Do you really use other people's setups?

[Megabyte]

Not using ideas or concepts, but just take someone else's setup and use it?

I just don't see the point. Not from having to be unuiqe or like its "stealing," just simple reasoning. No setup is perfect (whatever some wish to believe ;)), and everyone has different play styles. So why would you use a setup that someone else designed for their own specific play style? You can do better for yourself. Really! You can.

Mostly this just comes to mind when I discussing some strategies the last week. A few people were curious on some lesser used setup types, and we'd toy around with setups. I used this really odd looking 2 bw setup, and it did ok because I made it adherent to my play style. I play this person a bit later, and I see them using the same thing. "Why?" I ask..."because I beat them with it."

OK, maybe I can see some reasoning to it...I mean, if you lose to a setup, you instantly think its the setup style (nobody likes to think they got beaten by skill, I don't care who you are). But still, it was just this really odd-ball setup I bammed out toying around, and completely useless to most players tactically, because I made it specifically to adhere to my own strategy tastes and play style. The guy gets smashed when he uses it...repeatedly. It simply doesn't work for him.

So I question you out there, whom DO use other people's setups...why? I don't see anything wrong with it, just don't see the point. If you like a setup..GREAT! Use the concept, but tweak it to your individual preferences. Why keep it exactly as someone else made it?

[Bottle]

This is why I always say that people should use what they are comfortable with. Most of my formations are unusable unless you know exactly what you're doing with them. (The exception, of course, being my grey form, which seems to have become one of the standard formations for a grey to use.)

I don't need to copy other peoples' formations, I make decent ones myself. :)

[22woger22]

Everyone uses Seed's formation. It must be really good.

(The default setup)

[LosPollos]

I aswell dont find that copying another persons formation is a smart thing to do, but what is a very effective thing to do is maybe see the strengths of someones form and tweak yours(like you said) to make it work with your playing style......

[Guilded Dragon]

i dunno my friend told me to use his setup and ive only lost 2 battles out of aboout 20, but thats also prob because he showed me a strategy for it to.....but thats just me.

[monkus]

Sometimes other people are simply more capable of putting a style of play into a form than you are or I am. What I usually try to do is learn what makes their form better than my own, then create a better form off of theirs.

For example: My original anti-rush was decent, it had potential, but eh. Then, I saw Darrington Darque's "perfect form", and Shiny Flors' "power turtle", and I made a much better anti-rush off of what I learned from them (power = good), and what I knew from myself (pre-emptively stop scout shots).

[Anarchy_United]

When I first started playing I took 1 and a 1/2 hours going through rate the formation above you until I found one I am good at. I played with that one for a while and became really good with it. I have made some slight modification since, but it is really very similar.

[Match Strike]

I agree with Monk. I often will see an interesting setup, then try it out for a game or two. It helps me get inside that player's head. I'll try and find out what gives it it's strengths, then tweak it to fit my own needs. I, for one, can't usually get good ideas from a setup simply by looking at it, I'm a more kinisthetic learner. I need to try it out for myself.

That said, I usually end up changing it after a few games, to fit my style.

[Forest_Archer]

Believe it or not, I was one of (if not the) inventors of my Venom Turtle. Now, that is close to unbelievable for some of you people, so I go along with the "It was the JW turtle" thing. Well as a matter of fact as soon as the wisp came out, The Sniper and I started practicing. I made a form with the DT out of stone cluster and it dazzled the game.

[Match Strike]

Believe it or not, I was one of (if not the) inventors of my Venom Turtle. Now, that is close to unbelievable for some of you people, so I go along with the "It was the JW turtle" thing. Well as a matter of fact as soon as the wisp came out, The Sniper and I started practicing. I made a form with the DT out of stone cluster and it dazzled the game.
I do that anyways, without the wisp.

[Bottle]

Believe it or not, I was one of (if not the) inventors of my Venom Turtle. Now, that is close to unbelievable for some of you people, so I go along with the "It was the JW turtle" thing. Well as a matter of fact as soon as the wisp came out, The Sniper and I started practicing. I made a form with the DT out of stone cluster and it dazzled the game.
Actually, I did the same. And so did every other turtler. :p

[Megabyte]

I think its amusing that someone who comes up with a slightly different variation of some setup and they call themselves the inventor. Likely they created it themselves as not, but I sincerely doubt there are ANY new concepts that havn't been done yet by someone at this point.

I should do an "oddball setup" tournie...
each setup must be a non-standard sort (i.e. no bombs, turtles, etc) consisting of either odd posititioning for setups, or odd unit composition. I'd just have to think of a standard rule for the setup...maybe I could have each person pm me their setup for approval.

edit:
tourney idea...http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22030

[El Cid]

I am chess fan. So I know that if you want to be half decent at chess, you have to play standing on the shoulders of giants.

The same can be applied to formations in TAO. It will be unlikely for a newbie to take the default form and with his extra units come up with a strong turtle, a long lasting anti, or an effective rush.

True, you could argue that is possible, by trial an error, to finally arrive to that form that is adapted to the player's style and can also hold its own again its opponent's form. However, that is a long road to be followed. And I believe that you personally, Megabyte, chose that path. I respect you for that.

When I first got my gold account I did not have as much insight or experience on the effective placements of gold units. So I started out, after asking permission of course, with forms of fellow Netjakers who by experience knew what usually works best.

Little by little you then start to discover the reasons behind the units placement. And once you understand it, it is easier to come with a formation of your own.

Nowadays, I have come up with formations that go along with my playing style and I can call as my own. But I still do use now and then other kind of formations. As one of my chess books recommended, you have to force yourself to play different styles if you want to get better. If you like attacking, play defensively; if you like to defend, play aggressively for once. If a forms beats you, by using it you'll eventually realize its weaknesses, so next time, you will be prepared to counter it.

A chess master can handle any opening and will be able to surprise any opponent. So indeed a TAO player should be able to handle his turtle, hold an anti together, strike down with a rush, and heck, even master the bomb.

[Nova27]

Using someone elses set is pretty pointless unless they either teach u the strategy and u practice it or its pretty much the same set up as yours... Even sets i've been given by other people i tweak to my liking and almost after every game i see if i can make an adjustment to keep up with the current play style... Seems pointless to just take a setup if its nowhere close to wut u use...

[LosPollos]

Your forgot dominate with the default :bigsmile:

[Megabyte]

hehe, after some pm discussion, I realize that I'm probably being a bit unrealistic.

With all due thanks to Cid for the respect, the game just isn't the same as when I started to play it. We were forced to work out our own ideals and setups, and anything that remotely resembled something good then spread like wildfire.

There wasn't really any standard strategies to adhere too, so everything somebody used was an original concept; and everyone else immediately associated with that player. This meant identities and strategies became more individualized, which all of which eventually evolved into the cookie cutter style setups we see now.

Most of the different setups we see we immediately sneer at as being "unusable" or "stupid." Myself included in that. So maybe its just the environment we've made for the game itself.

Still though, I think there is a serious lack of emphasis on individual preference. Vet's don't think about it because they simply know their preference and style. But new players just sort of take what their betters use and try to make it their own. Likely there's concepts there for them to use, but placement, composition, and attack styles differ from player to player when it comes to preference.

[Wolfman]

mega.... i use so many tur forms (my test turs),so many that i cant remember how many.

it is often for me to see some of them being copied and used against me.... but i take that as no offense, in contrary, sometimes my opponents help me to see more weak points of my test turs when they use it against me.

what wolf wanna say is.... take the best outta this copying sets thingy.

wolfy