noticed something about berserker...

[mike_slater]

i have just noticed that if u are using the berserker in a game it depends whether or not u go first or second at the beggining. if u want to have the full effect of its stun ability then it is in the best interest that you go first....(even though u have no control over it). now, i figuered this out when playing solingro on rev. here is how i noticed it.

i was the second to attack at the beggining. after a few turns he attacked my scout w/ his dragon. i waited until the dragon had no recovery turns left until i attacked. i moved my berserker and made a direct hit on the side of his dragon. this made the dragon go to 1 recovery turn. next it was his turn so he continued to attack my scout. i had to wait 1 turn for my berserker to attack so i attacked a different unit w/ my knight thinking my berserker was safe. next turn i noticed that the his dragon was fully recovered and he blasted my berserker w/ it. i thought that i had like skipped a turn of mine and let him go, but then it struck me! if you want the stun ability to work properly then u have to go first.

does this just draw more attention to whether someone goes first or second in a game more?

[Bottle]

Indeed, and this is something you will all learn very quickly about the berserker.

It is almost useless to use it against a unit with 0 recovery unless a) it is immediately threatening a devastating move or b) you will kill it next turn. Similarly, the best way to deal with a berserker is to let it attack your units with 0 recovery and then beat it up next turn.

It's all part of the strategy of the unit, and it's very interesting.

A knight actually can deal with it best not by moving up to it and attacking it in one turn, but by moving u to it one turn and attacking it and retreating the next. Similarly, you don't want to send a mud or dragon in next to it, because in effect you are doubling its wait time.

[.Vash.]

Or just kill it with your scouts lol.

[Silent~Sniper]

Or just kill it with your scouts lol.

VASH = In love with his scouts. :p

[Bottle]

Or just kill it with your scouts lol.
Yes, well, when you have 2 scouts and therefore don't have to worry about wisp and frost... :dry:

[Moose]

Yes, well, when you have 2 scouts and therefore don't have to worry about wisp and frost... :dry:

It's amazing how many people bitch about wanting units, then complain about them when they get them, not to mention that fact that they don't even come up with idea's on how to adapt to them, don't you agree EU boy?

[.Vash.]

True moose I already no great sets with this unit but on fps there kinda useless with the 2 scouts! and yes I love my scouts and dragon.

[Bottle]

Much as it pains me, I do agree, Yankee kid.

[TurtleKaze]

It's amazing how many people bitch about wanting units, then complain about them when they get them, not to mention that fact that they don't even come up with idea's on how to adapt to them, don't you agree EU boy?

I was one of those people... But the "berserker" I wanted had the same HP/Armor/Block as Furgon and only 12 attack but stunned 2 (didn't add to recovery time).

The berserker can be usefull, but not to stop a muddy or GA. The best you can hope for is a unit trade at the cost of a Frosty with an arrow in his chest (or a dead wisp), and if your opponent uses a wisp of his own, you can count on that plan going to shit. With all of the "preventative" measures out there your best option is still to take the mudquake like a man and hope to own regardless.

My idea (so similar yet so different) would PUNISH people who put a GA in front of your cleric in hopes that we would see a GA rush less often. Is that so wrong? And yet the berserker punishes noone but the user if he tries to put it on the front lines, where it needs to be. 25% block? No armor? It's actually harder to kill a Wisp or Pyro.

Moose, you wanted suggestions to adapt to the berserker. The answer? Nothing. This unit sucks, and after everyone gets over this "woohoo new unit phase" nobody is going to use it.

[monkus]

The truth about berzerker is he really can't permanently stun things by himself, he just adds to the frost golem's potency in this. I lost my muddy in a turtle game because of the combined efforts of a berzerker and frosty, even though I had scouts nearby.

However, what I really think the berzerker can be used for in turtle games is for "free" damage. Now, when I say free, what I really mean is damage at no cost to turns. If a muddy jumps in, you have 3 turns to deal damage to it. The berzerker deals 22 damage (reduced by armor or whatnot), but at no cost to turns spent recovering by the muddy. This way, assuming your opponent doesn't heal, you can Zap, Dragon, Berzerker, Knight.

