Christian Thread

[deleryn]

Are you saying that God created the Earth in just a way so that nonbelievers would be purposefully decieved by the evidence that God left for them?
I was joking after the "intelligent" forum members made to say that "Christians are only worming their way around however they may".
There are checks and balances in scientific research. Don't think that Darwin said there is evolution so it must be true. Thousands of scientists have independently reached the same conclusions regarding the age of the earth. In addition, there are multiple forms of evidence. The rock history of earth and the moon, radioactive dating, DNA, and several other forms of evidence all lead to the same conclusion.
"Thousands of Scientists" can come to as many conclusions as they want. If you can spout some scientifical evidence that the earth is old, what does that prove? That Adam was in the Garden of Eden for longer than we thought? That God took special care to make the universe magnificent? Intelligent Christians could make an explaination for any "facts" that they could come up with. If the explaination takes longer than ten minutes to tell, then there's probably a way to get around it.

No scientist would ever get an amount of respect if he/she were anything but an Atheist. In fact, any Christian attempting to work with Atheists on the matter of "old vs young Earth" would most certainly be blown off. It's not my fault that they deciede to dominate the world of science and to generalize Christians as stupid and ignorant.
The Bible (New Testament) is a collection of books, written by men hundreds of years after Jesus died and assembled in its modern form by Constantine in the 4th century who carefully selected what books were included in the Bible and what books were left out, to suit his own needs.
The books of the Bible were brought together by Christian men in the Geneva Council during the reign of Constantine. If you really knew anything about the subject, you would know that most of the books rejected are still available today and that any good Christian today would choose the same ones as before because those books were obviously divinely inspired. No ordinary "man" or group of them could fabricate something so unique and amazing as those books. You don't understand the staples of Christianity and other religions at that time, so you don't know how new it was. Under Constantine, some symbolism involving the sun was adapted, but that was only to ease the transition of the masses to a new, very different religion. In fact, Constantine could've never come up with anything like it himself, because he worshipped the Roman God Apollo.

It was written during the lifetimes of eyewitnesses to the events it talked about. Some of the characters can be proven to have really existed. Christians had died for what they believed about Jesus Christ, under some of the Roman emporers, before Constantine had even arrived on the scene.

[Office_Shredder]

No scientist would ever get an amount of respect if he/she were anything but an Atheist. In fact, any Christian attempting to work with Atheists on the matter of "old vs young Earth" would most certainly be blown off. It's not my fault that they deciede to dominate the world of science and to generalize Christians as stupid and ignorant.

You have to look at history here. Just 200 years ago, creationism was the only origin of life theory, and evolutionists were laughed at. This was when the scientific method had just about come into its prime, and everyone was using it (as opposed to explaining things via the bible). Lo and behold.... evolution completely pushed creationism out of the arena. Coincidence? You might think so, but the evidence for evolution is pretty compelling. Between the fossil record, actual witnessing of evolution in laboratory conditions, etc., it's tough to just pass it off.

No ordinary "man" or group of them could fabricate something so unique and amazing as those book

I disagree entirely.... if I read a passage in the bible, and then a chapter in the Saga of Recluce series, I find the Saga of Recluce much more unique and amazing :p

[savanna]

Well, really learning about Christianity's roots and such have made me much more thoughtful than I ever thought I would be. Every time an Apologetics class is taught, somebody just gets surprized about the religion that they thought was their's. Plus, you learn all about other religions and what their weaknesses and strengths are (as far as debate goes) along with the information for Christianity.

I don't like losers any more than you do.

ive tried christianity, and didnt like it, and i read about it, along with satanism, and buddhism.
so yes, having knowledge on religion is a GOOD thing, and christians that say if you dont believe in god or your another religion are going to hell, they are about as smart as a potato.

[deleryn]

You have to look at history here. Just 200 years ago, creationism was the only origin of life theory, and evolutionists were laughed at. This was when the scientific method had just about come into its prime, and everyone was using it (as opposed to explaining things via the bible). Lo and behold.... evolution completely pushed creationism out of the arena. Coincidence? You might think so, but the evidence for evolution is pretty compelling. Between the fossil record, actual witnessing of evolution in laboratory conditions, etc., it's tough to just pass it off.
Wait. What's this "acutal witnessing of evolution in laboratory conditions"? Things can change in a number of ways, but they haven't ever been "witnessed" to evolve. Does a virus like the flu "evolve"? I highly doubt that you could even cause one species of anything turn into another with all of the scientific ability you could muster. The influenza is still influenza. Nothing has evolved, ever, in recorded history. And if you could make something evolve in a laboratory within a human lifetime... Isn't that supposedly supposed to take millions of years?

And as for the fossils, there aren't any missing links. There's nothing to prove that anything evolved from anything. There are still wide gaps between some of the species. All the bones prove is that God, if He did, created many types of fish, bird, mammal, and reptile.

The Scientific Method can't be compared to the Bible. The Bible is used as a religioius handbook whereas the Scientific Method doesn't necessarily have anything to do with evolution. There's nothing at all preventing Christians from using the Scientific Method, even, and I respect it's ability to aid in problem-solving. Also, keep in mind that Darwin didn't use the Scientific Method.

I disagree entirely.... if I read a passage in the bible, and then a chapter in the Saga of Recluce series, I find the Saga of Recluce much more unique and amazing
I don't know what this "Saga of Recluse" is, but it isn't comparable to the Bible as a whole. The Bible isn't there for your entertainment, it's there to teach you exactly what God wants you to know. It's a spiritual handbook, and its ability to produce human beings filled with morality and love is unquestionable.


ive tried christianity, and didnt like it, and i read about it, along with satanism, and buddhism.
so yes, having knowledge on religion is a GOOD thing, and christians that say if you dont believe in god or your another religion are going to hell, they are about as smart as a potato.
So a religion is only as good as it sounds? It doesn't matter that a number of people aren't and are worthy of whatever sacrifice God wants to make for them, Christians have an opportunity to become disciples of Christ.

The fear of going to Hell wasn't even supposed to "scare" people into becoming Christians, in fact, Hell is overrated by our modern society. The only thing that a person heading to Hell has to fear is eternal separation from God. There's no pain, no demons or everburning flames. Just a complete lack of the presence of God. The only thing that you get a hold of in Heaven is a continued relationship with Him. All that stuff about golden streets is probably just metaphorical. Does that even matter to you? Does that sound like such an injustice? The people that God wants to hang out with will get to, and the people who don't spend time in another room before ceasing to exist.

That's what Christianity is all about, according to the Bible, not Heaven or avoiding Hell or love or devoting your life to servitude. Real Christians just want to be on good terms with God forever.

[savanna]

So a religion is only as good as it sounds? It doesn't matter that a number of people aren't and are worthy of whatever sacrifice God wants to make for them, Christians have an opportunity to become disciples of Christ.

The fear of going to Hell wasn't even supposed to "scare" people into becoming Christians, in fact, Hell is overrated by our modern society. The only thing that a person heading to Hell has to fear is eternal separation from God. There's no pain, no demons or everburning flames. Just a complete lack of the presence of God. The only thing that you get a hold of in Heaven is a continued relationship with Him. All that stuff about golden streets is probably just metaphorical. Does that even matter to you? Does that sound like such an injustice? The people that God wants to hang out with will get to, and the people who don't spend time in another room before ceasing to exist.

That's what Christianity is all about, according to the Bible, not Heaven or avoiding Hell or love or devoting your life to servitude. Real Christians just want to be on good terms with God forever.

how in the world so you know a god really exists?
the church has changed the bible before, what makes you think they wont do it again.

[Office_Shredder]

Wait. What's this "acutal witnessing of evolution in laboratory conditions"? Things can change in a number of ways, but they haven't ever been "witnessed" to evolve. Does a virus like the flu "evolve"? I highly doubt that you could even cause one species of anything turn into another with all of the scientific ability you could muster. The influenza is still influenza. Nothing has evolved, ever, in recorded history. And if you could make something evolve in a laboratory within a human lifetime... Isn't that supposedly supposed to take millions of years?

Exactly! They don't see influenza.... still influenza... still influenza.... BAM! ZOMFG! IT'S THE FRICKIN MUMPS! That's not how evolution works.... what they CAN see is how if you take a bacteria sample, add antibiotics, over multiple generations the bacteria will become resistant to the antibiotic. The bacteria adapts, and becomes stronger with respect to its environment. See:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html


And as for the fossils, there aren't any missing links. There's nothing to prove that anything evolved from anything. There are still wide gaps between some of the species. All the bones prove is that God, if He did, created many types of fish, bird, mammal, and reptile.

I'm confused.... how does this prove nothing evolved from anything? We can see a clear trend of hominid alterations that lead up to the current species of humans... and what's more important is that they are sequential in age.


The Scientific Method can't be compared to the Bible. The Bible is used as a religioius handbook whereas the Scientific Method doesn't necessarily have anything to do with evolution. There's nothing at all preventing Christians from using the Scientific Method, even, and I respect it's ability to aid in problem-solving. Also, keep in mind that Darwin didn't use the Scientific Method.


The scientific method has everything to do with evolution.... and with anything else that is a hypothesis that explains naturally how the world works. You can use the scientific method to study evolution, and it has been applied. Correct, darwin did not use the scientific method. What darwin did was collect data, and then submit an essay detailing his hypothesis. Other scientists then independently did research to study whether his hypothesis was correct, and progress in the knowledge of evolution, and its correctness, increased dramatically for it.


I don't know what this "Saga of Recluse" is, but it isn't comparable to the Bible as a whole. The Bible isn't there for your entertainment, it's there to teach you exactly what God wants you to know. It's a spiritual handbook, and its ability to produce human beings filled with morality and love is unquestionable.


The saga of recluce is just a random fantasy series I've read in my life. I mentioned it simply because I find it to be more inspiring and well written than the bible personally. So you have to understand why I don't find the argument "the bible is divinely inspired" to be fulfilling.

[Fenrir]

how in the world so you know a god really exists?
the church has changed the bible before, what makes you think they wont do it again.

Savanna, trying to tell a Christian that they base their beliefs on no hard proof entirely defies the point of the religion. They believe in God because they have faith in Him, without faith religion would be meaningless. You need to prove to God that you believe in all He says and avoid that which others will tell you to doubt Him. That is how you get into Heaven, maintain your faith.

Personally, I'm very confused about religion. I grew up as a Roman Catholic, but after being in the military my faith in God was shaken. I now am in somewhat of a contemplative stage over religion. For a while I thought that if God existed, then he must be a very sick and twisted person who entertains himself by watching us struggle through this world. He places us here and watches us live through events that are horrible by every standard. He could just let us live an easy life, but for some reason chooses to let us live in a world of hardship. Then as I thought about that sentence, the words 'some reason' stuck out, and it made more sense. We still have no idea what our reason here is. Yes, we suffer, but perhaps there is a reason behind it all and God is not just some sick and twisted old man who gets kicks from watching us live in this world he has created. Maybe there is a greater reason, we just don't know it and have to maintain faith that there is.

I really do not know though. It's something I'll be unsure about for the rest of my life.

[Kyir]

The fear of going to Hell wasn't even supposed to "scare" people into becoming Christians

yet, it's used as such

[savanna]

Savanna, trying to tell a Christian that they base their beliefs on no hard proof entirely defies the point of the religion. They believe in God because they have faith in Him, without faith religion would be meaningless. You need to prove to God that you believe in all He says and avoid that which others will tell you to doubt Him. That is how you get into Heaven, maintain your faith.

Personally, I'm very confused about religion. I grew up as a Roman Catholic, but after being in the military my faith in God was shaken. I now am in somewhat of a contemplative stage over religion. For a while I thought that if God existed, then he must be a very sick and twisted person who entertains himself by watching us struggle through this world. He places us her and watches us live through events that are horrible by every standard. He could just let us live an easy life, but for some reason chooses to let us live in a world of hardship. Then as I thought about that sentence, the words 'some reason' stuck out, and it made more sense. We still have no idea what our reason here is. Yes, we suffer, but perhaps there is a reason behind it all and God is not just some sick and twisted old man who gets kicks from watching us live in this world he has created. Maybe there is a greater reason, we just don't know it and have to maintain faith that their is.

I really do not know though. It's something I'll be unsure about for the rest of my life.

faith.. ah, good point.
religion i have to agree is quite confusing.
god could be like some wierd evil man getting giggles from us hurting.
or he could be non real.
or he could be a savior.
who knows?

[deleryn]

Exactly! They don't see influenza.... still influenza... still influenza.... BAM! ZOMFG! IT'S THE FRICKIN MUMPS! That's not how evolution works.... what they CAN see is how if you take a bacteria sample, add antibiotics, over multiple generations the bacteria will become resistant to the antibiotic. The bacteria adapts, and becomes stronger with respect to its environment. See:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html
That was an interesting read, I never thought of the 2nd law of Thermodynamics that way. I'll have to stop using that one. I'm still rusty at this.

The bacteria example can be likened to a human being's ability to increase muscle density through exercise. It's just a trait that a species has. The ability for a species to adapt to its surroundings isn't evolution between species.
I'm confused.... how does this prove nothing evolved from anything? We can see a clear trend of hominid alterations that lead up to the current species of humans... and what's more important is that they are sequential in age.
I still remember needing to memorize all those missing links that other evolutionists later refuted, somehow. Neanderthal stands out in particular, and so does Lucy. There have been many monkeys that could argue in evolution's favor, but no links between monkeys and humans. If evolution takes however many years to occur, then these "missing links" between the species of ape and human shouldn't be so difficult to find.
The scientific method has everything to do with evolution.... and with anything else that is a hypothesis that explains naturally how the world works. You can use the scientific method to study evolution, and it has been applied. Correct, darwin did not use the scientific method. What darwin did was collect data, and then submit an essay detailing his hypothesis. Other scientists then independently did research to study whether his hypothesis was correct, and progress in the knowledge of evolution, and its correctness, increased dramatically for it.
None of this proves that Evolution is anything more than a theory. Most Evolutionary Scientists would say that it is a fact.
The saga of recluce is just a random fantasy series I've read in my life. I mentioned it simply because I find it to be more inspiring and well written than the bible personally. So you have to understand why I don't find the argument "the bible is divinely inspired" to be fulfilling.
Well, you'd have to presume that God exists and has a message to share with humanity before it makes sense. And you have to take a number of things into account about the way that God works for the Bible to really shine when you read it.

yet, it's used as such
Is it? I haven't even told you that you're going to Hell yet, Kyir. And yet, eternal separation from God, in my opinion, would be maddening and more horrible than all the pain that my body could feel. I would prefer that people would attempt to become a disciple of Christ.

Personally, I'm very confused about religion. I grew up as a Roman Catholic, but after being in the military my faith in God was shaken. I now am in somewhat of a contemplative stage over religion. For a while I thought that if God existed, then he must be a very sick and twisted person who entertains himself by watching us struggle through this world. He places us her and watches us live through events that are horrible by every standard. He could just let us live an easy life, but for some reason chooses to let us live in a world of hardship. Then as I thought about that sentence, the words 'some reason' stuck out, and it made more sense. We still have no idea what our reason here is. Yes, we suffer, but perhaps there is a reason behind it all and God is not just some sick and twisted old man who gets kicks from watching us live in this world he has created. Maybe there is a greater reason, we just don't know it and have to maintain faith that their is.
Sounds like you need to find out the meaning of life. But you wouldn't believe me if I tried to tell you my take on it, I bet. I'm only seventeen years old, but it seems to me like humanity is very young compared to the Lord, and it often seems like simple disipline is something extremely harsh to someone younger. I think that some of the things God does appear drastic, but are really God dealing out justice and discipline where it is required, like a good father in a large family. The father doesn't "get giggles" from it, but knows it it necessary.

I know that suicide, rape, murder, theft, death, misery, and such happen every day, but if such thing weren't there, could we really trust that humanity would be better? If God just made life a simple task, would it be as fulfilling to succeed? It would be better to trust in God, methinks.

[Office_Shredder]

The bacteria example can be likened to a human being's ability to increase muscle density through exercise. It's just a trait that a species has. The ability for a species to adapt to its surroundings isn't evolution between species.

You're not thinking of the bacteria as individual organisms. What happens is the weak bacteria die off, and the bacteria that are GENETICALLY capable of surviving the antibiotic flourish.


I still remember needing to memorize all those missing links that other evolutionists later refuted, somehow. Neanderthal stands out in particular, and so does Lucy. There have been many monkeys that could argue in evolution's favor, but no links between monkeys and humans. If evolution takes however many years to occur, then these "missing links" between the species of ape and human shouldn't be so difficult to find.

Humans didn't necessarily evolve from modern day apes (in fact, probably didn't). Instead, both evolved from some common anscestor. So of course there is no evolutionary link between apes and humans, because one didn't evolve from the other


None of this proves that Evolution is anything more than a theory. Most Evolutionary Scientists would say that it is a fact.


A theory is an explanation with scientific evidence backing it. It's not just a theory, just like gravity isn't just a theory. It's also the closest thing to fact that anyone has been able to think up so far, because it has the closest fit to what the current data provides.

[deleryn]

You're not thinking of the bacteria as individual organisms. What happens is the weak bacteria die off, and the bacteria that are GENETICALLY capable of surviving the antibiotic flourish.
Touche. I wasn't thinking. But the Bacteria still doesn't evolve, they just adapt. There isn't a new speices of Bacteria, or anything that would cause me to believe it could ever turn into anything but Bacteria.
Humans didn't necessarily evolve from modern day apes (in fact, probably didn't). Instead, both evolved from some common anscestor. So of course there is no evolutionary link between apes and humans, because one didn't evolve from the other
By "monkeys" I meant the prehistoric fossilized type. And you're still not proving there's any evidence of anything "Evolving" into a new species from them.

If, over millions of years or whatever, some kind of primate evolved into human beings, what kind of fossilized evidence do you think there would be? There would be man-like primates that actually aren't just a mix of human and monkey bones. And yet, none of these "evolving primate" bones can be found. Where'd they all go? If a whole new species took that many years to evolve, there would be millions of bones that would speak of these "evolving primates". Just think of the number of humans that have lived since recorded time and remember that nothing even near Evolution between species has occured to the human race or any species since then.

