Seeking critique to my formations

[Calon]

I came to this game about 3 weeks ago and manage to obtain, and hover at, a 1150ish rating last month. I tried various formations and came up with the following as one of the best "one cleric" formations in terms of my success therewith. Last month I won a couple cleric drops and used 2 clerics with great success but I got beat by a fellow grey account player with a 1283 rating who only used one cleric. This motivated me to drop my "crutch-cleric" and start perfecting strategy and formation to use only one.

My objective: To have a formation and unit composition that is primarily defensive and does well taking down the units that are rushed against me.

I do have some issues with this formation and have tried varrying my unit composition somewhat as well as unit placement.

I will post images to my the two general formations which are mainly a change in the placement of my Lightning Ward and some slight accomodating unit position changes. I am labeling these two formations so that you (if you decide to reply, and thank you for doing so) can make specific critiques of one or both and reference them with ease. Under the formation label I have put some of the vulnerabilities that I have expereinced as well as other issues.

Formation A
-There is a HUGE area to the side of my formation that makes my witch and chanter vulnerable to scout snipage.
-I seem to end up having to choose who dies, witch or enchanter because the scout gets in there and shoots. If I give chase with my knight he runs off and/or gets healed and shoots before retreating to safety.
-If I try and incorporate my enchanter (only using it, in this instance, if I can freeze the scout) she is ussually needing a heal (to get back up to 29 hp after one shot from the scout) and that brings up two turns before I can place her under barrier (heal, then barrier) and most good players will have a knight/pyro/witch within range to break up the enchanter's focus before I can get set.
Question: How do I manage the scout + knight/pyro/witch rush to my enchanter/witch?
Good players (950+ ratings) seem to really try and kill that enchanter quickly... and for a good reason, I'm fairly apt at using it... if I can just keep her alive.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9554/tao17am.png

Formation B
-In this formation the assassin is there to help with some LoS issues and a good counter to any pyro/witch opponents who come in concert with the scout rush. The only change I have made to this formation is maybe swaping scout and assassin positions.
Problems:
-I get little use out of my scout unless I move him.
-If I move my scout my small hole to my left becomes a large whole.
-A player versed in the scout LOS tricks can still pick apart my witch/enchanter.
-Assassins (or the other scout) take 3 hits to kill a scout unlike a knight or knight/witch combo.
-If I move my the far left knight then my cleric becomes vulnerable to a witch suicide run on my cleric.
-A knight or assassin can usually work their way up beside my barrier which screws up my defense on the far right.
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5883/tao20xx.png

Lastly: I'm open to a complete formation change as long as it holds true with my objective mentioned earlier.

Ok, really Lastly this time: Have you ever noticed that when you REALLY REALLY want the first move the other guy gets it and when you would really like them to move first (and get in range) you win the first move!?!? :rolleyes:

Thanks for any and all comments.

[kegsworth]

First off, I would like to welcome you to the forums and congratulate you on the proper use of this board.

1'st set
- One problem I see with this set is the fact your letting them control the whole left field, so to speak.
- Move your DMW (Dark Magic Witch) one space directly in front of her. On this space, shes still out of the enemy's LW range.
- Move your chanty (enchantress) one space away from the cleric. You can always move her closer to the center if needed but you want to be able to catch the 'stragglers' in left field.
- Move your Barrier Ward one space forward. The BW needs range to operate properly.
- Strategy: Let your opponent come to you until he has to heal. Once healed he will have to wait three turns to heal again (granted he doesnt move), take this opportunity to eliminate the frontlines, ie: Scout, DMW, or closest knight. Do not go out of your way to kill the closest knight unless he poses a serious threat.

Set 2
This set is virtually flawless. To help you with your complaint though:
- Move the knight sitting next to the archer, in front of the archer.
- Move the archer to the space behind where the knight used to be.

Now you can effectivly move your archer without exposing the entire side.

Please tell me what you think and I hope I was of some help. I'm going to go setup and screenie it for you.

~kegs

Edit: keep in mind this is just my opinion.

[Learz]

1st form:

Do what kegs said. Maybe moving the knight inbetween the sin and l/w back a space... add some variety.

2cd form:

I would barrel into your right flank with everything I had, killing your scout and DMW. The b/w in front of the cleric would make it hard to kill him, but I could do some serious damage with little loss to myself.


