Do souls exist?

[TheBlazedAce]

I have a challenge to make, I'm sorry if it sounds insulting to anyone. A few nights ago I was having a conversation with a friend that turned into an interesting debate. It was about abortion and the idea of a soul came up. He said that the existence of a soul has been proven. Now, I've heard of a process in which patients were weighed while they were dying and that the weight was different or something of the sort. I looked for this and found one site that actually mentioned it and this site was not credible, had no references, had no real proof that the process was done, just sort of mentioned a few people and that each one had a "sudden" drop of 3/4 of an ounce. I know, I couldn't even believe what I was reading. I've stood on a scale at home and it can "suddenly" waver between a few pounds even when I'm not moving, but somehow 3/4 of an ounce changing is "sudden". The body would have probably weighed about 150 pounds (I'm being generous as heck here) and somehow a change in 3/4 of an ounce is sudden? Have we not all done labs in school and weighed small objects? Their weights are less then 1 kg and the scales are digital and very accurate, and they waver within a few grams constantly.

Of course, when I mentioned this study and how if it's done in the open there's no reason to assume there are too many other factors that could have caused a change in weight like air escaping rapidly or something. Instead my friend mentioned that a study was done where a body was put in glass casing and all times this was done while the person was dying (I thought about this for a minute, should have brought it up in the debate, if the glass was closed and the person wasn't dead, wouldn't putting him in it kill him, but if he was put after he was dead this study is void. Anyway, after he died the glass always broke and the theory is the "soul" had to escape through the glass, and these things, all these studies imply that a soul must have mass and density and in turn cause air to be pushed in a direction enough to increase the pressure inside the glass to break.

My challenge is simple. I tried searching for these things, but could only find 1 source mentioning the first "study" and it was vague and unreliable. If a study really was conducted by proper scientists and you know of a source, I would just like to see it. I would like to be educated in this process and understand it. Perhaps proof would sway my decision to not believe in souls.

[Aro23r]

A person is stabbed in a car. The windows don't break afterwords.

[Excaliber]

I have never thought abaout it that way... That is very interesting..

[Wolfman]

when is the last time u read a bible ace?

Matthew 10:28

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

amen.

wolfy

[mushroom_girl]

I believe in souls. After all, what else makes you you? I also believe in an afterlife for that soul, you can't just rot in the ground. That sucks.

However, people like Jeffery and Chuck Norris sell their souls for cheap tricks like killer clowns and stellar good looks. Then steal their souls back.

[uniquinous]

Read (http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/id787.html) - this is the topic, summarized.

If you put someone in glass and cut off their air supply, they die. If the air flow is open, well, then the glass is pointless. Furthermore, even if the case was that 21 grams was expelled from the body, chances are it wouldn't shatter some air-tight glass, but rather just condense a bit.

The thing is, if a soul had a set mass, then it theoretically can be somewhere. As in, the stomach has a mass. Extracting this organ impairs digestion. If a soul had a mass, and existed in a particular place, could it then be removed? What then would the person become? Furthermore, in a more scientific light, where does this mass go? I find it rather hard to believe that 21 grams happens to just form and fade into nonexistance - it somewhat disagrees with the laws of conservation.

Like most other unsolved mysteries, there's a group of people who are ready to immediately propose this one "proves" something spiritual. While the possibility exists, as it had for every other previously unsolved scientific matter, it's more likely to just be something we haven't quite figured out yet.

btw Ethopian, if I may be so bold as to also call you that, would these friends you were talking with happen to be the ones we have in common? :bigsmile:

[Moose]

The soul is often refered more to a spirtual basis then a scientific, so in order to understand life and death itself, you may just have to tap into philosophy, scince, religious aspects of life, and your own personal view.

What we see is often what we believe, what we don't see is often the truth.

Though uniq tries to make a good point, she obviously is just taking her analysis on a purely scientific ground point. Nice try though sweety ;).

[deleryn]

I'm inclined to think that this "21 gram" thing isn't your soul because I always believed in the existence of a spiritual world. If the soul would stay inside a glass case, wouldn't that keep it from entering whatever spiritual world exists? Or perhaps the soul can penetrate glass like a breeze through a screen window. This is interesting to think about.

Though uniq tries to make a good point, she obviously is just taking her analysis on a purely scientific ground point. Nice try though sweety ;) .Does anyone really want to see this dragged into threads where it doesn't belong? The mods, or anyone, can suck up if they want to. You can even track their every word if you wanted to. But it shouldn't be in an intelligent conversation such as this. It's not going to bring Twelve back or even prevent something similar from happening again.

[uniquinous]

Yes, you're right - my analysis was purely scientific. My own personal beliefs tho are this: I do believe there is something... more, to humans. Call it will, spirit, soul, etc I don't know. But, I don't for a second believe it is some 21 gram thing in the body that fades from existance when we die.

Now back to the scientific: what happens if someone is resusitated (I should know how to spell that better...)? Do they gain the 21 grams back? :huh:

[Demon_Wings]

I beilve that the term soul doesn't mean an imortal soul. But our lifes. And do not fear he that can destroy the body but can not destroy the soul. God brought Lazarus back to life. So obviously he can restore the soul.

[web101990]

i don't want to come off really ignorant or anything, but i find it very hard to believe anything spiritual. I think really religion is only there to comfort people about the thought of death. Spending eternity with friends and family on a cloud sounds a hell of a lot better than rottin' in the ground. In my eyes humans are just animals, same as any other monkey except for our intellegence. did i just spell intellegence wrong...thats a little funny...

by body losing weight because soul left means one of those out of body expierences right? Those are explained easily by science. When you "start to die" your resperation system starts to fail first, lack of oxygen to the brain causes an overaction of an area of the brain that controls both sight and memory. The tunnel with light at end is the sight, the people at the end, memory.