The point I was trying to make earlier is, don't you think that scientists would fare better in finding some of these bones? All of the bones thought to be of "evolving primates" (which I called missing links) were rejected.
A theory is an explanation with scientific evidence backing it. It's not just a theory, just like gravity isn't just a theory. It's also the closest thing to fact that anyone has been able to think up so far, because it has the closest fit to what the current data provides.
Gravity is more than a theory, it's a law. A law is more factual than a theory and can be proven repeatedly under un-extreme conditions. Things fall. Why? The law of Gravity. Evolution isn't anything more than a theory because there's still reasonable doubt in it. Human beings exist. Why? Well, there are theories.

Look, I went to public school for a number of years. Nothing you're saying here is new. If you're not going to give any good evidence for Evolution, then stop trying to prove that it's irrefutable or whatever. There will always be problems with theories, and, until someone can prove that evolution between species can happen, it will continue to be bogus to me that anyone would believe it because a number of professors and scientists trust in it.

[Office_Shredder]

Touche. I wasn't thinking. But the Bacteria still doesn't evolve, they just adapt. There isn't a new speices of Bacteria, or anything that would cause me to believe it could ever turn into anything but Bacteria.

By "monkeys" I meant the prehistoric fossilized type. And you're still not proving there's any evidence of anything "Evolving" into a new species from them.

Well, if you really want to:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2a.html#primate ;)


Gravity is more than a theory, it's a law. A law is more factual than a theory and can be proven repeatedly under un-extreme conditions. Things fall. Why? The law of Gravity. Evolution isn't anything more than a theory because there's still reasonable doubt in it. Human beings exist. Why? Well, there are theories

This is ABSOLUTELY wrong. Laws are rules that are assumed to be true because of anecdotal observation, and then (generally) used to develop further hypotheses. Examples would be Newtons laws of motion: that things stay at there velocity, F=ma, and every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Those are considered laws in Newtonian mechanics because they're taken as true. Now, you could decide to treat these as hypotheses (not really the second one, because it's a definition). Do things at rest stay at rest? Take ten thousand objects, put them on the ground. If they all stay at rest, then your hypothesis has just evolved (hah, nice pun, right? :) ) into a theory, specifically a theory that things at rest tend to stay at rest. What makes this a law is that it's assumed to be fundamental to the universe, in no way does this alter the fact that it is still a theory (i.e., it's a prediction that has been verified via experiment).

In fact, the law of gravity was SOOOOO universal that Einstein figured out it was wrong ;) So much for that idea
Hmm... I don't think I took 12 hours here ;)

EDIT: Hmm... I forgot for a minute who I was talking to, and how you would interpret my words. Understanding that even those oh so inviolate laws can be discovered false, it's understandable that you would assume that evolution could be false. And this is entirely true. Maybe aliens just planted all the fake evidence so we would believe in evolution. Maybe a giant sphagetti monster did the same thing too. Maybe there's another natural explanation. Anyways, my point is that something is a theory if there is evidence supporting it. intelligent design, creationism, etc. tends to say "well, evolution isn't necessarily true". Great. So point out ONE piece of evidence that decisively points towards an intelligent designer creating the world. Note that a gap in the fossil record does not provide evidence for creationism, it simply is a hole in evolution's argument. However, this still leaves evolution, the "only a theory", as standing stronger than intelligent design, creationism, the whole shibang, which is still stuck at "hypothesis".

And even you know a hypothesis isn't as good as a theory ;)

[battle composed]

It's kinda hard to debate about this, since one is based on pure faith and the other on proof.

And don't diss the aliens, I believe in aliens. Someday, they will come in a meteor shower and I will discard my human husk and depart with them to planet X2-456P in the BS17 system. I already have plans to hjijack their ship and use their far-more-advanced invisibility probes to find the man in the moon. When I get there, I will ask him about the cheese and why he paints the moon blue once in a while. All of the above may not be true, but just have faith.

[deathbydarkness]

It's kinda hard to debate about this, since one is based on pure faith and the other on proof.

nope, they both have to be believed on faith, evolution on where that one thing came from that everything evolved from and creation that there is a GOD

[Office_Shredder]

nope, they both have to be believed on faith, evolution on where that one thing came from that everything evolved from and creation that there is a GOD

Nope.... one side has belief in the existence of god, the other side has rationally sorted through the evidence at hand and come to the conclusion that, given what we currently know via observation, evolution is the best theory to date that fits the facts.

[deleryn]

Well, I slept on it and I think I can provide some better arguments myself. OS, you wink too much. ;)

You linked me to a page full of paleoanthropological records that don't mean squat. The simple fact that all of the bones that scientists can find fit into species proves that none of them could have evolved into each other. If some genetic traits are favored by natural selection, Why is it that multiple traits "Evolved" at once according to some of these records, and why don't some of the specimines show clear evidence of proceeding to change their bone structures? Evolution should take millions, if not billions of years to produce even the slightest changes that would case a change in species, yet scientists are only finding the starting and ending points.

You gave me some reading, so I'll do the same for you.
Some Surprizing Facts About Evolution (http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/evofacts.htm)
The link at the bottom will take you to the main site. There's a lot of information there, a good deal of which is presented in response to what's offered in your site.

Don't forget that if Christians could have changed whatever they felt like in the Bible, regardless of God's warning at the end of Revelation, Atheists could just as easily be less than thourough in their research. Other Evolutionists have already found some fossils to be doctored and incorrect links.

In case you didn't notice, Intelligent Design is a theory also, a much simpler and probably more plausible one, in fact. Evolution doesn't even account for the creation of the world. :p The fact that the universe is so complicated attests to intelligent design, and there's nothing you can do to disprove that an infinitly powerful and knowlegeable being could have created the universe. Who is it that said that the simplest of explainations is the most likely? Believing that all of the universe became as it is today, DNA and wormholes came about because some particles collided together (which can be done in laboratory conditions today, without the creation of a universe) requires more faith than belief in an all-powerful God.

I think I'll mention the moral argument, too. Human beings aren't herd animals, we all have an innate desire to better the lives of the people around us. You might argue that love is something that evolved, but how would that trait be naturally selected? Like Fenrir said, human beings are only able to compete and beat animals because of their ability to gather into a society and think. Some animals gather into packs and prides, but only for mutual protection and mating. As a human being, though, you'll find yourself making friends for no good reason. That's not natural. Did all those instincts to survive just die?

And because no one has ever witnessed macroevolution happen, because there's no evidence of anything remotely similar to macroevolution has happened within recorded history, and because microevolution never produces changes between species, your views require a little faith in the scientists who believe them. It depends on if you'd think that Constantine and "his" Geneva coucil were geniuses capable of faking such a magnificent religion of love and charity as Christianity, or if he would simply accept taking advantage of a simple opportunity to rule an empire while letting it work freely.

Some of the things that you take as "fact" aren't that sort of material.

[Sluff]

Alleluia.

I am indeed, a Christian, I also am in the Christian group for teens at my Cathlioc church in my hometown called, "Living Faith."

Living Faith is where all the Cathlioc teens of my hometown church do fun little activities together every 3 weeks or so (on Wednesday nights). We are currently trying to figure out what to do for our community for Living Faith. It has to be a fun activity that everyone can participate in, and it has to be for a good cause (helping someone/something/some people). If anyone has any suggestions for us, PM me or tell me here. ;)

What I find dissapointing is so many children rejecting God saying, "Pssh, yeah right dude, I don't belive in that big all powerful guy sitting in clouds and saying "Hmm, I don't like you, I think I'll smite you"..thats just lame". They get that idea from Television productions. Sometimes the God jokes on the TV shows are funny, other times, well, they're just disgraceful. Anyways, thats what I think.

[Kyir]

What I find dissapointing is so many children rejecting God saying, "Pssh, yeah right dude, I don't belive in that big all powerful guy sitting in clouds and saying "Hmm, I don't like you, I think I'll smite you"..thats just lame". They get that idea from Television productions. Sometimes the God jokes on the TV shows are funny, other times, well, they're just disgraceful. Anyways, thats what I think.

I think they're all funny, but that might just be me ;)

[deleryn]

Ooooh! A Catholic!

I have a question I've been dying to ask a Catholic: does the Catholic Church still hold to the doctrine of Purgatory? Two of my Catholic friends say different things about that.

Society has stereotyped Christians, and there are some that can be likened to the generalization, but nobody really wants to be the type of person living only on blind faith. It's the mix of facts and faith that produces the real Christian.

There are homeless shelters you and your friends can voulenteer at, you could go on missions trips to third world countries (after doing something to raise the required amounts of money), you could trail groups of Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses and distribute information on debating with them in neighborhoods they're prowling in, you could just spend some time studying Apologetics, or you could visit temples/holy places of other religions (without being too intrusive, of course) to learn and talk about them with people who hold to their beliefs. Most of those are obvious, though. On Christmas, it's always fun to go caroling, but it's not that time of year.

[Chaosti]

i'm not going to comment on the validity of creationism or evolution because what i say is not going to change anyone's mind. however, i will say this: if the theory of evolution is true and we came from some primodial ooze that happened to form the correct chemical reactions to produce amino acids, then life is pointless because quite simply life is the result of an accident. if creationism is true then life was created by a higher being and life has a purpose because creation of life was a premeditated act.

[Kyir]

i'm not going to comment on the validity of creationism or evolution because what i say is not going to change anyone's mind. however, i will say this: if the theory of evolution is true and we came from some primodial ooze that happened to form the correct chemical reactions to produce amino acids, then life is pointless because quite simply life is the result of an accident. if creationism is true then life was created by a higher being and life has a purpose because creation of life was a premeditated act.

but what about the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/) ?

[Jeffery]

i'm not going to comment on the validity of creationism or evolution because what i say is not going to change anyone's mind. however, i will say this: if the theory of evolution is true and we came from some primodial ooze that happened to form the correct chemical reactions to produce amino acids, then life is pointless because quite simply life is the result of an accident. if creationism is true then life was created by a higher being and life has a purpose because creation of life was a premeditated act.
Unless the creation of those acids was done by a higher power with the intent that life form and evolve on it's own.

[ReTodd]

Unless the creation of those acids was done by a higher power with the intent that life form and evolve on it's own.

I like to think that God carefully planned out all of the laws of nature, so that life, especially sentient beings, would emerge. In this way, everything is planned out by a higher power without needing to interfere after everything has been set in motion. Wind it up, and watch it go!

[Chaosti]

Unless the creation of those acids was done by a higher power with the intent that life form and evolve on it's own.

then thats intelligent design. look, microevolution is clearly possible. thats what darwin helped prove. however, macroevolution is the controversial issue. and the whole idea of God creating the universe and then stepping back is not the issue. whats being debated at the moment, is whether or not life is an accident or a premeditated act?

[Jeffery]

Being debated where? There are many different debates in many different places. Why do you attempt to limit your response? I can tell you why.
people who know their arguments are doomed to fail always try and limit the possible answers available in order to make their side look more right. You say only choice A or B is possible, becuase it would be more likely than A B C or D being available.
If you are that scared of being wrong, continue on. If you actually have a mind of your own, look at all possabilities before just spewing forth the same answer someone has commanded you to give,

[ReTodd]

then thats intelligent design. look, microevolution is clearly possible. thats what darwin helped prove. however, macroevolution is the controversial issue. and the whole idea of God creating the universe and then stepping back is not the issue. whats being debated at the moment, is whether or not life is an accident or a premeditated act?

If god planned the physical laws to play out in such a way that intelligent life formed (as I mentioned in my post above), then it was a premeditated act.

[deleryn]

I like to think that God carefully planned out all of the laws of nature, so that life, especially sentient beings, would emerge. In this way, everything is planned out by a higher power without needing to interfere after everything has been set in motion. Wind it up, and watch it go!

Ah, a Deist. Thomas Jefferson would agree with you. But the question that arises is: Did God inspire the Bible then? The Bible says that God still works in the world, so to be a Deist, you would have to disbelieve the Bible.

Why? The New Testament has more going for it than most of the classical literature, and no one minds that that might have been changed a little. You don't wonder if some details of the Iliad had been changed. There are thousands of manuscripts of the various books (manuscript=partial copy), some of which contain ten or more chapters of the longer books, and the entirity of smaller books. These books were written during the time of eyewitnesses to the events that they talk about, and scribes made untold numbers of copies of them. If you don't trust Bible scholars to put them together, try to remember that most of these manuscripts are still available today for studying. The earliest manuscripts of Luke were from only a hundred years after they were written by him. What do you want, the original copy?

And how could Constantine have changed it? Hundreds of Christians died for their beliefs in Jesus Christ under cruel Roman emporers, such as Nero, and they couldn't do a thing to stop it. No, Constantine did the smart thing and won their favor by allowing it to prosper. Most people have given up arguing that Jesus never lived. The whole "Passover Plot" assumes that Jesus could survive being crucified and roll a five ton stone out of the way. There are plausible explainations for everything that even seems like an error. And if you think you know of one, keep in mind that God could speak through metaphors and such.

The Old Testament scribes were amazingly disciplined, so the OT is probably even more accurate than the NT. They don't read something, remember a sentance, and write it out. They don't even remember and write words. They would examine their copy, look next to their place-marker, and make an exact duplication Hebrew letter-by-letter. They did it with religious fervor, and being a Hebrew scribe was a well-paying job. They would also count the number of words, vowels, middle vowels, consonants, find the middle word of each sentance, etc. until they were sure that their copy was perfectly sound. And they would start over if any mistakes were made or found.

The Bible speaks of miracles, people rise from the dead, are cured of leprosy, and are released from prison by earthquakes. Even if the Bible wasn't inspired by God, which I have more arguments for, then it speaks of God's work, or something's work at least, in the world.

[ReTodd]

Ah, a Deist. Thomas Jefferson would agree with you. But the question that arises is: Did God inspire the Bible then? The Bible says that God still works in the world, so to be a Deist, you would have to disbelieve the Bible.
God's work is present through the laws of the physical world that were created by God, out of nothing.

Now the debate revolves around the interpretation of the Bible. Does God interact directly through humans, speaking to us, impregnating virgins? I would say no, God does not interfere with humans rather allowing us make decisions of what is right and what is wrong for ourselves. To believe otherwise implies that we have lost our free will and that our actions are predetermined or influenced by God.

[Office_Shredder]

Well, I slept on it and I think I can provide some better arguments myself. OS, you wink too much. ;)

You linked me to a page full of paleoanthropological records that don't mean squat.

You mentioned the lack of intermediates in the fossil record... I gave you a record of fossils that essentially fills out the fossil record (and in fact even concedes where the gaps are). However, it shows how nearly complete the record is for human evolution, and one can imagine that research will fill in the few places where holes exist.


You gave me some reading, so I'll do the same for you.
Some Surprizing Facts About Evolution (http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/evofacts.htm)
The link at the bottom will take you to the main site. There's a lot of information there, a good deal of which is presented in response to what's offered in your site.

See, this is why ID can't take off as a science. Link me a page that doesn't mention evolution in its argument for intelligent design. Show me a page in which factual, scientific evidence that SUPPORTS ID, to the exclusion of other theories, exists. The page I linked was written in order to support evolution, the page you linked explains why ID could be valid, because of a hole in evolution. However, that doesn't PROVE anything, in fact, it offers evolutionists a new topic of research: why is there a hole there? Instead of killing the theory, pointing out a hole in it simply offers an opportunity for research either to fill the hole, or to modify the theory to support the new observational evidence.

Don't forget that if Christians could have changed whatever they felt like in the Bible, regardless of God's warning at the end of Revelation, Atheists could just as easily be less than thourough in their research. Other Evolutionists have already found some fossils to be doctored and incorrect links.

In case you didn't notice, Intelligent Design is a theory also, a much simpler and probably more plausible one, in fact. Evolution doesn't even account for the creation of the world. :p The fact that the universe is so complicated attests to intelligent design

Funny.... this hypothesis (I'll call it a theory when you present evidence that specifically supports ID) actually makes the complicated universe quite simple... a god created it. Evolution, on the other hand, admits that the universe is complex, and then attempts to explain it. So I think evolution actually makes more of a concession to complexity than ID does (just some food for thought).

I think I'll mention the moral argument, too. Human beings aren't herd animals, we all have an innate desire to better the lives of the people around us. You might argue that love is something that evolved, but how would that trait be naturally selected?

How would it be selected? Easily.... the advantage of humans is that when we work together, our knowledge base, and thus our advantage, increases exponentially. Therefore, anyone who is genetically disposed towards being a loner would have been weeded out, whereas the people willing to work together and better each others lives would have succeeded and breeded. I don't claim to be able to explain why on a chemical level, but evolution would be able to explain this. And our lack of understanding, again, doesn't point to an intelligent designer who made it too complex to understand, but the need for more research.

Like Fenrir said, human beings are only able to compete and beat animals because of their ability to gather into a society and think. Some animals gather into packs and prides, but only for mutual protection and mating. As a human being, though, you'll find yourself making friends for no good reason. That's not natural. Did all those instincts to survive just die?

I think you're making a broad assumption about what is and isn't necessary for survival. Humans need friends more than other species because our strength is strictly intellectual, as opposed to physical. Why doesn't anyone else have an intellectual advantage? Because we were lucky enough to be the first to evolve. I bet if you travel forward to the future, other intelligent species, such as dolphins, would become more intelligent, perhaps to the level we are at one day. Anyways, back to the original question, I think the idea of friendship is simply an instinct to gather together with others for survival (which would, in fact, support evolution). When humanoids (not necessarily modern humans even), lived in the wild, they had to band together to survive. This included trading what each other knew in order to maximize the knowledge base. Likewise, today we still find ourselves banding together with others, although the idea of trading knowledge is obsolete due to other methods of learning and the lack of needing knowledge.

