Stone Incarnate

[Cross Punisher]

I don't usually post my ideas so spontaneously but who cares

STONE INCARNATE
"Battles rarely take place in different environments meaning one battle field may have hosted tens upon hundreds of battles each composed of the deaths of many warriors. Some of these warrior's spirits are unable to rest and travel to the surface when the ground is disturbed. Unable to regain their flesh and blood bodies, they take on the form of various rocks, and are known simply as Stone Incarnate."

STATISTICS
HP: 36
Power: 2 x Number of endgame units your opponent has
Armor: 2 x Number of endgame units you have
Movement: 3
Recovery: 0

Special Abilities:
Counts as 0 units on the field
Doesn't count as an endgame unit

INFORMATION
The Stone Incarnate(SI) doesn't attack, it only moves. When the SI is attacked it counter attacks the unit that attacked it regardless of range, and the damage is not armor reducible. Counter attacking adds 1 to the SI's recovery, and the SI is unable to counter attack if recovering

It's a simple unit with a simple purpose.

[Walrus]

why bother killing it at all? its not and endgame unit and it can do sweet FA unless you attack it.

also, im not a big fan of units that count as 0 units...i always think of that as something that changes the fundamental balance of the game in a bad way.

[Deck of Jesters]

It doesn't do anything... it's a single shrub who counters the unit that attacks it, and gets weaker and weaker as time goes on :( Like Walrus said, why bother to attack it?

[legacy67]

I'm thinking about it, but I see the main use of this as a deterent. It is great for LOS blocking and a good defensive turtle unit. You can also pace it strategicly to counter DSM attacks. I really see the main use of this as to stop scout attacks. Since the effective use of this becomes so poor after the Scouts are gone, I am not sure how I feel about it, but the concept is cool.

[JesusCraig]

Whats it matter if its purpose is limited, it doesn't cost anything.

By nature the cost of a unit (usually one unit space in a formation) must be balanced by its usefulness.

So if this unit cost 0, then it would be used even if its usefulness was practically zero, if for no other reason then a place blocker.

There is no reason to not use this unit. Thus everyone would use it.

[uniquinous]

yeah he has a point - everyone would just have an 11th item on the board to start with. No, all units should cost. After reading this I am hoping someone will come up with a unit that, for example, does 1.5 times the damage to whoever hurts it, but can't be healed (or perhaps only half healed?). Thus it's a great LOS blocker/deterent, and a great end-game obstacle to overcome. I dunno, I'm no unit-maker - I think i'll stick to critiquing.

[Cross Punisher]

why bother killing it at all? its not and endgame unit and it can do sweet FA unless you attack it.

also, im not a big fan of units that count as 0 units...i always think of that as something that changes the fundamental balance of the game in a bad way.
There is no reason to kill any unit that isn’t an endgame unit.
I don’t see a limit of 10 units on the field as something fundamental to the game. As more varied units are created something must be done because some units will be inherently superior to others and yet inferior to others. By making us select such few units, it’s more a strategy of choosing the right combination of units before hand, and then once the battle begins someone already has a clear advantage over the other.

It doesn't do anything... it's a single shrub who counters the unit that attacks it, and gets weaker and weaker as time goes on
Like Walrus said, why bother to attack it?
Correct, it does nothing but it also doesn’t take up any of your unit space.
You wouldn’t bother to attack it. It’s more of a deterrent like legacy said. You could put this into a cluster of your turtle, and when you get bombed by a witch, the SI will automatically do 20 damage, and then it’s your turn. Or you could put this in the spot as to protect your cleric from witch burn without actually putting one of your knights or LW into unneeded range of your opponent. It’s a place holder useful for filling up any one spot or block any one LOS shot or opening in you setup.

I'm thinking about it, but I see the main use of this as a deterent. It is great for LOS blocking and a good defensive turtle unit. You can also pace it strategicly to counter DSM attacks. I really see the main use of this as to stop scout attacks. Since the effective use of this becomes so poor after the Scouts are gone, I am not sure how I feel about it, but the concept is cool.
Correct. We’ve all had setups where we’ve wished we could block off that one opening of LOS without compromising the position of certain units… now you can.

