The Assassin's Dilemma [Archive] - Tactics Arena Community Forums

Ice_Prison

11-09-2005, 06:13 PM

Say you're a battling in a Grey Turtle match and you managed to get the right conditions to the assassin combo.

You assassin has 2 choices to bomb: a Lightning Ward or a Knight, and it can kamkazee into only one of them.

Which one would you go for, LW or Knight? And how about when it's still early game, where the enemy formation hasn't broken much?

Servant

11-09-2005, 06:17 PM

l-ward. it is a huge blow to their deefense and is rarely killed anyother way

Anarchy_United

11-09-2005, 06:32 PM

Depends, but mostly i would take out the Knight

deleryn

11-09-2005, 06:43 PM

It does depend. It's really about if you want to try and get his defense down or kill a unit that could cause trouble, later. The problem with taking the lightning ward is that it isn't too difficult to get around it, but the problem with taking the knight is that a guy can keep weak units near the lightning ward to make you pay for getting them.

But, if it doesn't depend too much, I usually just like to take the knight to put myself in the sort of situation where I can at least get a draw easier. It's tough for most people to strategize an attack well because they have to put their units into position while they're trying to kill mine.

_Rogue_

11-09-2005, 07:11 PM

Knight, 9 times out of 10.

Noda

11-09-2005, 07:15 PM

yeh, its deffinetly all according to the situation.

perosnnaly, unless i can get 2 units or a scout ill just bward or try to keep her alive long enough to cause problems.

if theres many units on the table, lward
few units knight.

skylore

11-09-2005, 08:14 PM

perosnnaly, unless i can get 2 units or a scout ill just bward or try to keep her alive long enough to cause problems.

*agreed* but if i had no B-ward for some reason I would look at the formation and my formation. most of the time for me the only thing standing inbetween me and the opponets priest is the barier ward (always where i need to more my dark witch so if i had that oppertunity i would take out the Lightning ward) but but if say the set up went something like
[K][LW][K] (just a random set up that would give you those 2
'[S][PY][DW] opptions)
[E][C] [PY]
i would go for the knight to take out more of his damage, it really all depends on their setup imo.

Vader13

11-09-2005, 08:31 PM

Basically, what you're going to have to do, is analyze both setups, and go from there. Analyze the way your opponent plays. If he/she seems to use the LW as a defense, to keep melee units away,(such as a knight or an assassin) I'd go for the LW, making the other units more vulnerable to attack. If the LW isn't being used as some type of pretection (and you find yourself having to rush his/her turt) and then being killed by knights, go for the knight. It really depends on the type of play, number of units on the feild, and other circumstances, but those two are the most random I can think of. Good luck with your "dilema" and maybe we can battle sometime, and see how you do analyzing the situation.

banditto

11-09-2005, 08:50 PM

Didn't you read Bottles Strategy guilde? Assassin < Knight

Easy trade! Killing a unit with 50 health that can attack every other turn, compared to a unit that attacks every 4 turns. Come on, without a knight in the early game for him, your scout should enjoy every minute of the game!

Vader13

11-09-2005, 09:17 PM

He makes a very good and valid point...or...should I say...bottle makes a very good and valid point. Still though, I would look at what he is doing and go from there. About 80% of the time I would take the knght.

EDIT- I'm assuming you also summed up what bottle said in your post, but if not, could you provide a link to that please?

Ice_Prison

11-10-2005, 12:59 AM

Thanks everyone for your replies.

So I guess the consensus to the dilemma is to take the Knight most of the time, unless the LW presents a major threat to your efforts in rushing. All this is dependent on the situation of both player's formations, if the enemy's formation is extremely defensive (it has a Chanty + BW) it'll probably be wise to take out the LW so you can charge right in without fear or interruption.

Vader13, here's the link to Bottle's guide:

Click me (http://tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13311&highlight=strategy+guide)

Bottle

11-10-2005, 07:40 AM

As with any choice, it does depend on the situation. However, I consider a LW kill to be almost useless unless you have witches and pyros ready to move in. And even then, you can just kill the LW with the witches and pyros. Killing a knight gives you very definite advantages.

However, personally I would instead of picking one of them immediately, I would barrier the assassin and leave it there as a threat. That way you might even get 2 units later on if your opponent isn't careful. Or maybe even get the scout, which is a much bigger prize.

urania

11-10-2005, 08:19 AM

Or maybe even get the scout, which is a much bigger prize.

or 2 scouts, which is the main prize :D (such bombings are really unforgetable ^.^)

anyway, it indeed greatly depends on the situation... I normally use the sassy bomb on a lw only if I can take down a knight with it too though... as other players already said, the best thing is to bw sassy and wait for the right opportunity ^^

I personaly don't use sassy bomb to kill only one unit... unless I can afford sacrificing units...and that again depends on the situation :p

-No_Sacrifice-

11-10-2005, 08:50 AM

I'd have to disagree with bottle's strategy. Now, if i had more units, say another knight or a mage of some kind, i would attack the knight. ;) But if the lighting ward was protecting something i would go for it every time.

Bottle

11-10-2005, 09:48 AM

LWs are very highly overrated. Given the choice of bombing a BW or a LW, I'd choose the BW.

RKO21

11-10-2005, 11:21 AM

EDIT: Cleared!

Match Strike

11-10-2005, 12:51 PM

I'd also choose the Barrier Ward Bottle, but the question was whether you would choose a Knight or a Lightning Ward:)

The condtions specified were early game. OK. Now, it is rare you'll get this kind of oppurtunity in an opposite corners turtle game, but if you did, knight ids the obvious choice, since most attacking is going to be done from the flank anyways.

Same side, however, I'd choose Lightning ward, unless I was already down a knight. Of course if possible, I'd barrier her, get my scout in a safe position, where he could easily move out front, then bomb Lightning ward. Scout would only have to worry about knights, and maybe a witch, and of course he could be barriered. I'd then make a show of going at him from the front, while I send an assassin/knight around to the flank to do the real damage.

Of course that's all hypothetical.

Either way though, the death of a lightning ward is a large pyschological blow to a player, it being one of their main defenses (the main defense, if they don't have a barrier ward).

banditto

11-10-2005, 02:16 PM

Funny story, I was on legends yesterday playing with my grey vs some gold that was turtling same side. It came down to my bw lw, cleric, scout, 3 knights + chanty vs his 2 knights, assn, cleric, scout and ambusher. I had to spent at least 30 turns to kill his lw too move in with my knights to kill his scout and cleric before he surrendered when he could have easily killed mine with his ass bomber.

So I guess situation will matter a bit more than I thought, if I hadn't killed the lw, we would have been at a stand off.

generalx

11-10-2005, 04:55 PM

um newbish question but what hp can you bomb your assasin with? And how do you do it? I had an assasin with 4 hp and I could only attack the other guy (doing 18 dmg)

urania

11-10-2005, 05:01 PM

read the assasin strategy under FAQ...

Office_Shredder

11-10-2005, 05:05 PM

I would almost always take the knight... it's real simple:
If you have less attacking (mobile) units than your opponent, you don't want to get even farther behind
If you have more attacking units than your opponent, you don't want him to catch up
If you're tied, you don't want to give your opponent the edge

Bottle

11-10-2005, 05:44 PM

Same side, however, I'd choose Lightning ward, unless I was already down a knight. Of course if possible, I'd barrier her, get my scout in a safe position, where he could easily move out front, then bomb Lightning ward. Scout would only have to worry about knights, and maybe a witch, and of course he could be barriered. I'd then make a show of going at him from the front, while I send an assassin/knight around to the flank to do the real damage.

Either way though, the death of a lightning ward is a large pyschological blow to a player, it being one of their main defenses (the main defense, if they don't have a barrier ward).
First things first, if you have an a-bomb primed and use it then you're not going to be sending an assassin round the flank to do any damage at all. :)

And if I was foolish or unlucky enough to allow my opponent to prime an a-bomb, I'd be delighted to see them waste it on my LW. Knights form just as effective a wall. All it means is that you have to centre your defense back a little, which is only a problem if the witch or pyros are still around.

The obvious answer, as I said before, is: neither. Barrier her and get either 2 knights or a scout with it. :)

Servant

11-10-2005, 05:56 PM

well of corse i'd barrier it if i could. i was going with the given conditions. the question was knight or lward.

Realist

11-10-2005, 06:43 PM

Knight, 99 times out of 100. Knights are simply better units than LWs.

Office_Shredder

11-10-2005, 06:52 PM

Why blow up anything at all? Just suicide and hope the explosion convinces the noob of your admin powers, then tell him to press F5 ;)

iownu4money

11-10-2005, 08:20 PM

i would have to take the oppentents knight for only 1 reason. u can use ur pyro or ranger to get there units around the l-ward.

banditto

11-10-2005, 08:58 PM

Don't you know that a knight can rush in and kill at least 2 mage units? I mean come on. Hes a freaking tank! Plus if you waste a mobile unit for one that can't move, your down a fighter. more fighters > Less fighters most of the time.

caxtell

11-14-2005, 01:46 AM

Knight unless you have no ranged left and the opponent does. Knights take forever to kill and getting a nuke on one throws end-game massively in your favor.

What is an L-Ward gonna mess up that a knight wont jack up twice as fast?

Lonely Tylenol

11-14-2005, 05:28 AM

It depends strongly on the situation.

If it is earlier in the game and you are in a more aggressive position, bomb the Lightning Ward. This takes away your opponent's strongest deterrent early in the game where it's more needed and allows you to efficiently charge your opponent from either the front or the side flanks without serious trouble, or forcing your opponent to compensate for the lack of their deterrent or, in some situations most importantly, put them in an aggressive position and often out of their element.

If you're in a defensive position or are later in the game, every mobile unit counts. Knocking the Knight leaves your opponent shorthanded on the offense, or down a critical unit when they don't have many others to fall back on. By this principle, you can easily deter the remaining attackers and force your opponent into a defensive position, thus giving you the upper hand provided you can co-ordinate your own units.

However, all of this is moot if you can nab their Scout. :happy:

mantis33

11-14-2005, 05:39 AM

I agree with LT. And since I play a mainly defensive game, I would take out the knight because I don't have much trouble evading the LW in most cases. But good question! :)

~mantis33

Pirate

11-14-2005, 07:31 AM

Bottle

11-14-2005, 09:38 AM

Lonely Tylenol

11-14-2005, 06:47 PM

Here's a further point no one has considered yet. If it's an opp side turtle match, then no one would ever choose the LW, right? Well if the match is same-side, LWs are generally exactly opposite from each other, meaning you'd have to either BW your LW or bomb the LW from the side in order to keep your own LW as well. Now in the opening of the game, how often can you move next to the LW without running nto a knight as well? Very rarely, I'd have said. And it would be even more rare that you also have a knight in range on its own as well.

Frankly, I don't see any common situation where you actually have this choice, thinking about it.

Spread vs. turtle:

LW is a heavy deterrent to the frontal flank when your forces are divided to cover two different flanks. The Assassin Bomb eliminates that deterrent, allowing you to act less cautiously when attacking the frontal flank by eliminating the largest active threat to whatever unit you send that way.

:yes3:

Bottle

11-14-2005, 07:14 PM

Yeah, but spreads suck. :)

EmelGreenLeafer

11-14-2005, 07:17 PM

Hmmm, how about add a pole to this?. but anyways, i'll choose the LW. because i will just ruin their defence, and i can now go in and take out their cleric with my amazing scout skill :bigsmile:......right....... anyways, yeah i'll choose the LW.

Swordz

11-14-2005, 07:20 PM

I'd probably go for the knight later in the game, and the l-ward earlier in the game only because of this: Early in the game, L-Ward is more vital because of the movement. When the feild is still full of players, it is hard to manuver between them all and still steer clear of the l-ward. But later in the game, knight all the way because l-ward is easier to keep away from.

But assassin bombing a single knight is a waste, always go for group kills ;)

emerald slasher

11-14-2005, 08:37 PM

Mitosis

11-14-2005, 08:52 PM

Depends, but mostly i would take out the Knight

I would agree with you. The LW does deal great damage, but has a long waiting turn. He doesn't even count as a player on the field. I'd go for the knight.

Bottle

11-14-2005, 08:59 PM

ok heres a tricky hypothetical one

your same sides with an opponent...ass bomb is set

you can either bomb your lward and his lward
or you can bomb his knight and your knight (all units are full health)

u cannot barrier due to a wait

and if u do anything (run included u will be killed by a scout or pyro or witch

wat do u choose?
If I was up a unit, I'd probably bomb both knights. Especially if I still had a cleric or outranged my opponent.

If I was down a unit, I'd not use my bomb and instead look for another advantage while he kills the assassin.

banditto

11-14-2005, 09:49 PM

Bots on fire! Ouch!

I agree with whatever bottles says because Bottle is my hero.

BlackSyphon

11-14-2005, 09:51 PM

LWs are very highly overrated. Given the choice of bombing a BW or a LW, I'd choose the BW.

I don't know about that, since you don't need unblockable attacks to damage a BW, I find the LW to be harder to destroy, especially because of armor and high health. Again, it depends, if your opponent has a chanty left and its their only hope, then possibly I would take out the BW...or both :p

I am gonna have to say, with a very strong opinion that EARLY in the game, given the choice to kill an LW or knight, I will definately take the knight. Many reasons on this side:

1. Knights can move!
2. Knights can do 22 dmg every 2 turns!
3. You don't lose if they are all you have left!
4. They are goddamned hard to kill any other way unless frozen!
5. The chance of your units being attacked[/a] by an [u]incoming knight beats LW 1:0 :p

My 2 cents. I won't list the cons, simply because they have already been said. The most significant being endgame where LWs become hiding posts. But with a witch or better yet an archer...you win!

du