[Bottle]

Moose, you wanted suggestions to adapt to the berserker. The answer? Nothing. This unit sucks, and after everyone gets over this "woohoo new unit phase" nobody is going to use it.
You're obviously not using it the right way then. It's MASSIVELY useful if you can use it well in a well thought-out and cohesive strategy. OK, so you can swop it for an ambusher in a turtle-rush match. This means one less attacker on your side and your cleric surviving for longer. And if the rush isn't same-side, then you can always retreat it behind something else for use in the endgame.

It CAN be used well. It's a highly tactical unit. You remember when the wisp was released? When, as you said, the "woohoo new unit" phase was over, skillful people started using it to great effect. (Unfortunately, so did many unskilled people.) But this simply can't be used by the unskilled, and can be used well against them.

Woohoo for no more armored mud getting in 4 mudquakes before it dies. :dry:

[TurtleKaze]

Woohoo for no more armored mud getting in 4 mudquakes before it dies. :dry:

Well I did say it could be usefull... Ok, so it doesn't suck, but if the opponent uses a wisp, or a DSM or anything else that would require immediate attention, this guy is not even going to be able to swap for a GA before it does it's thing. I just wish it were a tiny bit harder to kill.

[Bottle]

If you get first turn, that's a dead wisp right there. There's nothing they can do to stop it. Further, if you have a wisp and LW as well, simply wisp both mud and amby if they get same side, then when focus is broken berserker the mud. Amby will attack cleric, LW kills mud before it gets to quake. Kill amby, heal. 2 enemy units down, they have to waste another scout to kill the cleric. Fair trade.

And that's just its use as a turtle against a rush. You also have its wisp-like abilities to delay an attack for a turn, but without the disadvantage of worrying about the wisp's low HP when the focus is broken, and also with the advantage of dealing 22 damage instead of 8.

Ally those abilities to the chance to kill an armored mud almost single-handedly before it gets a second quake in, or an unarmored dragon single-handedly without healing, and you have...

ONE HECK OF A UNIT.

Shame about its low HP and no defenses. :)

[EatMine]

Further, if you have a wisp and LW as well, simply wisp both mud and amby if they get same side, then when focus is broken berserker the mud. Amby will attack cleric, LW kills mud before it gets to quake. Kill amby, heal. 2 enemy units down, they have to waste another scout to kill the cleric. Fair trade.You wish!
1) That means you need 1st move AND Amby not in direct range of cleric (so that it has to walk). And even if it has to walk, while you're killing it in 3 moves, you get a lot of damage from elsewhere ...
2) And even if it works (Amby+Mud+Scout for Cleric+Wisp) it is a better trade for the rusher, cause then it is 7 attacking units (already damaged) on your side vs 6 attacking units + cleric on the rusher's side ... Hmm, no tough decision for me ...

If the rusher is not same side though, i prefer the anti form too ...
Actually i am thinking about going back to using an anti now.
Do you maybe already have a statistic with a Berz-Anti-form vs GA/Mud rushers on the same side? That would be really interesting for me!

[Bottle]

Not true at all. EatMine, you obviously didn't read my post carefully enough.

Yes, you need first move. But if you don't get first move, there's not much you can do about same-side forms anyway.

Now, let's work this through. Wisp attacks mud and amby. Scout shoots wisp. Berserker attacks mud. Mud has 1 recovery and 30HP. Amby attacks cleric. Cleric on 4, amby has 2 recovery (assume you don't need to move). LW kills mud. Opponent does something (maybe scout kills wisp). Amby 1 turn recovery. Berserker attacks amby, amby has 2 recovery and 30HP. Even if the opponent heals, so long as you also have a knight in range, the knight and berserker will kill the amby before it recovers. The opponent has to send in another unit to kill the cleric. Use frost on that unit and kill it with your scouts. Result: your cleric and wisp dead, berserker slightly exposed, enemy has lost mud, amby and scout (which is probably almost all his range) and you still have a frost left, not to mention your scouts, knights, LW, and whatever else you have, all at full HP because the mud didn't get the chance to quake.

I'd take that compared to having first turn and still not being able to kill the mud before it quakes your clustered units.

