Numbers Game - What Everyone Has Been Thinking.

[meat.eater]

It has now been ages since I have seen theburning, or Snarr. We have also now lost an In-game mod by the name of Allstar. Heres the deal. We cant afford to have this nonchalaunt group of Mods. We need active Mods. We need plentiful mods. We need mods that actually give a rats ass.

We need 12 mods total. 12 in game mods. 6 of which are "Super Mods" (who focus time on forums, therefore have little time for in game), leaving 6 to do a lot of server work (whihc is more needed than forum work).

I have observed for the last 2 months the forum mods decrease online time, to the poitn where it now takes 5 or more hours to delete an explicit, racist or insulting post/thread. Thats unacceptable. More than Max or Glamdring, Aro is on, and Realist was very active when he was around. But he's not.
Get rid of Snarr and theburning, and Seed. Seed shouldnt be a mod. Seed should with be an Admin, or not affiliated with TAO (officially), as he claims he is.

I see less and less in game mods, minus a select few. Lets not beat around teh bush. Monkus us constantly on. Uniquinous is constantly on. Bludhoundz is constantly on. I have been seeing much less of HatchetKlowne and LT. This may be time constraining, however.

We need to filter out the trash, and replace them with new people. I know we just created the in game mods, and they help a lot, when we have the numbers of them. As it stands we have 8/12 mods. TAO is huge. We need to fill those slots. Frankly, i dont think any In-Game mods need to be replaced. But I do think we need to fill our blank spots.

Replace theburning, Allstar, Snarr, Realist.
De-Mod Seed or make him an Admin. (This is much less of an issue, just a side comment, really.)

Let me give an example:
The example I will use is that say Glam, Max and Aro are movers, carrying a couch. They can carry it them, just the three of them, but for every person who cmes to help them carry, it becomes easier. But, because Glam and Max and Aro are also busy, decent human beings, they dont spend all their time carrying the couch, leaving the other 2, or 1 left to carry it alone, which they cant do. Their fellow movers, Burning and Snarr, decide not to come help move the couch. Ever. Even though they should be.

So get some new movers, so when the slope does get slippery, there are more to keep traction, and even if some arent around, there still may be enough to carry it, before the fellow movers get back to help. As of now, Glam, Max and Aro have no help, and although they can carry this sofa alone, it would be easier on them, and easier on TAO if more people were to pitch in, therefore providing that the job is done better, in all aspects.

And I dont see how you can say there is something wrong with that.

As for game-mods, I dont think we need more then the original number, being 6, but I think those 6 slots should be filled completely. As LT said, basically, "Its not that I'm not around, Im around a lot, just under the radar." As a game mod... being 'under the radar' doesnt do anyone any good.

Mods need to be on the ball. We should have it crystal clear that Mod policy includes that If a Mod is about to hit a rough part of thier life, step down for the betterment of the community. If you do it gracefully, you'll always be a #1 contender for replacement upon your return.

Sorry for being the guy who disagree's, but I think we need a change. I think its unrealistic to be able to assume that all mods can stick it out for a year, 6 months even. Yes, this means more work by the administrators, yes this means teh mods who are active will continue. But its time we dont just keep nobodys in a position of power. All positions are important, and should be treated as such.

TAO needs 12 active Mods.

Fini.

-meat

[x-useme]

I agree. Though, I wish those MIA mods would themselves realize that they are not fit to be a mod any longer due to lack of time. It would help much more to replace the old, inactive ones.

[Hatchet Warrior]

They should keep seed with the Mod color, but not count him as one. Replacing them would be a good idea also.

[Megabyte]

Fed up with what? Griping about what? Your not really saying anything, except you want more mods. WHY would be a good thing to include in this idiotic rant if some of you are intent on pushing it.


We don't need any new mods, the numbers of each and the people of each are just fine.

We the average people are unable to judge the viability or activity levels of any mode adequately, so any basis for "how much I've seen them on" is really a load of self centered crap.



What "easily avoidable" stuff do you mean? Sorry, but if your gonna start crap, I'm gonna call you for being purposely indirect on that. Cough up what incidents stand out. Who cares of some mods are MIA or simply "not on as much" as long as the jobs getting done?