Being atheist is a lot more fun on a sunday morning too...

[Wolfman]

I beilve that the term soul doesn't mean an imortal soul. But our lifes. And do not fear he that can destroy the body but can not destroy the soul. God brought Lazarus back to life. So obviously he can restore the soul.
Demon wings... wolf hope u don mind what he is gonna say...

if u wanna share god´s words... use his words.... don translate....

wolfy

[Aro23r]

did i just spell intellegence wrong...thats a little funny...


Heh. =Þ

[Demon_Wings]

Demon wings... wolf hope u don mind what he is gonna say...

if u wanna share god´s words... use his words.... don translate....

wolfy
Genesis 46:18 She bore 16 souls.
Obviously humans cant make imortal souls. Only God. So therefor i belive soul refers to life not imortal souls.

[Aro23r]

EDIT: Cancel this; don't wanna get involved in this.

[Dove]

i don't want to come off really ignorant or anything, but i find it very hard to believe anything spiritual. I think really religion is only there to comfort people about the thought of death. Spending eternity with friends and family on a cloud sounds a hell of a lot better than rottin' in the ground. In my eyes humans are just animals, same as any other monkey except for our intellegence. did i just spell intellegence wrong...thats a little funny...

How arrogant. And incredibly arrogant moreso because you show an incredible lack of basic knowledge. Language is communication, part of language is spelling. Before you try to ever prove anything, learn to spell "intelligence" and a fair share of other words.

"Arrogant" best describes ANY Empiricist. Howso? Close your eyes and start walking. Whether or not you can perceive the wall you run into, it exists.

Stick your hand into freezing cold water, then into lukewarm water. Feels hot. Stick your hand into scalding water, then into lukewarm water. Feels cold.

Optical illusions. Inability to explain the taste of salt other than "salty."

Despite these "bends" in human sensory perception, people still rely on science as the ultimate means of truth. Whatever man, it's SO arrogant for a human being to think that he can understand or even PERCEIVE everything that exists.

We can't even understand what we can perceive many times. Atoms were an amazing discovery, then subatomic particles came along. We can't see small enough to figure it out. We can't see large enough to figure out the universe.

And yet we base all "truth" on human perception and science. How arrogant. The grandiose size of the universe and the miniscule size of subatomic particles exist as proof that humans are not ultimate. Humans cannot be gods. We can't even master our own earth. Our measly, insignificant speck floating in what we perceive is an endless ocean of what might be just waste.

That's why I trust in God. I have experienced Him in ways beyond what most other humans experience in their daily lives, sometimes within a lifetime.

Here's a statement to oppose ALL of you who claim the logic of "religion is an invention of the strong to control the weak" or "religion is a cop-out for those who can't think properly or who can't understand something about our universe."

Humanism and [extreme] Empiricism are for people who are afraid of someone being more powerful than them that will hold them accountable.

Science is good, and Christians will admit that. Why are there Christian scientist? Because God has commanded us to take dominion over the earth and be stewards of His handiwork and creation. God allows humans to use their [limited] knowledge to find things about His creation that just show how awesome He is. It doesn't even have to be something scientific. The way a beautiful woman just turns over a man's mind is proof enough that there's something more than man can explain. Sure, tell me it's bad logic. Well to you strict scientists I say this: you and your descendants after you have fun travelling on a never-ending quest to enlightenment. It's unattainable, because humanity is not what Humanists believe it is.

We are not gods. God is the only one. I will put my faith in Him because He knows what I can't, and He loves me just the same.

Souls exist as a vaguely describable part of the human existence. Whether or not we can perceive them has no sway over whether they exist in the realm of reality or not. The best part of this argument is this: you can't prove me wrong. My premise is that you have limited knowledge. Since the only knowledge you possess is the knowledge that you do, indeed, possess, there exists a wide possibility (and a rational one at that, just consider my examples of the vastness of the universe) that you'd be missing some very important bit of knowledge in trying to refute me.

When I am weak, then He is strong. When I realize that I can't know everything, then His ultimate knowledge comes and fills the void in the human heart that so many try to fill with science or facts. Knowing the One who knows everything, who CREATED knowledge, is much better than trying to grab on to the intangible.

Thanks.

[Jeffery]

If souls do not exist, then what have I been stealing?

[Aro23r]

Shoes.

Gotta watch your spelling, Jeff.

[Soda]

Yes.

[TheBlazedAce]

Shoes.

Gotta watch your spelling, Jeff.
Soles are the bottoms of shoes. Why would Jeff need the whole shoe?

[uniquinous]

I might be mistaken, but I believe you just called academia as a whole arrogant there Dove :huh:

Knowing the One who knows everything, who CREATED knowledge, is much better than trying to grab on to the intangible.
Should people have followed this wonderful advice, instead of seeking knowledge for themselves, we would still be in the stone age. ;)

Science is not intangible. Hardly. Just because we haven't figured out every aspect of the topic at hand doesn't make it such. At one point DNA was some "intangible" concept that people said the same thing about. No use seeking that if you know god, right? Then Watson, Crick, and Franklin came around, and gave *very* good reasons why we *should* study DNA. "God" left humanity with quite a few unfortunate genetic diseases, and genetics directly combats that.

Historically, "intangible" scientific fields we have conquered usually lead to some great accomplishments for mankind.

You knowing god doesn't help the electrons move across the circuitry in your computer and spread your opinion on these forums. Science does. Technology does. Regardless of your beliefs.

The way a beautiful woman just turns over a man's mind is proof enough that there's something more than man can explain
:eek: *pokes that topic with 10 ft pole then runs*

[Red Fire]

There are many factors that could be this 21 grams. The article says that is wasn't air in the lungs because "To test the possible weight of air in the lungs, he said he and another person each got on the bed and strenuously inhaled and exhaled. Their efforts made no change on the scale".

This is very wrong. You cannot get rid of all the air in the lungs when u are still alive. Air is flowing constantly throughout the body and it is impossible to get rid of it all unless you are dead, b/c when u are alive, yes even when u are not breathing, the body is using air and has air in inside of it.

Now, getting out of that topic, I believe that the only way a person has a soul, is if they believe in God. If someone or something doesn't believe in God, then they are not religious and therefore since having a soul is religious, they don't have a soul. Whether the soul exists or not, is up to everyone individually. We cannot mass agree that souls exist or don't exist.

As for finding an answer for you Blazed, you have ur decision about souls and your friend has his. That's all I can say.

[Dove]

I might be mistaken, but I believe you just called academia as a whole arrogant there Dove :huh:


Should people have followed this wonderful advice, instead of seeking knowledge for themselves, we would still be in the stone age. ;)

Science is not intangible. Hardly. Just because we haven't figured out every aspect of the topic at hand doesn't make it such. At one point DNA was some "intangible" concept that people said the same thing about. No use seeking that if you know god, right? Then Watson, Crick, and Franklin came around, and gave *very* good reasons why we *should* study DNA. "God" left humanity with quite a few unfortunate genetic diseases, and genetics directly combats that.

Historically, "intangible" scientific fields we have conquered usually lead to some great accomplishments for mankind.

You knowing god doesn't help the electrons move across the circuitry in your computer and spread your opinion on these forums. Science does. Technology does. Regardless of your beliefs.


:eek: *pokes that topic with 10 ft pole then runs*

Entirely incorrect. Not to mention you selectively ignored key points of my post. Try not to prove my point in your posts, please. It makes debate all too easy.

Knowledge is not pointless. However, it is not fulfilling. Think of how often theories and "laws" are revised. How arrogant of us to think that ours is the final revision; the last link of the intellectual chain. Some laws are perhaps perfected. God has allowed us to obtain truth through science. However, He has not allowed us to grasp ultimate truth through science. It's why science progresses, but never achieves perfection or ultimate truth.

Christianity does not retard progress. Essentially all of western knowledge was prolonged by monastic writers and historians. When Rome fell and the church picked up the pieces, monasticism was the predominant force in retaining the knowledge of the Greeks and Romans and was the only force in producing new knowledge. While limited progress took place outside the church, it was mostly stagnant. Also, I believe I already stated that Christianity does not abolish science; IT ENCOURAGES IT. Christian scientists exist (as I've already said and you've chosen to ignore because it's not within your presupposed stereotype of Christianity and is thus incomprehensible to your closed mind) because GOD TELLS US TO TAKE STEWARDSHIP OF THE EARTH. HE tells us to study and to take dominion. As I already said, God gives us science to encourage us to explore and expand our minds. You chose to ignore this in my post. Please don't in this one.

Science is not intangible. Hardly. Just because we haven't figured out every aspect of the topic at hand doesn't make it such. At one point DNA was some "intangible" concept that people said the same thing about. No use seeking that if you know god, right? Then Watson, Crick, and Franklin came around, and gave *very* good reasons why we *should* study DNA. "God" left humanity with quite a few unfortunate genetic diseases, and genetics directly combats that.

Answered even before you questioned. If you really want to have it answered again, read my last rebuttal to your poorly formulated and ignorant retort.

"God" did not leave humanity with these. Humans are supposed to expand their knowledge, as I've said. Science is wonderful. Science should be studied. Disease curing, technological advancement, exploration of unreached places, ALL encouraged by God through His stewardship grant of His creation to us. The "Catholic" church abused what they called "God." When they left Scripture behind... that's the ONLY thing you can say about the church. You can say nothing about the church at times when it was genuinely following the word of God. I'll say that now since you'll bring up something stupid like the Crusades, because that's the usual cop-out for the anti-Christian moron who can't think of anything better to say. Catholicism is not Christianity.

Historically, "intangible" scientific fields we have conquered usually lead to some great accomplishments for mankind.

You knowing god doesn't help the electrons move across the circuitry in your computer and spread your opinion on these forums. Science does. Technology does. Regardless of your beliefs.

Ok. That's true. There's no rebuttal on my behalf because nothing you said here goes against any of my beliefs or my previous statements. You said this why? Because you ignored what I said. Try not to make such a fool out of yourself next time. This will include reading what I have to say and having an open mind. I'm sorry I expect so much.

[TheBlazedAce]

Can't we all just get along guys? I know I initiated a touchy subject, but honestly it was for the purpose of seeking knowledge and reading reactions and opinions of other people. I don't want us to fight about things like this, but I do like to discuss it rationally and see other facts and different points of view. Please be respectful of others and especially of their beliefs.

[Dove]

Can't we all just get along guys? I know I initiated a touchy subject, but honestly it was for the purpose of seeking knowledge and reading reactions and opinions of other people. I don't want us to fight about things like this, but I do like to discuss it rationally and see other facts and different points of view. Please be respectful of others and especially of their beliefs.

I hope that's not directed towards me. Nothing uniq said was in contradiction to what I said.

I'm a bit upset by the fact that he blatantly ignored the context of my post because of an assumption about my faith.

At any rate, my first post explained my thoughts, and with logic that no human can logically refute. The antagonism for antagonism's sake pushed my buttons a bit.

[Wolfman]

Can't we all just get along guys? I know I initiated a touchy subject, but honestly it was for the purpose of seeking knowledge and reading reactions and opinions of other people. I don't want us to fight about things like this, but I do like to discuss it rationally and see other facts and different points of view. Please be respectful of others and especially of their beliefs.
mega will love this thread... it is called "drama"

let it be ace.... nobody is being disrespected here...

the mods will watch this too.

wolfy

[Man's Laughter]

No.

[Wolfman]

No.
no what?

wolfy

[Dove]

No.

I can't prove to you with science that souls exist. I can, however, prove that there's no way you can be 100% sure of your no.

At best, a skeptic on the existence of souls can say "I don't think so."

Why? Check out my first post. Just, ya know, would like to point out the logic there.

[Man's Laughter]

I can't prove to you with science that souls exist. I can, however, prove that there's no way you can be 100% sure of your no.

At best, a skeptic on the existence of souls can say "I don't think so."

Why? Check out my first post. Just, ya know, would like to point out the logic there.

And you can't be 100% sure that a deity exists, or that yours is the correct one.

"Do souls exist?". That was the question, and I answered it how I saw fit. It's obvious that no discussion is going to change what anyone thinks about such an issue, so I'm going with the decision B) Not wasting three hours of my life trying.

Tally-ho.

[Dove]

And you can't be 100% sure that a deity exists, or that yours is the correct one.

"Do souls exist?". That was the question, and I answered it how I saw fit. It's obvious that no discussion is going to change what anyone thinks about such an issue, so I'm going with the decision B) Not wasting three hours of my life trying.

Tally-ho.

Tally-ho to you, too. :)

Speaking of which, I'm a big fan of ye olde English sayings all of a sudden. Luckily I can't think of an example off the top of my head.

[uniquinous]

Dove, I responded to your above comment in the Christian thread, as it has nothing to do with the topic of souls.

I must also ask that you please calm down. You seem to be a bit worked up on this topic, with fists swinging at anyone who you percieve to disagree with any part of your beliefs. Please, take some time to reflect. That's all I ask.

[Office_Shredder]

They did a study to verify supposed "out of body" experiences.... when a patient went in for surgery, there was a computer screen hooked up to the ceiling that would randomly select an image out of a gallery, so that nobody knew what image it was at the time.

Invariably, the patients would magically see all sorts of things, but no one quite had time to look at the image on the screen

[web101990]

How arrogant. And incredibly arrogant moreso because you show an incredible lack of basic knowledge. Language is communication, part of language is spelling. Before you try to ever prove anything, learn to spell "intelligence" and a fair share of other words.

"Arrogant" best describes ANY Empiricist. Howso? Close your eyes and start walking. Whether or not you can perceive the wall you run into, it exists.

Stick your hand into freezing cold water, then into lukewarm water. Feels hot. Stick your hand into scalding water, then into lukewarm water. Feels cold.

Optical illusions. Inability to explain the taste of salt other than "salty."

Despite these "bends" in human sensory perception, people still rely on science as the ultimate means of truth. Whatever man, it's SO arrogant for a human being to think that he can understand or even PERCEIVE everything that exists.

We can't even understand what we can perceive many times. Atoms were an amazing discovery, then subatomic particles came along. We can't see small enough to figure it out. We can't see large enough to figure out the universe.

And yet we base all "truth" on human perception and science. How arrogant. The grandiose size of the universe and the miniscule size of subatomic particles exist as proof that humans are not ultimate. Humans cannot be gods. We can't even master our own earth. Our measly, insignificant speck floating in what we perceive is an endless ocean of what might be just waste.

That's why I trust in God. I have experienced Him in ways beyond what most other humans experience in their daily lives, sometimes within a lifetime.

Here's a statement to oppose ALL of you who claim the logic of "religion is an invention of the strong to control the weak" or "religion is a cop-out for those who can't think properly or who can't understand something about our universe."

Humanism and [extreme] Empiricism are for people who are afraid of someone being more powerful than them that will hold them accountable.

Science is good, and Christians will admit that. Why are there Christian scientist? Because God has commanded us to take dominion over the earth and be stewards of His handiwork and creation. God allows humans to use their [limited] knowledge to find things about His creation that just show how awesome He is. It doesn't even have to be something scientific. The way a beautiful woman just turns over a man's mind is proof enough that there's something more than man can explain. Sure, tell me it's bad logic. Well to you strict scientists I say this: you and your descendants after you have fun travelling on a never-ending quest to enlightenment. It's unattainable, because humanity is not what Humanists believe it is.

We are not gods. God is the only one. I will put my faith in Him because He knows what I can't, and He loves me just the same.

Souls exist as a vaguely describable part of the human existence. Whether or not we can perceive them has no sway over whether they exist in the realm of reality or not. The best part of this argument is this: you can't prove me wrong. My premise is that you have limited knowledge. Since the only knowledge you possess is the knowledge that you do, indeed, possess, there exists a wide possibility (and a rational one at that, just consider my examples of the vastness of the universe) that you'd be missing some very important bit of knowledge in trying to refute me.

When I am weak, then He is strong. When I realize that I can't know everything, then His ultimate knowledge comes and fills the void in the human heart that so many try to fill with science or facts. Knowing the One who knows everything, who CREATED knowledge, is much better than trying to grab on to the intangible.

Thanks.

isnt it a little arrogant that you believe only in god and it isnt possible there isnt a god? seriously though, chill out, thats what you think, and what i said is what i think. your not going to "convert" me, so that whole entry there was a little pointless. I guess im not allowed to believe what i think... and all that stuff about human perception, the walls there physically, not spiritually...and the water, science isnt us, its the universe...

ive gotten this spelling critic before. in case you dont all get it heres a guide

i=I
any sentence that doesnt start with a cap=imagine one

sorry, i know its very hard to understand. seriously its not like its broken english, just some caps.

and if god is real......SEE YOU ALL IN HELL...im not making the cut for heaven...

[d00msday]

No its not at all arrogant. Its the truth. You can believe what you want, but if you keep believing wat you are. Your believing a lie. If you actually knew what you were saying you would be in fear.

[Man's Laughter]

No its not at all arrogant. Its the truth. You can believe what you want, but if you keep believing wat you are. Your believing a lie. If you actually knew what you were saying you would be in fear.

Wow, aren't you just so very open-minded...

[Pyratheon]

I don't belive in souls. I believe that when we die, we die. we don' get a second life.

[Madars]

The answer is sometimes!

:hunter:

-Mad-

[web101990]

No its not at all arrogant. Its the truth. You can believe what you want, but if you keep believing wat you are. Your believing a lie. If you actually knew what you were saying you would be in fear.

yet another "bible thumper." You give me one fact that its the truth. Your belief is based on "truthiness" and as much as i love Colbert, its a joke. its all based on your belief, at least i have things to back what i think up. You have an unreliable book, and i have tens of thousands of centuries of proof. Once your dead, your dead. We are no different from any other animal on this planet. There are so many religions out there, and everyone is convinced they are right. at least im open minded, you are not. If God were to create us all like we are physically today, then why are there so many ancient skeletons being found in Africa and Asia that have similar characteristics of humans and apes? Becoming more and more human like as the dates they date back to are closer to today. Weve evolved and we're not done. Does that mean theres no god? no, just that he didnt create us, maybe our ape ancestors, I doubt it, but not us.

I never attacked your beliefs, so dont attack mine.

What am i fearing??? Christians used to be loving, but now theyre just overcontrolling.

[Anarchy_United]

Let me pose a much deaper question:
Do bagels exist?

[d00msday]

yet another "bible thumper." You give me one fact that its the truth. Your belief is based on "truthiness" and as much as i love Colbert, its a joke. its all based on your belief, at least i have things to back what i think up. You have an unreliable book, and i have tens of thousands of centuries of proof. Once your dead, your dead. We are no different from any other animal on this planet. There are so many religions out there, and everyone is convinced they are right. at least im open minded, you are not. If God were to create us all like we are physically today, then why are there so many ancient skeletons being found in Africa and Asia that have similar characteristics of humans and apes? Becoming more and more human like as the dates they date back to are closer to today. Weve evolved and we're not done. Does that mean theres no god? no, just that he didnt create us, maybe our ape ancestors, I doubt it, but not us.

I never attacked your beliefs, so dont attack mine.

What am i fearing??? Christians used to be loving, but now theyre just overcontrolling.


You say you have proofs to back up your theory what are some of them? saying our bones look like animal bones is like saying a basball and a tomato are both round therefore they came from the same thing. The Evolution Theory would take billions upon billions of years. They have measured the amoont of dirt on the moon from year to year, and seen how much accumulates over the years.. and even the worldy scientist say that the earth cannot be billions of years old because the math would not work.

[Pyratheon]

Let me pose a much deaper question:
Do bagels exist?

maybe, but they could always be a figment of our imagination... lol:smartass:

[TheBlazedAce]

You say you have proofs to back up your theory what are some of them? saying our bones look like animal bones is like saying a basball and a tomato are both round therefore they came from the same thing. The Evolution Theory would take billions upon billions of years. They have measured the amoont of dirt on the moon from year to year, and seen how much accumulates over the years.. and even the worldy scientist say that the earth cannot be billions of years old because the math would not work.
And what about proof that shows that these thigns do work? What legitimate source says the earth isn't as old as predicted? Dirt from the moon, please stop speaking nonsense.

There's a lot more then just bones for proof for evolution. Check this out, this is a lot closer then a baseball and a tomato: http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/top10_missinglinks.html

[uniquinous]

Let me pose a much deaper question:
Do bagels exist?
Everyone knows god just put fossils of bagels on Earth as a conspiracy to fool scientists into thinking they evolved into donuts, when in reality god made all donuts here as is, and there were 2 on the Ark (chocolate glazed, and the powdered kind with the filling), along with 2 bagels (cinnimon raison, and everything); from which all other breeds of donuts and bagels were sexed from.

EDIT: croisonts, among various other french things, are still a mystery.
EDIT II: this site is a hoax!!!oneonewonwon: Donut Evolution (http://home.comcast.net/~osoono/history.htm)

[web101990]

You say you have proofs to back up your theory what are some of them? saying our bones look like animal bones is like saying a basball and a tomato are both round therefore they came from the same thing. The Evolution Theory would take billions upon billions of years. They have measured the amoont of dirt on the moon from year to year, and seen how much accumulates over the years.. and even the worldy scientist say that the earth cannot be billions of years old because the math would not work.

Honestly, that was one of the worst attempts to convince anyone. Evolution is all around us. it doesnt have to take place over millions of years, it can be as short as one. What does the flu do every year? it evolves into a different form, thats why they need to make new vaccines every year.