[EatMine]

Now, let's work this through. Wisp attacks mud and amby. Scout shoots wisp. Berserker attacks mud. Mud has 1 recovery and 30HP. Amby attacks cleric. Cleric on 4, amby has 2 recovery (assume you don't need to move). LW kills mud. Opponent does something (maybe scout kills wisp). Amby 1 turn recovery. Berserker attacks amby, amby has 2 recovery and 30HP.Ok, till here i am with you.
Now we have one attack for the rusher to do damage. Then hit on GA, followed by scout killing cleric. Ga dies. Second damaging attack. Frost freezes scout. Third possible damaging attack.
Result: cleric and wisp dead, berserker slightly exposed, enemy has lost mud, amby and scout (at least two more attacks needed for that, which means another 2 free shots at your units).

Now you have 7 attacking units (not all at full HP) left vs 7 units (scout, 3 knights, dragon and cleric), on the other side of the board.

I'd take that compared to having first turn and still not being able to kill the mud before it quakes your clustered units.That's what i was asking. To me it doesnt't look that good, but if you came to the conclusion that it is worth it in 50% of all games, then i'll probably quit rushing ...

[TurtleKaze]

2) And even if it works (Amby+Mud+Scout for Cleric+Wisp) it is a better trade for the rusher, cause then it is 7 attacking units (already damaged) on your side vs 6 attacking units + cleric on the rusher's side ... Hmm, no tough decision for me ...

If I can trade an amby+mud(no quake)+scout for a cleric and another unit, that is usually a won game for MY anti (one more scout to go before my frosty COMPLETELY owns the game, and I'm going to freeze anyway just to bait it). But in this case, think of what your setup is like. Berserker, wisp, Lightning Ward... Dare I throw in my favorite units, Frosty and Furgy? Might as well go for a world record fastest loss and add in the beastie, assassin, pyro, enchantress and cleric.:rolleyes:

Plus with my luck, if I play a berserker, wisp and lightning ward I'll probably be jumped by someone who turtles.

[Bottle]

My own formation uses the following: cleric, scout, mud, wisp, stone all stoned; 2 knights and LW front-row; furgon blocking LOS shots on stone, and berserker. No frost, but you could always take out a knight for it. That way, if you do face a turtle, you still have a stoned scout, mud and wisp, and you CAN beat it if you play well.

Keep the cleric and kill the mud and you've all but won with the furgy. If you look like you're in bad shape, use the furgy special attack to slow them down and then use your stone advantage. If you lose the cleric, make sure you take down most of their range so they can't just pick you off, then go after their cleric with your armored scout and mud, and keep the scout.

Anyway, I'm sure it'll be very different on FPS with the second scout. What is a sound strategy on Legends against virtually every formation (except a 9-witch and mud bomb) might not work at all here.

[TurtleKaze]

Keep the cleric and kill the mud and you've all but won with the furgy.
Totally agreed, IF you also have a frosty.
Anyway, I'm sure it'll be very different on FPS with the second scout.
You do know the berserker is already out in FPS right? Anyway, I'm done disagreeing with you. I'm actually using a variation of your power turtle as an anti, and totally kicking ass with it. Thankyou and rep.

[Bottle]

My formation on Legends is based on my powerturtle anti here. And yes, I do know that it's out here. I don't have my head buried in the forum sand and I have also been on Rev a lot since it was released. I just haven't played here. I now loathe 2 scouts. :dry:

I've found that even if you don't have a frosty, you've still won 9/10 if you kill the mud and keep your cleric, unless you immediately have 2 knights in your face.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm attempting to discuss strategic points.

[meet the fudger]

Indeed, and this is something you will all learn very quickly about the berserker.

It is almost useless to use it against a unit with 0 recovery unless a) it is immediately threatening a devastating move or b) you will kill it next turn. Similarly, the best way to deal with a berserker is to let it attack your units with 0 recovery and then beat it up next turn.

It's all part of the strategy of the unit, and it's very interesting.

A knight actually can deal with it best not by moving up to it and attacking it in one turn, but by moving u to it one turn and attacking it and retreating the next. Similarly, you don't want to send a mud or dragon in next to it, because in effect you are doubling its wait time.

Bottle hit it right on the head. good job Bottle!

Pos. Rep.:yu: