Schools and God

[Vie]

I have heard of the government trying to take away the "God Bless" section in the ...... I don't know what all the patriotic things are called?

Anyways, can someone help me with that? Also, what do you guys think should they take "God Bless" out?

[dirka dirka]

"In God we trust" was made our national credo by congress. This is why they argue that it has nothing to do with religion, but it has everything to do with history and stuff. Never the less, seperation of church and state says this is unconstitutional.

Honestly, I don't believe in God. I also don't give a shit if a few people in our government do and want to impose their beliefs. They arn't forcing me to say it. They are forcing me to see it. However, there are much worse things we are forced to see.. murder, for one.

[Cuathon]

if they start trying to make me say the pledge of allegiance(with the god part)(sp?) in school like they did in some other ones i know im gonna tell them to shove it up their
***. and im gonna ignore it wehn they suspend me. if you want some religious instruction go to a catholic or other religious school.

[fastbow]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof



Hmm.... Forget that last clause sometimes?

Leave it in. Without God, we are nothing.

[roamingstorm]

ok in the last three hours you have succeeded on getting on my shit list, now this is no small feat, very few people are on my shit list

[dirka dirka]

I never say it in school. They can't force you to. If they try, and especially if they suspend you for not doing it, you'll have a great case in court.

[Kyir]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof



Hmm.... Forget that last clause sometimes?

Leave it in. Without God, we are nothing.

Without god we're better

(I just started a religious argument, didn't I?)

plus that dosn't force a religion on people or prevent them from worshipping/praying or anything like that, IT simply would cause a 'more' religious free goverment, which is better

[dirka dirka]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof



Hmm.... Forget that last clause sometimes?

Leave it in. Without God, we are nothing.
... the last part is nothing. That says they won't prevent people from doing what they want when it comes to religion. It has nothing to do with this. The first part says they can't impose their beliefs on others, in the case of religion. Without God, we are human.

[fastbow]

... the last part is nothing. That says they won't prevent people from doing what they want when it comes to religion. It has nothing to do with this. The first part says they can't impose their beliefs on others, in the case of religion. Without God, we are human.

Then, if there is no God, why do we need any form of law?
The animals function perfectly with no law...

[Kyir]

Then, if there is no God, why do we need any form of law?
The animals function perfectly with no law...

because without law people do stuff that shouldn't be done, once civilized (sp?), it's hard to live without it

[cuckoo]

Then, if there is no God, why do we need any form of law?
The animals function perfectly with no law...

If you like anarchy...

In any event, you have to remember that an increasing number of people these days are aetheist or at not christian.

[fastbow]

because without law people do stuff that shouldn't be done, once civilized (sp?), it's hard to live without it

If there is no God, why should I be accountable to anyone, especially another man?

[Kyir]

If there is no God, why should I be accountable to anyone, especially another man?

because I said said so

[dirka dirka]

Then, if there is no God, why do we need any form of law?
The animals function perfectly with no law...
You're confused. Humans have free will. Governments take some of that free will in exchange for protection and order. The animals have law, this isnt relevant at all, but there is a hierarchy.

[cuckoo]

If there is no God, why should I be accountable to anyone, especially another man?

Because humans set up a law with courts and all those goodies.

[fastbow]

Because humans set up a law with courts and all those goodies.

I will set up my own law, then. The chief tenent of this law will be to crap on your doorstep, every morning. Under pain of death, of course.

Without a reason to follow any one man, all reason for law becomes lost, and we have a messed up form of anarchy...

[cuckoo]

I will set up my own law, then. The chief tenent of this law will be to crap on your doorstep, every morning. Under pain of death, of course.

Of course you would need a reason for people to follow your law and not the one they currently follow (not to mention my address).

Without a reason to follow any one man, all reason for law becomes lost, and we have a messed up form of anarchy...

Reason? Well, most of us follow this because we don't want anarchy.

[fastbow]

Of course you would need a reason for people to follow your law and not the one they currently follow (not to mention my address).



Reason? Well, most of us follow this because we don't want anarchy.

I have no reason. And people will follow.


I don't want anarchy. That's why I have my crap-on-cuckoo's-doorstep laws...

I don't want to follow anyone who has no claim of authority over me, therefore I submit only to myself.

[Ächilles]

Political Correctness makes me hate everything about modern times.

[cuckoo]

I have no reason. And people will follow.