"I want to see more mods on" isn't any real requirement or gripe, its just stupid. The mods are their to moderate the boards and game, not to be eye candy for you. If you have a REAL reason for why you feel more people would be helpful, then say it. Personally, I don't see any issues with the current mods either as people or the number of them. Leave it be.



If the mods feel that they require additional aid, they should be the ones to tell Sergiy (privately on their own boards or PM, whatever), then select new personal. They're more in position to dictate what is needed as their the ones who are qualified to observe and relate. Past incidents alone should be an obvious reason why the community as a whole just isn't capable of deciding or directing these things themselves.

[meat.eater]

Fed up with what? Griping about what? Your not really saying anything, except you want more mods. WHY would be a good thing to include in this idiotic rant if some of you are intent on pushing it.

Im not saying more, byte. The number the admins set out is fine. They are showing a want for 12, than lets fill the 12 slots.

We don't need any new mods, the numbers of each and the people of each are just fine.

The precise reason I made the thread. I want to see who agree's who doesnt.

We the average people are unable to judge the viability or activity levels of any mode adequately, so any basis for "how much I've seen them on" is really a load of self centered crap.

Fairly true. Time constraints, as I said, doesnt allow me to judge perfectly. But I certainly know who's more active than not. Frankly, as long as you sign on every 2 days, you're fine. I'm talking abotu people who are totally MIA. I'm talking about a position that is now void. Im not talking about replacing anyone who is doing their job.



What "easily avoidable" stuff do you mean? Sorry, but if your gonna start crap, I'm gonna call you for being purposely indirect on that. Cough up what incidents stand out. Who cares of some mods are MIA or simply "not on as much" as long as the jobs getting done?

I cant speak totally for you, but I dont think you go on the servers as much anymore. I see you on Rev and on forums. I dont think you are one to judge in that category. I know the Mods work hard, but I dont think we can afford to give up a position. They're constantly swamped as is. The more the better. We need more In-Game Mods then forum mods. Hence why forum mods have In-game powers as well. "Easily avoided" was directed at the fact we have 2 inactive Mods still in those positions. Not exact issues that Mods personally dont do. I may not agree or like how they Mod, but thats their own style. Not for me to decide.

"I want to see more mods on" isn't any real requirement or gripe, its just stupid. The mods are their to moderate the boards and game, not to be eye candy for you. If you have a REAL reason for why you feel more people would be helpful, then say it. Personally, I don't see any issues with the current mods either as people or the number of them. Leave it be.

Dont make up shit about "eye candy," because I never even mentioned anything remotely like that, or anything for my own happiness. I mentioned stuff because I felt the community, through what Ive seen and heard, feels this way. I guess we'll find out.
The fact is, the amount of time they are online on their Mod name, reflects howmuch work they are doing on the servers. And yes, I believe we need replacements to better the work being done on teh servers, and in the forums. Not closing an insanely stupid spam thread for 5 hours is, like I said, unacceptable. Even if forum Mods werent online, I used to be able to give a shoutout on AIM and they would come. I just dont see them online as much anymore, period. So we need more people as a result. You cant expect everyone to be 100% dedicated. They have other shit to do. Thats where teh number of them becomes key, because the chances that work is still getting done when one mod isnt online, is greater.



If the mods feel that they require additional aid, they should be the ones to tell Sergiy (privately on their own boards or PM, whatever), then select new personal. They're more in position to dictate what is needed as their the ones who are qualified to observe and relate. Past incidents alone should be an obvious reason why the community as a whole just isn't capable of deciding or directing these things themselves.

I disagree. I believe the community should have more of a role. Thats all I can say about this.

Thanks for the input. I, as you are i would assume, am eager to see the poll in a few days.

[Megabyte]

I cant speak totally for you, but I dont think you go on the servers as much anymore. I see you on Rev and on forums. I dont think you are one to judge in that category. I know the Mods work hard, but I dont think we can afford to give up a position. They're constantly swamped as is. The more the better. We need more In-Game Mods then forum mods. Hence why forum mods have In-game powers as well. "Easily avoided" was directed at the fact we have 2 inactive Mods still in those positions. Not exact issues that Mods personally dont do. I may not agree or like how they Mod, but thats their own style. Not for me to decide.
You'd be surprised at my play time in game actually.

Again, your not in a position to judge the workload of the mods (nor am I, but then again, I'm not attempting to do so, you are). If you have more data, or information, provide it. If not, we've already established your "say so" and my counter "say so."

