Witch Doctor

[Walrus]

"Leaders of primitive tribes of men, the Witch Doctors were often gifted in basic forms of magic. Exactly how they learned to wield this magic and honed their skills is unknown however, it is usually associated with forms of enchanting. The most common of a Witch Doctors tricks is to summon a wooden totem, which can somehow sense and attack nearby enemies of its own accord."

Witch Doctor

Life: 34
Armor: 0
Blocking: 40/20
Movement: 3
Power: --
Range: An empty tile up to 2 spaces away, requires Line of Sight.
Attack Pattern: Single square.
Recovery: 4

The Witch Doctor begins to summon a totem on the targetted square. To do this, he will initially enter focus. For the next 2 of your turns, he will remain in focus, each turn the totem gains 10 life (note that when summoning begins, the totem will have 10 life from the initial "attack" order) until it reaches its maximum of 30 life. If the totem is damaged during this time, but not sufficiently to totally destroy it, then it will simply remain in its damaged state after the summoning ritual is completed.
eg: after 1 turn of focus (totem at 20 life) a pyro attacks it. The totem will then have 5 life, and next turn it will be finished, and become operational with only 15/30 life.
After the 2 turns (plus intial turn to order the WD to begin summoning) are complete, the totem will be finished and the WD exits focus.
If the WD is damaged whilst summoning, his focus will be broken, and the totem will remain in its incomplete stage until the WD is able to continue building it (by selecting the unfinished totem for his "attack").
If the WD dies, all totems will also die (but not vice versa).
Finally, if the WD selects an existing totem for his attack, he will repair it for 15 life (without focus).

Totem Stats
Life: 30
Power: 13 Unblockable
Armor: 0
Blocking: 0
Recovery: 1
Attack Range/Pattern: Single target up to 4 spaces away, LOS applies.

The Totem will automatically shoot the closest enemy unit to itself (within range) every time it can (ie when not recovering). No command needs to be issued for it to do this.
If more than 1 enemy unit are equal distance from the totem, it will choose which to attack at random.
Totems cannot be healed.
Totems do not need to be killed as a victory condition.
Totems are immune to all focus effects (except being built :dry: ), but they can be harmed by abilities such as mudquake.

______________________________________

Im going to "do a xerent" here and try to quickly explain my thought process before i made this unit:

Currently, i found most units fell either into the catorgory of "early game" or "end game" depending on their stats. Yet virtually every time i played a good player, i found there tended to be a distinct phase of "mid game" where it was a matter of sitting back and waiting for somebody to make their attack. Thats what this unit is meant to be for. It provides a way of gradually bolstering your army when the game is in a stalemate, effectively forcing the enemy to come to you or risk you having enough totems to drive back his attacks.

[Executioner]

i quite like this unit. It doesnt seem to overpowered unless the ooponent leaves it be, and thats their stupid fault. Its also good for screwing over magic users as if they dont get to it quickly enough it will get murdered. Can totems be poisoned and mud quaked? Just want to check. Another good job as usual Walrus.

Exe

[Walrus]

Can totems be poisoned and mud quaked? Exe


good questions, i will update the original post;

totems are immune to all focus effects (except being built, obiously :dry:), but mudquake would damage them yes.

[Mithrandir]

Holy crap.

I've only seen two other units that used the concept of attacking without being ordered to attack in a way that was at all competent. Those two units are the Snap Dragon and (my) Guard Tower, both of which are gold and both of which are greatly inferior to this work of art.

The mid game thing is extremely important to the strategy of this unit. This is one of a very small circle of units I've liked that build things.

Best unit you've ever made. By a mile. Probably one of the top 25 units I've ever seen.

[Forest_Archer]

Yeah, I agree with Mith. This is amazing.

[JesusCraig]

Perhaps I'm missing something but it seems overpowered to me.

With a range of four, damage done independantly of attacks, and potential to have as many of them as able on the field, this unit is far too powerful. Tell me, in those games which you and your opponent stalemate is the cleric still alive? If yes, then there are positions on the board which are able to be blocked effectively and thus this unit has the capabilities of living too long and being far too effective. Not only that this unit is one of the most powerful in the game in terms of attacking. It attacks pre-battle which means its a suplementary attack booster to any player who attempts for an assault. If created in your own territory it will be easy to protect and can create hordes of these creations behind walls, I would begin each of my games creating one of these units in an area unreachable to the enemy (if the enemy is not using a rush such a place will exist, if he is using a rush he won't bother destroying this peice). You say it is to balance stalemate but if anything it will encourage stalemate, once one of these is on the field your opponent will not enter your area, you could place another totem in his path, if he stops to destroy it he will lose a turn and take 26 armor reducable damage PLUS what you can deal to him. If he ignores this totem and attacks the Witch doctor he will take 13+13+13 and unless he manage to kill the witch doctor that turn will suffer 26 more damage every two turns, which is an attack for any unit, and all your turns can be used towards preservation, thus that player can never concievably advance. Now with such a powerful tool both players are going to use it, thus neither player can advance, thus stalemate increases.