I don't want anarchy. That's why I have my crap-on-cuckoo's-doorstep laws...

I don't want to follow anyone who has no claim of authority over me, therefore I submit only to myself.

Of course you can do or say that, but I fail to see how this has anything to do with religion and the use of it in school.

[dirka dirka]

Political Correctness makes me hate everything about modern times.
well.. not soo much.. but yea, its bs

[fastbow]

Of course you can do or say that, but I fail to see how this has anything to do with religion and the use of it in school.

Yeah, how did we get on this topic?

[Ächilles]

well.. not soo much.. but yea, its bs

Seriously. Just respect the damn tradition of it, people. It's not forcing any beliefs on you, and it sounds better with "Under God" in it.

The day someone is physically hurt from a damn WORD is the day you should be able to sue someone for it. All these stupid laws and restrictions are crap. You can never solve your own problems anymore, it's always in court or something stupid. People need to lighten the hell up.

[Office_Shredder]

The day someone is physically hurt from a damn WORD is the day you should be able to sue someone for it

Ever hear the phrase "the pen is mightier than the sword"? Imagine if Bush announced that all Muslims should be exterminated. You can be damned sure those words would cause physical, lasting harm to a hell of a lot of people

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

The Treaty of Tripoli... note in specific (Article 11)
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

Our Congress legally passed a treaty stating that we are not a Christian based nation. What more can you really want?

[divinity]

Then, if there is no God, why do we need any form of law?
The animals function perfectly with no law...
They also kill each other for any reason they want, without repercussion.

[fastbow]

They also kill each other for any reason they want, without repercussion.

That was the point I was trying to make.

Without a higher power to be accountable to, what authority should any govornment have? God tells us to be obedient to our officials, so I am.

[Doctor Love]

I have heard of the government trying to take away the "God Bless" section in the ...... I don't know what all the patriotic things are called?

Anyways, can someone help me with that? Also, what do you guys think should they take "God Bless" out?
It's called "Pledge of Allegiance". To find out how it all start, go here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41802-2004Jun14.html).
if they start trying to make me say the pledge of allegiance(with the god part)(sp?) in school like they did in some other ones i know im gonna tell them to shove it up their
***. and im gonna ignore it wehn they suspend me. if you want some religious instruction go to a catholic or other religious school.

If they start trying to make me say the “Pledge of Allegiance” (with the god part)in school like they did in some other one I know I’m going to tell them to shove it up their ass. And I’m going to ignore it when they suspend me. If you want some religious instruction go to a catholic or religious school.
Now that the rest of us can understand what you've typed, I'll be honored to respond. You telling them to "shove it up their ass" isn't going to solve anything. You're right they will suspend you (and you won't be able to get out if because it will be disrespect to staff/faculty member), and if you ignore it your suspension will increase and/or you will be expelled eventually. Do you honestly think they expect you to like your punishment? It's time like these I wish the United States wasn't as free as it was, that way idiots like you would be shot for disrespecting the government. You can't even do it intelligently like Dirka Dirka, you just do it dumb.


Meh. The last couple of posts Dirka Dirka and [surprisingly] fastbow have kept you all in line. Good job to everyone.(except Cuathon)

[Ächilles]

Ever hear the phrase "the pen is mightier than the sword"? Imagine if Bush announced that all Muslims should be exterminated. You can be damned sure those words would cause physical, lasting harm to a hell of a lot of people

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html


Giving a command is different. You know what I mean, don't twist my words. If I say "O_S is dumb" you will not get hurt. People are too damn uptight these days. The world needs to pull the stick out of it's ass.

And the pen is not mightier than the sword. You can write down that you want to kill me, then I'll just disembowel you.

[Doctor Love]

And the pen is not mightier than the sword. You can write down that you want to kill me, then I'll just disembowel you.
It depends, what kind of pen are we talking about here?

[cuckoo]

That was the point I was trying to make.

Without a higher power to be accountable to, what authority should any govornment have? God tells us to be obedient to our officials, so I am.

Yeah, but not all of us believe in god. How many times do I have to say that?

In the end, the "under god" section isn't going to be removed for some time. As annoying as you may find it, you have the choice to not say that section...so make use of it?