Im not sure what your trying to say about the dirt on the moon thing. i think you mean that the amount of topsoil that accumulates over the years on earth isnt the same as the moon. If thats true, you either made that scientist up, or that scientist cheated his way through college. The moon doesnt have an atmosphere, thats why theres craters all around it. space dust can enter freely at any time because theres nothing to stop it, and the meteorites remains have to go somewhere. The earth does have an atmosphere, so the object thats entering has to be large enough to make it to the earth without burning up.

Heres something for your baseball tomato theory (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/images/afarl_resiz.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/bos_afar_aeth.html&h=205&w=241&sz=10&tbnid=BXu5AE1dSpC4tM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=105&hl=en&start=5&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dearly%2Bhuman%2Bskulls%26svnum%3D10%2 6hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff)

I dont usually say this, one of these new words, but...
You got owned, and you know it.

[orlygr]

Web if you had a Monkey for an uncle noone really cares.

Evolution from ape to man has not been proven any more than a God has been proven.

Scientist are now convinced the Big Bang was the start of the Universe but they can't explain why it happened.

And recent studies have shown that the expansion of the universe is actually speeding up instead of slowing down which defies all logical scientific laws.

Science cannot disprove or prove a God does or doesn't exist.

As for a soul. I can only give what I believe which I can't prove.

Something makes us all unique.

Something gave me a consciouness in this body.

Something makes me me and you you.

Does the Something die when my body dies? I have No idea.

Heres a ponderance.

For "Every Grain of Sand on the Earths Beaches there are a Million Stars in the Universe."

The Universe is so massive you cannot visualize its size in your mind no matter how hard you try.

And our most brilliant scientists are stumped at the complexity of it all.

I hope there is a God.

I need God.

Scientist say every atom, every mineral, everything that makes up our bodies has been in existence since the Big Bang.

So I believe.

God snapped his fingers and the Universe and we exploded into existence.

That makes us a part of the Universe and to me means even when we go back to dust we are still part of the Universe.

And I hope some little sub atomic part of me "the soul if you wish to call it that" will get to buzz through the Universe at "Ludicrous speed":D and see it all and get to know it all.

[d00msday]

Honestly, that was one of the worst attempts to convince anyone. Evolution is all around us. it doesnt have to take place over millions of years, it can be as short as one. What does the flu do every year? it evolves into a different form, thats why they need to make new vaccines every year.

Im not sure what your trying to say about the dirt on the moon thing. i think you mean that the amount of topsoil that accumulates over the years on earth isnt the same as the moon. If thats true, you either made that scientist up, or that scientist cheated his way through college. The moon doesnt have an atmosphere, thats why theres craters all around it. space dust can enter freely at any time because theres nothing to stop it, and the meteorites remains have to go somewhere. The earth does have an atmosphere, so the object thats entering has to be large enough to make it to the earth without burning up.

Heres something for your baseball tomato theory (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/images/afarl_resiz.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/bos_afar_aeth.html&h=205&w=241&sz=10&tbnid=BXu5AE1dSpC4tM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=105&hl=en&start=5&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dearly%2Bhuman%2Bskulls%26svnum%3D10%2 6hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff)

I dont usually say this, one of these new words, but...
You got owned, and you know it.


There are two types of evolutoin micro-evolution(such as the flu) and macro-evolution(apes turning into humans). Both theories have to be taken by faith, and im not goin to convince someone online.

[TheBlazedAce]

There are two types of evolutoin micro-evolution(such as the flu) and macro-evolution(apes turning into humans). Both theories have to be taken by faith, and im not goin to convince someone online.
They're actually just the same thing, but some people want not to believe in evolution, so they pretend like the evidence only shows change within a species.

Someone on another forum answered this exact thing like this:
that is false. see here( http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html ) and here( http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html).

furthermore, one could make the argument that dogs have speciated, since chihuauas and great danes cannot mate with each other naturally.

on top of that, there are ring species, which very clearly demonstrate speciation. for example, there are several populations of Ensatina salamanders in california where each population can mate with its adjacent populations, but the 2 populations at the ends of the ring cannot mate with each other.

Edit: Faith, by definition is "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence", and the theory of evolution is the opposite, it has loads of evidence to support it. Stop trying to manipulate semantics to feel better about yourself.

Edit: orlygr, just becuase you don't understand half of the things mentioned, doesn't mean scientists have not predicted truths about them. The speed of light being constant is illogical from the standpoint of earlier, much accepted, classical physics, and quantum mechanics is illogical from the standpoint of special and general relativity, but that doesn't mean we don't understand them. There's a lot of evidence for everything you mentioned, but you don't take the time to look for it and just assume it doesn't exist. Go research before you bash the work of great minds before you.

[uniquinous]

Truth. People refused to believe in evolution. Then scientists showed how easily bacteria evolve to overcome environmental hardships. The anti-evolutionists termed this "micro-evolution", and set it aside from "real evolution", basically claiming it didn't count. In all actuallity, they are the same, but E. coli reproduces is 20 minutes (72 generations overnight) whereas humans take closer to 20 *years* (that's nearly a century and a half for the same number of generations).

You will not have found mules on Noah's Ark. Your problem is - you can't explain why without admitting evolution exists. :wink2:

[d00msday]

I just can't seem to figure out why you think we evolved from a little micro-organism into humans by chance. It just blows my mind.

[TheBlazedAce]

I just can't seem to figure out why you think we evolved from a little micro-organism into humans by chance. It just blows my mind.
It blows my mind that enough people in the world were convinced of Hitler's rein of terror. It blows my mind that the American people were a bunch of slaver owner's fighting the British government... for freedom. It blows my mind that so many people joined cults in the 60's that were erradicated slowly and then the group all committed suicide. It blows my mind that Ghandi was able to fight off a power so great during that era it had never been attempted before.

You know what doesn't blow my mind, a theory with lots of evidence backing it up, when 90% of the scientific community agrees on it, and the only people still against it are always the people against every advance... in science.

You're just trying to be close-minded and ignoring all the facts before you. You dwindle down the theory of evolution into that one idea, that micro-organisms over time evolved into all life we see before us. You don't seem troubled by the idea that a thousand foot tree can begin as nothing but a little seedling or that despite hardships, baby turtles still swim through the ocean and grow up to procreate every year, etc. You just want so hard to keep believing that evolution is not true, just becuase of your old belief. You started out with the mindset that your old beliefs must be true. Instead of keeping an open mind about things, you closed off and shoved away any proof before you just to feel good about your old beliefs. It's nothing but stubborn, narrow-mindedness. Please, just leave it behind.

[d00msday]

I know where im going when i die. Heaven. I just wish you knew the same.

[TheBlazedAce]

I know where im going when i die. Heaven. I just wish you knew the same.
You don't know that at all, you're a Christian, one sect of it, which "believes" without proof for its existance, that they're going to a great place when they die. JOIN THE FREKIN CLUB, so does everyone else. Every single sect of every religion in this entire world is all saying the exact same thing, that only through MY GOD and MY BELIEFS are you going to this great place when you die, eternal salvation. You have no reason to have faith in your own over others beside that you were born into this one. Get over yourself, this reason for belief is pathetic. I would think God, being a reasonable mind, would turn away those only faithful to him for the reason of eternal salvation. You sound pathetic to me, if this is truly the last straw on which your faith stands.

[plusminus]

Religion is a path,
not a destination.

[d00msday]

Religion is a path,
not a destination.

Chritianity is not a religion, its a belief.
Baptist is my religion.

[plusminus]

That's fine. What I said wasn't directed at you specifically, just this thread (and others like it here) in general.

[Office_Shredder]

Scientist are now convinced the Big Bang was the start of the Universe but they can't explain why it happened.

There are multiple theories rooted in sound mathematics that can explain the big bang.... the problem is that measurement instruments capable of distinguishing between the theories doesn't exist yet (a satellite that will be launched in 2007 will be able to). Most of them don't posit the universe "started" with the big bang, but the universe as we know it did. I'll explain one that I happen to remember off the top of my head here:

Instead of a single space as we know, there are multiple multi-dimensional manifolds (i.e. empty spaces), all colliding into each other. These manifolds have a potential energy with respect to each other... as the manifolds approach each other, the potential energy is converted into mass in the center of the manifolds. When the mass gets great enough, it breaks through the binding energy and explodes, causing the big bang (this is essentially when the manifolds "collide"). An interesting part of this theory is that there could have been an infinite number of universes before ours, meaning the odds of evolution as we know it occuring become very high

[web101990]

I just can't seem to figure out why you think we evolved from a little micro-organism into humans by chance. It just blows my mind.

You obviously havent taken any biology course if you dont understand that. If you're saying that, then how did other animals get here? Why are fossils of fish with primative leg extensions being found in the mountain border of india and china? You can believe it doesnt exist because of your religion, but i dont see how you find it so impossible.

[d00msday]

You obviously havent taken any biology course if you dont understand that. If you're saying that, then how did other animals get here? Why are fossils of fish with primative leg extensions being found in the mountain border of india and china? You can believe it doesnt exist because of your religion, but i dont see how you find it so impossible.


I dont think youve actually studied this. You just heard you teacher say it and just figured you better believe it to pass the test.

[uniquinous]

I just can't seem to figure out why you think we evolved from a little micro-organism into humans by chance. It just blows my mind.
I have studied this. Why do you think little organisms evolved into complex ones by chance? There's a baseless assumption right there. A mutation might pop up from chance, but the selection of that desired mutation is hardly chance alone. There is positive and negative environmental selection there. You can't ignore that.

Answer these questions for me, if you so strongly believe in creationsm:
Were mules on the Arc?
Why do humans get goose bumps?

[d00msday]

I have studied this. Why do you think little organisms evolved into complex ones by chance? There's a baseless assumption right there. A mutation might pop up from chance, but the selection of that desired mutation is hardly chance alone. There is positive and negative environmental selection there. You can't ignore that.

Answer these questions for me, if you so strongly believe in creationsm:
Were mules on the Arc?
Why do humans get goose bumps?


God made horses and God made donkeys and they can mate. go try and mate a cat n a dog n see what you get.. and get back to me.. and for your goosebumps you cant be serious.

[sayter]

"I just can't seem to figure out why you think we evolved from a little micro-organism into humans by chance. It just blows my mind." -doomsday


This statement, and this statement alone defeats your own argument. See, because I can turn it around on you, and the ignorance you are displaying:

I just can't seem to figure out why you think a metaphysical entity that lives in a magic place where we cant see him created the universe, and that a thousand year old book written by a bunch of guys on a mountain, when noooooooo one else was around, is taken as absolute literal fact . It just blows my mind.



Now, perhaps you can refute his argument with something a little less idiotic.

[Office_Shredder]

and for your goosebumps you cant be serious.

I'll answer for you:

Humans get goosebumps because we inherited them from our ancestors, who had hair thick enough on their bodies so when it stood up on end (from the goosebumps), it actually had the effect of making them warmer

[Riathmus]

That's strange... yet kind of cool. And I do believe in souls/spirits.

[sayter]

Furthermore, with more hair, goosebumps would make us appear slightly larger when threatened. Thus, making us more likely to survive an attack by predators on intimidation factor. Similar to when cats get their backs up, and whatnot. While not necessarily a truly effective deterrent, it can make a world of difference in the wilds to appear bigger and tougher than your devourer.

[TheBlazedAce]

Junk DNA: In molecular biology, "junk" DNA is a collective label for the portions of the DNA sequence of a chromosome or a genome for which no function has yet been identified. About 98.5% of the human genome has been designated as junk, including most sequences within introns and most intergenic DNA. While much of this sequence is probably an evolutionary artifact that serves no present-day purpose, some may function in ways that are not currently understood. In fact, recent studies have suggested functions for certain portions of what has been called junk DNA. Moreover, the conservation of some "junk" DNA over millions of years of evolution may imply an essential function. The "junk" label is therefore recognized as something of a misnomer, and many would prefer the more neutral term "noncoding DNA".
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_DNA

As said very nicely by Hume, "natural evils or apparently suboptimal designs might suggest e.g., an amateur designer or a committee of designers."

Why would God create us perfectly in all our glory (God is infallible after all) and give us so much wasted DNA? 98.5% junk-DNA points to an evolutionary flow of chance governed beautifully on the outside by natural selection.

[web101990]

"I just can't seem to figure out why you think we evolved from a little micro-organism into humans by chance. It just blows my mind." -doomsday


This statement, and this statement alone defeats your own argument. See, because I can turn it around on you, and the ignorance you are displaying:

I just can't seem to figure out why you think a metaphysical entity that lives in a magic place where we cant see him created the universe, and that a thousand year old book written by a bunch of guys on a mountain, when noooooooo one else was around, is taken as absolute literal fact . It just blows my mind..



Well put. Doomsday, i dont care if you dont believe in evolution. But you cant really call me ignorant when i only gave my opinion (while being open minded) when your going to think something like that. Back on page one when you said, "who are we to think we know everything about the universe" how can you then say confidently 100% fact that evolution doesnt exist. You see, i never attacked your beliefs, i only logically disproved your answers to what i had to say.

p.s. I watched that Carlos Mencia no strings attached show last night on CC. "God has a sense of humor, i know he does. Why? Just go to Walmart and look at the people."

[d00msday]

God made horses and God made donkeys and they can mate. go try and mate a cat n a dog n see what you get.. and get back to me.. and for your goosebumps you cant be serious.


Just think about wat you said... You cant see God so He doesnt exist.... can u see you brain..NO.. but u have one.. can you see air..NO.. but its there.. can u see a bullet being shot at you... NO.. but you will feel the affects of it.

OK so lets say the earth was any closer to the sun we would burn. and if it was any further away we would freeze. your tellin me something blew up and stopped in the exact perect location it needed to be. since there is know air or resitence in space if you were to throw something it would not stop. unless it got caught by the gravitational pull of something and seeing as how there was nothing here to stop it.. i dont see how you believe it...

[Jeffery]

I can see brains (including my own with just a drill and a camera)
I can see air, especially when it is foggy or polluted. Or even not if I use a microscope.
I can see a bullet being fired at me, and remember seeing it as long as it misses my head.

And yes, the earth and the other planets are spaced where they are from gravitational pull.

Speaking of gravity, did you know you can;t see it, but yet can still see it;s effects?

[web101990]

Just think about wat you said... You cant see God so He doesnt exist.... can u see you brain..NO.. but u have one.. can you see air..NO.. but its there.. can u see a bullet being shot at you... NO.. but you will feel the affects of it.

OK so lets say the earth was any closer to the sun we would burn. and if it was any further away we would freeze. your tellin me something blew up and stopped in the exact perect location it needed to be. since there is know air or resitence in space if you were to throw something it would not stop. unless it got caught by the gravitational pull of something and seeing as how there was nothing here to stop it.. i dont see how you believe it...

WOW... this should be an easy one...

unfortunatly everything you mentioned is there physically, not spiritually, so its not even relevant to what we're talking about.

think of all the planets in the universe, there is no number that could describe that. How is it so impossible that our planet is in the spot its in? Astronomers have discovered planets that could possibly have about the same climate as ours, and could support life. But what you said is not even close to the facts. If the earth was farther away, WE would freeze, closer and WE would burn. Notice the WE. life adapts to its conditions. We're adapted to the earths climate, and so we've lost the coarse hair our early ancestors had. Why do you think Mammoths died out (humans do have a roll in it, but it was mostly climate), and now we have modern day elephants? So if we were farther away, WE wouldnt exist, haired mammals would.

Yes thats 100% true, there is no gravity in space... ESPECIALLY near a big ol' sun of all things. The earth isnt as old as the universe. If you even know how an object goes into orbit, it has to have forward motion. The object has to be moving forward, and then get pulled in by a larger mass. This balances out because the object want to go straight while it also wants to go down, which causes it to orbit. That means the Earth would have had to be in a forward motion. Otherwise the Earth would just be pulled into the sun and burned up, because it has no resistance. (ex. take a small object and let it go in midair. what does it do? it falls down. Now take that same object and throw it forward. what does it do? curves down.) Therefore, the Earth had to be going forward, and couldnt possibly have been "poofed" in this exact spot.