Unfortunately for you, your the one bringing for a proposition for change, the burden of proof isn't on me to maintain the status quo.

You still have as of yet to actually provide information as to ANY actual reasoning. Calling the servers full, or claiming inactivity isn't reason why new mods should be selected. If the current active ones are able to handle their duties without difficulty, then remove the inactive if it makes you happy. Why select new ones?



Dont make up shit about "eye candy," because I never even mentioned anything remotely like that, or anything for my own happiness. I mentioned stuff because I felt the community, through what Ive seen and heard, feels this way. I guess we'll find out.
The fact is, the amount of time they are online on their Mod name, reflects howmuch work they are doing on the servers. And yes, I believe we need replacements to better the work being done on teh servers, and in the forums. Not closing an insanely stupid spam thread for 5 hours is, like I said, unacceptable. Even if forum Mods werent online, I used to be able to give a shoutout on AIM and they would come. I just dont see them online as much anymore, period. So we need more people as a result. You cant expect everyone to be 100% dedicated. They have other shit to do. Thats where teh number of them becomes key, because the chances that work is still getting done when one mod isnt online, is greater.

I'm not making up shit, I'm directly relating your reasoing. You gave NOTHING as to explanation except for vague statments, except saying that more mods were needed because there weren't enough on and some were MIA. To my mind, that means you want to see more mods online. Eye candy, get it?

Why are the mods swamped? Why is it imperative that the inactive mods be replaced with active ones? If they are so, then they should be ones saying so (again, preferably privately to my mind), no yourself or any other community member.

I think 5 hours is fine for the most part, so again this seems to be a matter of opinion. I likewise don't really consider it a problem that the mods aren't available for your private contact on IM's. PM's work just fine for my issues. Maybe I'd like to see actual deletion of threads instead of simply locking, but thats more of a policy issue and not related to the number of active mods.

I'll help you out a bit since you seem unable to lend to actual incidents which would ascribe some reasons. The ONLY incident that comes to mind where more active mods would have been helpful was the recent spam fest of 40+ threads or something. However, I'm willing to overlook that as based upon my own information I feel the guilty parties specifically waited for the active mods to head to sleeplate at night before doing it. Not an excuse for them I'll admit, but such circumstances as I myself am not gonna hold it against the mods.





I disagree. I believe the community should have more of a role. Thats all I can say about this.

Thanks for the input. I, as you are i would assume, am eager to see the poll in a few days.


I'm not eager at all.

As I said above, the community has demonstrated a total lack of intelligence or capability for deciding these sorts of things in the past. I think the whole fun times with the Game Mods original making should be reminder enough for that.

I don't see why this time would be any different, nor do I really care what they have to say. To be honest I'm surprised that you'd even bother to indicate otherwise.

You mean to tell me you've never complained of the behavior on the boards here these days? If you havn't respected the community as a whole for other things, why would this subject be different?

[meat.eater]

You'd be surprised at my play time in game actually.

Again, your not in a position to judge the workload of the mods (nor am I, but then again, I'm not attempting to do so, you are). If you have more data, or information, provide it. If not, we've already established your "say so" and my counter "say so."

Unfortunately for you, your the one bringing for a proposition for change, the burden of proof isn't on me to maintain the status quo.

You still have as of yet to actually provide information as to ANY actual reasoning. Calling the servers full, or claiming inactivity isn't reason why new mods should be selected. If the current active ones are able to handle their duties without difficulty, then remove the active if it makes you happy. Why select new ones?




I'm not making up shit, I'm directly relating your reasoing. You gave NOTHING as to explanation except for vague statments, except saying that more mods were needed because there weren't enough on and some were MIA. To my mind, that means you want to see more mods online. Eye candy, get it?

Why are the mods swamped? Why is it imperative that the inactive mods be replaced with active ones? I think 5 hours is fine for the most part, so again this seems to be a matter of opinion. I likewise don't really consider it a problem that the mods aren't available for your private contact on IM's. PM's work just fine for my issues. Maybe I'd like to see actual deletion of threads instead of simply locking, but thats more of a policy issue and not related to the number of active mods.