And because no one has ever witnessed macroevolution happen, because there's no evidence of anything remotely similar to macroevolution has happened within recorded history, and because microevolution never produces changes between species, your views require a little faith in the scientists who believe them. It depends on if you'd think that Constantine and "his" Geneva coucil were geniuses capable of faking such a magnificent religion of love and charity as Christianity, or if he would simply accept taking advantage of a simple opportunity to rule an empire while letting it work freely.

Well.... the fossil record clearly shows that species changed over time. Therefore, species either changed somehow, or species were added and removed by some greater power. In this case, evolution is SIMPLER, because the changes in our knowledge of the universe in order to accomodate an infinitely powerful being would be immense. There's no faith, if someone presents a more plausible explanation I'll accept it. The problem is that there has been no simpler, or more seemingly accurate, explanation

[deleryn]

*Warning* loooong post

You mentioned the lack of intermediates in the fossil record... I gave you a record of fossils that essentially fills out the fossil record (and in fact even concedes where the gaps are). However, it shows how nearly complete the record is for human evolution, and one can imagine that research will fill in the few places where holes exist.
Nearly complete? You're still not answering how Homo Habilis somehow turned into Homo Erectus. If they had evolved, then some bones would have traits for every single step in between the two.
See, this is why ID can't take off as a science. Link me a page that doesn't mention evolution in its argument for intelligent design. Show me a page in which factual, scientific evidence that SUPPORTS ID, to the exclusion of other theories, exists. The page I linked was written in order to support evolution, the page you linked explains why ID could be valid, because of a hole in evolution. However, that doesn't PROVE anything, in fact, it offers evolutionists a new topic of research: why is there a hole there? Instead of killing the theory, pointing out a hole in it simply offers an opportunity for research either to fill the hole, or to modify the theory to support the new observational evidence.
If you had actually explored the links, you would find your way to pages such as this one:
A Theory of Biblical Creation (http://www.trueorigin.org/creatheory.asp)
It was written in response to Evolutionists, but still has the information you are asking for. I couldn't explain it half as well as this, because I'm not a scientist. ;)

And if you want evidence of ID, what do you expect, God's footprints? What evidence do you even have that the Big Bang happened the way you hypothesize it did. The universe. It's there. That's the evidence. Giving reasons why my theory is better than yours is the only way to prove ID, because no one was around to record God's actions back then. The theory is simple. God, in his infinite wisdom and power, created the universe the way that it was back when it was first created.
Funny.... this hypothesis (I'll call it a theory when you present evidence that specifically supports ID) actually makes the complicated universe quite simple... a god created it. Evolution, on the other hand, admits that the universe is complex, and then attempts to explain it. So I think evolution actually makes more of a concession to complexity than ID does (just some food for thought).
Munch, munch, munch. So why don't universes form when particles collide in laboratories?
Believing that all of the universe became as it is today, DNA and wormholes came about because some particles collided together (which can be done in laboratory conditions today, without the creation of a universe) requires more faith than belief in an all-powerful God.
You skipped that part. Nothing terribly complicated happens when they cause particles to collide, why doesn't someone change their hypothesis after this experimentation? And if we later find out that a number of universes actually were created, then what's to stop us from thinking that God could've used that method to make the universe? If we involve God, then there's less "chance", even though the chances are such that it would never occur in nature.
How would it be selected? Easily.... the advantage of humans is that when we work together, our knowledge base, and thus our advantage, increases exponentially. Therefore, anyone who is genetically disposed towards being a loner would have been weeded out, whereas the people willing to work together and better each others lives would have succeeded and breeded. I don't claim to be able to explain why on a chemical level, but evolution would be able to explain this. And our lack of understanding, again, doesn't point to an intelligent designer who made it too complex to understand, but the need for more research.
But animals leave members of their pack or herd to die when they can't keep up, whereas humans attempt to keep them alive no matter their condition or use, simply because they are also human. Humans are generally interested in "doing the right thing", but what is that unless something greater than mankind decided what was right and what isn't? Sacrificing part of your own well being to sustain another hopeless human being for a while longer doesn't go along with natural selection. A "herd instinct" can't define what is criminal and what isn't. The point of the moral argument is that something coming from an animal can't collectively decide what is right and wrong as human beings do today. Humans possess a conscience that would not benefit something only concerned with survival.
I think you're making a broad assumption about what is and isn't necessary for survival. Humans need friends more than other species because our strength is strictly intellectual, as opposed to physical. Why doesn't anyone else have an intellectual advantage? Because we were lucky enough to be the first to evolve. I bet if you travel forward to the future, other intelligent species, such as dolphins, would become more intelligent, perhaps to the level we are at one day. Anyways, back to the original question, I think the idea of friendship is simply an instinct to gather together with others for survival (which would, in fact, support evolution). When humanoids (not necessarily modern humans even), lived in the wild, they had to band together to survive. This included trading what each other knew in order to maximize the knowledge base. Likewise, today we still find ourselves banding together with others, although the idea of trading knowledge is obsolete due to other methods of learning and the lack of needing knowledge.
So you argue that those instincts are leftovers. Again, how did morality come around? A inclination to wonder what's right and wrong can't be something that would aid in group relation, and not something that natural selection would bring out in a macroevolving species.
Well.... the fossil record clearly shows that species changed over time. Therefore, species either changed somehow, or species were added and removed by some greater power. In this case, evolution is SIMPLER, because the changes in our knowledge of the universe in order to accomodate an infinitely powerful being would be immense. There's no faith, if someone presents a more plausible explanation I'll accept it. The problem is that there has been no simpler, or more seemingly accurate, explanation
The fossil record only proves that there have been a great number of species around the planet Earth. The great deluge simply scattered the remains of them, and evolutionists attempt to explain where they are located to their liking. They weren't added or removed, they died off and their remains were buried by the forces at work in the world. Also, God made the universe, but that doesn't mean that He occupies it. I personally believe that God is a being that exists outside of space/time somehow.

Everything requires faith. Are you going to wake up again if you go to sleep? Aren't you worried that someone might sneak in and kill you? No, you have faith in your own security measures and in the people around you and you just rest. Is your favorite store open today? It was open the same time last week. You have faith that it won't be shut down or anything and plan on going there today. Is a chair going to break if you sit in it? Is an electrical wire going to shock you if you touch it? Is your mail going to get to your home on time? Is your car going to run safely today?

Same thing if you believe in Evolution. Faith is telling yourself that something must happen or must have happened in a certain way regardless of the possiblities that it might not. All religion or worldviews require faith because there is some question of whether they're true or not. Christians are still collectively reasearching, but you don't recognise it because of your preconcieved notions of it. Christians who live as scientists have done a great many things in attempts to prove the theory of Intelligent Design, of a Young Earth, and the accuracy of the Bible, just like Atheist scientists attempt to prove the theory of Evolution.

If you can argue that millions of Christians have been decieved into thinking that God is there, why shouldn't I argue the possibility that all of your Atheistical scientists haven't been conducting their reasearch in the proper manner? You say that there is more proof, but some of that proof is questionable, in my opinion, and I would prefer to see an unbiased opinion of all of it, including the techniques to excavate, examine, and evaluate some of these fossilized specimens.

[drakonfire]

wow, this forum can't seriously go 3 months without a creationism/evolution debate can it?

well, anyone who has been around long enough (OS has) knows i'm a christian and all for creationism

i'm really liking occums(sp?) razor right now: whats simpler? the universe happened, by shear physics and happenstance, in its infinite complexity, which is repeated in many places, or an intelligent being (IE: God) created it all?

my issue with these debates is this: (okay, i have MANY issues with these debates) - 1: this is a faith issue, OS i don't care how you slice it, it is, you have faith in science, others have faith in God, both require certain leaps of faith, you to trust that human perception and certain assumptions are correct, us to believe there is something more in life, now i understand that to you one of those probably seems a rather small leap, and the other a rather large one, bu me, i see them about the same

2: no one's mind is gonna be changed by any of this (okay, maybe they will, but they would have to read through all the links, and anyone who does that is usually so far on one side they don't really read it, either of us)

3: i just... nothing about creation can be proved conclusively, there are theories that explain the creationism version, there are also those that explain the secular evolution theory, *shrugs*

all that to say, guys, what are you really doing here? specifically you christians, are you fighting for your faith, or are you fighting a humanly impossible to win battle in order to be "right"? --- this thread is over 10 pages, more than enough time for all of you to get an accurate pictures of everyon elses beliefs, isn't that the point really? "here is what i believe and why. how about you?" and then LISTEN with an open mind, learn what you can, and apply that to your understanding of that person? (i say that to everyone)

one more point for those fighting from the christian side - very, very few people on this planet have been converted through science in this late age across an internet forum, i urge you to again think about why you are arguing this

-EDIT-

shoot man, i just looked at the first post in this thread, OS you were looking for a fight weren't you? *shrugs*

my fav verse is rather long, psalm 51, all of it, it speaks to me, as one who has had to overcome a lot of personal sin, i also enjoy psalm 23

[Office_Shredder]

If you had actually explored the links, you would find your way to pages such as this one:
A Theory of Biblical Creation (http://www.trueorigin.org/creatheory.asp)
It was written in response to Evolutionists, but still has the information you are asking for. I couldn't explain it half as well as this, because I'm not a scientist. ;)

I understand that it compares creationism to evolution in terms of scientific rigor... and yet I saw no actual explanation of scientific evidence supporting creationism. All it did was lead me to a couple of journals that are full of science mumbo jumbo I have no want to sort through. An example of evolutionary support:
"The fossil record shows that species changed over time, because older fossils are of species distinct from current species". A little summary like that would be nice. Instead I have to dig through these articles that open with

Well-rounded coarse gravel provides clues to the depositional process. The coarse gravel of the Mogollon Rim in central and northern Arizona, called Rim Gravel, was examined at two widely separated and representative locations. Further characteristics of the coarse gravel was obtained from the literature. The coarse gravel occupies the highest terrain in the region and is very coarse in east-central Arizona. It is deduced that this coarse gravel was deposited as a sheet and eroded into remnants during the Recessional Stage of the Genesis Flood. We conclude that the Rim Gravel provides evidence that the Flood/post-Flood (D/P) boundary corresponds to the stratigraphic location of rocks termed “late Cenozoic” in the uniformitarian geological column in this part of the western United States. This interpretation is relevant to theories for the formation of many notable geomorphic features, including the Grand Canyon of the Colorado River.

As an ABSTRACT!

And if you want evidence of ID, what do you expect, God's footprints? What evidence do you even have that the Big Bang happened the way you hypothesize it did. The universe. It's there. That's the evidence. Giving reasons why my theory is better than yours is the only way to prove ID, because no one was around to record God's actions back then. The theory is simple. God, in his infinite wisdom and power, created the universe the way that it was back when it was first created.

See... ok, the universe is evidence of god. What use is that scientifically? Why should I assume evolution isn't true too? God could have created the big bang, then let things just run their course. There's no reason to believe that he then decided to plot every atom's course through the rest of history.

Munch, munch, munch. So why don't universes form when particles collide in laboratories?

I didn't get this reference... can you please explain?

You skipped that part. Nothing terribly complicated happens when they cause particles to collide, why doesn't someone change their hypothesis after this experimentation? And if we later find out that a number of universes actually were created, then what's to stop us from thinking that God could've used that method to make the universe? If we involve God, then there's less "chance", even though the chances are such that it would never occur in nature.

Oh.... so now evolution is attempting to prove the big bang? If you want to argue against the big bang, go ahead, but please don't try to link it with evolution.

But animals leave members of their pack or herd to die when they can't keep up, whereas humans attempt to keep them alive no matter their condition or use, simply because they are also human. Humans are generally interested in "doing the right thing", but what is that unless something greater than mankind decided what was right and what isn't? Sacrificing part of your own well being to sustain another hopeless human being for a while longer doesn't go along with natural selection. A "herd instinct" can't define what is criminal and what isn't. The point of the moral argument is that something coming from an animal can't collectively decide what is right and wrong as human beings do today. Humans possess a conscience that would not benefit something only concerned with survival.

http://www.montgomerycountynews.net/religion10-13-04.htm

Of specific interest:
"When a goose gets sick, wounded, or shot down, two geese drop out of formation and follow it down to help and protect it. They stay with it until it dies or is able to fly again. Then, they launch out with another formation or catch up with the flock."

One example I found on google in under a minute


The fossil record only proves that there have been a great number of species around the planet Earth. The great deluge simply scattered the remains of them, and evolutionists attempt to explain where they are located to their liking. They weren't added or removed, they died off and their remains were buried by the forces at work in the world

I assume by great deluge you mean the flood in the bible. So how come there aren't any 65 million year old human bones?

Everything requires faith. Are you going to wake up again if you go to sleep? Aren't you worried that someone might sneak in and kill you? No, you have faith in your own security measures and in the people around you and you just rest. Is your favorite store open today? It was open the same time last week. You have faith that it won't be shut down or anything and plan on going there today. Is a chair going to break if you sit in it? Is an electrical wire going to shock you if you touch it? Is your mail going to get to your home on time? Is your car going to run safely today?

Umm... I don't have faith that I'm going to not be killed... I just figure that the odds are low enough that it's not worth my time to protect against it. Same with the rest of your examples.

Christians who live as scientists have done a great many things in attempts to prove the theory of Intelligent Design, of a Young Earth, and the accuracy of the Bible, just like Atheist scientists attempt to prove the theory of Evolution.

First off, atheists aren't the only ones who think evolution is correct.... a lot of people who believe in various forms of god do also. It's mostly christians who support ID, simply because it's necessary for creationism.

If you can argue that millions of Christians have been decieved into thinking that God is there, why shouldn't I argue the possibility that all of your Atheistical scientists haven't been conducting their reasearch in the proper manner? You say that there is more proof, but some of that proof is questionable, in my opinion, and I would prefer to see an unbiased opinion of all of it, including the techniques to excavate, examine, and evaluate some of these fossilized specimens.

Who could provide that unbiased opinion? How about... I don't know... the pope? He believes in the same religion you do (ok, a bit different, but it's the same basics), and yet the catholic church is willing to concede that evolution is true, and was the method through which god shaped the world.

[Kyir]

Humans are generally interested in "doing the right thing"


suuuuuure :rolleyes:
(still postwhoring, 3 more to go :P)

[deleryn]

drakonfire-
Actually, the debate is kinda fun. Plus, it proves that Creationism isn't just a stupid theory that people believe because they were raised on it.

People can't be converted through sheer facts, that's why apologetics is just an attempt to prove that it isn't unreasonable. That leaves the door open for the appeal to a religion thats full of morality and self-discipline. Atheists could have good families, if they are charismatic enough, but many Christians find fulfillment in their loving relationships. Also, Christianity is a sort of crutch. Human beings aren't remotely near perfect, but good Christians can attain something very close.

Personally, it doesn't matter what state my family and friends are in because I have the Lord's confidence in me. No matter how Hellish life gets, I know that He will guide me through it, and He has. I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for my faith, but I can deal with things that would cause you to become bitter and remorseful because of it today.

Office_Shredder-
That part was separate from my arguments with you. There's still not enough evidence in Evolution for someone mildly skeptical. You could argue that children are being hypnotized into religion from a too-young age, I could argue that children are being hypnotized into non-religion from a too-young age.

You gave me a link, I gave you a link. :p You can get to both of the places I had previously linked you to from here (http://www.trueorigin.org/). Did you think I enjoyed sifting through your site?

You aren't getting my point. There isn't anything you can do in a laboratory to prove Intelligent Design. It stands well against all the other hypothesis that can't be proven with scientific evidence. If it can be logically proven to not happen a different way, then it happened that way. You drew the Big Bang into it, which is the theory that Atheists support, by talking about Intelligent Design. It doesn't matter that it wasn't scientifically proven. An appeal to logic can be made.

You silly, little man, you only brought up Intelligent Design so you could try to make some stupid point that it isn't a scientific theory. Well, what do you expect from religion!

Also, geese don't try to know right from wrong, a goose with a broken wing isn't the same as a helpless vegetable--it can still be useful, faith can be measured in odds, the Pope doesn't mandate how the species came to exist, the bones found in the ground don't especially attest that something evolved, and if your evolutionary scientists think that some species that are similar, evolved from one another, then they'll simply need more proof of it. This argument is sort of dwindling down.

Ever hear of Pascal's wager? My religion has a lot more hope than yours, as far as odds go.

Kyir-There are some exceptions, and people become desensitized to it, but a great number of humans are concerned in appeasing their consciences.

P.S. I have only one more postwhoring to go :rolleyes:

[drakonfire]

ha! mad props deleryn, that is an excellent reason, enjoy you apologetics then, if you wish to do more background on what all has been explored on this forum ( i haven't looked, so i don't know if you have already done so in the pages between 1 and this) then simply do a search for some of the key phrases being tossed about here, you'll find my name plenty, i promise ;)

good luck and God bless you

[Match Strike]

Who could provide that unbiased opinion? How about... I don't know... the pope? He believes in the same religion you do (ok, a bit different, but it's the same basics), and yet the catholic church is willing to concede that evolution is true, and was the method through which god shaped the world.
Thusly, the two (God and Evolution) are not mutually exclusive. They are simply of different areas. Stephen J. Gould, an excellent writer, illustrates this point beautifully in his piece "Nonoverlapping Magisteria." (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html)

In it, he describes the relationship of the Catholic church to science, and explains why The Catholic church has accepted Evolution. I'd reccomend reading the whole thing, but if you don't, it essentially states that the two (evolution and God) are of different realms. Evolution is a scientific theory, and science by defenition cannot prove the existence of God. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Most humans DO believe in some sort of god/diety.

"I do not doubt that one could find an occasional nun who would prefer to teach creationism in her parochial school biology class or an occasional orthodox rabbi who does the same in his yeshiva, but creationism based on biblical literalism makes little sense in either Catholicism or Judaism for neither religion maintains any extensive tradition for reading the Bible as literal truth rather than illuminating literature, based partly on metaphor and allegory (essential components of all good writing) and demanding interpretation for proper understanding. Most Protestant groups, of course, take the same position—the fundamentalist fringe notwithstanding." (Gould, paragraph 6)

It is the role of the church to deal with matters of spirituality. Science cannot by its very nature deal with such matters. They are seperate. Let them be.