[divinity]

If that is what you want to have happen (the one who is apparently anal about the "under God" BS), then you might as well waste your time by telling everyone to wear pink suits, paint their skin a dull silver color and tell them they should all have a pet sloth and teach it to run: it's just not going to happen. This part is true though: if you're truly contemplating whether or not you should/shouldn't say "under God" in The Pledge of Alliegance, the best solution that most people will tell you is YOU choose whether or not you utter those two words. Besides, if the majority of the people you are around are reciting that same thing, chances are that no one will even notice if you do or don't say it.

[speaker4thedead]

Then, if there is no God, why do we need any form of law?
The animals function perfectly with no law...
If there was a "god" we wouldnt need a form of law.

[divinity]

If there was a "god" we wouldnt need a form of law.
Well, if I remember it clear enough; I think I remember reading something about when "God" wanted to create an "intelligent form of life". The first time God did this, I think it was called Golden...like the Golden Generation...something Golden, where "Man" was essentially perfect, and had gotten along with others of its own kind perfectly, with nothing bad, or even wrong, happened (not even illness). Anyway, after a certain amount of time had passed, he realized that he did not like this idea, so he wiped them all out and started all over; into the "Silver Generation". Pretty much like the Golden, but with more flaws than earlier, and the people would get into the occasional fight. God didn't like this version either....which in time came to the Bronze Generation....Along with the general verbal fights as well as physical, this "intelligent" form of life separated itself into many groups, and 'isolated' themselves from each other....then God didn't blah blah blah...made the Iron Gen...blah blah blah...people started killing each other..people started dying from something now modernly known as 'illness'.

In the end, God basically found perfection in flaw, and left it at that. This isn't exactly word for word, but I remember vaguely that this story does exist, and that we are, in essence, the Iron Generation.

[Vie]

Just cause you don't believe in god doesn't mean you can't say it when 600 other kids in your school are. Noone will even know you are saying it. they will
expect you to say it. If you don't and refuse to say it, and you get suspened you will be in national news adventually and will start it all over again.

It's 3 words they aren't that hard to say.

Also, with out government(order) there would only be chaos ending in no life on earth. Without, chaos there would only order. With only order there would be on life.

Don't you guys no what a ying yang represents!

[Realist]

To say that this is just a battle of, say, political correctness vs. tradition oversimplifies the matter. This is another battle in the greater culture wars. Is it relevent on it's own? Probably not. But what it represents is quite relevent.

Who do we want to be governed by--rational, scientifically minded people or the fundies?

I've said it in every thread so far on this matter and I'll say it again; nationalism is far worse than theism. My biggest problem with the pledge isn't the god part, its the pledge part. We shouldn't pledge to any entity or institution; instead we should work together for the benefit of ourselves individually and the world as a whole (interesting idea, yah?).

But, still, government should be separated from religion. And while I will trade symbolic separation for practical separation any day, symbolic separation does have its purpose as an educational and cultural tool. How can we educate our children on the merits of SOCAS when all of the government's symbols are full of God? (Quite easily, actually, but that's besides the point.)

[Vie]

To say that this is just a battle of, say, political correctness vs. tradition oversimplifies the matter. This is another battle in the greater culture wars. Is it relevent on it's own? Probably not. But what it represents is quite relevent.

Who do we want to be governed by--rational, scientifically minded people or the fundies?

I've said it in every thread so far on this matter and I'll say it again; nationalism is far worse than theism. My biggest problem with the pledge isn't the god part, its the pledge part. We shouldn't pledge to any entity or institution; instead we should work together for the benefit of ourselves individually and the world as a whole (interesting idea, yah?).

But, still, government should be separated from religion. And while I will trade symbolic separation for practical separation any day, symbolic separation does have its purpose as an educational and cultural tool. How can we educate our children on the merits of SOCAS when all of the government's symbols are full of God? (Quite easily, actually, but that's besides the point.)


*starts clapping*

[fastbow]

To say that this is just a battle of, say, political correctness vs. tradition oversimplifies the matter. This is another battle in the greater culture wars. Is it relevent on it's own? Probably not. But what it represents is quite relevent.

Who do we want to be governed by--rational, scientifically minded people or the fundies?

I've said it in every thread so far on this matter and I'll say it again; nationalism is far worse than theism. My biggest problem with the pledge isn't the god part, its the pledge part. We shouldn't pledge to any entity or institution; instead we should work together for the benefit of ourselves individually and the world as a whole (interesting idea, yah?).