I'll help you out a bit since you seem unable to lend to actual incidents which would ascribe some reasons. The ONLY incident that comes to mind where more active mods would have been helpful was the recent spam fest of 40+ threads or something. However, I'm willing to overlook that as based upon my own information I feel the guilty parties specifically waited for the active mods to head to sleeplate at night before doing it. Not an excuse for them I'll admit, but such circumstances as I myself am not gonna hold it against the mods.







I'm not eager at all.

As I said above, the community has demonstrated a total lack of intelligence or capability for deciding these sorts of things in the past. I think the whole fun times with the Game Mods original making should be reminder enough for that.

I don't see why this time would be any different, nor do I really care what they have to say. To be honest I'm surprised that you'd even bother to indicate otherwise.

You mean to tell me you've never complained of the behavior on the boards here these days? If you havn't respected the community as a whole for other things, why would this subject be different?


Theres not much I can respond to in that besides the fact I havent stated a reason. WHich i believe I have:

And yes, I believe we need replacements to better the work being done on teh servers, and in the forums. Not closing an insanely stupid spam thread for 5 hours is, like I said, unacceptable. Even if forum Mods werent online, I used to be able to give a shoutout on AIM and they would come. I just dont see them online as much anymore, period. So we need more people as a result. You cant expect everyone to be 100% dedicated. They have other shit to do. Thats where teh number of them becomes key, because the chances that work is still getting done when one mod isnt online, is greater.

But if you dont see that as a legitemate reason, thats your own opinion, i cant change that.

Also the information and reasons I say were spurred from talking to other Mods and community members. I didnt just spring this out of the blue. I would hope you know me enough to know I wouldnt do that. The reason I am not saying specific things we've talked about is to spare the feelings of individuals. No, I dont desire to piss anyone off, so I'm probably being more general than I should. Because teh only thing that will happen in that situation is negative impact.

[Riathmus]

I haven't been seeing much of the mods either. And this seems like a fairly good idea.

[BaxVarlet]

Allstar resigned from being a mod because of the increased activity and attention it required in the past relevant history. Every time i'm on, a grey will be spamming "hang niggers" over and over again. And while it use to be names with symbols you simply couldn't kick, now they are normal names, that are easily kickable, and a mod simply isn't on. I mean no disrespect to Allstar, just using him as an example. He respectully resigned when he knew he shouldn't handle it, while others have simply been less active.

I can't speak for other servers, as I mostly just play on rev and GL, I agree with meat, the time the ingame mods are spending in game has greatly decreased recently. Usually if someone was spamming on GL, you could hop on to any of the other servers, and find a mod on to head over and deal with it. That is not the case anymore.

As for forum mods, there inactivity is also easily noticeable. But recently, I don't see the need for new forum mods, especially since the majority of spam/idiotic threads recently have been made by "vets" and aren't closed anyway.

[Hellblazer]

I say that's a fantastic idea. I have noticed that the mods have been less active overall lately and that should be changed, especially in these times where the game and the forums are losing their old quality.

[The Coder]

I really agree... to lazy to get into a long description as to why...

[zzzaacckk]

Meat. I have always pushed for more active moderating. the idea of haveing ingame mods was to at ALL TIMES have a mod on ingame. This is true some of the time but not all of it. I can always get them on AIM but I shouldnt need to. in addition the forums deffinitly need new or more active mods. Anyways, I agree.

[Forest_Archer]

Anyone who knows me knows that I am really a true geek in many respects, so I'm very active. I really agree on this, meat.

[inked]

I am on the game for hours everyday on Banff, and there is an in-game mod every hour or so who is on for about 5 minutes. It would be great if we could get 6 more in-game-mods. I know it sounds like too many, but I would rather see 2 mods on a server than 0.

[Matt 34.5]

More mods would help, thats obvious. I don't think its 100% neccesary, unless your completely impatient and unable to PM someone and wait a few hours, which most of the time is alot less than a few hours. The mods have been slowing down, and I think the MIA ones should be removed as mods at least until they come back and explain their lack of attendance. I also think the mods should be replaced every once in a while, because its true that you can't expect them to stay active for a year +.

In addision, I agree that the community should be looking more into the details and problems with TAO, concidering we're the ones that know how everythings going in-game. The best way to handle TAO problems/suggestions in a way that lets the community assist, would be to have a board for the discussion of TAO activities only. I think the board should be run with strict moderation, this meaning, no jokes, and no spam what-so-ever, and possibly more mods spacificaly for that board alone. Admins being able to read this board would be able to better understand how everythings going, without having to look through 100 spam threads that haven't been locked/deleted because they were done by "vets" with a bad sense of humour. You know who you are.