[Fenrir]

Sounds like you need to find out the meaning of life. But you wouldn't believe me if I tried to tell you my take on it, I bet. I'm only seventeen years old, but it seems to me like humanity is very young compared to the Lord, and it often seems like simple disipline is something extremely harsh to someone younger. I think that some of the things God does appear drastic, but are really God dealing out justice and discipline where it is required, like a good father in a large family. The father doesn't "get giggles" from it, but knows it it necessary.

I know that suicide, rape, murder, theft, death, misery, and such happen every day, but if such thing weren't there, could we really trust that humanity would be better? If God just made life a simple task, would it be as fulfilling to succeed? It would be better to trust in God, methinks.

Can you tell me? I might not believe it, but that does not necessarily mean I'll disrespect it. I would like to hear.

[drakonfire]

match strike, that sounds like an interesting book, out of curiousity have you read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict?" -- deleryn i bet you would enjoy it too, from everything my mom (a very christian woman) has told me about it anyway, i've not read it myself sadly, but you might look into it and see what you think, amazon.com will let you read the first few pages of it.

[Kyir]

Kyir-There are some exceptions, and people become desensitized to it, but a great number of humans are concerned in appeasing their consciences.


my what now? :eek:

[2 more]

[Chaosti]

Being debated where? There are many different debates in many different places. Why do you attempt to limit your response? I can tell you why.
people who know their arguments are doomed to fail always try and limit the possible answers available in order to make their side look more right. You say only choice A or B is possible, becuase it would be more likely than A B C or D being available.
If you are that scared of being wrong, continue on. If you actually have a mind of your own, look at all possabilities before just spewing forth the same answer someone has commanded you to give,

why am i limiting my response? because expounding in other issues detracts from the simple point i was trying to make. the point i made really had nothing to do with whether or not an intelligent creator exists or not. it is merely this statement: life with intelligent design has meaning; life without intelligent design does not. simple. it is not an argument for either. your statement just strengthens my statement because you pose the theory that an higher being created the amino acids from which we came, with the purpose that we evolve. maybe i wasn't clear enough at first, by stating theory of evolution in my earlier statement. but this time my statement is more clear. if that is where the confusion is, then i'll relent that the earlier statement is flawed. if not, we can squabble some more. though i would ask that you be a bit more respectful. i am not scared. i have a mind of my own. no one commanded me to give that answer. if my argument was doomed to fail, then there'd be no point in posing it in the first place. for someone who seems to be criticizing me of not considering possibilities, you seemed to be very confident that you can identify the motives and feelings of someone you really don't know at all.

i'll go a little bit further to explain myself. i think a good way to present an argument is to start simple. if you can't come together on the very basics, then theres really no point in going further. for example, theres really no point in trying to convince someone that the sky is blue if you can't even convince him that the sky exists. in the same way, theres no point in convincing someone that God is loving and benevolent if you can't convince that person that there is an intelligent creator in the first place. it's about baby steps. establishing a base and working from there. thats what im trying to do. im posing a statement that supporters and opposers of intelligent design can come together on.

[deleryn]

Can you tell me? I might not believe it, but that does not necessarily mean I'll disrespect it. I would like to hear.

My father would ask me all the time if I had found out the meaning of life yet when I was littler. I thought about it a lot since then, and I'm still not sure about it, but I eventually I thought up something after I read a silly book and thought of the way that less intelligent creatures work.

Life is generally self-centered. A wild animal isn't going to be concerned about much other than survival, mating, and territory, in that order. Some of the things the Lord commands the Christian to do don't appear to be of a self-centered nature, though. You might argue that mankind was meant to be naturally full of love and charity, and that the Original Sin stole that "goodness" from us. But when they are examined in detail, the things that God commands us to do are for our own good. There are obvious reasons why adultery and avarice can be a corrupting agent to one's mind and spirt. I happen to wonder, though, if life for the human was meant to be extremely self-centered, and if there is a difference between self-centeredness (for lack of a better word) and selfishness. It is difficult to consider myself as anything less than the protagonist in any sort of situation, even one where I seek to profit from the loss of someone less fortunate than me. For example, I would seek a relationship with a female currently friendly with some despicable sod simply because the prospects of a relationship with her would be attractive. It wouldn't matter that they would have less time to spend together, my desires for a loving wife and a family are more important than his need for a friend. I would not make an attempt to squash him, I would still be concerned with his welfare, but his friendship would be secondary to one of the great desires of my life.

I have been thinking more and more, lately, that God intends for each and every member of mankind to watch out for him or her self first and consider their own needs and desires before all others in a very unselfish way. It wouldn't be very helpful if some people were truly selfless and required the rest of society to pick them up and bring them along. However, there are desires and there are sinful desires, so God allowed humanity to read His Word to find His will in the matter, and thus founded morality. It isn't like morality causes whoever believes in it to miss out in some greater joy, it just requires all pleasures to be gained in a manner that doesn't cause a deterioration of spirit. In the end, it would allow a person who follows it to fulfill God's original purposes.

I don't mean to say that selfless people, such as Mother Theresa, shouldn't exist. She would be an example of a "self-centered" life with a goal of advancing personal spirituality by helping others. She may not have ended her life with much material wealth or biological children, but she had a close relationship with God and a great number of spiritual children. Everyone has different desires, and I am currently pondering if God meant, when He created life, to work His will by allowing some and rejecting others out of all of those desires. If that were true, than the meaning of life is simply to pursue your desires--which would've been perfectly acceptable before the Fall. I believe that eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil didn't just cause separation from God, it also caused mankind to "judge" morality for itself, what's wrong and what's right, which is why there are a great number of problems and spiritually dead people in the world. A disciple of Christ is, then, a person who wishes to have a relationship with God similar to before the Fall and to follow their own God-given desires based on what God intended for their morality.

It is difficult sometimes, because there is a great amount of suffering and God would be doing less than allowing humanity to have free will if He prevented it, but is there really any reason why humans shouldn't be thankful for anything that God has given them? Pain is a passing sensation, despair is just an illusion of hopelessness, and fear is only an unwillingness to let go--is there any reason why we should be less than grateful? There is a simple joy in breathing, thinking, and existing as a human being that not many other things have going for them.

I don't know what that sounds like, and I probably should talk it over with some of the more experienced Christians that I know, but it looks sensible to me. I don't know if it would help you to know what I think, but I just figured it couldn't hurt.

[Kyir]

It is difficult sometimes, because there is a great amount of suffering and God would be doing less than allowing humanity to have free will if He prevented it, but is there really any reason why humans shouldn't be thankful for anything that God has given them? Pain is a passing sensation, despair is just an illusion of hopelessness, and fear is only an unwillingness to let go--is there any reason why we should be less than grateful? There is a simple joy in breathing, thinking, and existing as a human being that not many other things have going for them.


Pain hurts weather (or is it wether?) it's passing or not, Despair sucks even if it is a illusion, Fear still exists when I see things that scare the shit out of me :P.

Breathing's over-rated :p , and I'd rather play computer games then tihnk (why do you think I'm on a online forum).

btw, 5001 posts :]

[Fenrir]

Deleryn,
I somewhat agree with that philosophy. Although mine was not based on anything spiritual - it is very similar. When I was a very young boy, my father bought me Call Of The Wild by Jack London. I absolutely loved the story of Buck and his journey from a domestic Southland pet to a hardened Northland beast. As he makes that transformation, he keeps hearing a call. Something is calling him to some unknown destination - that destination being a purpose. The only thing stopping Buck from heeding this call is his ties with his human owners. When they are all killed, he has no reason to stay behind, and he follows the call. Where it brings him is into the wild, to become the wolf his ancestors were and which he was born to be. The leader of the pack.

When I first read it I found it to be nothing more than a story full of adventure and excitement, for I was far too young to draw any greater meaning out of it. Some twenty years later I read the book again (and loved it just as much, if not more), and drew a very abstract meaning out of it - that we all have a call we must heed. During Buck's endeavors, he passes through many owners. Ultimately Buck will cut all his ties with humans and become a thing of the wild, that is his meaning - his destination. But on his way there many things happen to him. None of these things matter, and no matter what happens they can not change where he is going. I believe this true for all living creatures, we all have a call. We all have some sort of call to heed. We will pass through many experiences in life, but no matter what they are they can not change what our calling is. I'm not saying that all people will reach this call, but I am saying that everyone has it. Whether it's to marry a particular person, to cure cancer, or to retire to solitude - we all have one. This is one aspect of selfishness I believe is justified.

After my years of service I feel I've lost my call. I can't hear it anymore, and I don't know if I'll ever reach it. When I was green I believed that by finally becoming a soldier I had heeded to my call, but after years of soldiering and touring I realized that it was all that I could do. I wasn't living out any destiny, I was fighting. The dogs of war lose what we were heeding, and I believe I may have too.

[battle composed]

One of my favourite author is Jack London. It's weird because I have not read a single book of his to date, a passage from his book The Sea-Wolf touched me, a few lines my tutor recited to us quite a few years back.

To me, I feel that the meaning of life is not set in stone. It is unique to everyone who walks through their time.

To ask a child the meaning of life is simply to stump him, for he who has not walked through life, how will he know it?

[h()()t]

meh, Christian thread? How about a thread for all religions.

Cuss we dont want any towel heads talking bout fake Gods in here!!

[Office_Shredder]

i'm really liking occums(sp?) razor right now: whats simpler? the universe happened, by shear physics and happenstance, in its infinite complexity, which is repeated in many places, or an intelligent being (IE: God) created it all?


I don't see how an invisible being that can destroy all evidence specifically of his existence, change the course of history at will, effect anything at any time at any distance with no decrease in ability over distance, is simpler than natural selection (I can't just let you get the only word in like that! Now we're even :) ).



shoot man, i just looked at the first post in this thread, OS you were looking for a fight weren't you? *shrugs*

Actually, I just find that quote amusing personally... it's like reading a newspaper article about a robber who holds up a police department... you just have to think "what the hell was he thinking?" Naturally, I'm not going to post a quote about how wonderful god is, but I can still find parts of the bible interesting. I wasn't looking for a fight until my third post, because for some reason I took offense when deathbydarkness started calling everyone who doesn't believe in the christian god a pig

[mushroom_girl]

to me there is only ONE religion
:mellow:

When it comes to religion, I don't shut down anything. Anything is possible.

If there is a God, and he is so wonderful and spectacular, then he will forgive any sins I have made, including not worshipping him. I choose not to kill people or go against most of the 10 commandments (in the Catholic religion) because it's just common sense to me. Like not killing people.

Go ahead and call me a sinner or whatever. I was baptised, had a communion, refused to have a confirmation. I guess I'm going to hell.

And isn't there already a religion thread?

[Sluff]

And isn't there already a religion thread?

Only if your talking about the satanist thread Insig made ;)

[deathbydarkness]

Only if your talking about the satanist thread Insig made ;)

which is just a knock-off on mine!:bigsmile:

[Kyir]

which is just a knock-off on mine!:bigsmile:

it's far better though ;)

[deathbydarkness]

it's far better though ;)

o of corse when GOD and satan go head to head satan wins right?? WRONG! the bible clearly states many cases in which satan has to ask GOD for permission to do things (Job for one) and it also shows that satan and his demons are scared of GOD.....they cant stay around when people talk of GOD or the BIBLE......not to mention GOD cast satan out of heaven!:bigsmile:

GOD RULES!

[mushroom_girl]

o of corse when GOD and satan go head to head satan wins right?? WRONG! the bible clearly states many cases in which satan has to ask GOD for permission to do things
Oh I feel like causing controversy. :rolleyes:

How are you so sure that the Bible is telling the truth? Why can't another holy book be correct?

[deathbydarkness]

ugh weve been trhough this.....the bible is the only "holy" book that is GODLY inspiried and its completely inerrant

[mushroom_girl]

ugh weve been trhough this.....the bible is the only "holy" book that is GODLY inspiried and its completely inerrant
Well then, what makes you so sure that another religion is not correct in it's belief?

[deathbydarkness]

nothing if it believes the bible

[Thash500]

Hey deathbydarkness, are you 16?

[deathbydarkness]

um yes why?????

[mushroom_girl]

nothing if it believes the bible
So you're saying that there's nothing to prove that some other religion is wrong?

I'm not quite clear on what you meant by this.

[Thash500]

um yes why?????

Holy crap, you are 16!

I thought you should be more mature at that age.:cool:

[deathbydarkness]

So you're saying that there's nothing to prove that some other religion is wrong?

this is to broad what religion and i will tell you what i believe is wrong about it

Holy crap, you are 16!

I thought you should be more mature at that age.:cool:

and you need to shutup.....

[mushroom_girl]

this is to broad what religion and i will tell you what i believe is wrong about it
I'm not talking about a specific religion. Just any religion. I honestly don't want to know what you think about each and every one, just who are you to say that you're correct?

[deathbydarkness]

I'm not talking about a specific religion. Just any religion. I honestly don't want to know what you think about each and every one, just who are you to say that you're correct?

i am myself to say i am correct....what kind of question is that? unless someone can prove my religion wrong to me then it aint gunna happen!

[mushroom_girl]

i am myself to say i am correct....what kind of question is that? unless someone can prove my religion wrong to me then it aint gunna happen!
Ok, let me rephrase it: What makes you so special that you can say which religion is right or wrong?

Currently, I'm having a hard time believing that you're 16.

[Kyir]

and you need to shutup.....

well, now you sound like a 5 year old :dry:

o of corse when GOD and satan go head to head satan wins right?? WRONG! the bible clearly states many cases in which satan has to ask GOD for permission to do things (Job for one) and it also shows that satan and his demons are scared of GOD.....they cant stay around when people talk of GOD or the BIBLE......not to mention GOD cast satan out of heaven!:bigsmile:

GOD RULES!

but satan gave me beer, what has god done for me lately ;]

[deathbydarkness]

well, now you sound like a 5 year old :dry:



but satan gave me beer, what has god done for me lately ;]

wow.....thats bad......GOD GAVE YOU YOUR LIFE! satan has tried to take it from you thats what each of them has done for you.....

[Kyir]

wow.....thats bad......GOD GAVE YOU YOUR LIFE! satan has tried to take it from you thats what each of them has done for you.....

no... I'm pretty sure that was my parents doing...

Lrn2tnk?

[Thash500]

Where is god? Can you bring me a picture of him?

[mushroom_girl]

GOD GAVE YOU YOUR LIFE!
...I thought my parents were the ones who did that.

Answer my question, dammit!

[Kyir]

...I thought my parents were the ones who did that.

Answer my question, dammit!

I already said that, get your own >.>

[deathbydarkness]

no... I'm pretty sure that was my parents doing...

Lrn2tnk?

that is so ignorant.....so do you want to go to hell?

Where is god? Can you bring me a picture of him?

you cant see GOD

...I thought my parents were the ones who did that.

Answer my question, dammit!

what question? and please dont use profanity in this thread

[Thash500]

Death, are you a sophomore or junior in HS?

If I can't see him, then how do I know he exists?

[deathbydarkness]

junior

[mushroom_girl]

that is so ignorant.....so do you want to go to hell?
But he's telling the truth. Don't be hypocritical.
you cant see GOD
Then how do you know he exists?
what question?
What makes you so special that you can say which religion is right or wrong?
_________________________________________________
I already said that, get your own >.>
But I thought of it first. Ha!

[Thash500]

You are a junior!!??!??!

Dang, what is your PSAT score?

And M_G's question is just a few posts above your head.:cool:

[deathbydarkness]

But he's telling the truth. Don't be hypocritical.

Then how do you know he exists?

What makes you so special that you can say which religion is right or wrong?


i know he exists because i have faith....you must have faith in ANY belief and i am not more special than any other....i said my faith to me is the only one until someone proves it wrong!

You are a junior!!??!??!

Dang, what is your PSAT score?

apparently higher than yours....

[Kyir]

that is so ignorant.....so do you want to go to hell?

no... mostley because it dosn't exist. Kinda like your so called "heaven"


you cant see GOD

how do I know he exists then, can I smell/hear/touch/taste him?



what question? and please dont use profanity in this thread

why? will it piss "god" off?

[deathbydarkness]

no... mostley because it dosn't exist. Kinda like your so called "heaven"

how do I know he exists then, can I smell/hear/touch/taste him?

why? will it piss "god" off?


#1 then what happens when you die?

#2 i believe him by faith and the BIBLE

#3 no it will piss "me" off

[Spit_101]

Kyir. Please stop. You and everyone else knows death can back himself up with a decent post.

=P

[Spit_101]

#2 i believe him by faith and the BIBLENo christian bases his whole belief on the Bible. O_o

[deathbydarkness]

No christian bases his whole belief on the Bible.

what else does he base it on?.....GOD!

[mushroom_girl]

i know he exists because i have faith....you must have faith in ANY belief and i am not more special than any other....i said my faith to me is the only one until someone proves it wrong!
1) You CANNOT tell anyone what to believe. Your faith is no more special than mine. I believe in self-faith, I don't need God to make me a good person. I've donated to charity, helped my family, and overcome many hardships without ever praying.

2) If God exists, I like to believe that he will forgive me. Christianity says that we are all his children, so he should accept us into "heaven" no matter what. I have not truly sinned. I do not see how going to a "holy" building and sitting there for 2 hours is a great thing to do. I could be doing something so much better with my time, like sleeping.

Please stop being so ignorant, it hurts my eyes.

[Kyir]

No real christian bases his whole belief on the Bible. O_o

fixed it?

(black text dosn't work on anyone spit :P, get on AIM)

[Spit_101]

what else does he base it on?.....GOD!Your belief in God is God? :confused:

[mushroom_girl]

#1 then what happens when you die?
Who knows? You have no better idea than I do.

#2 i believe him by faith and the BIBLE
Once again, don't tell me what to do. I'm not trying to get you to not believe in God, I'm just trying to understand you better.

#3 no it will piss "me" off
Oh no, ph34r!

[Kyir]

#1 then what happens when you die?

a eternity of nothingness, people made up heaven so people will all be good little toys

#2 i believe him by faith and the BIBLE

why do you capitilize some words? :confused:
#3 no it will piss "me" off
I care why?

[deathbydarkness]

1) You CANNOT tell anyone what to believe. Your faith is no more special than mine. I believe in self-faith, I don't need God to make me a good person. I've donated to charity, helped my family, and overcome many hardships without ever praying.

2) If God exists, I like to believe that he will forgive me. Christianity says that we are all his children, so he should accept us into "heaven" no matter what. I have not truly sinned. I do not see how going to a "holy" building and sitting there for 2 hours is a great thing to do. I could be doing something so much better with my time, like sleeping.

Please stop being so ignorant, it hurts my eyes.

YOU HAVE SINNED! you cant be perfect and just "work" your way into heaven! you just think that you are good enough to get into heaven? so GOD should "accept" you? thats so pridefull its scary! you have to ask GOD for your forgiveness......not to accept you......

[deathbydarkness]

a eternity of nothingness, people made up heaven so people will all be good little toys

why do you capitilize some words? :confused:

I care why?

#1 ok u can believe what you want, but you dont have any proof of that at least i have the BIBLE

#2 i capitalize the important words pertaining to GOD

#3 now thats ignorant

[Spit_101]

2) If God exists, I like to believe that he will forgive me. Christianity says that we are all his children, so he should accept us into "heaven" no matter what. I have not truly sinned. I do not see how going to a "holy" building and sitting there for 2 hours is a great thing to do. I could be doing something so much better with my time, like sleeping.

Please stop being so ignorant, it hurts my eyes.You think God will accept you into heaven if you think he will let you in because you think you're "good"?

[mushroom_girl]

YOU HAVE SINNED! you cant be perfect and just "work" your way into heaven! you just think that you are good enough to get into heaven? so GOD should "accept" you? thats so pridefull its scary! you have to ask GOD for your forgiveness......not to accept you......
Who said I was perfect? I make so many mistakes it's not even funny! I'm the farthest thing from being perfect. Stop shoving words in my mouth.

Yes, God should accept me because I am no less important than you. Just because you choose to sit in a church every sunday doesn't make you a better person.

I do not need to ask him for forgiveness. I did not say anything bad about God, I just said that I don't believe in him.

[Kyir]

#1 ok u can believe what you want, but you dont have any proof of that at least i have the BIBLE

so you have a book... hooray?

#2 i capitalize the important words pertaining to GOD

why?

#3 now thats ignorant

no, it's me saying that I don't really care about what you think

don't even try to argue, you'll lose agian, and this is getting really close to spam

[deathbydarkness]

Who said I was perfect? I make so many mistakes it's not even funny! I'm the farthest thing from being perfect. Stop shoving words in my mouth.

Yes, God should accept me because I am no less important than you. Just because you choose to sit in a church every sunday doesn't make you a better person.

I do not need to ask him for forgiveness. I did not say anything bad about God, I just said that I don't believe in him.

thats rediculous......from the BIBLE "All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD"......you cannot just say "o GOD should accept me cuz i think im good......theres to many "i" in the statement and not enough GOD

[mushroom_girl]

don't even try to argue, you'll lose agian, and this is getting really close to spam
No, this is talking about God. It's completely on subject. Argue away! :)

[Spit_101]

Yes, God should accept me because I am no less important than you. Just because you choose to sit in a church every sunday doesn't make you a better person. It means I listen to what God asks of me.

[Thash500]

Who wrote the Bible anyway, Death?

[mushroom_girl]

thats rediculous......from the BIBLE "All have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD"......you cannot just say "o GOD should accept me cuz i think im good......theres to many "i" in the statement and not enough GOD
I don't believe in the Bible. I think the Bible is nonsense.

I don't even think God exists. If he does, I'd like proof. Until then, I will wait until I die and go to "hell".

[Kyir]

No, this is talking about God. It's completely on subject. Argue away! :)

no, it's more shit spewing from DBD's mouth ;]

[deathbydarkness]

so you have a book... hooray?

why?

no, it's me saying that I don't really care about what you think

don't even try to argue, you'll lose agian, and this is getting really close to spam

#1 you have no proof is what im saying

#2 its important enough to me to do that if you dont like it deal with it

#3 ok then leave

#4 its not spam

[Spit_101]

I don't believe in the Bible. I think the Bible is nonsense.

I don't even think God exists. If he does, I'd like proof. Until then, I will wait until I die and go to "hell".The only reason people dislike the Bible is that random people take it and form their "own" church.

The Bible has been mocked so many times that no one really cares for it anymore. Which is bad.

[deathbydarkness]

Who wrote the Bible anyway, Death?

40 authors over a span of 1500 years that were inspired by GOD.....this is more proof that the BIBLE is inerrant because they had no communication with eachother and there are no controversies in the BIBLE try to do that today and you will fail without GOD....

I don't believe in the Bible. I think the Bible is nonsense.

I don't even think God exists. If he does, I'd like proof. Until then, I will wait until I die and go to "hell".

all of creation proves GOD......also you dont have time to wait and go to hell....

[Kyir]

#1 you have no proof is what im saying

neither do you, cry more nub

#2 its important enough to me to do that if you dont like it deal with it

you deal with it, I can swear when I wan't to (unless a mod tell me not to -_-)

#3 ok then leave

#4 its not spam

no, yes it is

[Hatchet Klown]

The TAO Bible has a few commandments of its own..

1: Thou Shall Not Boost!
2: Thou Shall Not Be a Hax0r!
3: Thou Shall Respect Thy Moderators and Administrators!
4: Thou Shall Not Be a Nub!
- Ask Questions, and Learn
5: Thou Shall Not Be a Post Whore!
6: Thou Shall Not Be a Stat Whore!
7: Thou Shall Not Be a Rep Whore!
8: Thou Shall Not Flame Excessively!
9: Thou Shall Not Spam!
10: Thou Shall Not Take Gods (Bills) Name in Vein!

These were delivered to me under a burning tree, by Bills himself!

So has been said, so shall be followed!

[deathbydarkness]

neither do you, cry more nub

you deal with it, I can swear when I wan't to (unless a mod tell me not to -_-)


no, yes it is


im done with your questions until you have a intelligent one....:dry:

[mushroom_girl]

It means I listen to what God asks of me.
And I don't. But I don't see how not going to church makes me a bad person.

I'm not telling any of you to stop believing in him, but I'm trying to understand where your proof comes from.

[Kyir]

anyway DBD, The Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/)

is a much better theory, sorry :D

[deathbydarkness]

The TAO Bible has a few commandments of its own..

1: Thou Shall Not Boost!
2: Thou Shall Not Be a Hax0r!
3: Thou Shall Respect Thy Moderators and Administrators!
4: Thou Shall Not Be a Nub!
- Ask Questions, and Learn
5: Thou Shall Not Be a Post Whore!
6: Thou Shall Not Be a Stat Whore!
7: Thou Shall Not Be a Rep Whore!
8: Thou Shall Not Flame Excessively!
9: Thou Shall Not Spam!
10: Thou Shall Not Take Gods (Bills) Name in Vein!

These were delivered to me under a burning tree, by Bills himself!

So has been said, so shall be followed!

SHUTUP HATCHET....

[kegsworth]

Hey DBD,

Remember what I said about 'pearls before swine'?

Just something to think about.

[Spit_101]

And I don't. But I don't see how not going to church makes me a bad person.It isn't. You're not a bad person. But I'm just a Catholic. ;)

I'm not telling any of you to stop believing in him, but I'm trying to understand where your proof comes from.The Shroud of Turin.

[deathbydarkness]

And I don't. But I don't see how not going to church makes me a bad person.

I'm not telling any of you to stop believing in him, but I'm trying to understand where your proof comes from.

not going to church does NOT make you a bad person....thats just something we believe is a good thing to do to become closer to GOD......denying GOD does make you a bad person though.....

Hey DBD,

Remember what I said about 'pearls before swine'?

Just something to think about.

what are you talking about?

[mushroom_girl]

all of creation proves GOD......also you dont have time to wait and go to hell....
No it does not. I believe in the evolution theory, not in some almighty being.

And I have plenty of time, I have my whole life to wait for it!

[endless]

And i just repped this guy actually. Stupid of me.

First. You sir, are an idiot. Stop pressing that your beleifs that are right and that if people dont beleive they are sinners.

I know your going to argue back against me after reading this but if you get one thing from my post its this.

I don't beleive in a god. I dont try to stop people from beleiveing in a god. Same thing goes for you. You shouldnt make people beleive that your views of god are right. If someone thinks that their tree in their front yard is god. KNOCK YOURSELF OUT. Its not your job to decide for them what they want to beleive.

You just an ignorant kid who hasnt seen what life is like yet.

And just to piss you off. God Damn This Thread.

[Kyir]

SHUTUP HATCHET....

are you a wee bit upset that he just made a post thats better then the OP?

[Hatchet Klown]

DBD, your still a noob. A Post Whore, and flat out a retard. Please either post some intelligence, or stop posting.

EDIT:

are you a wee bit upset that he just made a post thats better then the OP?

Thanks Kyir! ^_^

[deathbydarkness]

No it does not. I believe in the evolution theory, not in some almighty being.

And I have plenty of time, I have my whole life to wait for it!

#1 prove evolution....you cant

#2 what if you die in a car accident goin somewhere TODAY! you never know....and you never have "plenty of time"

[Kyir]

not going to church does NOT make you a bad person....thats just something we believe is a good thing to do to become closer to GOD......denying GOD does make you a bad person though.....


So I'm bad... hmm

Screw you?

I said a naughty :eek:

[Spit_101]

And i just repped this guy actually. Stupid of me.

First. You sir, are an idiot. Stop pressing that your beleifs that are right and that if people dont beleive they are sinners.

I know your going to argue back against me after reading this but if you get one thing from my post its this.

I don't beleive in a god. I dont try to stop people from beleiveing in a god. Same thing goes for you. You shouldnt make people beleive that your views of god are right. If someone thinks that their tree in their front yard is god. KNOCK YOURSELF OUT. Its not your job to decide for them what they want to beleive.

You just an ignorant kid who hasnt seen what life is like yet.

And just to piss you off. God Damn This Thread.o_O

[Kyir]

#1 prove evolution....you cant

prove god.... you can't


#2 what if you die in a car accident goin somewhere TODAY! you never know....and you never have "plenty of time"
then i'll be dead, whats your point

[endless]

o_O
0WN3D

[deathbydarkness]

And i just repped this guy actually. Stupid of me.

First. You sir, are an idiot. Stop pressing that your beleifs that are right and that if people dont beleive they are sinners.

I know your going to argue back against me after reading this but if you get one thing from my post its this.

I don't beleive in a god. I dont try to stop people from beleiveing in a god. Same thing goes for you. You shouldnt make people beleive that your views of god are right. If someone thinks that their tree in their front yard is god. KNOCK YOURSELF OUT. Its not your job to decide for them what they want to beleive.

You just an ignorant kid who hasnt seen what life is like yet.

im not forcing my religion on anyone just defending it.....

[mushroom_girl]

It isn't. You're not a bad person. But I'm just a Catholic. ;)
I'm a little angel. ;)
The Shroud of Turin.
Ok, please tell me what this is? I quit Sunday School in third grade.
_________________________________________
thats just something we believe is a good thing to do to become closer to GOD......denying GOD does make you a bad person though.....
Hmm, ok. That makes sense. But I could always just pray in my home, that should have the same effect.

I don't deny him, I just don't see evidence. When God shows me that he exists, I'll embrase him happily.

[deathbydarkness]

DBD, your still a noob. A Post Whore, and flat out a retard. Please either post some intelligence, or stop posting.

take your own advice

[Kyir]

So I'm bad... hmm

Screw you?

I said a naughty :eek:

oh... I quoted byself, thats pretty.... uhh, can someone plug a sin into this? kthxbye

[kegsworth]

what are you talking about?

I will not explain it on this thread as it is likely to offend many. Ask your mom or dad and they will be sure to explain it.

[Kyir]

im not forcing my religion on anyone just defending it.....

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

(POST WHORING!!!!?1!)

[deathbydarkness]

Hmm, ok. That makes sense. But I could always just pray in my home, that should have the same effect.

I don't deny him, I just don't see evidence. When God shows me that he exists, I'll embrase him happily.

if you dont see HIM in creation and see HIM in your everyday activitied you have to be denying him

[endless]

I'm a little angel. ;)

pssh who are you kidding


I don't deny him, I just don't see evidence. When God shows me that he exists, I'll embrase him happily.
Same for me. But he says he isnt pressing his religion. I can find a 100 post to prove my point.

[Kyir]

if you dont see HIM in creation and see HIM in your everyday activitied you have to be denying him

I deny that that a allpowerfull being had any part in anything, what do I win?

[mushroom_girl]

#1 prove evolution....you cant
Scientists can. They're working on it, anyway. It just makes more sense to me.

#2 what if you die in a car accident goin somewhere TODAY! you never know....and you never have "plenty of time"
Then it was my time to go, and I'll find out sooner, won't I?

If I ended up being right, wouldn't you feel stupid? That's how I'll feel if you end up being right.

[Hatchet Klown]

I dont post intelligent things? You have 935 posts, and ive been here (on this account) twice as long as you. Most people with 935 posts have alot more than 3 boxes of rep.

This goes to show why rep can sometimes be an accurate reflection of ones actions.

You=Post Whore=Hate=No Rep...

PWNED!

[deathbydarkness]

I dont post intelligent things? You have 935 posts, and ive been here (on this account) twice as long as you. Most people with 935 posts have alot more than 3 boxes of rep.

This goes to show why rep can sometimes be an accurate reflection of ones actions.

You=Post Whore=Hate=No Rep...

PWNED!

me=dont care

[Spit_101]

I'm a little angel. ;)xD

Ok, please tell me what this is? I quit Sunday School in third grade.The cloth Jesus was buried with when he died. When he rose from the dead. A great light came from his body, and formed a photopgraphic image of himself on the cloth. It is still around today, and people have tried to prove it as a fake. Too bad they haven't.

Their first attempt was saying DeVinci painted it. The Picture had way too much detail to be painted/drawn/etc. Carbon testing said it to be around 2000 years old. In Jesus' time.

Back in the 80's scientists made the mistake of false testing on it. After that, the media went crazy.

I don't go to Sunday School. ;)

Hmm, ok. That makes sense. But I could always just pray in my home, that should have the same effect.It doesn't.

[Kyir]

I dont post intelligent things? You have 935 posts, and ive been here (on this account) twice as long as you. Most people with 935 posts have alot more than 3 boxes of rep.

This goes to show why rep can sometimes be an accurate reflection of ones actions.

You=Post Whore=Hate=No Rep...

PWNED!

it's Him=suck=hate=slapping

[mushroom_girl]

pssh who are you kidding
:angel:
Same for me. But he says he isnt pressing his religion. I can find a 100 post to prove my point.
He isn't pressing his religion, really. If he was, I'd feel offended in some way. But I'm not, so he must be doing a pretty crappy job.
_________________________________________
if you dont see HIM in creation and see HIM in your everyday activitied you have to be denying him
No, I'm just noy buying in to all the hype.

And you don't need to capitalise his whole name, just the first letter.

[endless]

He has no rep. b/c everyone has negged him b/c of this dumbass thread.

[deathbydarkness]

Then it was my time to go, and I'll find out sooner, won't I?

If I ended up being right, wouldn't you feel stupid? That's how I'll feel if you end up being right.

and if you had a chance to go to heaven and you went to hell how would you feel?

[Kyir]

me=dont care

heh, DBD put me on his ignore list, I win at life?

[deathbydarkness]

It doesn't.

thats where we differ.....i believe it does.....

He has no rep. b/c everyone has negged him b/c of this dumbass thread.

ive gotten more pos then neg newb....

[Spit_101]

0WN3DRe-read my post. Dumbass.

[mushroom_girl]

The cloth Jesus was buried with when he died. When he rose from the dead. A great light came from his body, and formed a photopgraphic image of himself. It is still around today, and people have tried to prove it as a fake. Too bad they haven't.

Their first attempt was saying DeVinci painted it. The Picture had way too much detail to be painted/drawn/etc.

Back in the 80's scientists made the mistake of false testing on it. After that, the media went crazy.
Hmm, I'll have to research that now. See now I'm interested in all this stuff. Grr....

I don't go to Sunday School. ;)
SINNER!!!! :p

It doesn't.
So if I prayed right now, he wouldn't listen to me because I'm not in a church? That doesn't seem very nice. How picky can you get.

[Kyir]

Re-read my post. Dumbass.

don't be mean to nubz0r's
(yeah, I'm basicly spamming now)

[battle composed]

The shroud of Turin is a woven cloth about 14 feet long and 3.5 feet wide with an image of a man on it. Actually, it has two images, one frontal and one rear, with the heads meeting in the middle. It has been noted that if the shroud were really wrapped over a body there should be a space where the two heads meet. And the head is 5% too large for its body, the nose is disproportionate, and the arms are too long. Nevertheless, the image is believed by many to be a negative image of the crucified Christ and the shroud is believed to be his burial shroud. Most skeptics think the image is a painting and a pious hoax. The shroud is kept in the cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy.

In case you weren't being sarcastic. I ripped this off a search.

One thing makes me eyes pop out, deathbydarkness is 16 years old. I had him pinned at 13-14 all through this thread.

I always thought going to church, temples etc doesn't mean anything. Since god is omnipresent. The buildings are just for people to gather so there is shade, community and a purpose.

[Spit_101]

So if I prayed right now, he wouldn't listen to me because I'm not in a church? That doesn't seem very nice. How picky can you get.No, because you're too lazy to go and worship at a church. And trying to get away with praying at your house. ;)

[Hatchet Klown]

I am a christian myself, but posting this here, and telling people they are "evil" or "bad people" in itself is not a christian way. Simply telling them they should try to find some way that god should be integrated into their lives, and encouraging them (not screaming, yelling, or insulting) would be the correct manner.