But, still, government should be separated from religion. And while I will trade symbolic separation for practical separation any day, symbolic separation does have its purpose as an educational and cultural tool. How can we educate our children on the merits of SOCAS when all of the government's symbols are full of God? (Quite easily, actually, but that's besides the point.)


Good point.

Still, on the seperation issue, what will happen if we deny our heritige? Revisionist history is already a problem. It is a very easily confirmed fact that most of our nation was originally settled and govorned by the "fundies".

We did really well for almost 130 years. Give America back to the fundies, and we can watch what happens.

As for God in schools, let all gods in. We were founded on religious tolerance. Let the students choose the god they want.

[Realist]

Good point.

Still, on the seperation issue, what will happen if we deny our heritige? Revisionist history is already a problem. It is a very easily confirmed fact that most of our nation was originally settled and govorned by the "fundies".

Uhhh...wrong. The original founders of our nation were enlightenment thinkers who were intentionally trying to remove much of the connection between religion and government, and this isn't even revisionist history (though revisionist history often IS more correct than the previous established view); establishment history accepted this. As for fundies, the vast majority of the founders and builders of this country were absolutely not, but even some of them that were (research colonial Rhode Island) advocated SOCAS.

Another thing our founders were trying to fight against was their heritage, now that you mention it. That's why the US doesn't have a king or nobility. That's why the US guarantees the 1st amendment while England still has its tax-supported church. One could say that fighting against heritage is part of America's heritage. :)

We did really well for almost 130 years.

It's interesting that you'd end the good times at...uh...1906 or so. What makes you think they stopped? It was after WWI that the US started to do really well; to become the strongest and most prosperous nation in the world. Also, I wouldn't consider slavery, the mass-murder of native Americans, the civil war, the colonialization of Cuba and the Philipines, as doing "really well." If this is the "really well" you want, maybe you should support fundies for government.

As for God in schools, let all gods in. We were founded on religious tolerance. Let the students choose the god they want.

How is this different than how it is now?

[divinity]

Just cause you don't believe in god doesn't mean you can't say it when 600 other kids in your school are. Noone will even know you are saying it. they will
expect you to say it. If you don't and refuse to say it, and you get suspened you will be in national news adventually and will start it all over again.

It's 3 words they aren't that hard to say.

Also, with out government(order) there would only be chaos ending in no life on earth. Without, chaos there would only order. With only order there would be on life.

Don't you guys no what a ying yang represents!

That's for echoing me. :dry:

and no, I'm sure they don't know what a YIN YANG means. They just think it's cool looking.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b303/bluexeyes_/silveryinyang.gif
ooo...sparkily..

As for God in schools, let all gods in. We were founded on religious tolerance. Let the students choose the god they want.
I'm sure that in every school, there are different groups of students that worship different gods. I'm certain that you're in a good school that has a great educational plan, so next time you step through the hallway, make a survey, walk around, and educate yourself on just how many different kinds of people there are that believe in different gods, and hopefully you will be slightly less ignorant, in the very least.

[Guilded Dragon]

im a christian and i think that if they take that out of the .......then i will be very mad

[legacy67]

If there is no God, why should I be accountable to anyone, especially another man?

Social Contract. Read some Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes, Mills, basically any political philosopher. The American Constitution was based on the ideas of the Social Contract, not any religious doctrine. If you read some of Jefferson's stuff, you will find that he was a big Social Contract theorist, along with the majority of others who drafted the actual language of the Constitution.

[fastbow]

It's interesting that you'd end the good times at...uh...1906 or so. What makes you think they stopped? It was after WWI that the US started to do really well; to become the strongest and most prosperous nation in the world. Also, I wouldn't consider slavery, the mass-murder of native Americans, the civil war, the colonialization of Cuba and the Philipines, as doing "really well." If this is the "really well" you want, maybe you should support fundies for government.

1906? hmm... Sorry about that. Math error. Put that more around 1955 or so...

[fastbow]

I'm sure that in every school, there are different groups of students that worship different gods. I'm certain that you're in a good school that has a great educational plan, so next time you step through the hallway, make a survey, walk around, and educate yourself on just how many different kinds of people there are that believe in different gods, and hopefully you will be slightly less ignorant, in the very least.

Good idea. Tell a science teacher to teach creationisim alongside evolution. I don't care what kind of creation, just teach some form. Also, tell a literature teacher to teach something about the Bible, one of the longest lasting, best-selling books of all time.