Whats it matter if its purpose is limited, it doesn't cost anything.

By nature the cost of a unit (usually one unit space in a formation) must be balanced by its usefulness.

So if this unit cost 0, then it would be used even if its usefulness was practically zero, if for no other reason then a place blocker.

There is no reason to not use this unit. Thus everyone would use it.
Exactly (Except for a select group of people)

yeah he has a point - everyone would just have an 11th item on the board to start with. No, all units should cost. After reading this I am hoping someone will come up with a unit that, for example, does 1.5 times the damage to whoever hurts it, but can't be healed (or perhaps only half healed?). Thus it's a great LOS blocker/deterent, and a great end-game obstacle to overcome. I dunno, I'm no unit-maker - I think i'll stick to critiquing.
I, uh, made a unit that returns from 6% all the way to 66% of the damage done.



There’s only one major natural flaw that I can see, and if you guys can’t see it, then there’s no reason for me to make it known, but I guest props to the person that figures it out.

I see it as a placeholder more than anything else. Since it counts as 0 units everyone should be able to use it, but it does nothing except take up space. But when you really think about it, is just taking up space such a bad thing? Don’t tell me you haven’t dreamed of ever being able to have more than 10 units on the field.

To avoid making the unit overpowered I couldn’t give it an attack of it’s own because of the simple fact that it counts as 0 units. However being that it does count as 0 units, I theoretically could give it an attack that would be balanced for a unit that cost 1 units, and who’s fault would it be for not using a unit which costs nothing in the first place, but again I abstained from doing this because of the natural flaw I see in the unit.

[JesusCraig]

I guess this is just a matter of unreconcilable preferences, I take the limit ten rule to be a stationary rule, whereas you take it to be a fluid rule which should have the potential to be broken, both are fine theories and since each person has the ability to use this unit it is fair (although as always I'm against a unit which everyone will use simply because there is no detrimental effects of using said unit).

[uniquinous]

yeah i wanted more then 10 units on the field, but if everyone had 11 then people would just want a 12th. A flaw in your unit, whether good or not, is still a flaw. It's better to air it now, then later.

[Walrus]

maybe having more than 10 units is something that could happen, but i maintain my stance on units dont count as any units at all.
basically you are just giving literally everyone one of these things for nothing. there is no element of choice about it, you can use this with no downside, so thats what you do. this concept just strikes me as totally wrong. imo, every unit of your formation should be one that you think about and put it to benefit your form. creating a strong form is one of my favorite parts of the game, and so unit selection is vital. building up a "perfect" formation, specifically selecting certain units to make the form viable against any opposition. simply slapping an extra unit in "because theres no reason not to" seems to defeat the point of this in my view.

[Cross Punisher]

yeah i wanted more then 10 units on the field, but if everyone had 11 then people would just want a 12th. A flaw in your unit, whether good or not, is still a flaw. It's better to air it now, then later.Why make it known if no one cares?

maybe having more than 10 units is something that could happen, but i maintain my stance on units dont count as any units at all.
basically you are just giving literally everyone one of these things for nothing. there is no element of choice about it, you can use this with no downside, so thats what you do. this concept just strikes me as totally wrong. imo, every unit of your formation should be one that you think about and put it to benefit your form. creating a strong form is one of my favorite parts of the game, and so unit selection is vital. building up a "perfect" formation, specifically selecting certain units to make the form viable against any opposition. simply slapping an extra unit in "because theres no reason not to" seems to defeat the point of this in my view.ALMOST everyone gets one, and yes they cost nothing, but if everyone has one, then the strategy is more on using the unit well in game instead of choosing the right unit to include in your setup. Thats the downside to a unit like this: What if your opponent used their SI better than you. Instead of being able to complain about losing because he had "this unit" which is very effective against "your unit" you'd have nobody to blame but yourself for being out matched by someone who used a unit better.

[Walrus]

ALMOST everyone gets one, and yes they cost nothing, but if everyone has one, then the strategy is more on using the unit well in game instead of choosing the right unit to include in your setup. Thats the downside to a unit like this: What if your opponent used their SI better than you. Instead of being able to complain about losing because he had "this unit" which is very effective against "your unit" you'd have nobody to blame but yourself for being out matched by someone who used a unit better.

maybe so, but then you are really beginning to make a different game to TAO ^^

[Deck of Jesters]

oOo, lol, the whole 0 unit concept is so... different... I never even caught onto it, lol. I still don't like the idea for these reasons:

A. It would just an item on the board that will never die, because nobody would ever attack it
or
B. It would render certain units hard/impossible to ever use (DSM would be rendered fairly weaker due to a sudden disappearance of possible attack locations, Scouts would be hard to use to kill some of the "softer" targets, Muddie's Mud Quake would be considerably less effective, etc.)

As a Turtler, I love this unit... but I do not believe it has any form of balancing factors to it. It essentially makes it impossible to deal a significant amount of damage to a Turtle.

[Cross Punisher]

A. It would just an item on the board that will never die, because nobody would ever attack itThat’s not really a problem with the “Counts as 0 units” concept. That’s more of a problem concerning the fact that it’s not an endgame unit. Your exact same statement could be said about a LW or BW.

B. It would render certain units hard/impossible to ever use (DSM would be rendered fairly weaker due to a sudden disappearance of possible attack locations, Scouts would be hard to use to kill some of the "softer" targets, Muddie's Mud Quake would be considerably less effective, etc.)Since you said a DSM I’m going to assume you’re talking about a bomb. A bomb is not interested with the preservation of its units. Its purpose is to do more damage faster than you can return. When bombing your comfortable with the fact that you’ll be sacrificing weak mages one by one to do large amounts of damage to bunched up units.

It essentially makes it impossible to deal a significant amount of damage to a Turtle.No it doesn’t. The SI doesn’t stop your opponent from attacking your turtle at all, the SI just deters your opponent from including the SI in their attack.

Also take into account that the SI can only counter attack it’s attacker when it’s not recovering and that counter attacking adds one recovery, though I can understand everyones complaint... not that I'd conform to their beliefs.:cool:

[Sodamoeba]

If there is one thing I stole from Legacy (trust me, there's more), its whether or not a unit would be more or less useful than any of the other units in my form. Seeing as how this unit completely destroys that view point, Sodamoeba's reviewing program is completely thrown off balance. Thus, my review is:

0

[Cross Punisher]

maybe so, but then you are really beginning to make a different game to TAO ^^
Hmm, a game similar to TAO and yet different at the same time. Makes you sort of wonder.:rolleyes:

If there is one thing I stole from Legacy (trust me, there's more), its whether or not a unit would be more or less useful than any of the other units in my form. Seeing as how this unit completely destroys that view point, Sodamoeba's reviewing program is completely thrown off balance. Thus, my review is:

0
Glad I broke your scale

[ko71991]

Wait... So... It doesn't attack unless it gets attacked, and it doesn't count as a unit so why attack it anyway?

[uniquinous]

Why make it known if no one cares?
Erm, because I care.

Also, as stated, having this unit not add to total count basically forces everyone to put it on their board. After all, who would want to be the dumbtard who just doens't use a free unit that also needs to be killed? As soon as you essentially force people into using your unit, you are ruining a large aspect of this game. Sodameoba is correct in his argument tho i dont agree with the number.

[Executioner]

units have to have a cost, otherwise its as uniquinous said, everyone would have to use one or be stupid. Nice idea though.

Exe

[TurtleKaze]

I like the idea to an extent... I don't like that the unit can attack or move, but I love the zero unit cost. I have always secretly wished that we would be allowed 1 more unit (11). This is because with 11 units, you can block all scout LOS and wisp access to your cleric from the start of the game. All you would have to worry about is the GA/mud combo specifically. When that is the only threat, it is much easier to defend against. A single shrub (not shrub patch) that we could initially place in our starting position would be enough to make me happy, but something with a little HP would be fine as well.

[legacy67]

It is the specific weakness that Turtlekaze mentions that make the game great. A good player can defend against scout LOS in a way that makes the opponent have to think hard about the planned course of action. The balance between defense and offense is actually quite good at the moment.

[Executioner]

The balance between defense and offense is actually quite good at the moment.

^^ Completely wrong. Its all offense offense offense unless you state a turt game. Everyone attacks. Anti rushing is still pretty agressive.

Exe

[legacy67]

Not at all. Ths game is meant to be offensive. If the game was too strong defensively then it would take wayyy to long on a regular basis (think of freestyle taking as long or longer than turtles). The balance should lean to offense, moving each match forward. There are many good defensive players who win games based upon their superior defensive strategy (see 12). The only real defensive need is that of protecting the cleric, and some players do that quite well. i will agree that the GA makes that much much harder, but that's just the way the game has developed.

[TurtleKaze]

I would have to agree with Exe in that the game is currently more in favor of the attacker. I just want to see attacks "formulated" rather then unavoidable from turn 1. It's too easy to kill a cleric these days... Vs a same side GA, Mud, wisp and scout I have no choice but to counter attack and hope to kill the opposing cleric to survive. I don't think it would hurt to slow the game down a bit, you would see a larger variation of strategies. Also fewer game outcomes would be determined by "guessing" where the cleric is going to be.

[Cross Punisher]

Wait... So... It doesn't attack unless it gets attacked, and it doesn't count as a unit so why attack it anyway?
You don’t attack it
Erm, because I care.

Also, as stated, having this unit not add to total count basically forces everyone to put it on their board. After all, who would want to be the dumbtard who just doens't use a free unit that also needs to be killed? As soon as you essentially force people into using your unit, you are ruining a large aspect of this game. Sodameoba is correct in his argument tho i dont agree with the number.
So you care huh? The main problem I see with this unit is that I think we can all agree that any new unit will be only for gold account members, so that presents the problem of golds being able to have a total of 11 units on the field while greys can still only have 10. Though the SI itself presents you little threat, it is kind of unfair to further extend the gap from grey to gold.

You are capable of using a total of 10 unit spaces for your setup. Doesn’t this force everyone to use 10 units if they want any chance of winning because anyone with a brain will use the total allotted unit spaces? Does this ruin the game? I think instead it MAKES the game. The game forces people to use at least 1 unit in their setup, but are you going to win a game without using the total possible units? Not likely. Are people forced to use this unit? No though they are considered “dumbtard”ed for not using something for the price of nothing. Also the SI DOESN’T need to be killed to win.
units have to have a cost, otherwise its as uniquinous said, everyone would have to use one or be stupid. Nice idea though.
Everyone has to use some combination of units or they are indeed stupid, but if something costs nothing but is limited it does indeed have a measurable cost. If everyone has 1 and only 1 that almost everyone is capable of using, it can be seen as having a cost of 1 unit.
I like the idea to an extent... I don't like that the unit can attack or move, but I love the zero unit cost. I have always secretly wished that we would be allowed 1 more unit (11). This is because with 11 units, you can block all scout LOS and wisp access to your cleric from the start of the game. All you would have to worry about is the GA/mud combo specifically. When that is the only threat, it is much easier to defend against. A single shrub (not shrub patch) that we could initially place in our starting position would be enough to make me happy, but something with a little HP would be fine as well.
It doesn’t really “attack.” It just counter attacks when attacked. There is also what could be consider a serious problem concerning adding more unit spaces, and that is once again the grey account users. Greys only have a total of 12 units, so if the total possible units allowed on the board increased to 11 or 12, there would be little to no strategy required when making a grey setup, which could lead to lesser reliance on luck and more reliance on actual skill. Your idea of a singe shrub has the same purpose though limited potential, and that would have been considered “Editing an Existing Unit” which is strictly forbidden in the forums :rolleyes: .

On the offensive vs. defensive debate, I think that a defense should be able to stand it’s own ground effectively against an offensive opposing force. In medieval times, an armies only hope of taking down an opponent’s castle was to cut off all supplies to the castle as the castle was just to formidable to penetrate.

P.S. - Description added