[uniquinous]

I really like the idea behind this one, but also am a bit worried about the 4 square attack range. I would say 3, and perhaps only a limited number can be on the field at a time?

I just see an unlimited number completely surrounding, say, a cleric, so you can't get within 6 squares of him without being hurt. That is to say, currently only distance units can hit it. With the stats you gave, even if a scout isn't moving, it will surely take quite a few turns to get a single totem down, especially if it's being healed, let alone multiple totems.

Overall tho this is a great idea - slight tweeking will make it game-ready. :)

[Executioner]

I disagree with with you uniquinous. Any unit is powerful if left to its own devices. If you leave a cleric alone he can potentially heal an infinite amount of hp. I think this is a great defense unit, can it be used to attack wards when they arent focussed? Also, only the witch doctor can heal thema and they only have 30 hp. I think its great walrus :)

[uniquinous]

My qualm stems not from the ability but the amount/severity. What I mean to say is, only distant units can attack this thing without being hurt (meaning the knights, assasin, mud, etc couldn't get close enough to this thing to hit it multiple times without taking damage themselves). Say a scout goes to kill a ward. He moves, shoots, waits 2 turns, shoots again. That's 4 turns. In that time another ward could be up AND the first one could be healed.

In that scenario it's not just "left to it's own devices". It's being attacked directly and still little ground is gained.

[Executioner]

I cant really see how it would be that much of a problem as you could use 2 scouts, an ambusher, charge in and quake with a muddy. There is quite alot of options and its not like a unit cant survive a hit from it as it only has 13 reducable damage. Save the walrus!!!

Exe

[Cross Punisher]

So is the totem's attack blockable?

[Executioner]

Power: 13 Unblockable

Exe

[Walrus]

Perhaps I'm missing something but it seems overpowered to me.

With a range of four, damage done independantly of attacks, and potential to have as many of them as able on the field, this unit is far too powerful. Tell me, in those games which you and your opponent stalemate is the cleric still alive? If yes, then there are positions on the board which are able to be blocked effectively and thus this unit has the capabilities of living too long and being far too effective. Not only that this unit is one of the most powerful in the game in terms of attacking. It attacks pre-battle which means its a suplementary attack booster to any player who attempts for an assault. If created in your own territory it will be easy to protect and can create hordes of these creations behind walls, I would begin each of my games creating one of these units in an area unreachable to the enemy (if the enemy is not using a rush such a place will exist, if he is using a rush he won't bother destroying this peice). You say it is to balance stalemate but if anything it will encourage stalemate, once one of these is on the field your opponent will not enter your area, you could place another totem in his path, if he stops to destroy it he will lose a turn and take 26 armor reducable damage PLUS what you can deal to him. If he ignores this totem and attacks the Witch doctor he will take 13+13+13 and unless he manage to kill the witch doctor that turn will suffer 26 more damage every two turns, which is an attack for any unit, and all your turns can be used towards preservation, thus that player can never concievably advance. Now with such a powerful tool both players are going to use it, thus neither player can advance, thus stalemate increases.


indeed, the point is that if left alone for too long, this unit has the potential to be a game-winner. but if you just sit back and fill up your turtle with totems, you wont be getting much else done by your units, presenting some easy opportunities for your opponent to get the tactical/positional advantage by taking control of most of the board effectively. your turtle may be a bit stronger, but at what cost?
these totems arent exactly hard to kill either. granted it may be considered a bit of a "waste" to devote time to killing them, and sure if there are other exposed units then go for them, however these wards can very easily fall victim to pyros, witches and dsms. the WD itself has a long recovery, so its not going to be common to be able to "spam" these totems either, even less so to create a lot of them as well as keep them from dying (remember totems cannot be healed by the cleric, only by the WD)
also, the fact that the totems require LOS means that putting a bunch inside your own turtle wont achieve much. they attack automatically, meaning no trickshots or sneaky use of LOS, its up to the attacker to simply position his units where the totems arent going to be able to hit them. in fact, the totems would still attempt to shoot a unit and perhaphs end up hitting a friendly unit due to LOS. these are factors that skilled players can easily take advantage of.
a final point to consider is that if the WD dies, so do all the totems. keeping a unit with fairly high recovery alive, when in order to be effective it needs to be fairly near the frontlines, is not that easy.



despite saying all this, i have decided to change 2 things:

1) recovery increased from 3 to 4. this is simply to make it harder to create a lot of totems all in a cluster.
2) range of WD decreased to 2. again, to prevent clustering of totems.