I'll do a more detailed analysis when I get more time.
:)

[dab00z]

Hi.

Your formation A is a good one. You should be able to handle a single scout. Between moving knights to block LOS, the barrier ward, and the cleric you should be able to keep the vulnerable pieces alive. By that time you can kill the scout (hopefully). You may consider switching the assassin and the scout and then move the assassin 1 to the left, although I think this is mainly a style issue. The switch makes it easier to pull off a standard 2 knight + scout flank and the assassin is better to defend your vulnerable units with. However there is alot of merit to having the scout near the middle of the board too. With the assassin 1 to the left and switched, it creates an even more effective wall to help stop a rush. You can then move the witch up one which is a MUCH better attacking position (it can go past both knights, and attack then barrier then retreat). If you do that, then you have bottle's grey :) If you prefer assassin on the flank, I still recommend moving the scout one left and moving the witch up one. As for stopping a same side rush, you have witch/lward/knight combo available.

Your formation B is kind of weird, I would definitely move the enchantress next to the cleric, and the lward 1 right. This lward position will free you of any concern of witch burn and allow you to wall up the right side much easier.

[kegsworth]

These are the changes made to the first set.
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/9276/grayset29qk.png (http://imageshack.us)

These are the changes made to the second set.
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/3431/grayset10nc.png (http://imageshack.us)

[kegsworth]

1st form:

Do what kegs said. Maybe moving the knight inbetween the sin and l/w back a space... add some variety.

2cd form:

I would barrel into your right flank with everything I had, killing your scout and DMW. The b/w in front of the cleric would make it hard to kill him, but I could do some serious damage with little loss to myself.


I'll do a more detailed analysis when I get more time.
:)
Sorry for the double. It all really comes down to whos using it. For instance: my advice on set 2 sounds good to me and I could make it work. However, if you use it and try to make it work for you, learz would exploit your weakness and crush you. Experience plays a big role here, knowing when to fall back or double your efforts is critical.

[Learz]

kegs first: nice

kegs second: ehhh....
I think its weak - the b/w and scout are awfully exposed....


*edit in response to kegs*
yeah. I use a corner formation as grey, so I would just walk into his second (if I'm on his side).

[kegsworth]

kegs first: nice

kegs second: ehhh....
I think its weak - the b/w and scout are awfully exposed....
1st: thnx :bigsmile:

2nd: I would use this mostly as defensive and use harassment fire until they were weak. Again, experience. (Although, I have no doubt in my mind you could beat me)

[Calon]

Great feedback all. Thank you very much.

I'm going to try out the changes to my first set as shown by Kegsworth for a couple reasons.

The LW makes me not have to worry about witch burn and my back door is better protected.

I have experienced first hand what Learz has said about being "barreled" from the backside and it seems the very best recover from that is me losing no units (some damaged) and their knight sitting tight beside my barrier, neutralizing its power, and my only option being to tap on his shield being that my DMW is likely tied up in the ensuing fight for the sacred left field.

In my opinion one of the best attributes of the assasin is her 70% frontal blocking and this set takes greatest advantage of that by not allowing flank attacks to her squishy sides.

It seems that one of the essencial underlying differences in the two is whether or not to trade a weeker backside for a little more arm length into the left field. I always have high hopes for my assassin but they never seem (or are the minority by far) to actualize.

I think one of the major areas of my game (since I have a chanty especially) is dealing with the enemy scout. I'm going to try to be more agressive against that encroaching scout.

Thanks thus far and any more you have to say is wonderful as well.

[Guilded Dragon]

i aggre i like the first fourm better i never thought about your idea with having chanty towards left, i have a setup similar to this, so i think i will use your advise, thanks kegs, and welcome to the fourms calon! the thing i think is wrong with the second is it leaves chanty in LOS of a scout.

[Calon]

Well I have to hand it to you Kegs... making those changes has really improved my game.

I won losing only 2-3 toons most games and one game 1 only... here's a pic of a game I just ended with someone who was already over 1100 rating (myself just now around 1000) who played a great game against me.

Moving that barrier up, as you said, allowed for more freedom in my DMW which proved to be crucial taking out the pyro + scout rush.

This last match was the kind I really like, very strategical decisions, long battle, mistakes made costly and friendly chat. =)

Maybe its just beginner's luck but I'll stick with this formation (Keg's formation #1) and see if any obvious vulnerabilities pop up.