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Good idea. Tell a science teacher to teach creationisim alongside evolution. I don't care what kind of creation, just teach some form. Also, tell a literature teacher to teach something about the Bible, one of the longest lasting, best-selling books of all time.

You want somebody to teach an unproven theory in a science classroom? Do you know what science is?


Less formally, the word science often describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from it"

Just.. no. BAD! Stop asking my fellow students and I to walk backwards through our education.

When I want faith, I'll go to one of the many churches in my town, or I'll talk to my family. Somewhere private. When I want knowledge, I'll go to school. Somewhere public. And if I want both, I'll go somewhere private. Key word that, private.

As far as the pledge, I just don't say those 2 little words. I guess religion is one of the only things I'm somewhat pc about. I'm not going to cause a big stink over it, but I just don't say it unless I'm in a position where not saying it is being proud and gets me screwed. I've learned the lesson of pride too many times for that.

Also, my English teacher did assign the Book of Job as a summer reading text. At first, I was pissed off. My teacher is a former catholic school teacher, and I fully expected her to bombard my class with religious thought as she has in my other 2 years with her. But, as promised, she treated it as a source of allusions in literature, which it very much so is. You cannot deny the existance of allusions to religion in literature. To do that would be to also deny the teaching of Greek mythology, which is crippling in literature. If she had treated it as a religious discussion, I would've fought her tooth and nail because I'm not taking friggin AP English to learn about her religious beliefs. In fact, she barely even touched on it but I think she's saving it for next term since we're doing Hamlet.

[Pirate]

In my old high school my teacher would always talk about God and miracles that she thinks she was "blessed" with. She wasn't suppose to, but no one cared and no one got in trouble for anything. And my old friend went to a school that had the same learning techniques as most other schools, but there they actually encouraged you to talk about God.

[cuckoo]

You want somebody to teach an unproven theory in a science classroom? Do you know what science is?

Religion isn't even a theory, it's just a hopeful guess.


If my science teacher started teaching religion in a when he is supposed to be teaching me science, I would scream religious discrimination and demand he teach me some random religion I just converted myself to (shamanism, anyone?).:)

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Also, most science teachers are kinda stereotypical. Every one I had wouldn't even be able to teach religion.

My current science teacher, 3rd year in a row, would start one of his infamous parody/tirades on it and completely butcher it. Hilariously too, as long as he doesn't use too much toilet humor.

I'd think I was on candid camera or something if my physics teacher started preaching.

[cuckoo]

Yeah well, I shouldn't have imagined my science teacher teaching religion because he wouldn't. I can imagine him taking the ministy approved letter telling him to teach intelligent design, and thowing it in the trash.

Of course he's the kind of guy who can't describe genes without going purple in the face, so...

[Forest_Archer]

In the pledge of allegiance, I say "One nation under debt" instead of "Under God."

[Mman]

im a christian and i think that if they take that out of the .......then i will be very mad

Don't feel mad, feel sad that people will go to such extremes to seperate themselves from the truth.

[cuckoo]

Don't feel mad, feel sad that people will go to such extremes to seperate themselves from the truth.

*gasp* Prior, I was but an ignorant unenlightened pagan, but thanks to the compelling beauty and blessed reasoning of this post, I now see the light! Thank you for saving me from an eternity of horror and savagery dear sir!

[Mman]

your welcome

[Mman]

anyway, i think the phrase"under god" should definitly stay in the pledge.

[Man's Laughter]

Don't feel mad, feel sad that people will go to such extremes to seperate themselves from the truth.

Wow! I never thought that such a low level of human intelligence and level of superior ignorance and close-mindedness existed!


Remove the 'Under God' portion from the Pledge of allegiance at the very least; removal of the pledge alltogether would be even better.

[Vie]

Don't you care for your contry besides it gets my school out of like 5 minutes of class! besides It is the person belief wheather they believe in god or not!

Ok this is becoming vilent I think So someone please close this thread

[Man's Laughter]

It is the persons choice to believe in god, but it is not the governments or the schools choice to force students to make a pledge identifying the existance of a god or certain god. By removing the 'Under God' part from the pledge, no specific religion is identified, thus it is more diverse religion-friendly.

And, no, I don't care much for my country. I care only for myself [Along with a few choice others, but not to the point where I would risk anything important (Of mine) for them].