So you sir, are WRONG!

[deathbydarkness]

So if I prayed right now, he wouldn't listen to me because I'm not in a church? That doesn't seem very nice. How picky can you get.

false.....if you pray now it has the same effect as anywhere...

[Hatchet Klown]

Id neg you if I could, but ive given out too many negs in the last 24 hours, so ive repped too much... >_<

[Kyir]

One thing makes me eyes pop out, deathbydarkness is 16 years old. I had him pinned at 13-14 all through this thread.


i'm 14, don't be mean

[†Crusader†]

*Sigh* the 1st Ammendment ~ Freedom of Religion

[Kyir]

false.....if you pray now it has the same effect as anywhere...

listen to spit, he's obviously a better person then you ;]

[endless]

wow.....thats bad......GOD GAVE YOU YOUR LIFE! satan has tried to take it from you thats what each of them has done for you.....

Basically saying that there is one god and that his god is right.

that is so ignorant.....so do you want to go to hell?

Again saying that if you dont beleive his beleifs you will go to hell.

GOD RULES!

need i say more?

This kid beleives his religion the the right one. and that everyone should beleive his beleives. If not your going to be sent to hell.

[Spit_101]

false.....if you pray now it has the same effect as anywhere...You always think you're right.

But that statement was wrong.

[deathbydarkness]

I am a christian myself, but posting this here, and telling people they are "evil" or "bad people" in itself is not a christian way. Simply telling them they should try to find some way that god should be integrated into their lives, and encouraging them (not screaming, yelling, or insulting) would be the correct manner.

So you sir, are WRONG!

i never told anyone they were "evil" or yelled at them......and also how are you a christian if you smoke pot prolly drink and cuss alot.....im not saying you cant be but if you are isnt your conscience goin crazy?

[mushroom_girl]

and if you had a chance to go to heaven and you went to hell how would you feel?
Like a dumbass. But hey, it's my choice. I can't blame anyone but myself.

I said it before and I'll say it again, if He exists then God forgives all. That seems alot more like the image of God to me. An all-knowing, all-caring person, doesn't it?
_________________________________
No, because you're too lazy to go and worship at a church. And trying to get away with praying at your house.
Stop being so spit-like. It's making it hard for me to argue with you! :(
__________________________________
I am a christian myself, but posting this here, and telling people they are "evil" or "bad people" in itself is not a christian way.
Hatchet, I totally agree with that. But then again, I'm the evil one.

[deathbydarkness]

You always think you're right.

But that statement was wrong.

whats the difference? my church isnt in right now so if i pray now its the same as if i was in church!

Like a dumbass. But hey, it's my choice. I can't blame anyone but myself.

I said it before and I'll say it again, if He exists then God forgives all. That seems alot more like the image of God to me. An all-knowing, all-caring person, doesn't it?

if you accept it....its not just ok GOD forgives all i dont need to worry about it......YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR IT!

[Spit_101]

whats the difference?There's nothing wrong with praying at home. But trying to stay away from the church purposely is bad.

[deathbydarkness]

There's nothing wrong with praying at home. But trying to stay away from the church purposely is bad.

that is true but prayer has the same weight anywhere....

[endless]

if you accept it....its not just ok GOD forgives all i dont need to worry about it......YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR IT!
Some one want to explain to me why i can't go out and sin all my life than whhen im 70 dontae to a charity or something and ask for gods forgiveness? Why wouldnt that work? There are loop holes! w00t!

[mushroom_girl]

if you accept it....its not just ok GOD forgives all i dont need to worry about it......YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR IT!
So I'll ask for it when I get to the Pearly Gates. Right now, I'm going to enjoy my "ignorance".

Basically, I think that Hell is a place that was made up so that people would follow the 10 Commandments out of fear. I don't think religion should be based on fear.

[deathbydarkness]

Some one want to explain to me why i can't go out and sin all my life than whhen im 70 dontae to a charity or something and ask for gods forgiveness? Why wouldnt that work? There are loop holes! w00t!

you can do that if you want (you dont have to give to a charity that has nothing to do with it) but if you do that what if you die in a car accident at 22? you wont have asked for forgiveness and you go to hell.....so why not do it now? see what CHRIST can do in your life?

[Spit_101]

that is true but prayer has the same weight anywhere....A true holy person wouldn't stay at home and says he prays to make an excuse for it.

[deathbydarkness]

So I'll ask for it when I get to the Pearly Gates. Right now, I'm going to enjoy my "ignorance".

that will be to late you cant ask for it then

A true holy person wouldn't stay at home and says he prays to make an excuse for it.

whats your def of a "true holy person"

[Kyir]

you can do that if you want (you dont have to give to a charity that has nothing to do with it) but if you do that what if you die in a car accident at 22? you wont have asked for forgiveness and you go to hell.....so why not do it now? see what CHRIST can do in your life?

nothing at all?
stop ignoring btw noob, I want someone to argue with

[endless]

you can do that if you want (you dont have to give to a charity that has nothing to do with it) but if you do that what if you die in a car accident at 22? you wont have asked for forgiveness and you go to hell.....so why not do it now? see what CHRIST can do in your life?
Or not....
* pops open a beer * anyone else want one?

[mushroom_girl]

see what CHRIST can do in your life?
No.

My neighbor is a devout Christian and her son died from eating a raw Hamburger at the age of 2. I am an Athiest, yet I lead a fairly good life. I love my life. How is Christ involved in that at all? It makes no sense.

[mushroom_girl]

that will be to late you cant ask for it then
So you've died before and you've witnessed all of this? Whoa.

Spit, just a question. If I was bed-ridden and could not leave the hospital, my prayers wouldn't count because I wasn't at Church? That's not fair at all, since God was the one who dealt me that fate.

[Spit_101]

whats your def of a "true holy person"Someone who participates at church on Sunday's (and any other day). And prays anywhere else.

What liz was saying was: "Can't I just pray at home? Then I'll be accepted anyway!"

No true christian would make that excuse to try to get their way into heaven.

[deathbydarkness]

So you've died before and you've witnessed all of this? Whoa.

no the BIBLE states it......

Someone who participates at church on Sunday's (and any other day). And prays anywhere else.

What liz was saying was: "Can't I just pray at home? Then I'll be accepted anyway!"

No true christian would make that excuse to try to get their way into heaven.

GOING TO CHURCH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOING TO HEAVEN.

Then you just proved you're not a christian.

Man, you are stupid.

where does it say in the BIBLE that church has anything to do with going to heaven?
__________________________________________________ ____________

I am formally resigning from this thread for now. Anyone who has anymore questions can PM me. Other than that i have no more will to argue with you guys if you will not accept Christ in your lives. The Bible says we are to proclaim the Word to all nations of the world. I have proclaimed it and i hope that I have been able to give God a place to plant the seed so to speak so that you have convictions. Please PM me any questions thank you!

~DBD

[Spit_101]

Spit, just a question. If I was bed-ridden and could not leave the hospital, my prayers wouldn't count because I wasn't at Church? That's not fair at all, since God was the one who dealt me that fate.No. At inconviniet times its not a sin if you don't get to a church.

There are thousands of possible things that could prevent you from going to church. You don't sin because they can't let you get to church.

[endless]

* still drinking a beer *

Ahh life... this is better than the soaps on t.v. right now.

[Spit_101]

GOING TO CHURCH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOING TO HEAVEN.Then you just proved you're not a christian.

Man, you are stupid.

[Kyir]

ok, let me say somthing, I just pulled three or four sins out of my hat today, and I still feel damn great.

now please, continue with you're arguments :]

[Spit_101]

This is boring. I'm going out to lunch with my girlfriend. Later all.

[Kyir]

bye noob :p

[mushroom_girl]

I'll say it again: The Bible is meaningless to me. If your only defense is that then you are proving nothing to me.

deathbydarkness, I can't help it if you just follow what everyone always tells you to. I was trying to understand you better, but apparently that didn't work out. Out of all of this, Spit made the most sense even though I don't believe the same thing. At least he has some brain power.

Next time you are going to argue about religion, make sure you have a legitimate thing to argue with. Not just "THE BIBLE IS HOLY! YOU SUCK AND GOD ROXKS!"

[battle composed]

i'm 14, don't be mean

It's not my fault those are part of the dark ages. Don't be sad. Post less so people won't notice it. :p

Mushroom made a valid point about how deathbydarkness is defending his religion, although the thread didn't start out to be doing that. It was a quote-your-fav-line-from-the-bible thread.

I guess we can't predict how things will be, I suggest to let things be as they are.

[Kyir]

It's not my fault those are part of the dark ages. Don't be sad. Post less so people won't notice it. :p

Mushroom made a valid point about how deathbydarkness is defending his religion, although the thread didn't start out to be doing that. It was a quote-your-fav-line-from-the-bible thread.

I guess we can't predict how things will be, I suggest to let things be as they are.

you're just jealous of my 5k+ posts

[choplocker-17]

Ok what I realize is this, if you dont believe in christianity thats ok, but us christians that are on this game can post here, if your not, u dont need to come in here and say, O christians are dumb and blah blah. Just let us talk about how god and jesus and the holy spirit has done amazing things for us. thanks u

[mushroom_girl]

u dont need to come in here and say, O christians are dumb and blah blah.
I never said that. No one did.

I was trying to dig into that "16-year-old"'s mind and see what was going on. See if maybe I could be swayed into believing. No luck yet.

[drakonfire]

So you've died before and you've witnessed all of this? Whoa.

Spit, just a question. If I was bed-ridden and could not leave the hospital, my prayers wouldn't count because I wasn't at Church? That's not fair at all, since God was the one who dealt me that fate.


hey shroom, i was gonna stay out of the arguing in this thread, but as you seem genuinely curious and not rearin' for a fight i'll give a bit of an explanation a go, see if i can't satisfy a bit of your curiosity

first off, your last sentence shows that your basic understanding of God (the christian God... i'm coming from protestant-ism here, keep in mind) is misconcieved, this is an issue a lot of people face, let me throw out a basic tenant of the christian faith as i understand it

(first some background, i am 18, i've grown up in the church, and am currently studying to be a children's pastor)

What God is -NOT-:
God is not an omni-present constantly judging entity that says "i feel malevent today, i want to cripple this person because they swore yesterday *BAM!*"

What God -IS-:
God is a loving, caring creator

most commonly asked question:
Why then is there suffering in the world?

short answer? we made it that way - yes, WE made it that way

Long answer (and i mean LONG)
in Genesis, the Bible recounts the story of creation and an event we refer to as 'The Fall'

in the beginning, when God created everything, it was all perfect, the Garden of Eden, with everything Adam and Eve and the animals would ever need to survive, in this garden however, God placed a tree, the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, and His only command at the time (about what NOT to do) was to NOT eat from that tree; however! listen to this next part. He gave them (adam and eve, and us for that matter) free will, the choice to obey His command or not. we didn't, thus sin entered the world <--- The Fall

now become of this, death also entered into the world, and not just "he's not breathing Jim!" kinda death, soul death, God had laid out rules, to be with Him, in holy communion, person to God, you had to be perfect, unfortunately, after adam and eve ate the fruit (not an apple) man became incapable of becoming perfect. eventually the blood sacrifices were introduced as a way to atone for a man's (or woman's, lets not be picky here please) sins, now God would still talk with us (witness the commandments, Gideon, etc.) and send messangers to men, but we could not be with him unless the price for our sin was paid, (the blood sacrifice) eventually God even chose a special people to be His (the Isrealites) - you see, God wanted to be in communion with the people He had created, but we broke the rules, and the rules must be appeased (why? well, thats a deep theological question, i'm just trying to give you a broad overview of why we believe what we believe, as i understand it) - eventually though, the people He had selected turned from Him (rejection, not once, but twice!) and the the laws He had set forth became a religious system, a system that was broke, sure, it functioned, but it was kinda like putting a band aid on a sever artery, it will only work for so long or so well. so God made a way to get around the brokeness of man, permenantly, He became a man, wholly man, but wholly God (doctrine of the Trinity, again, deep theological question) in the form of His son, Jesus, now Jesus DID live a perfect life, free from sin of any kind, thus when He _willingly_ died on the cross, innocent of any crime, yet willing to die for the guilty anyway, the barrier between us and God, that we had placed there, was ripped apart, and we are free to live our lives, in the best way we know how, to please Him (or not, its your choice) and no matter what sin we commit (because no man, other than Jesus, is without sin) we are free to claim the blood of Jesus, the ultimate blood sacrifice, and appear to God without sin, our debt of death fully paid

now that really didn't answer why is there still suffering in the world, here ya go, as i see it: God is a gentlemen, He won't force on us what we don't want to accept "why not?" you ask, well let me pose a question for you to think on, if you had control of a person, absolute control, right down to their breathing, and you made them tell you how wonderful, how beautiful, how amazing you were, all day long, everyday, would that really be worth it? isn't it so much better when a person, a nuetral observer, comes to like you for your actions, your attitudes, and your attributes? its the same way with God, He created us, to have a relationship with us, a 2 way street, not 1, 2, us and Him, the world will never be as it was, because there is still sin in the world, not until He comes again at the end of the ages will it ever be perfect again, so until then, we have to live in the mess we made, its your choice whether or not to accept His love an generosity, but before death, not after

the choice is yours though, He forces nothing on no one, but as for me an my house, we will serve the Lord, because He has shown us such love, that is all i can think to do for Him in return


EDIT: and in answer to your original question posed to Spit, no your prayers to not count for less just because you are not at a church, our body is the church, the buildings we congregate in are merely that, buildings, meant to come together in fellowship, to encourage one another (though we often times fail at that, sadly) and worship God together

[Anarchy_United]

The whole Idea of a Christain only thread is just stupid. Its saying, "We would really like it if you could just let us ignore the fact god isn't real, and please don't barge in and mess up are perfect ignorant existance"

Also, Aitheist talk in other religons because they can't have a thread, they can only argue with other religons, they cannot exist without religons to disprove.

[deathbydarkness]

Ok what I realize is this, if you dont believe in christianity thats ok, but us christians that are on this game can post here, if your not, u dont need to come in here and say, O christians are dumb and blah blah. Just let us talk about how god and jesus and the holy spirit has done amazing things for us. thanks u

yes please keep this chrstion fellowship not depate team!

[Warcow]

yes please keep this chrstion fellowship not depate team!

Then out of mutual respect, you should have to keep any talk of your religion out of other threads that aren't about christianity; fair?

[deathbydarkness]

um sure.....

[max2k106]

Criss cross . . .

I have a really nice cross from when I was baptised. It's a shame I don't wear it. It really is a nice piece of work. Only for ornamentation of course :)

[deathbydarkness]

what does that have to do with christianity? anyway back on topic...

My brother was in an accident almost a year ago that in which the car flipped over 3 times and his fiance was ejected from the car over 20 ft into the woods and he stayed in the car.....all the doctors said they should be dead but they WALKED away with just scratches! I praise the LORD for this because it was truly a miracle and i dont know where i would be without my bro!

[dominion138]

what does that have to do with christianity? anyway back on topic...

My brother was in an accident almost a year ago that in which the car flipped over 3 times and his fiance was ejected from the car over 20 ft into the woods and he stayed in the car.....all the doctors said they should be dead but they WALKED away with just scratches! I praise the LORD for this because it was truly a miracle and i dont know where i would be without my bro!

drunk people often walk away from accidents such as this...

you should be thanking god they didn't kill anyone :dry:

[deathbydarkness]

drunk people often walk away from accidents such as this...

you should be thanking god they didn't kill anyone :dry:

me and none of my family drink

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Okay. I saw the first page of this thread. The only thing I can see wrong with it is that deathbydarkness started it and is commiting acts of jackassery.

I was a Christian once. Yes, I was raised as one for about eight years of my life. I went to an Episcopalian school, sang hymns praising Jesus and whatnot, and even the boring as mud Eucharist. But then I converted to Judaism for a few reasons. One was because I discovered that way back when, my family actually was and still should be Jewish. Another was that I felt my soul and mind were tuned more towards Judaism than Christianity. I've scoped out my own view of God. I don't honestly seen why there is such a grudge between Jews and Christians today. People seem to ignore one simple fact:

Christianity (at least Catholocism) and Judaism are 98% the same religion, ethically. That's mainly due to the fact that Jesus was a Rabbi.There's that little bit about pork and other things, but it's mainly unimportant.

Now I don't see why there should be a Christian thread, a Jewish thread, a Muslim thread, a Buddhist thread, a Hindu thread or any religious thread. It will most likely end up in arguments claiming that one side is ignorant of God and the other side is just plain ignorant (and I can see it developing). Even between members of the same religion there will most likely be struggle. This is because the people who are in a religion each interpret their teachings in a different way. It's not their fault, it's merely how they respond to stimuli.

Religion (both different and the same) is a touchy subject, regardless of who you talk to. Unless it is handled in the appropriate manner (as with FinalFantasyt and myself) it will wreak havoc and discord.

And DBD, on the very first page of this thread, you asked for proof of other religions' validity.
i would say prove it to me.....unless you can prove me wrong i will believe in THE LORD MY GOD!
But the thing about religion is that you don't get proof. That's the whole deal with faith. Also, don't flip ape shit at people for not remembering one teeny-tiny part of a sentence in the Bible or for having a different interpretation of one. It doesn't give you credibility.

[endless]

0wn3d

[Jehutyv.2.0]

me and none of my family drink
That sentence, though grammatically incorrect, would indicate that you drink but none of your family does.

What you want is "No one in my family drinks, including myself" though I don't really see how you could not include yourself in your own family.

[Lonely Tylenol]

A few days late, but... My rebuttal.

On prayer:
This one's simple. Prayer shouldn't have to be in a house of prayer, or even visual displays. Prayer is a call to God for His blessings, not an act that defines faith, so technically keeping God in your heart should be enough, correct?

On Bibal literalism:
The Bible is not perfect, inerrant, timeless, or anything along these lines. Even if you believe it to be the literal word of God, it is as interpreted by man, which means it is based on how man interpreted God's will and is thus as inherently flawed as any other text written by man, be it a holy scripture or not.

Bible literalism is just that--accepting everything said in the Bible as inherent and all-encompassing truth. However, there is some stuff in the Bible that is not only imperfect, but shouldn't be perfect. Take Exhibit A, Lev. 20-13:

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Essentially, this is stating that since the Bible says that anyone committing an act of homosexuality is to be killed for their transgressions, and their blood shall be set apon them. If you haven't killed a homosexual in your community, you're not taking the Bible literally enough.

The Bible also promotes animal sacrifice (Most of Lev. 8 and 9) and slavery (although there are rules for how you may come apon said slaves), which are both decidedly wrong. How can God, whose word is inerrant and eternal, condone such a thing as slavery? What's more, if he is inerrant and eternal, as is the Bible, why should we consider it to be wrong?

If any of my premises are correct (not all, just any one), then there is something wrong with this picture. Either the authors of the Bible were wrong or God himself was wrong to condone slavery, or slavery isn't wrong to begin with.

On religious affiliation:
Once again, not something that can be accurately determined by man. The only well-founded argument I can make in this sense is that man, being inherently fallible and lacking greater knowledge, cannot either prove or disprove the existence of God, nor can we know of His existence. Those who "know" God exists are expressing their perception of reality as driven by their faith. This goes for every faith, as well as the lack thereof. The only truly realistic course of action is to express ignorance, as the only greater truth in the way of humans and God is that we will never know in this life.

The only times at which we will truly know that God exists are as follows:
- The end of days
- Death

And if God doesn't exist, then we won't know. Ever.

Debate on whether or not there is a Supreme Being is all in all irrelevant. There's a very fitting poem for this predicament known as The Blind Men & the Elephant. I'm not sure that this was the initial purpose of this poem, but it certainly fits the bill.

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind).
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho! what have we here
so very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What this most wondrous beast is like
Is might plain," quoth he;
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong!

The poem, by the way, was written by John Godfrey Saxe.

-------------------

Since this is a rebuttal, I won't touch on opinion-based pieces such as evolution, creation, and other religious matters that involve taking a side, but for opinions I will say this:

On actions in life:
I believe that if a God exists, actions in life should account for more of what you are judged by than your belief yourself. Whether or not you have faith (or what faith in particular that you believe in) should not take the highest and overruling precedent on whether or not you get to Heaven... Say, for instance, God only as interpreted by Christianity is the correct God. That would mean that great people such as Clarence Darrow, the 20th century lawyer who, in the famous Scopes trial (also known as the Monkey trial) helped overturn a law forbidding the teaching of evolution, who expressed no belief in a Supreme Being, and Mahatma Ghandi, an leader of the Satyagraha (truth-force) movement that won India independence from the British Empire, major proponent of non-violent resistance, a man of the cloth and higher religious principles and (here's the twist) a devout Hindu, would be sent to Hell for their defiance of the Lord God, despite their actions in life (which, especially in the case of Mahatma Ghandi, were great. I would argue the same of Clarence Darrow, but my opinions are very biased on the matter). I don't know about you, but if a God exists that would punish Mahatma for his convictions, I wouldn't accept him as my Lord anyway!

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Oh my. I have just read a few pages back, around when Liz joined the fray. I must say, you have all argued valiantly and masterfully, especially Liz! You, my dear girl, have battled on this thread as though you were a veritable Amazoness warrior on the virtual plane, swininging your blade of wit and crushing all those before you! You have my highest praise for that!

Your theory on the acceptance to heaven... Brilliant! I had actually thought of it myself a while back, but you seemed to pull it from the same metaphorical well I did, or else great minds think alike! You have impressed me beyond anything I have ever seen before on this thread. Liz, for this fight, you are a hero in my eyes. I am honored to be a friend of yours, a person in this community to be respected. Mere words on a screen cannot convey the amazement and pride I feel for you at this moment. Sheer excellence.

Congratulations, Liz. You've won about five internets for this. May your triumphs be everlasting.

Thank you.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Woah. The comp is so laggy, it actually posted it twice. Hmm... I guess I'll just add something here....

Deathbydarkness, you are a disgrace to all Christians everywhere. Please abandon your faith as not to tarnish the name of Jesus.

[Warcow]

Oh my. I have just read a few pages back, around when Liz joined the fray. I must say, you have all argued valiantly and masterfully, especially Liz! You, my dear girl, have battled on this thread as though you were a veritable Amazoness warrior on the virtual plane, swininging your blade of wit and crushing all those before you! You have my highest praise for that!

Your theory on the acceptance to heaven... Brilliant! I had actually thought of it myself a while back, but you seemed to pull it from the same metaphorical well I did, or else great minds think alike! You have impressed me beyond anything I have ever seen before on this thread. Liz, for this fight, you are a hero in my eyes. I am honored to be a friend of yours, a person in this community to be respected. Mere words on a screen cannot convey the amazement and pride I feel for you at this moment. Sheer excellence.

Congratulations, Liz. You've won about five internets for this. May your triumphs be everlasting.

Thank you.

You might as well just say it Jehut,

You want to jump her bones ;)

[Jehutyv.2.0]

You might as well just say it Jehut,

You want to jump her bones ;)
Actually.... that was what I was trying to avoid. My intent was praise in a completely friendly, platonic way. Oh dear. I seem to have a habit of sounding more nice than I ought to.

But truly, her performance here is something of the stuff of legendary pwnings.

It reminded me of myself and dirka dirka at some points, except that their topic wasn't some pointless, random thing and her opponent was much stupider.

[deathbydarkness]

Deathbydarkness, you are a disgrace to all Christians everywhere. Please abandon your faith as not to tarnish the name of Jesus.

I am not trying to thrust my religion on anyone else i am simply defending my religion. This thread was originally intended to be a christian fellowship thread not a debate one. So i would say that it is actually you guys that have come in here and tried to force your religions on me. Anyway that is beside the point. My point is that i am no better than any of you or vise versa. We are all the same in the eyes of the LORD. The ONLY difference between you and me is that i have chosen to follow the LORD in my life. He has that same offer for you it is just up to you to chose to take it and run with it. I have done that and it is simply your desicion to do so or not. I am not in any way trying to force this on you. Please dont think that. I am simply trying to defend my faith and also provide light upon it for all of you. If you have any disagreements please feel free to post them but please i do sincerely ask you not to use profanity because there is not point in it. It does not get your point across any better than if you were not to use it and i do not like to read it so please refrain from that and secondly dont flame others. Different people have different beliefs so that is how we all differ. You may ask questions about other beliefs and others but please do not flame them about it. Again i do appologize if anyone felt as though i was trying to force my religion on you because that was truly not my intent in this. I am sorry and i do apologize. Please post below and always remember to have FUN!

[mushroom_girl]

What God is -NOT-:
God is not an omni-present constantly judging entity that says "i feel malevent today, i want to cripple this person because they swore yesterday *BAM!*"
Good point. I didn't mean to make him seem like a spiteful kid taking his anger out on others. :)
What God -IS-:
God is a loving, caring creator
I understand that though. That's what I was saying. Why would he not forgive me for not believing? Would he really be angry at me because I was "misguided"?

most commonly asked question:
Why then is there suffering in the world?

short answer? we made it that way - yes, WE made it that way
Out of free will, correct? Just like Adam and Eve had the choice to eat from the tree or not.

now become of this, death also entered into the world, and not just "he's not breathing Jim!" kinda death, soul death, God had laid out rules, to be with Him, in holy communion, person to God, you had to be perfect, unfortunately, after adam and eve ate the fruit (not an apple) man became incapable of becoming perfect.
So basically, this is where heaven and hell come into play. Correct?

so God made a way to get around the brokeness of man, permenantly, He became a man, wholly man, but wholly God (doctrine of the Trinity, again, deep theological question) in the form of His son, Jesus, now Jesus DID live a perfect life, free from sin of any kind, thus when He _willingly_ died on the cross, innocent of any crime, yet willing to die for the guilty anyway, the barrier between us and God, that we had placed there, was ripped apart, and we are free to live our lives, in the best way we know how, to please Him (or not, its your choice) and no matter what sin we commit (because no man, other than Jesus, is without sin) we are free to claim the blood of Jesus, the ultimate blood sacrifice, and appear to God without sin, our debt of death fully paid
So are you saying that I will be accepted by him whether I believe in Him or not? Well then what is the point of Hell, besides being metephorical as I see it. Something to keep us all in line so we don't go crazy on eachother?

God is a gentlemen, He won't force on us what we don't want to accept "why not?" you ask, well let me pose a question for you to think on, if you had control of a person, absolute control, right down to their breathing, and you made them tell you how wonderful, how beautiful, how amazing you were, all day long, everyday, would that really be worth it? isn't it so much better when a person, a nuetral observer, comes to like you for your actions, your attitudes, and your attributes?
I had thought about this, actually. And that makes perfect sense. However, I am not swayed to believe that there is one holy being up there watching us all. I prefer to think of God as a metephorical being used for guidance and strength instead of an all-knowing entitiy.

He comes again at the end of the ages will it ever be perfect again, so until then, we have to live in the mess we made, its your choice whether or not to accept His love an generosity, but before death, not after
So I will have sinned if I do not believe in Him? Even if I have never killed, never stole, never hurt intentionally? That doesn't seem very fair. If a man believed in God, yet he murdered his wife for having an affair, he would be a better person than me?

the choice is yours though, He forces nothing on no one, but as for me an my house, we will serve the Lord, because He has shown us such love, that is all i can think to do for Him in return
That sounds like a real Christian answer. My mother and grandmother are Christians, and they have the same attitude. They aren't as educated in the way that you are, but they have the same reasons for believing as you do.

and in answer to your original question posed to Spit, no your prayers to not count for less just because you are not at a church, our body is the church, the buildings we congregate in are merely that, buildings, meant to come together in fellowship, to encourage one another (though we often times fail at that, sadly) and worship God together
Ok, that makes much more sense then "oh you're just too lazy." ;)

Thanks for taking the time out to explain things. The truth is, I'm very interested in religions. I just choose to stay out of them until I understand them all better and make my own theories. :)

[mushroom_girl]

My point is that i am no better than any of you or vise versa. We are all the same in the eyes of the LORD.
I don't believe that's what you were saying before. I believe you were saying that I was an uber-sinner because I am Athiest. But hey, whatever.
I am simply trying to defend my faith and also provide light upon it for all of you.
Maybe you should take some lessons from drakonfire. Not once did you provide me with an answer like that, which would have made me very happy.

Just so you know, I didn't think you were imposing your religion on anyone. I just thought you weren't making any sense.
Please post below and always remember to have FUN!
Oh trust me, I am. :)
____________________________________________

You might as well just say it Jehut,

You want to jump her bones
Nah, Jeh's just a suck-up. ;)

[Jehutyv.2.0]

I don't believe that's what you were saying before. I believe you were saying that I was an uber-sinner because I am Athiest. But hey, whatever.

Maybe you should take some lessons from drakonfire. Not once did you provide me with an answer like that, which would have made me very happy.

Just so you know, I didn't think you were imposing your religion on anyone. I just thought you weren't making any sense.

Oh trust me, I am. :)
____________________________________________


Nah, Jeh's just a suck-up. ;)
Now now, you'd know for sure if I was sucking up. I was genuinely impressed with your feats of wit here. That is all.

But hey, I didn't think he was imposing his religion either. I thought he was being a jackass. I guess I was right.

[h()()t]

Cuss we dont want any towel heads talking bout fake Gods in here!!


Tell me please, Does a single person have a problem with this?? I live in the USA and I will call thoughs f***ers over in the desert slump of nothingness towelheads that belive in false Gods any time I want to...anyone that agrees with me please tell me cuss i just wanna make shure that it is ok to express the fact that thoughs f***ers killed thousands of inocent people, many of witch my best freind was cloes to including his mom!!!! Now dumbass Jehutyv.2.0 just negged me for that post and I think he needs to be set straight, this is America, and I know for a fact many people here live in America and will agree with me so yea just thought I would post that!! Anyway not to change the topic of this thread,

I just got re-saved...over new years eve and my gf did it to, and let me tell you if felt great to get everything off my chest, I had grow so far away from God and it was just amazing! So yea God is amazing and is the only God out there for all your idots that belive in the sun and other things :dry: go get saved right now and you will not regret it! People may make fun of you, but think of it this way, when there burning in hell and your lapghing your butt of at them in the most confertble bed ever they will be sorry! Well yea just my two cents.

O yea and how is my post againts the TOS?? All I was doing was speaking my thoughts! Just woundering. Jehutyv.2.0 go ahead and neg me cuss of your neg you gave me earlyer sounds like you yourself are a towel head that belives in false Gods, my advice to you, move to the U.S.A, take the towel off, shave and accept God, you will feel so much better it is un explainable!! (wow I know there is a word for people that belive in false Gods but I can't think of it now)

GOD IS AMAZING EVERYONE

[mushroom_girl]

I just got re-saved...over new years eve and my gf did it to, and let me tell you if felt great to get everything off my chest, I had grow so far away from God and it was just amazing! So yea God is amazing and is the only God out there for all your idots that belive in the sun and other things :dry: go get saved right now and you will not regret it! People may make fun of you, but think of it this way, when there burning in hell and your lapghing your butt of at them in the most confertble bed ever they will be sorry! Well yea just my two cents.

my advice to you, move to the U.S.A, take the towel off, shave and accept God, you will feel so much better it is un explainable!!
Please tell me you're joking.

[h()()t]

Edit: I really dont cvare if everyone hates me...if it was up to me I would be over there fighting myself...I think it is one of the most rediculess things to do what they did to us! Yes i understand what they do and how they live is there way...but they have been FORCED to live that way there entire life...my advice move to America and become Christian, be a catholic, be anything that involves God and you will be happer than you ever were. Honestly I don't know who or what they worship in iraq but im shure it isnt God, correct me if im wrong!

Edit: lets get back on track and talk about God!! Cuss he is all that matters!

[mushroom_girl]

my advice move to America and become Christian, be a catholic, be anything that involves God and you will be happer than you ever were. Honestly I don't know who or what they worship in iraq but im shure it isnt God, correct me if im wrong!
You are so wrong.

Over in Iraq, they have Muslims and "Muslims" (as the majority, from what I understand). The true Muslims do believe in God, along with peace and all that good stuff that Christians do. "Muslims" are the terrorists who decide to hide behind the excuse of religion. True Muslims have their own God, they don't need the same one that you believe in to make them good people. Fake Muslims are the ones that you are thinking of. Do not group them together.

If you are going to be racist, read the manual first before you look like a total jerk. Hopefully you're being sarcastic, or you're a real moron.

[h()()t]

Well, then I am talking about the fake ones...

[Warcow]

You're a frigging tool hoot, you're going to get banned and I'm going to laugh my ass off.

[h()()t]

Wow thanks warcow...never knew that expressing my thoughts was aginst the TOS...maby im wrong but maby just maby if I remeber right, i do have the ability to do that...im not doing anything wrong so ya...why dont "you" piss off!

[Warcow]

Spouting racist ignorant garbage is 100% against the TOS. I can point out where too if you like. If you don't get banned for this, the mods we have aren't worth their salt, but they are so bye-bye :)

[h()()t]

...Lets see me get banned for saying somthing bad aginst people that have killed thousands of incocent people, lets see me get banned for saying somthing bad about a contry that has been fighting a war with themselfs since Christ died! Lets see me get banned!! Cuss if I do, I guess somthing is really wrong with standing up for the country you live in!

Edit: i just posed you...that was sposed to be a neg so yea!! just cicked before I switched it...

[The Big Kahuna]

Wow! This thread has really fueled some controversy! But I must admit that I have been intrigued as many have by the wit and candor of the comments by mushroom girl not because I agree with all or anything she said but because she embodies the crux of those who are seeking the truth.

I believe that most come at this all wrong because of their views and opinions of God. They choose to make themselves a God of their own liking and confine God by saying if he were God he would be like this or he wouldn't allow that. So they form in their minds a God of their own chosing and do things that are "right in their own eyes". Or they choose to ignore him altogether and make claims that God does not exist? Because to admit that there is a God is then to raise the question, so what do I do about that?

Who can fanthom the depths and knowledge of God? Because his ways are far beyond our comprehension and his ways are not our ways nor his thoughts our thoughts. And if you believe as I do that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and that he is the Master of the Universe then it's not difficult to begin to understand what he is all about.

I have chosen to believe in God because nature and the very universe declare his existence. I was born and raised in Hawaii and it wasn't difficult for me to see his beauty manifested there. I thank God for all he has done and for his grace in my life. To God be the glory.

[Kyir]

I don't believe that's what you were saying before. I believe you were saying that I was an uber-sinner because I am Athiest. But hey, whatever.

he was, but who cares?

Maybe you should take some lessons from drakonfire. Not once did you provide me with an answer like that, which would have made me very happy.

yes


Oh trust me, I am. :)


who isn't? :P

(more post whoring... not argumenting at all >_>)

[Kyir]

...Lets see me get banned for saying somthing bad aginst people that have killed thousands of incocent people

you were also generalising (sp?) and being stereiotypical(Sp? again)

or I might be worng ;]

[Spit_101]

But God created man, therefore God created profanity.Wrong. God created man in an image of himself. But he could not make them perfect like him or they would be gods too. People are imperfect, and have created profanity.

I agree with drakon's post. I'm sick of Christian threads...

Why is Christianity the only religion bashed?

[Kyir]

because some people try to push it on others on forums... or talk about it in the wrong places on forums in some peoples opinion, ask BDB 'bout that

[deleryn]

I've been out of this thread for a while, but I already responded to arguments like some of these earlier in the thread.

And people bash Christianity because it makes some very offensive claims. If there is an all-powerful being, who would want to hear that it finds you insufficient somehow? Nobody likes hearing that they're going to Hell, even if it is only eternal separation from God. Christians need to be careful how they go about defending the faith.