Here's the end to the vs. 1100 battle I was talking about... thanks again for all your help, everyone. Great community here.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/5043/tao46kr.png

[Calon]

the thing i think is wrong with the second is it leaves chanty in LOS of a scout.

What is the best way to remove the chanty from LoS? I think I might have started with her on the back wall... I'll have to check.

Being as far back as she is makes the scout have to pick the outside route and coming in deeper towards my back wall or the up top rought putting him in two shot range of my knight + DMW (then barrier).

I guess its a choice between vulnerabiilty and readiness... the further foward/outside your chanty is, the more ready she is... but also the more vulnerable.

[kegsworth]

Hey Calon, no problem. I'm glad to see this helped. I'm looking forward to a gray game with you...what server do you play on? We'll have to set a time to play and work on each others strategy. If I can think of anyway to improve [our] game, than I'll post it.

~kegs

[KBHoleN1]

You guys made some great points, and nice forms Calon.

The main thing I saw in both forms was the position of your bw. Kegs got you to move it forward in both forms, not only allowing your bw more range across the field, but allowing your cleric to move. If you pinj your cleric in the corner like that, and I get a knight back there, he's dead for sure.

Second thing: you talked about having to choose between your witch or enchantress dying. When the game begins, if you see your opponent going to that side of your form, shift a knight over there, for a little extra protection. One knight hit on that scout and its yours, b/c of that witch back there. Don't be afraid to take a little damage, its ok to use a damaged enchantress, as long as you can barrier her next turn. Then, you can focus on clearing units from around her, so you can move her back towards your cleric and heal.

You really seem like you know what you're doing, I'd love to play you sometime. I use a center spread form, no drops, that is usually a pretty strong test of any turtle. Just let me know what server you play on.

[x-useme]

The first set is better, but you may wanna place the scout closer to the assassin, but keep it behind the assassin. This way it can shoot the assassin a couple of times and barrier ward it, making it a bomb.

[Calon]

I play on the Banff server as Calon1. I'd be very interested in playing any of you. I'd really like to see a center spread played well, KBHoleN1... that was my original thought, but I abandoned it due to being obliterated and finding more success with the corner defense.

I should be playing off and on this evening and thanks to the weather, I'll have little to do here at work.

At home I play even more sporadically... just log in in for a couple games between honey-do lists and kid tramplings but I can probalby accomdate an arranged time on the weekend.

[x-useme]

I'll try you out sometime, you seem like a decent player

[monkus]

My objective: To have a formation and unit composition that is primarily defensive and does well taking down the units that are rushed against me.

Then I will stick to this objective.


Formation A
-There is a HUGE area to the side of my formation that makes my witch and chanter vulnerable to scout snipage.
-I seem to end up having to choose who dies, witch or enchanter because the scout gets in there and shoots. If I give chase with my knight he runs off and/or gets healed and shoots before retreating to safety.

So freeze the scout. He runs back and shoots, you can get a move and then a move/attack out with your chanty. Unless he has more units right there, you should be able to barrier it too, and kill the scout quite easily.


-If I try and incorporate my enchanter (only using it, in this instance, if I can freeze the scout) she is ussually needing a heal (to get back up to 29 hp after one shot from the scout) and that brings up two turns before I can place her under barrier (heal, then barrier) and most good players will have a knight/pyro/witch within range to break up the enchanter's focus before I can get set.

Move, heal, move/attack. If he brings backup, don't go for the paralyze, reposition the knights. He should NOT be able to maneuver an entire attack squadron before you can get some knights into place.



Question: How do I manage the scout + knight/pyro/witch rush to my enchanter/witch?
Good players (950+ ratings) seem to really try and kill that enchanter quickly... and for a good reason, I'm fairly apt at using it... if I can just keep her alive.

Chanty is very far back. Keep her that way. If they try and flank you, reposition. For this very reason I keep my lward one row PAST the cleric, so it has more range against flankings. Put the knight 4 in front of cleric, stopping witch; he can be moved later against flankings, while the lward, if too far off, can not be moved. Your second form has this idea. Change that in the first form.

Second form isn't bad, just have an exit plan in case of an early assault on your scout.

Also, may I advise trying the pyro out a bit? He's weaker than witch, but lives a little longer (hp and blocking), and is much more versitile. In a defensive form, this counts.

[kegsworth]

Good ol` Monkus :rolleyes: