster's dictionary was funny.

Dirka, most of your posts were you saying "No," "You're stupid," or "shut up." Nicely done.

I'm not too political. I don't make an effort to knowing all thats going on in the government. But I do know some things.

I think we went to war for a stupid reason. I know many people have died for this reason. But Sadam Hussein(sp?) is no longer in command, and they are voting for political officials in Iraq, along with an Iraqi Constitution being made. Not to mention no terrorists have attacked the US since 9/11.

The President's made some mistakes, but he's done some good. I think he's done a good job, considering 9/11 and Katrina happened while he was in office and all the other disasters going on around the world. I just have to know that I don't know what he knows. There's a lot of things going on in this world that I don't have all the facts about. So I don't really have the place to sit here and criticize someone who's doing a better job than I could probably ever do. Thats where I stand on the issue.

-Rogue_Wolf*sniffle* You...y-you didn't mention me!... Ah, I'm just kidding with you.

[dominion138]

this is the kind of post that I do not like posting in because if you say that you are for Bush, those against him will neg you, and if you say you are against him, those for him will neg you.

So I'm neutral :cool:

actually i'm pretty much for bush and i've recieved 4 pos and one neg...the neg from forest archer...called me a silly goose..:rolleyes:

[***Duo***]

I'm not too political. I don't make an effort to knowing all thats going on in the government. But I do know some things.

I think we went to war for a stupid reason. I know many people have died for this reason. But Sadam Hussein(sp?) is no longer in command, and they are voting for political officials in Iraq, along with an Iraqi Constitution being made. Not to mention no terrorists have attacked the US since 9/11.

The President's made some mistakes, but he's done some good. I think he's done a good job, considering 9/11 and Katrina happened while he was in office and all the other disasters going on around the world. I just have to know that I don't know what he knows. There's a lot of things going on in this world that I don't have all the facts about. So I don't really have the place to sit here and criticize someone who's doing a better job than I could probably ever do. Thats where I stand on the issue.

-Rogue_Wolf

I believe that is what we were getting at, around those 9 pages.
Agreed. Bush has done a good job in his current postion.
However, he can do better, do you not agree? Things may be tough, but he is our President. We can expect nothing less than an excellent job from him.
What do you think?


-Duo

[ChingyDTP]

Didn't vote for him.

[***Duo***]

Beat you to it Duo :)

DOH! And you beat me to saying I beat you saying it!

Just saw this...

Responce: *Evil laugh 'n cackle.*


-Duo

[Rogue_Wolf]

However, he can do better, do you not agree? Things may be tough, but he is our President. We can expect nothing less than an excellent job from him.
What do you think?

Yes, I agree. But then again, as I said before, I don't know what he knows. So its hard for me to judge the caliber of job he's doing when I don't know all the facts.

-Rogue_Wolf

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Just saw this...

Responce: *Evil laugh 'n cackle.*


-Duo
I think a better one would have been "Dance, puppets, dance!"

[***Duo***]

Yes, I agree. But then again, as I said before, I don't know what he knows. So its hard for me to judge the caliber of job he's doing when I don't know all the facts.

-Rogue_Wolf

Well, at the very least, it is good to think of that.
But you also must think of the matters that have been released.
Those will draw you to, at LEAST, semi-conclusions.

J V2, wha... ? :S


-Duo

[Rogue_Wolf]

But you also must think of the matters that have been released.
Those will draw you to, at LEAST, semi-conclusions.

In English please. :)

-Rogue_Wolf

[uniquinous]

Inked - not joking, I appologize for it tho.
Jeffery - you can nitpick anytime you'd like since you seem to be providing constructive responses that don't attempt to refute one of my points with something insignificant, but rather have the intention to correct little mistakes without disturbing the underlying point. ty as before.

On another note: how did i jump from -9 to 52 rep points!? Who controls this stuff!??!

[***Duo***]

In English please. :)

-Rogue_Wolf


In English... look at the facts the press and media have released. Formulate your own opinion on what the real story is, without worrying too much about what the President knows.
:)


-Duo

[dirka dirka]

Synchronicities!!

[inked]

Inked - not joking, I appologize for it tho.
Jeffery - you can nitpick anytime you'd like since you seem to be providing constructive responses that don't attempt to refute one of my points with something insignificant, but rather have the intention to correct little mistakes without disturbing the underlying point. ty as before.

On another note: how did i jump from -9 to 52 rep points!? Who controls this stuff!??!

Rep and You. (http://www.tacticsarenaonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17472)

[Jeffery]

Sin Chronic Cities????

[Rogue_Wolf]

The press and the media...there's some trustworthy people. My opinion is that he made some mistakes, but I'm happy with the end result. I don't think he's done a bad job.

-Rogue_Wolf

[cuckoo]

Well, I see dirka hasn't gone to bed yet, and I'm enjoying this too much.

Um, I bothered, I saw no proof. This is fact. There is equal and opposite chances to both.

No there isn't.
I provided statements to back up my posts. You have yet to refute them.

Okay... now prove it.

I didn't positivly say they did. I said it was possible. Just as Bush's reforms "possibly" saved my life (sure).

You have no clue what is going to happen as a result of what they did. Saying they are good or bad because of things they did short term, is DUMB.

Actually I do. Bush will be remembered in history as the guy who helped inflame the hatred between the west and the middle east.

[uniquinous]

thanks inked.
i still dont understand - that explanation gave a point here or there to certain things, but I just got like 100 rep points at once...
1. who did that
2. thank you?
3. how?
4. erm.... thank you?

[Jeffery]

Basically, when a person reps you, they do a certain amount of points.
Those points are based on length registered in the forums, number of posts, and the amount of rep the person has.

With many of the high powered reppers here now, you can get 100+ in just 2 pos reps.

[uniquinous]

ah i see. One of my rep comments was in blue, and one stated "Why, do you insist on breathing? Just die already" That made me laugh. Are most people too cowardly to take responsibility for their negative comments? or was this just some random bush lover who didn't like me providing logical arguments in this friendly debate?

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Basically, when a person reps you, they do a certain amount of points.
Those points are based on length registered in the forums, number of posts, and the amount of rep the person has.

With many of the high powered reppers here now, you can get 100+ in just 2 pos reps.
Yes, and with many of them immature, the threat of being "revenge" negged often surpasses the initial neg.

[andalite]

ah i see. One of my rep comments was in blue, and one stated "Why, do you insist on breathing? Just die already" That made me laugh. Are most people too cowardly to take responsibility for their negative comments? or was this just some random bush lover who didn't like me providing logical arguments in this friendly debate?
I don't know, I've noticed that a lot fewer people are leaving their names with their reps now that golds can see who leaves them, but greys still can't. Some probably just forget. But yeah, it's considered cowardly to neg without leaving a name.

And, from what I know of Bush, I don't like him. Granted, I only know what the New York Times (and now the Epoch Times, a bit) writes about him, so that's a decidedly liberal-tinted window to see through. But I don't like his narrow-mindedness, especially about gay marriage, and how he doesn't seem to care about what's happening in the country enough to read the newspaper by himself (at least, that's a rumor I heard, don't know if it's true) and take time off of his vacation to deal with New Orleans. I'll agree that he couldn't do much about 9/11, but his response, to attack Iraq, especially when nominal efforts were being made by Saddam to keep peace, was... very arrogant and jingoistic of him. What gives America the right to attack another country preemptively? There are also all these questions about his motives... but yeah.

[***Duo***]

The press and the media...there's some trustworthy people. My opinion is that he made some mistakes, but I'm happy with the end result. I don't think he's done a bad job.

-Rogue_Wolf

Well, that didn't exactly come out the best way. But you understood what I meant. I suppose? :)


-Duo

[Forest_Archer]

What is 'the end result?'

Do you mean we now have soldiers dying every day and senior citizens without medical care?

[Godmic18]

This is by far the most retarded thread on these forums. Congratulations. :dry:

I love it when people blame things on the current president. It's just so idiotic it makes me smile. Hey children, guess what? Most presidents are hated when their in office. You know what the difference between our current presidents and past war hero presidents is? The media has evolved into a whining bunch of environmentalist politically correct easily offended bunch of idiots. Hey guess what? In wars people die. Now we know it and see it on tv. Let's face it, as a country, we voted for him, so quit yer whining. Hell people started to hate JFK till he got shot. He was a womanizer who used the race to the moon as a publicity stunt. He made Clinton look like a great guy. Bah! It's early. If yer offended, feel free to slap me around a bit. :mad:

[Gnosis]

How was it wrong?

Before you continue your rant against Bush, at least look into the details of the situation.
BTW- I am a Bush hater. But I am also a ingorance hater.
Ditto.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

This is by far the most retarded thread on these forums. Congratulations. :dry:

I love it when people blame things on the current president. It's just so idiotic it makes me smile. Hey children, guess what? Most presidents are hated when their in office. You know what the difference between our current presidents and past war hero presidents is? The media has evolved into a whining bunch of environmentalist politically correct easily offended bunch of idiots. Hey guess what? In wars people die. Now we know it and see it on tv. Let's face it, as a country, we voted for him, so quit yer whining. Hell people started to hate JFK till he got shot. He was a womanizer who used the race to the moon as a publicity stunt. He made Clinton look like a great guy. Bah! It's early. If yer offended, feel free to slap me around a bit. :mad:
Hey. Guess what. You're about a day late for this thread. All the fighting's over. You got upset by a joke, and yet it's the retarded thing.

[nads]

I wish my internet had been working at home... Have to log on from school and only like once a week now. I would have had fun in this thread. t3kman I owe you rep, but I gave too much out already which surprises me since supposedly EVERYONE hates Bush according to the media (well, everyone except the chrisiian fundamentalist whack-jobs, when will they wake up and admit science>God? (sarcasm)). I always appreciate it when someone who supports Bush stands up for him because those of us in the silent majority usually stay silent. (33% approval rating, what distorted truth from our "unbiased" media) BUt I also greatly enjoy discussing the President with someone who disapproves of him as well, providing that person has their own opinion and doesn't simply regurgitate cliches like Gore won the election, Bush stole the presidency, Bush is the terrorist, insert quote here showing Bush isn't a great public speaker and then imply it means he's stupid. Someone who is informed enough to have an actual position or belief based on the facts as they interpret them as they relates to American Politics is to be respected regardless of his position, and unfortunately, it is extremely rare that I find someone meeting the above criteria from the liberal camp. Inked, I'm slowly starting to believe you may actually have an opinion based on your analysis of things and not regurgitation of media material, and am beginning to respect you more. Forest Archer, you're my bud from SI, but dang...

[The Cheat]

I just have one question for you Bush supporters:

How can you support a man who sends young men to their deaths?


So....ya.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

I wish my internet had been working at home... Have to log on from school and only like once a week now. I would have had fun in this thread. t3kman I owe you rep, but I gave too much out already which surprises me since supposedly EVERYONE hates Bush according to the media (well, everyone except the chrisiian fundamentalist whack-jobs, when will they wake up and admit science>God? (sarcasm)). I always appreciate it when someone who supports Bush stands up for him because those of us in the silent majority usually stay silent. (33% approval rating, what distorted truth from our "unbiased" media) BUt I also greatly enjoy discussing the President with someone who disapproves of him as well, providing that person has their own opinion and doesn't simply regurgitate cliches like Gore won the election, Bush stole the presidency, Bush is the terrorist, insert quote here showing Bush isn't a great public speaker and then imply it means he's stupid.
MESSAGE TRUNCATED
Aaah! Someone has killed off all the paragraphs!

[dirka dirka]

"How can you support a man who sends young men to their deaths?"

Point #1: Some things are worth dying for. We do not have a draft. Those young men who died for this country knew what they were getting into. You are not those young men. They do not have the outlook of one man sending them to their deaths. They have the outlook of fighting with their fellow Americans. If you can find me an American troop that has your outlook, do so, and we'll go further into this.

Point #2: What whould you have him do? Sit on his ass and play poker all day? When he makes a move, people complain. When he doesn't make a move, people complain. Just STFU and be happy that he is trying, complaining won't get you anywhere.

[nads]

MESSAGE TRUNCATED
Aaah! Someone has killed off all the paragraphs!

I just finished a 2 hour in class English essay immediately before I walked into the computer lab here to unwind from it a bit. The absolute LAST thing on my mind was writing properly.

The_Cheat, someone answered you earlier, but here we go again...

Remember back shortly after September 2001 when we were still fighting the Taliban and started looking over to Iraq? Remember how over 90% of the country supported the idea of going into Iraq? The information we were given at the time seemed to indicate there were WMD there, and the UN showed itself incapable of inspecting and enforcing sanctions against the dictatorship for nearly 10 years. With the information we had at that time, Bush did with it what he felt necessary to defend this country. So we didn't end up finding any WMD in Iraq, and I admit I'm a bit troubled by this fact, but that's another subject. Once we got into Iraq and discovered the corruption in the UN in regards to the Oil for Food program we saw we couldn't count on the "world government" to protect us, but we had overthrown the Iraq government and had Saddam Hussein in custody for his countless atrocities. What should we have done then, Cheat? Should we have pulled out immediately and left a corrupt UN in charge or left the fortunes of the Iraqi people to the local extremist warlords to involve in a civil war, or should we have stayed around, attempted to maintain security, to help the freedom loving Iraqi people establish a government, a constitution, and a place to live in peace? We went into Iraq with the best information we had, pulling out before peace and security is established in Iraq would be the real crime.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

"How can you support a man who sends young men to their deaths?"

Point #1: Some things are worth dying for. We do not have a draft. Those young men who died for this country knew what they were getting into. You are not those young men. They do not have the outlook of one man sending them to their deaths. They have the outlook of fighting with their fellow Americans. If you can find me an American troop that has your outlook, do so, and we'll go further into this.

Point #2: What whould you have him do? Sit on his ass and play poker all day? When he makes a move, people complain. When he doesn't make a move, people complain. Just STFU and be happy that he is trying, complaining won't get you anywhere.
Dirka...please...are you reducing yourself to arguing with The Cheat? The guy who openly admits to revenge negging (no offense, TC)? You, who advocate the pointlessness of this thread should know that that action has no merit.

Personally, I do not think there are things worth death...but that's just me...

[dirka dirka]

Dirka...please...are you reducing yourself to arguing with The Cheat? The guy who openly admits to revenge negging (no offense, TC)? You, who advocate the pointlessness of this thread should know that that action has no merit.
I'm not letting someone with an arrogant uninformed point post last.

Personally, I do not think there are things worth death...but that's just me...
You don't? If your mom was burning alive in a building, and God came to you and said "You have an option. You can save your mom. However, you must in turn die." Would you say to God, "Screw that, its not worth dying for?"

[Jehutyv.2.0]

I'm not letting someone with an arrogant uninformed point post last.Heheh...alright, proceed

You don't? If your mom was burning alive in a building, and God came to you and said "You have an option. You can save your mom. However, you must in turn die." Would you say to God, "Screw that, its not worth dying for?"
You misunderstand... because God would most likely not speak to me, I would not just die for it. I would try to stay alive, and if I lost my life in progress, at least I strived for living. Being Jewish, we have the phrase "To life". I would risk that death, with the attitude that I would live. I would not go to a war that I did not believe in and die at the hands of some terrorist... that would a cruel and callous thing to do.

[dirka dirka]

You misunderstand... because God would most likely not speak to me, I would not just die for it. I would try to stay alive, and if I lost my life in progress, at least I strived for living. Being Jewish, we have the phrase "To life". I would risk that death, with the attitude that I would live. I would not go to a war that I did not believe in and die at the hands of some terrorist... that would a cruel and callous thing to do.
Nono. You misunderstand. I doubt you'll find one person who doesn't have one thing that they would consider worth dying for. Sure, you may not think this war was, but I don't doubt something to you is worth dying for.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Nono. You misunderstand. I doubt you'll find one person who doesn't have one thing that they would consider worth dying for. Sure, you may not think this war was, but I don't doubt something to you is worth dying for.
Ah. Allow me to redefine. I would not die for a given thing. I would, however, consider risking death for things I have information about. If someone came up to me and said, "Hey, let's go sign up for this war, we could die for the country!" I'd say, "No, I would rather live for my life than die for my country."

[The Cheat]

"How can you support a man who sends young men to their deaths?"

Point #1: Some things are worth dying for. We do not have a draft. Those young men who died for this country knew what they were getting into. You are not those young men. They do not have the outlook of one man sending them to their deaths. They have the outlook of fighting with their fellow Americans. If you can find me an American troop that has your outlook, do so, and we'll go further into this.

Point #2: What whould you have him do? Sit on his ass and play poker all day? When he makes a move, people complain. When he doesn't make a move, people complain. Just STFU and be happy that he is trying, complaining won't get you anywhere.


Point 1: No war is worth dying for, Especially this one.
Point 2: Iraq posed no threat to us. There were no weapons, no trouble. All the reasons we went to war were proved false. So why stay?

Nads: So the UN is corrupt now? Right. "We went into Iraq with the best information we had, pulling out before peace and security is established in Iraq would be the real crime" Ya its a crime we destroyed their country. SO should we stay? I say no for we should have not been there in the first place.

[dirka dirka]

Ah. Allow me to redefine. I would not die for a given thing. I would, however, consider risking death for things I have information about. If someone came up to me and said, "Hey, let's go sign up for this war, we could die for the country!" I'd say, "No, I would rather live for my life than die for my country."
and many of your fellow Americans said just the inverse, "I will fight and die for this country and this countrie's dreams."

[dirka dirka]

Point 1: No war is worth dying for, Especially this one.
This is your opinion. This opinion is very confined to you. Many MANY people think against that.

Point 2: Iraq posed no threat to us. There were no weapons, no trouble. All the reasons we went to war were proved false. So why stay?
How can you justify not staying? We move out, and the entire country is in disarray. Even Bush haterss usually agree on this.

[The Cheat]

This is your opinion. This opinion is very confined to you. Many MANY people think against that.


How can you justify not staying? We move out, and the entire country is in disarray. Even Bush haterss usually agree on this.


I just thought of something. In this thread, no matter what you say, it's wrong. Whatever I say DD will attack me and say it's wrong. All i'm going to say is this: It's going to be a very, very, very long time until 2008.

Dirka dirka, I have nothing to say to you that won't get me banned. So good day.

[dirka dirka]

I just thought of something. In this thread, no matter what you say, it's wrong. Whatever I say DD will attack me and say it's wrong. All i'm going to say is this: It's going to be a very, very, very long time until 2008.

Dirka dirka, I have nothing to say to you that won't get me banned. So good day.
Just cause you don't have a valid responce? You are wrong. Many people who I disagree with arn't wrong, in this thread.

[I'malive24/7]

Hell yeah it'll be a long time until '08. Monkey man won't ever be out of office soon enough. I can't wait until the next time we vote for president...if only i was old enough. :p My entire famliy is freakishly liberal =D but, i have a feeling that everthing i say will be contradicted by every single Bush lover here, so i think I'll for the most part stay out of this thread, no matter how amazingly perfect the first post was.

[The Cheat]

Just cause you don't have a valid responce? You are wrong. Many people who I disagree with arn't wrong, in this thread.


Must you always have the last word? Must you argue everything? Can't you just walk way and leave the rest of us alone. God your so annoying. I get is you like Bush. Many don't like Bush. Let's just leave it at that. Nothing good is comming out of this thread.

[dirka dirka]

Must you always have the last word? Must you argue everything? Can't you just walk way and leave the rest of us alone. God your so annoying. I get is you like Bush. Many don't like Bush. Let's just leave it at that. Nothing good is comming out of this thread.
Why the hell would I not want to argue in a thread with an obviously open debate. If you think I'm wrong that you're wrong, SAY WHY. Don't be an asshole and just post saying how I think I'm always right.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

and many of your fellow Americans said just the inverse, "I will fight and die for this country and this countrie's dreams."
We fight not for the country, for the country is just a land mass. We fight for the people, their lives, and their safety. Are not the soldier's lives the lives of the people as well? There are too many people who would miss me if I died in battle. I believe this war can be won with minimal effort. We have the best trained warriors, the best equipment, the best intel, and the best strategies. If we lose many lives, it is not because they were dying for progress, they were dying because the bigwigs were screwin' around with their own interests.

One thing, dirka, you must surely agree on, is that the United States should not have defied the United Nations. Unless you're one of those crazy people who thinks the UN is worth crap.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Why the hell would I not want to argue in a thread with an obviously open debate. If you think I'm wrong that you're wrong, SAY WHY.
Oh man...irony so thick, you could cut it with a knife...:p

[The Cheat]

Why the hell would I not want to argue in a thread with an obviously open debate. If you think I'm wrong that you're wrong, SAY WHY. Don't be an asshole and just post saying how I think I'm always right.


You always think your right.:dry:

Your one of those people that after you meet them for the first time, you want to beat the crap out of them. You don't know why, you just do.