Holy crap.

I've only seen two other units that used the concept of attacking without being ordered to attack in a way that was at all competent. Those two units are the Snap Dragon and (my) Guard Tower, both of which are gold and both of which are greatly inferior to this work of art.

The mid game thing is extremely important to the strategy of this unit. This is one of a very small circle of units I've liked that build things.

Best unit you've ever made. By a mile. Probably one of the top 25 units I've ever seen.


mith, coming from you that means a great deal to me ;)

[JesusCraig]

Although those do help balance this unit, I'm inclined to disagree with you on many of your points. Not included in this argument will be LoS because I think that you presented your case superiorly on that given point, however the point remains less powerful due to the fact that in most scenarios the defensive player will be just as intelligent as the offensive player and not simply allow it.

Consider the fact that if you set a DMW or a pyro against this they will likely die before the totem does. In order for them to hit the totem they must be in range of said totem, which means they will be taking 26 damage before they recovery, PLUS any damage applied. The only units which can safely fight the totem are the GA and the scout.

I understand your intent was to make a unit that if it is left on the defensive is utter ruin to your opponent, but the nature of the game is a give and take, this unit will make the player with the witch doctor always be defensive, since they have one less offensive unit, and the player against the witch doctor be always offensive, precontribed roles are not strategic they are the opposite. Also consider a game in which both players use the witch doctor, it is an assured stalemate.

[Walrus]

i think this would be easiest if you said exactly what kind of scenario you believe the unit to be overpowered in, theres a lot of confusion going on in this discussion i believe.

for me, it boils down to placement of the totems.
if the totem is placed on/near the front lines:
remember that these things take 3 turns to build. within that time, you can just interrupt the WD or get off a free hit on the totem.
after the totem has been made, you can perfectly easily just avoid the thing with units that you dont want hit. you can charge a knight up to it (a knight taking all of 9-10 damage from a totem hit) and kill it pretty quickly with fairly little risk. if you have multiple units attack the totem, then it reduces the risk of the totem "nuking" a single unit, especially an unarmored one.


if the totem is inside the enemies turtle:
simply put, itll be fairly useless due to the LOS. regardless of how intelligent the player with the totem is, he cant move it or stop it attacking. getting totems to hit friendly units would discourage placing totems within a turtle. and what harm will they do there anyway? generally in a turtle game, if you can get into the turtle with a decent amount of units you stand a good chance of winning. a totem or two is very unlikely to change that (when you consider that the player sacrifices a unit for the WD).

if the totems are in a cluster:
you can just leave them alone. you dont need to kill them as a victory condition, so why bother? instead just try to nuke the WD if he comes any closer to you.


the way to counter this unit is simply to nuke it before it can really get started. 2 scouts will obliterate the WD, as well as the GA and any mages, not to mention the dragon. the WD is very weak defensively basically, which makes using him a challenge. granted, against a very good player who has mastered usage of the WD, its going to be a challenge, but this is true of any unit.

[JesusCraig]

If the totems are in an INTELLIGENT cluster, you'll never get near my WD.

The scenario I would create is a branching outward form, with my units falling backwards with each totem placement. meaning if you approach with knights they'll get nailed from multiple directions, even if you deflect one onto my units you'll maintain substantial damage. My WD will stay behind the rows and create in a pattern which alternates 2 empty and full spaces, allowing for a three tiered row with no risk and nearly all LoS shots. I can't code but if I could I would.

Not to mention 13 damage, even 9 or 10 is huge if it is used with another unit attacking as well. If there are multiple totems focusing on a single one it becomes substantial in its own right. I would definitely use this in a turtle, sure I'm down one unit but every second turn I add 13 damage to my attack or force the opponent to waste 2 turns, cumulative with a 2 recovery if I don't move.

Your nuke him strategy holds true of the cleric as well, when it is used effectively either that option is disallowed or that option is defeated by the player opposing it.

Actually the more I consider this I think I would use it in an anti-rush instead, more to come on this, I assume you've replied by now and don't want to ruin the flow of the thread.

[uniquinous]

I agree Craig. Also, it's important to note that the WD can be a full 7 squares behind the totem's range. That is to say: 4 tiles of totem range, then the tile the totem is on, and then the WD two behind that. Chances are you're not getting anywhere near him.