[Match Strike]

Why is Christianity the only religion bashed?
It's not. However it is by far the most prevelant religion in the western world, therefore it recieves the most attention, both good and bad.

[I BEAT MATHEWS]

It's not. However it is by far the most prevelant religion in the western world, therefore it recieves the most attention, both good and bad.

But what about the Jainists? We deserve some credit, I mean tons of people are Jainist ;)

[endless]

For all of you who beleive in christ:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1967413,00.html

[h()()t]

you were also generalising (sp?) and being stereiotypical(Sp? again)

or I might be worng ;]


About what? What they did was wrong! And untell I see them do somthing right...and that shure hasnt happend I dont plan on changing my view point!! They gave me the view on them that I have...im sorry for all of the people that are stright and still muslium...but your fellow muslims ruined your rep...porlly for the rest of my life!

Endless...you can die if you are trying to say that God isnt real!

[Chaos Theory]

Wrong. God created man in an image of himself. But he could not make them perfect like him or they would be gods too. People are imperfect, and have created profanity.

I agree with drakon's post. I'm sick of Christian threads...

Why is Christianity the only religion bashed?

lol what?! He couldnt make them perfect because mankind decided to sin out of their own free will. when adam and eve were created from the bone of another, God told them that they could do whatever they wanted, just dont eat from the fruit tree. (generalising) Eve was the one to disobey, and eve was the one to lead man into temptation...im getting off subject. Christianity isnt the only religion that is "bashed", it may be more common to hear of christianity being picked on, but thats because it is a popular religion. I think it is Bhuddism that is the fastest grwoing religion out there, but its not too often that you hear that being spoken of...i got to go, my friggin' parents...

[serg]

h()()t, rest in peace.

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Tell me please, Does a single person have a problem with this?? I live in the USA and I will call thoughs f***ers over in the desert slump of nothingness towelheads that belive in false Gods any time I want to...anyone that agrees with me please tell me cuss i just wanna make shure that it is ok to express the fact that thoughs f***ers killed thousands of inocent people, many of witch my best freind was cloes to including his mom!!!! Now dumbass Jehutyv.2.0 just negged me for that post and I think he needs to be set straight, this is America, and I know for a fact many people here live in America and will agree with me so yea just thought I would post that!! Anyway not to change the topic of this thread,

I just got re-saved...over new years eve and my gf did it to, and let me tell you if felt great to get everything off my chest, I had grow so far away from God and it was just amazing! So yea God is amazing and is the only God out there for all your idots that belive in the sun and other things :dry: go get saved right now and you will not regret it! People may make fun of you, but think of it this way, when there burning in hell and your lapghing your butt of at them in the most confertble bed ever they will be sorry! Well yea just my two cents.

O yea and how is my post againts the TOS?? All I was doing was speaking my thoughts! Just woundering. Jehutyv.2.0 go ahead and neg me cuss of your neg you gave me earlyer sounds like you yourself are a towel head that belives in false Gods, my advice to you, move to the U.S.A, take the towel off, shave and accept God, you will feel so much better it is un explainable!! (wow I know there is a word for people that belive in false Gods but I can't think of it now)

GOD IS AMAZING EVERYONE
Hey, asshole. Your post was against the TOS, regardless of whether you were giving vocal shape to those useless, idiotic brainwaves you call thoughts. I am not a Muslism, or a Hindu, or any other religion that utilizes the wearing of a turban. I am a Jew, as you should have seen before by my previous posts. But I forgot. You don't think before you type. Hell, you don't think period. And go ahead and say that I am wrong. Because if you think the Jews are wrong, then your good buddy Jesus is wrong too, seeing as he was a Rabbi. You honestly sound like those guys who make fun of religious rednecks, except you aren't joking. They do not believe in false gods at all. They believe in one God, who is the same God that Abraham and Moses knew.

Did you know that some Catholics have beards? Oh yes, great, long beards. It's because all men who have testosterone and are not bald grow hair from their face at a certain age. You are seriously one of the biggest idiots I have ever known. Go crucify yourself so you can feel what it's like to have been Jesus. I'm sure that will make it better, won't it? Actually, go out into the vacuum of space. Oops, I mean, go out into God. Just throw yourself outside of the atmosphere. I'm sure it will be warm.

Also, thanks for responding to a neg with a neg. Have a fun banning.

[-57-]

I have been wondering what happened with his ban :huh:... *goes to post in ban thread*

[Warcow]

h()()t, rest in peace.

Thank you!!!!

[Jehutyv.2.0]

Why is Christianity the only religion bashed?
Are you joking? Please say you're joking.

[drakonfire]

Good point. I didn't mean to make him seem like a spiteful kid taking his anger out on others. :)

didn't think you did, it was just something i couldn't leave unanswerd, yano?

I understand that though. That's what I was saying. Why would he not forgive me for not believing? Would he really be angry at me because I was "misguided"?

well see here, you pose an interesting question, God wants to be in fellowship with us, but He wants it to start here, so if knowing this, but not accepting it, aren't you in essence rejecting Him and the salvation He offers? -- thats just something even i grapple with on a constant basis, due to my own minds musings

He will and does forgive unbelief, if you come to believe in this life, but do you really think you'll have time to come to a true belief, not just a "i wanna save my rear end" belief in between the time you die and the time you end up in heaven/hell? (speaking here that heaven and hell are accpeted realities)


Out of free will, correct? Just like Adam and Eve had the choice to eat from the tree or not.


So basically, this is where heaven and hell come into play. Correct?


yes - personally i think heaven and hell had always been there, heaven is the place that those who accept God go to, and hell is the place that those who have intentionally separated themselves from Him go (before humans, fallen angels) because those are the only two options, heaven = eternally in the presence of God, hell = only way to get away from Him, a permanent form of the way you (not you personally, just speaking in general here) have lived your life -- again, this is how i understand it and the personal conclusions i have come to


So are you saying that I will be accepted by him whether I believe in Him or not? Well then what is the point of Hell, besides being metephorical as I see it. Something to keep us all in line so we don't go crazy on eachother?

hmmm... not what i meant to get across, you have to claim the blood of Christ, and once you do that here on earth, in my mind (intelectually speaking here) you really have no choice but to shape up your life, i mean, what is the point of claiming redeeming blood if your not gonna change your life so that you have to claim more and more of that blood, if all you do is say "God please forgive me by the Blood of Your Son" so that you can go out and have sex, lie, cheat and steal again tomorrow (again, not you personally, just an example) is it a real confession and repentance?


re·pen·tance Audio pronunciation of "repentance" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pntns)
n.

1. The act or process of repenting.
2. Remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin. See Synonyms at penitence.



I had thought about this, actually. And that makes perfect sense. However, I am not swayed to believe that there is one holy being up there watching us all. I prefer to think of God as a metephorical being used for guidance and strength instead of an all-knowing entitiy.


thats your preference, but i'm glad that thought made sense, i often wondered if it was just a me thing or what


So I will have sinned if I do not believe in Him? Even if I have never killed, never stole, never hurt intentionally? That doesn't seem very fair. If a man believed in God, yet he murdered his wife for having an affair, he would be a better person than me?

not at all, but when judgement came, if that man had truly repented of killing his wife (and anyone who does that probably has their own personal form of hell inside themselves until they die) that man would be able to step forward and say "Father, i claim the blood of Your Son to cover my acts of wickedness" whereas if you hadn't accepted Jesus you could only step forward and say "I couldn't accept it God, it just didn't make sense"


That sounds like a real Christian answer. My mother and grandmother are Christians, and they have the same attitude. They aren't as educated in the way that you are, but they have the same reasons for believing as you do.

thanks, its nice to know i'm growing up spiritually


Ok, that makes much more sense then "oh you're just too lazy." ;)

Thanks for taking the time out to explain things. The truth is, I'm very interested in religions. I just choose to stay out of them until I understand them all better and make my own theories. :)

your welcome, and i hope i have approached this response in the same many as the last, my objective is not to offend or shame you into something, or to argue, just to present things as i see them

thank you for being open minded enough to ask intelligent questions and not just flare up at the mention of religion and a "set of rules to live your life by"


one more note, just as a kinda my 2 cents deal, i keep seeing a lot of "this just doesn't make sense to me" or "i think that if..." i'd like to kindly remind everyone that God is beyond our very comprehension, He doesn't fit inside our little cognitive matrices, it just doesn't work, thats why the word 'faith' means what it means :)

EDIT: Why is Christianity the only religion bashed?

i actually learned some interesting stats in my intro to missions class yesterday, %10 of the world is christian, another %25 though claim to be, but when you get right down to it, aren't - think about that, one out of every 4 people (statistically) is a walking hypocrite proclaiming something in public but in your backyard doing something very different, i'd say its rather easy to see why christianity is such an easy target, eh? those of us who are those 1 out of every 10 get to foot the bill though *shrugs* eh, thats the world, only thing we can do about it is try to make that ratio a bit better

[Office_Shredder]

He will and does forgive unbelief, if you come to believe in this life, but do you really think you'll have time to come to a true belief, not just a "i wanna save my rear end" belief in between the time you die and the time you end up in heaven/hell? (speaking here that heaven and hell are accpeted realities)


Is it the atheist's fault he has not been fully exposed to god's greatness like christians have? If I truly knew god, is it actually possible for me to reject him? If not, then non-believers can claim they never knew god and thus could never truly believe, and if it is possible to reject god on a semi-regular basis then it's difficult to believe he's as great as christians make him sound (an all loving benevolent being is a tough thing to hate).

thank you for being open minded enough to ask intelligent questions and not just flare up at the mention of religion and a "set of rules to live your life by"

Not sure here.... are you saying that religion is necessary to have a set of rules to live by? I would appreciate clarification

[battle composed]

...Lets see me get banned for saying somthing bad aginst people that have killed thousands of incocent people, lets see me get banned for saying somthing bad about a contry that has been fighting a war with themselfs since Christ died! Lets see me get banned!! Cuss if I do, I guess somthing is really wrong with standing up for the country you live in!

Edit: i just posed you...that was sposed to be a neg so yea!! just cicked before I switched it...

h()()t, rest in peace.

I was going to neg him a few times for that, but nooooo...someone has to ban him. Now, I have neg anger!

I suppose I can wait till he gets back on with another persona and give him one every other week. h()()t discovers he's not always right. :D

About what? What they did was wrong! And untell I see them do somthing right...and that shure hasnt happend I dont plan on changing my view point!! They gave me the view on them that I have...im sorry for all of the people that are stright and still muslium...but your fellow muslims ruined your rep...porlly for the rest of my life!

Endless...you can die if you are trying to say that God isnt real!

Fanatics/Extremists are always bad. You are behaving like one. Stop, repent and see the light. You sound stupid, is anyone reading your posts supposed to assume americans and christians are stupid? Grow up, literally. Maybe they can ban you for 10 years and then let a-improved-you back in.

[The Botosai]

lol good old h()()t, i remember a few years ago he was agnostic

[deathbydarkness]

Hey, asshole. Your post was against the TOS, regardless of whether you were giving vocal shape to those useless, idiotic brainwaves you call thoughts. I am not a Muslism, or a Hindu, or any other religion that utilizes the wearing of a turban. I am a Jew, as you should have seen before by my previous posts. But I forgot. You don't think before you type. Hell, you don't think period. And go ahead and say that I am wrong. Because if you think the Jews are wrong, then your good buddy Jesus is wrong too, seeing as he was a Rabbi. You honestly sound like those guys who make fun of religious rednecks, except you aren't joking. They do not believe in false gods at all. They believe in one God, who is the same God that Abraham and Moses knew.

Did you know that some Catholics have beards? Oh yes, great, long beards. It's because all men who have testosterone and are not bald grow hair from their face at a certain age. You are seriously one of the biggest idiots I have ever known. Go crucify yourself so you can feel what it's like to have been Jesus. I'm sure that will make it better, won't it? Actually, go out into the vacuum of space. Oops, I mean, go out into God. Just throw yourself outside of the atmosphere. I'm sure it will be warm.

Also, thanks for responding to a neg with a neg. Have a fun banning.

i have a question for a jew.....what do you have to do to get to heaven?

p.s. please dont use profanity of any kind.....

[Jehutyv.2.0]

i have a question for a jew.....what do you have to do to get to heaven?Exist.

p.s. please dont use profanity of any kind.....I use anything within the TOS, shithead.

[deathbydarkness]

^ so everyone goes to heaven?

[Jehutyv.2.0]

^ so everyone goes to heaven?
Yessir, Sherlock.

[Anarchy_United]

Even people with :mad: Unaproved sexual orientation:mad: ?

[deathbydarkness]

how can that be when the bible says..

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life"

I take that to mean that Gods gift is offered to everyone but it is up to us to ask for it!

[Kyir]

I didn't get a word of that, mayperhaps you should get someone to write a holy book who can speak english ;]

[ReTodd]

My thoughts on heaven and hell:

They are the same place. Simple analogy. Two dinner tables, at one the food is passed around and people enjoy the company. At the other table people snatch the food in front of them and refuse to share not talking to others at the table. Same table, one is hell, the other heaven.

Anyone care to share their ideas about the separation of church and state?

[deleryn]

My thoughts on heaven and hell:

They are the same place. Simple analogy. Two dinner tables, at one the food is passed around and people enjoy the company. At the other table people snatch the food in front of them and refuse to share not talking to others at the table. Same table, one is hell, the other heaven.

First, I'd like to clarify that there's nothing Biblical about going to heaven or hell the moment you die. That's just the secular interpretation of the Bible, which amounts to monkey dung. Second, (and I learned this from O.S. :bigsmile: ) your hypothesis isn't supported by any evidence. The only source of information about heaven or hell comes from the Bible, which doesn't mention any more than we need to know while we are alive. If you don't want to believe the Bible, why bother with Heaven or Hell? If you do believe in the Bible, there's only so much it says. We know that the Bible says people who do not satisfy God's conditions on Judgement day are eventually thrown into the Lake of Fire and cease to exist. That's a little different than being greedy at the dinner table.

Anyone care to share their ideas about the separation of church and state?

It was written to keep the government out of the church. People with religious bases for their morals are always going to have a religious influence on the government. An Atheist is going to allow his beliefs to dictate the way he responds to the latest beef just as much as the Christian or anybody else. It's the Establishment Clause and all that keep the government from being influenced too much by any given faith.

[Chaos Theory]

so where do you go after you die? In the bible it clearly states that there is a heaven and a hell. You say we dont go to either after we die...so where do we go? The defintion is as follows: Hades-hell; the place where the spirits of the dead live. Heaven- the place where God lives; the sky. I understand that when you die you have to face God, but what i dont understand is when. Are you (deleryn) trying to say that there is a...pergutory or something? do you cease to exist for a certain amount of time or what? can you explain it to me any better?

[max2k106]

I understand that when you die you have to face someone. whether it be God or satin,
How do you face satin? . . .

[Chaos Theory]

Your right, i should have phrased that differently. Im just trying to figure this out, lol forgive me if i seem persistent, but i really dont understand what deleryn is saying

[deleryn]

The Bible doesn't talk about hell and heaven much because there isn't much that the living Christian needs to know about it. In fact, I can't remember many verses mentioning heaven or hell off the top of my head (but I'm not the best at that). One of Jesus' parables mentions "the place where Moses is", which would naturally be some kind of holding place between life and heaven or hell.

I don't believe that there is any way to work off your debt for salvation. Either the blood of Christ covers your sins and God accepts you, or He doesn't--there's nothing mankind can do to rid himself of sin. I'm just inclined to believe that, like with Moses, there is some "in between place" where everyone goes after death. I don't know if everyone goes to Hades, or if just the sinful stay there and others don't, or what. From there, those God finds worthy make their way to heaven and those He doesn't are destroyed eternally.

Of course Satan can't yet be found in hell. Hell is a prison, designed for the sinful and betrayers of God. God will be completely separate from that place. Satan is still alive and well on planet Earth, wandering and tempting the minds of mortals, like any other demon. Like in Job 1:6-7 --

'One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."'

Of course, if you don't believe the Bible, then all of this amounts to nothing anyways. BTW, Job was a good book. And also, "the sky" is obviously metaphorical.

[Chaos Theory]

ok i get it now, thanks for clearing up :) have you read the entire bible or do you just do in-depth research?

[deleryn]

ok i get it now, thanks for clearing up have you read the entire bible or do you just do in-depth research?

I don't think I've read the whole thing. I really should, but I just don't keep track of what I've already read. I like to research everything that I do read, and sometimes its nice to review some of my favorite books and passages, but I don't think that I have it in me to read every single chapter of Leviticus.

Here's a link to a cheap Bible-online thing if you want to see what I'm talking about.
Bible Gateway! w00t! Leviticus Chapter 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=4&version=31)

Imagine that multiplied by 27 and you've practically got Leviticus.

[Chaos Theory]

lol im gonna start using this site

[lazygun]

A straight-up question Deleryn,are you a Catholic?....

[deleryn]

No, why?

[Chaos Theory]

I think that if you are a catholic you do believe in taking "steps" to become a favored one.

Deleryn said he doesnt believe in that...of course I might be wrong

[deleryn]

A friend of mine, also a Catholic, said that his church abolished the doctrine of Purgatory centuries ago. I don't know any other Catholics to ask.

They're not different from any other denominations--they have rough times and good. My dad keeps saying that Communists infiltrated their heirarchy or something. Actually, the Puritans who moved here circa 1700 or whatever believed it was impossible for African Americans to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Of course it isn't Biblical, but sometimes people are dumb enough to just not ask questions.

[lazygun]

I'm Scottish.
Religion is very popular here.....:D
Your posts remind me of the difference between Catholics and Protestants.

[Chaos Theory]

I actually heard something about that the other day, about how the African-americans would never make it into heaven. My dad is a catholic and was just "preaching" to me about that.

[Kyir]

A friend of mine, also a Catholic, said that his church abolished the doctrine of Purgatory centuries ago. I don't know any other Catholics to ask.


awww, thats no fun, it sounded way cooler then anywhere else