[Walrus]

and how long will it take you to erect this óber formation with dozens of totems spread all over the board? quite a while.
furthermore, if you start by placing totems inside and gradually work outside, you create a lot of mobility problems for your form. saying that an intelligent player wont do this is no excuse, everyone has fallen prone to realising their dragon is blocking another unit or similar. having a bunch of totems all over the place as roadblocks for your units wont be that useful.
a decent enemy can and will just position his scouts and dragon strategically enough that should you try to get near, your WD will be blasted/shot. you may be able to get a few totems up, but against an equally good player, more than 3 or so wouldnt realistically be feasible.
the WD can only be in 1 place at once, he cannot just keeping zooming around repairing, whilst simultaneously erecting new totems. the 3 turns of focus required to build present ample opportunities to disrupt the WD.
you cannot put down a totem every other turn. it requires 3 turns of focus. if you have moved, there will then be an additional turn of waiting. if you move and dont make a totem, you have 2 turns of waiting.

simply put, you will have neither time nor space enough to create a mass of totems. the opponent gets just as many turns as you do, and will (should) use them to position himself to kill the WD if he thinks you are going to try to sit back and spam totems. alternatively, he could rush you with a couple of knights or so. you wont have a massive amount of offensive units left over, so having scouts picking away at mages and the likes while you sit back making totems is the most likely scenario. if you use your turns to preserve your units (ie retreating them) then you sacrifice that board-space to the opponent. he moves up and starts taking the middleground, forcing you backwards, and you have no space to make this intricate pattern of totems.


uniq, scouts can quite easily get the WD. and if he is hiding on the back row with your cleric, he isnt going to be mass producing a lot of totems in offensive positions, is he? in this scenario you simply take out the totems at the front line.


edit: going to sleep now ;)

[Cross Punisher]

Power: 13 UnblockableExe
You don't say.:rolleyes:

[JesusCraig]

It is not as easy as you claim, how often are you able to waste valuable scout shots taking out a unit which is capable of being reproduced at a greater rate then you can kill them with a single scout? If you use dual scouts your committing both your units to the attack. You claim that I seem to ignore the fact that my opponent gets as many turns as I do, but I think your not realizing the turn advantage you gain by placing totems. They are easily destroyed in two turns (by range) but it only took me one turn to effectively create them (the beginning focus turn) the other turn I can use my other units effectively to halt your advances until I can create supporting totems. You view this unit in isolation which is bad, if your scout is recovering at most 6 spaces outside my area I still have units with teleportation I can use, muddies or dragons or wisps, or I have units with high mobility, scouts, or units which attack over the totems, GA and can effectively counter your attempts to stop me since your either focused on totems which are resummonable or the units surronding them which means my totems will be erected, and then I can retreat. Who cares if I give up the middle ground, his units can't possible cover all the middle ground from my totems and advancing units effectively.

You also don't address my concern of two players using the WD, or the fact your preconscribing this formation to defense and the opponent to offense which isn't fair.

[Executioner]

preconscribing this formation to defense and the opponent to offense which isn't fair.

I'll let walrus argue the rest but certain units in a strategy dont denote a gameplay style, its the other way round. If i want to play defensively, id have a stoney and LW and a WD. If i want to play aggresively i'll have a dsm, wisp and some other aggresive stuff. If the opponent has a WD then both of you will have to play very strategically to get the upper hand, if you have a WD and your opponent doesnt then chances are he wants to be aggresive.

Exe

[JesusCraig]

While what you say is theoretically true its not quite definitive.

Defensive units should make the enemy not want to take the offensive, currently with the frosty and furgon any enemy which takes too forward a position will be trapped and eliminated unless the attacking force produces overwhelming power, in which case the defensive will be crushed, this unit produces the opposite effect with similar means, thus it has the capabilities of forced roles. It's not likely the opponent will want to take the offensive, its NECESSARY, tell me of one other unit which requires your opponent to play the way you want him to on such a large scale and I'll concede my point, consider the power of the chanty, it forces your opponent into a style of play, yet its nature is constrained whereas this units is not, making this one overpowered.

With two people using totems the game in all likelihood would never progress since neither person can risk the attack with its stunted formattion.

[uniquinous]

uniq, scouts can quite easily get the WD. and if he is hiding on the back row with your cleric, he isnt going to be mass producing a lot of totems in offensive positions, is he? in this scenario you simply take out the totems at the front line.
if a WD produces a single totem, no scout or golem can get close enough to hit that WD without getting hurt by the totem itself. There isn't a single other unit in the game that is like that. No amount of strategy or skill will get around that simple fact: ranged units have a range of 6, the WD will be 7 away from the start of the totem's range. No unit can hit a WD behind a totem without taking damage. It is an impossibility. You can't have such an outrageous range/distance, AND have it as unblockable damage (even if it's only 13), AND have the ability to produce in infinite number, AND cause auto-damage. All of these combined lead to an unballanced unit.

[x-useme]

the units awesome!
*reps Walrus for creativity*

[Walrus]

if a WD produces a single totem, no scout or golem can get close enough to hit that WD without getting hurt by the totem itself. There isn't a single other unit in the game that is like that. No amount of strategy or skill will get around that simple fact: ranged units have a range of 6, the WD will be 7 away from the start of the totem's range. No unit can hit a WD behind a totem without taking damage. It is an impossibility. You can't have such an outrageous range/distance, AND have it as unblockable damage (even if it's only 13), AND have the ability to produce in infinite number, AND cause auto-damage. All of these combined lead to an unballanced unit.

so what if no other unit in the game has this? the cleric is the only unit that can heal. the stone golem is the only one that increases armor etc
that specific instance doesnt seem overpowered at all to me. if a WD is hiding behind a totem it isnt doing much good. so instead of a unit you are getting a totem, which on its own is worth substantially less than 1 unit slot.
this "outrageous range/distance" is a ridiculous argument. if you want to hit the WD in this specific case, you take 13 unblockable damage......so? in late game, due to its high recovery, the WD cannot outmanoever other units, meaning its a relatively simple process to simply move around the totem and hit the WD (which by the way, is a huge hole in your logic, since you are assuming all units are going to be attacking from directly in front on the totem and not from the side).


It is not as easy as you claim, how often are you able to waste valuable scout shots taking out a unit which is capable of being reproduced at a greater rate then you can kill them with a single scout? If you use dual scouts your committing both your units to the attack. You claim that I seem to ignore the fact that my opponent gets as many turns as I do, but I think your not realizing the turn advantage you gain by placing totems. They are easily destroyed in two turns (by range) but it only took me one turn to effectively create them (the beginning focus turn) the other turn I can use my other units effectively to halt your advances until I can create supporting totems. You view this unit in isolation which is bad, if your scout is recovering at most 6 spaces outside my area I still have units with teleportation I can use, muddies or dragons or wisps, or I have units with high mobility, scouts, or units which attack over the totems, GA and can effectively counter your attempts to stop me since your either focused on totems which are resummonable or the units surronding them which means my totems will be erected, and then I can retreat. Who cares if I give up the middle ground, his units can't possible cover all the middle ground from my totems and advancing units effectively.

You also don't address my concern of two players using the WD, or the fact your preconscribing this formation to defense and the opponent to offense which isn't fair.

how long the totems take to create depends entirely on your willingness to disrupt and attack the WD. if you leave him alone then yes, he can effectively make a totem for only 1 turn of action. however, if your scouts are hassling the WD, breaking his focus and wearing him down, then your opponent will be lucky to get any totems out at all.
the turns that your opponent uses the WD can be used by you to gain positional advantage if the WD isnt in a position to be attacked. positional advantage in my books is extremely important in this game. if i control the middle ground then i can force enemies back into the corner, from which point i can just snipe their weak units. the totems acting as roadblocks become a liability in this kind of scenario. and once again you are assuming that you have so many totems out, you dont have any totems to begin with, and if you try to make totems in a forward position then an enemy scout or GA can very easily attack the WD from a safe position. if you then try to attack the scout, chances are you will leave your unit in a vulnerable position.
there is no concern if both players are using one. whichever player uses his WD better and positions totems more effectively is likely to win. the worst case is it becomes a furgon-like scenario where there will be totems everywhere and possibly a stalemate. its up to the players to prevent this happening.
this unit isnt specifically designed as attack or defence. if you dont think the WD will suit your formation you dont use it, simple as that. as for conscribing the enemy to offence, all the WD is pressurise him to break the stalemate rather than you do it. this allows you more control of the situation, and therefore will have a greater chance of winning.



While what you say is theoretically true its not quite definitive.

Defensive units should make the enemy not want to take the offensive, currently with the frosty and furgon any enemy which takes too forward a position will be trapped and eliminated unless the attacking force produces overwhelming power, in which case the defensive will be crushed, this unit produces the opposite effect with similar means, thus it has the capabilities of forced roles. It's not likely the opponent will want to take the offensive, its NECESSARY, tell me of one other unit which requires your opponent to play the way you want him to on such a large scale and I'll concede my point, consider the power of the chanty, it forces your opponent into a style of play, yet its nature is constrained whereas this units is not, making this one overpowered.

With two people using totems the game in all likelihood would never progress since neither person can risk the attack with its stunted formattion.

it doesnt force your opponent to play in any way. if he really wants he can sit back and either concede a draw or wait for you to attack him. however, its unlikely he will want to do this. you are constantly assuming that no matter what, you are always going to be able to have a massive amount of totems in perfect positions everywhere on the field. against a decent opponent this shouldnt happen.
how is this units nature not constrained? it is only slightly tougher than a chanty, it has 2 range and it has to focus for 2 turns before it creates a totem which can do anything.

[Mithrandir]

I would just like to point out the effectiveness of ranged units like scouts and the GA against this thing. The totems can't heal, which means two shots from anything except a muddy strike will kill it. And while they're ward-like, unless I'm mistaken they aren't immune to melee attacks.

Yes, balance is an issue with this unit. I think it is slightly overpowered but due to the balancing weaknesses (which is real balancing, not just stat reduction to say "fine, it's balanced now") like the very low HP of the WD which make it extremely vulnerable whenever it makes the totems, the low HP of the totems which mean they will probably only get the one hit in before getting killed, the low range of the witch doctor which makes it incredibly vulnerable to attacks while it creates the totems, I think the unit is balanced enough. A furgon would have to be considered overpowered at some level, considering how effective it is with a frosty against an enemy turtle after the muddy is dead. I think this is something like an extreme version of the furgon. It's a bit complicated, even by Walrus' standards so of course it would never be put in TAO but again, that is TAO's loss, not Walrus' fault. This is a good unit anyway.

I think this is platinum worthy. I know Walrus doesn't care about the committee but even so, for the sake of the committee certifying units based simply on their value, this is worthy.

[Walrus]

I think this is platinum worthy. I know Walrus doesn't care about the committee but even so, for the sake of the committee certifying units based simply on their value, this is worthy.


heh, like one of my units would ever go platinum :p

you are welcome to submit it of course, but i dont submit my own units to the committee

[uniquinous]

Yes the cleric is the only unit to heal - my point wasn't that it has a unique ability. My problem is that it's unique ability forces any WD-attacking unit to take damage. I'm saying that in the game of TACTICS, you should be able to strategically move in such a way as to reduce or eliminate damage. The unballenced aspect comes from the range. No, most players won't have time to bring an ambusher or scout around to flank the WD, and by time they do a side totem can be up. If you reduce the range to 3 I think this unit would be much better as distance units would be able to attack the WD without mandatory damage. You should overcome the aspects that make it nearly impossible to hit the WD without almost always taking damage.

[Walrus]

My problem is that it's unique ability forces any WD-attacking unit to take damage. I'm saying that in the game of TACTICS, you should be able to strategically move in such a way as to reduce or eliminate damage.



x x x x X x x x x x x
x x x X X X x x x x x
x x X X X X X x x x x
x X X X X X X X x x x
X X X X T X X X X x x
x X X X X X X X x x x
x x X X X X X x x x x
x x x X W X x x x x x

The X's show the range of the totem. the T is the totem, the W is the witch.

anyone can see that it is perfectly easy to position a unit outside of the totems range and be able to hit the witch doctor.
and even if you couldnt, you just have to hit the totem.
and remember that if there are any units added to this then it may block the totems LOS.
and in this scenario, the witch doctor is basically sitting in one place and not doing anything else for the entire match.
how is this any different to a cleric hiding next to a LW?

lets add some units to the mixture


x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x X x X x x x x x
x x X X U X x x x x x
x x X X X U X X x x x
x x x U T X X X X x x
x x X X X X X X x x x
x x X X X X X x x x x
x x x X W X x x x x x

the totems effectiveness is reduced significantly, no?

here are some positions where your scout can be to hit the witch doctor and avoid the totem.


x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x X x X x x x x x
x x X X U X x x x x x
x x X X X U X X x x x
x S S U T X X X X x x
S S X X X X X X S x x
S S X X X X X S S S x
S S S X W X S S S S S

alternatively you can just move a unit to one of these positions


x x x x S x x x x x x
x x x X S X x x x x x
x x X X U X S x x x x
x S X X X U X X x x x
S S S U T X X X X x x
x S X X X X X X x x x
x x X X X X X x x x x
x x x X W X x x x x x

and have the totem hurt one of its own teammates.

[New Paradigm]

i think this unit rox :)

[uniquinous]

Yes, I understand your point quite well, and I'm still saying I believe it's wrong. I'm saying there should never ever be an instance in this game where 1 unit absolutely has to take damage in order to hit another. I misinterpretted your range, as clearly any distance unit would be EIGHT spaces away from the creating WD (based on your drawing).

Again here's your normal map:

O O O O X O O O O O O
O O O X X X O O O O O
O O X X X X X O O O O
O X X X X X X X O O O
X X X X T X X X X O O
O X X X X X X X O O O
O O X X X X X O O O O
O O X W X O O O O
O O X O O O O

Now put a single lightening ward on the field:
O O O X O O O O O O O
O O X X X O O x O O O
O X X X X X x x x O O
X X X X X X X x x x O
X X X T X X X L x x x
X X X X X X X x x x O
O X X X X X x x x O O
O X W X O O x O O
O X O O O O O

There's a reason we can't get two lightening wards in this game: the overlapped ranges would be overpowering. There's not a single good way to take out that WD in that setup, and that's only after a single ward is up.

No, you can't make that claim "let some other unit take damage while your scout walks in". *That* is what I'm saying should never be in this game, yet it would be needed almost everytime with this unit. Again, even if a single scout did take the time to walk all the way around and hit the WD, that scout is well behind enemy lines and won't be making it out of there alive.

There's only one type of game I see scouts rush really far in to try to take out a cleric or witch, and ultimately die in the process: noob games. Scout rushes are noob tactics. Without a more reasonable tactic to overcome this unit, it is overpowering, and unballanced.

Totems are essentially mini lightening wards: increased range, decreased strength, decreased wait time, and auto-damage. On top of that you can position them as you see fit in the game. There's a reason why lightening wards can't and shouldn't move. On top of that, you can make an unlimited number of them.

It's a very good idea, but with all of those advantages it's still poorly ballanced.

[Walrus]

the same could quite easily apply if you replaced the totem with a scout in that situation. does that make the scout imbalanced? no.
totems are not comparable to lightning wards. they have less than half the power, they cannot be healed and they can be destroyed with any type of attack. furthermore, they are far weaker and easier to kill. this is made up for by the fact that you can have multiple of them and they attack automatically.
and once again i say that you can perfectly easily just destroy the totem from a very safe position, and do the same to any other totems that are made near the front lines. you dont "have" to take damage, you can just kill the totem first?

[Cross Punisher]

x x x x X x x x x x x
x x x X X X x x x x x
x x X X X X X x x x x
x X X X X X X X x x x
X X X X T X X X X x x
x X X X X X X X x x x
x x X X X X X x x x x
x x x X W X x x x x x

The X's show the range of the totem. the T is the totem, the W is the witch.

anyone can see that it is perfectly easy to position a unit outside of the totems range and be able to hit the witch doctor.
and even if you couldnt, you just have to hit the totem.
and remember that if there are any units added to this then it may block the totems LOS.
and in this scenario, the witch doctor is basically sitting in one place and not doing anything else for the entire match.
how is this any different to a cleric hiding next to a LW?

lets add some units to the mixture


x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x X x X x x x x x
x x X X U X x x x x x
x x X X X U X X x x x
x x x U T X X X X x x
x x X X X X X X x x x
x x X X X X X x x x x
x x x X W X x x x x x

the totems effectiveness is reduced significantly, no?

here are some positions where your scout can be to hit the witch doctor and avoid the totem.


x x x x x x x x x x x
x x x X x X x x x x x
x x X X U X x x x x x
x x X X X U X X x x x
x S S U T X X X X x x
S S X X X X X X S x x
S S X X X X X S S S x
S S S X W X S S S S S

alternatively you can just move a unit to one of these positions


x x x x S x x x x x x
x x x X S X x x x x x
x x X X U X S x x x x
x S X X X U X X x x x
S S S U T X X X X x x
x S X X X X X X x x x
x x X X X X X x x x x
x x x X W X x x x x x

and have the totem hurt one of its own teammates.
:eek: I wasn't sure Walrus had the patience to go into such detail

[Walrus]

it took a while to do all of that :(

[Cross Punisher]

it took a while to do all of that :(
I didn't bother reading it. In fact I didn't bother reading a lot of stuff:(

[uniquinous]

the same could quite easily apply if you replaced the totem with a scout in that situation. does that make the scout imbalanced? no.
totems are not comparable to lightning wards. they have less than half the power, they cannot be healed and they can be destroyed with any type of attack. furthermore, they are far weaker and easier to kill. this is made up for by the fact that you can have multiple of them and they attack automatically.
and once again i say that you can perfectly easily just destroy the totem from a very safe position, and do the same to any other totems that are made near the front lines. you dont "have" to take damage, you can just kill the totem first?
You say I can't compare a totem to a ward but you compare one to a scout? No - that's even farther from right. The scout does not do unblockable auto-damage. Also, the totems CAN be healed, just not by the cleric. You make it sound as if they are the weakest little things but they're not. It would take both scouts and an ambusher all focused on the ward to take it down in a reasonable amount of time while the WD heals it, and THEN attack the WD directly. In the meantime they are all getting attacked. That's redic. Unblockable autodamage with a longer range then the LW? Come on.

[Walrus]

see now you are just exaggerating.

1) you cant say that the WD is healing the totem, and then also have the WD somehow creating more totems simultaneously. the WD heals for 15 damage and has 2 turns (at least) of recovery. any attacking unit will deal >15 damage, and except for mages, will have less recovery. you do the math.
2) it takes 2 hits to kill a fully built totem from any unit.
3) the totem can easily be killed in 1 attack while it is still being built.
4) the witch doctor can be attacked while the totem is being built without fear of reprecussion from the totem.
5) In the meantime they are all getting attacked. No. the totem attacks one of them at random every other turn. because of their range, there is no excuse for leaving a scout or GA in a exposed position while killing the totem.

[uniquinous]

5) No. the totem attacks one of them at random every other turn. because of their range, there is no excuse for leaving a scout or GA in a exposed position while killing the totem.
Right, but you still have the entirety of your remaining units to attack.

[Walrus]

Right, but you still have the entirety of your remaining units to attack.

you do, but the ranged units which you should be using to kill the totems should be quite able to stay well out of range of the majority of enemy troops.

[Sodamoeba]

Since the WD seems to have a connection with his totems, how bout you just say that he can create and control a max of 2 or 3, or maybe if a totem is hit, the WD takes 1/4 or 1/3 of the damage. Those would be good balancing factors.

[uniquinous]

yes, those would, particularly the one where he takes a % damage.

great idea

[Sodamoeba]

stole it from CP's Imperial Queen Bee. :p

[Kyir]

stole it from CP's Imperial Queen Bee. :p

/target soda
/spit

[legacy67]

This was a hard one for me, as there are a few things I did not like about the unit. I felt that the power might be bit high, the recovery time of the Totems should be higher (2), and the attack should be blockable (or is it), but you can't always have your cake and eat it too.

The saving grace for this unit was two fold.

1) The high recovery time of the Witch Doctor. This makes the placement of Totems harder than you may imagine, not to mention that this unit is exretemely vulnerable due to it's high recovery. I can see tactics for this unit similar to the Towers in Warcraft 3. They can be used both offensively and defensively, and are easily countered by ranged units. Creating multiple Totems would prove to be very hard and would be the mark of a very good player (or a very weak opponent). It is unlikely that the majority o players would create more than 1 or 2 Totems as that would sacrafice other important tactical possibilities.

2) Cleric protection. This is one of the very few units I have ever seen that could prolong the life of the cleric in a way that is not imbalanced. The GA/Muddy combo would still work well, but the Totems could act as excellent LOS blockers with a purpose. I think this would make freestyle games less about who can kill the cleric first and more about good positioning, which may be a good or bad thing, but at first thought there are more positives than negatives to this change.

All in all, this unit may be a little overpowered, but not much. The primarily defensive nature of the unit prevents this. There is potential for a stalemate, but I think that the very low HP of the unit will prevent this the majority of the time. No good player would allow this unit to go unmolested to the point that a stalemate is possible. I have my reservations on certain areas of this unit (see above), but in all I think it would add an interesting element to gameplay.

P.S. Even though I know you don't care about the committee (/understatement), I thought you should know that I voted Yes on this unit.

[Walrus]

<snip to save space ;) >

P.S. Even though I know you don't care about the committee (/understatement), I thought you should know that I voted Yes on this unit.

indeed, im not actually concerned in the slightest whether my units go gold or not, i prefer to hear opinions and discussion about them to fuel my ego.

[Mithrandir]

CAU has gone to hell so it’s time for some MVU (most valuable unit) bumps. All you CAU noobies, take a look at these threads. These are all marvelously creative and interesting units, something that does not exist anymore. Considering I can’t just hope someone makes a good unit, all that’s left is to bump some old favorites. I’ve always been an aggressive flamer of self-bumps, so I haven’t bumped any of my own. These are all excellent units though.

Granted, none of them perfect and perhaps if they were put into the game these days, they would all have problems. We’ll never know. But they are at least interesting reads in theory, which is all we can do in CAU: theorize. Make your units interesting to think about. Make your readers fantasize about being able to use your unit in a game. And for crying out loud, think outside the box!