You'll notice alot of "I think"s, "I don't think"s or "In my opinion"s, because I like to stress how everything stated by anyone is, in-fact, an opinion/beliefe, or a quoting of an opinion/beliefe.

[Jeffery]

One of the reasons for there being less ingame mods on all the servers is Seeds implementation of One Connection rule. This prevents the use of a tool that displayed all three lobby chats in one window for the mods tobe able to use.

As for a few specifics, meat, you're off your rocker to even suggest demoting or promoting Seed. Seed has Mod status because he made the freakin game, and has the ability to post updates for it in the forums as needed. The fact that he doesn;t actually Mod does not mean he should be dumped.

As for the rest, Realist explained he would be gone for several months, to calling to replace him is stupid. Let it be for a while, and he will be back to being his usual arrogant super-modding self.

I agree Burning should have just steped down when RL kicked into overdrive.

As for Snarr and Glam, they do what they do. They are on enough that any serious threat to the forums are dealt with. Along with Aro, they;ve done good keeping the forums modewrately spam free. There really is no need for more in forum mods.

As for in game mods, until they find a way to allow the mods to be on all the servers again, you will see a decrease in their public time, because they will be on ONE server at a time like the rest of us are supposed to be.

[uniquinous]

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

I'm not quite ready to give a complete opinion on this matter just yet, but I need to point out 2 things that might guide this argument a bit.

1) The new update limits mod omnipresence. Previously I had a single window (the mod toolbar) which very nicely would show all three lobby's of chat feeding into the same place. From that perspective, we could easily keep an eye on everywhere at once, and in return it appeared that we were always on. That has changed now, as we can only be on one server at a time. Thus, even if our hours worked are exactly the same, everyone would notice, at the very least, a 1/3 drop in online mod time (from me anyway, I can't speak for others). That's significant. That's huge. That means we need the equivalent of 3 people for the work that I alone used to do. That doesn't mean the mods are slacking, it just means we *can't* do what you were used to seeing us do.

2) The position of in-game mod has a VERY short burnout time. VERY short. I can't stress this enough. Every action is wrong in *someone's* eyes. We get complaints that we aren't strict enough AND too strict at the same time. In short: we can't win, and the position at many times is one of mild abuse and unsettled reactions.

When I first presented the suggestion for in game mods, I specifically stated that the position is in such high demand, that we shouldn't tolerate inactivity too long, and quickly replace any in-game mod who hasn't been around. So far that's only been Allstar, and he readily acknowledged this. As for the forums, we're really not in need of extra mods. I'm on non stop. We're not. There was one incident Megabyte spoke of, but that was rather planned.

I'll leave my comments to that for now.

EDIT: damn jeffery beat me this time...

[Megabyte]

As a side note, after talking with a number of you kids, it occured to me that many of you don't have any experience in even observing the way other online places are run (games, boards, communities, etc).

I'm not saying I know better, or that you're all idiots (though I may imply that last part pretty often) but perhaps a broadening of horizons would lend to more informed opinions.

Yes, you can pull some crap and say "TAO isn't those places" but reality holds true. I think a lot of you just have really unrealistic expectations, and need to get over them. Mods are volunteers, and simply because someone is more available atm doesn't make them more suitable, nor should a mod be removed simply because they are less available atm.

I'm pretty sure we've established that appropiate people should be more than "I'm online 20 hours a day..pwnzerz!" for their reasoning.

[Megabyte]

Last side note (I promise), I will personally take effort to take any mods who express opinions on this topic and rake you over the coals.

Not personal uniq, and I know your actually just giving input to the workload and situation that the game mods are in. Thats actually appreciated by myself, as I'm sure it is by others. The information shown can either confirm or deny suspicions and opinions expressed by everyone, and helps prevent idiocy.


However, as I explained to meat sometime last night, if the mods are actually having difficulties keeping up, they should express it themselves (preferably privately to Sergiy, or as a last resort a thread like this). My biggest gripe is that a community member brought this out, which to my mind we have no business doing.

If a community member comes forth, stay out as this is our discussion as far as your opinions are concerned. Community should NOT be reprsenting you guys, the reverse is how its supposed to work. If some of you don't have the testicular fortitude to express yourselves (to the detriment of the community), you shouldn't be in your positions.

[Matt 34.5]

My biggest gripe is that a community member brought this out, which to my mind we have no business doing.
Who would know better how things are running on TAO then community members? The community knows more about life in-game then all the mods and admins put together, and the communities opinions should be taken into account.

[Megabyte]

Who would know better how things are running on TAO then community members?
The mods, I was under the impression that was why they were slected. Did you just read that one line and completely ignore the rest of the post? I thought I made that abundantly clear...



The community knows more about life in-game then all the mods and admins put together, and the communities opinions should be taken into account.
Totally disagree with that. To my mind most of the community is barely capable of differentiating their heads from their arses, while using both hands.

When have we ever been able to handle important decisions without degenerating into pettiness and drama? I include myself in those past incidents as well, so don't plead indignation on that point.

[The Coder]

I am on the game for hours everyday on Banff, and there is an in-game mod every hour or so who is on for about 5 minutes. It would be great if we could get 6 more in-game-mods. I know it sounds like too many, but I would rather see 2 mods on a server than 0.

Thats a good way to sum up what I was thinking

[Matt 34.5]

The mods, I was under the impression that was why they were slected. Did you just read that one line and completely ignore the rest of the post? I thought I made that abundantly clear...



Totally disagree with that. To my mind most of the community is barely capable of differentiating their heads from their arses, while using both hands.

When have we ever been able to handle important decisions without degenerating into pettiness and drama? I include myself in those past incidents as well, so don't plead indignation on that point.
Ok.. your right about the drama & crap that comes out of the TAO community... and the bs that is TAO. But I still think there are too few active mods to speak for the whole of TAO. Im not a strong believer that we need more mods, but maybe a group that arent moderators, and have the oportunity to mention their views on how the games being run? And I don't mean this suggestions board, where most of the good ideas are ignored, or get drowned out with ideas like this (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25506), I mean an actual group of people that have a clue whats going on and can voice their opinion on TAO in-game to staff. Advisors I guess they could be called?

And no I didn't ignore the rest of your post, I've read the whole of every post in this thread and that one part just realy bothered me. We do pay to play the game, and if we're paying then our problems should be taken into concideration, not just what the staff see's. The customer is always right.

Anyways, I understand why you think TAOers shouldn't have a say, but at the same time I feel they should. I guess unless I can figure out a real way of breaking even I should probably shut up then.

[EleMENTAL]

I was thinking the same thing today, and just made a thread not seeing this one.

I totally agree with meat besides the seed part. The mods just arn't active enough, we need active mods.

[mushroom_girl]

The community knows more about life in-game then all the mods and admins put together, and the communities opinions should be taken into account.
Mods are community members too. Or at least they were. But yes, our opinions do matter.

I've seen a decrease too. I agree with Meat on the fact that there has been a decrease in mod activity from a few. Realist has explained himself. Cool. He'll be back in a couple months. But we're down another mod until then.

theburning is busy. Fine. But that's not helping us any. She's a great mod when she's here, but I haven't seen her active in God knows how long.

Snarr is busy. Alright. But that's not helping us either. He's a great mod too, but he's not here.

Glamdring isn't here, but she is easily reachable. That seems alright with me. She is here more than theburning and Snarr, at least.

I don't know too much about the activity of the in-game mods because I'm rarely online enough to tell. But from what people are saying, they aren't here much either.

I'm not saying just kick them off the list, but try to reach them first. If there is no responce within a week or two, then maybe it's time to move on. Find other people. If they say that they are going through something and are on temporary leave, that's fine. Keep them on the list. But maybe "temp-mods" are an idea?

[Wizzy`]

Favortism.

[Wolfman]

well, wolf will miss taking his medicine on time due to reading n trying to post before wife gets mad.

now hear this:

1. Meat,

good thread n dumb thread at the same time, let sergiy n his super n non-super mods sort this one out themselves. If u wanna be mod, pm sergiy n perhaps he will make u one. Or perhaps make a poll on yourself n self-proclaiming mod... blah, blah, blah. (don take this as a attacking because wolf thought u "pushed" star over the edge).

2. Mega,

go get a beer n eat a trout, why take this meat so seriously, it has been a while bro that wolf read long n serious post of yours. Your point is taken, n wolf agrees with ya, that sergiy n team should fix this thingy themselves. Can´t rep ya, wolf got to be less "stingy" with his repping before he can give it to u.

3. Seed, TB, Snarr to be taken out as mod.... wtf?

If some outkast members or all outkast members challenged wolf to take out snarr as co-leader of clan, wolf will kill them, all of them if needed... don ask.... understand?.. using this for an example.

4. The game-mods who posted here,

stay away n stop defending yourself n so forth, we heard your stories thousand times already.

5. Those guys who voted yes or no,

Monkeys, u hv better things to do, so get on it.

Wolf is dumb.

Time for medicine.

Wolfy

[monkus]

4. The game-mods who posted here,

stay away n stop defending yourself n so forth, we heard your stories thousand times already.
...
Wolfy

Aww, but I love telling stories.

I see no real reason for why more mods is bad. As long as they're all responsible and acting proper, you can always use a few more mods. I have seen a lot of really wasteful threads that could've been closed. Nothing serious. It would be nice. I think this issue is one of those where you really have to look quizzically at anyone who's taking it very seriously. This isn't a game-altering issue that'll haunt us forever.
You could argue whether the forum mods are doing enough or not, but it's obvious that there's some sort of line and what's going on now is pretty close to the line, regardless of which side. So I think it's fair to conclude that it'd be nice to have a few more.
As for in-game mods, we could always use more. Keep in mind: if a game mod becomes a forum mod and is replaced, the forum mod can still help out in-game moderating. It's like +.5 just for doing a kind of move up/transfer.

[Wolfman]

monk, u should be taking your time to look for your college than posting in this thread. :P

vote monk for the extra mod....lol, wtf, monk is already mod... :P

wolfy

[Silent~Sniper]

Word.

[PlatinumG]

Can I make a suggestion here?

Maybe it's not that the community needs MORE moderators and so-forth, but maybe it's that they need a new SYSTEM for keeping an active group of said moderators around. By no means am I an expert at running a community the size of TAO, but I am actively involved in several communities (at some level or another) that are, in some cases, much larger than TAO. From those experiences I'd like to borrow a few ideas and put forth this suggestion:

Why not incorporate a 'trial membership' type system, under which in-game and forum moderators receive, say, a 3 or 6 month term to proove themselves and show what they can do. At the end of that term, new candidates should be put forth to fill in the positions. The old candidates should automatically be put forth for a re-vote, however, as there is a chance that they might have remained completely active and helpful during their term. This does, of course, raise a slew of questions, which I'd also like to suggest answers for:

How would the candidates be chosen?
-Simple. The current in-game and forum mods should select a group of 20 or so members of the community to form a panel of sorts. This panel would select the possible moderator candidates and cast their votes for those same candidates to decide who should be promoted, and who should be demoted. This panel should consist of mature members that can listen to and respect each others' views on their candidates, whilst at the same time, being able to disagree without starting a flame war. Whilst on the panel, these members should not be eligable for a moderator vote (thus keeping it from being an elitist "well, we're here, let's pick ourselves" type of thing).

What if the panel become lazy in their ways?
-If they become less-active or fall out-of-touch with the general community, they should be replaced, as is being suggested of the current moderators. It's a fairly well-known fact that when someone gains new 'powers' or a higher status, they'll be an incredibly active member of the forums for a while, but that starts to wear off, the activity decreases. By rotating panel members and moderators, it can remain an active and 'fresh' group of faces that should, at all times, be in-touch with the goings-on of TAO.

How would the actual candidate vote work?
-Again, fairly simple. The members of the 'panel' should give the names of the three members (or more if the need arrises) that they feel would be best suited for the position, with reasoning. Once all members of the panel have stated their choices, a poll-vote should begin consisting of the names of the members selected the most in the candidate process and the current moderators. The vote should close as soon as everyone has made their choices and the demotions/promotions should go from there. Moderators still in power at the time of the vote should automatically be included in the poll, and if they have done their job during their term, they should have no problem keeping their position based on the results of the vote.

What if a member of the panel is more suited to be a moderator?
-If that's the case, then a fellow member of the panel should nominate him/her as a candidate. When the vote comes around, that particular member should (obviously) refrain from voting for themselves (by way of making the votes 'public' to the panel), and try to remain at an objective standpoint (that is, after all, why they would have been on the panel to being with).

This system is by no means perfect, and still has a lot of questions that could be answered, but based on my experiences with other communities, it's a relatively successful one.

(I don't expect this system to go anywhere in terms of actual useage by the TAO staff members, I merely wanted to put it out there as a viable option to work towards keeping an active staff core).

-PG

[uniquinous]

Let's get one thing straight here: I've not come to this forum making any opinion on the matter. I've done one thing, and that is to provide some form of clarification and explanation.

As a mod I constantly seek feedback, and this (albeit indirectly) is just that. However, a one way communication channel would be a rather poor one, so I gave some background info. If you don't like it, sorry, you'll live, but unless you can present an argument as to why it hurts this discussion in any way, it will remain.

btw, in the entire existance of this username (uniquinous), I have not once seen Snarr or theburning as active. That doesn't mean we should necessarily strip them of the titles they earned, but we shouldn't be seeing them as active mods. The only comprimise would be to create a third mod group, such as "retired mods" with all the benefits of a mod, but clear forum differentiation. As that's never gonna happen, we just gotta stick with what we got.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I see less and less in game mods, minus a select few. Lets not beat around teh bush. Monkus us constantly on. Uniquinous is constantly on. Bludhoundz is constantly on. I have been seeing much less of HatchetKlowne and LT. This may be time constraining, however.

Since when have I not been constantly on?

I'm on every day, for hours of every day, on the Great Lakes and Armageddon servers (but not Banff--don't judge me). However... I HAVE been using my moderator account substantially less. This doesn't have so much to do with any unwillingness to mod, but primarily over the fact that seeing a moderator account online is cause for the anti-mods, like Hangman (yes, I've seen him around so much I've given him a nickname... For those who can't associate him with this name, he's the guy that spams HANG NlGGERS with the virtually indistinguishable name that uses the special euro [not the normal euro] and hyphen, neither of which appears on the character map), to, well, do their thing. Due to computer constraints I can't actually track his name--as far as I know, monkus and Bludhoundz have been making remarkable progress, but not yet to fruition... And there have been others that have been insanely difficult to track, like lines, and if I cannot kick to a certainty, then damage prevention is kept better off by laying low.

In the meantime, why give these people a reason to spite the moderators?

Instead I've been using different lobby tactics that allow me to remain inconspicuous... Such as lobby sitting on a grey, then swapping names when someone tries to break a rule and kicking them, or having my mod account in-game and communicating with clanmates who help me monitor the lobby.

I'm around... I've just found it easier to fly under the radar at this point in time, and do my work with a lower profile. :)

EDIT:

Maybe it's not that the community needs MORE moderators and so-forth, but maybe it's that they need a new SYSTEM for keeping an active group of said moderators around.

I wouldn't mind an hourly wage. :p

[killermarv]

i do think we need more mods but not to many just people who are always playing this game and keeps the place under controll like now there are tons of cheets about but the mods say well i cnt do nothing even if u tell them the name of the person they ignor u which i fink they should giv a warning a least

[Princess J]

Agreed, well put meat.eater!

[mantis33]

I agree, there are hardly ever any mods on Revelations. I know this because lately I have been on there all the time. When I have been to GL a few times, uniq is there sometimes, but not always, which I don't expect her to be.

Now for the forum mods, well... that is where we are most lacking in my opinion. Max is sometimes on and Aro is sometimes on, I havn't seen Glam in a while, Realist is out for a while.... and Seed,theburning, and Snarr are never on. Just my 2 cents. :)

[uniquinous]

i do think we need more mods but not to many just people who are always playing this game and keeps the place under controll like now there are tons of cheets about but the mods say well i cnt do nothing even if u tell them the name of the person they ignor u which i fink they should giv a warning a least
:dry: When you come to me saying "ZomFg dat n00b is teh HaX!" and I ask "Do you have any proof?" and you respond "but h3 hax!" and again I ask "DO YOU HAVE PROOF?" and you respond "no", *then* the mods don't do anything.

We don't take action without seeing proof. Have a nice day.

[Woodland]

I haven't seen much of bludz doing mod work lately he does come on his gold and just chats and has a laugh but I haven't seen him on his mod account for a while.

HK comes on at rare occasions and Monkus doesn't come on Banff so I guess he stays at GL or Army. I've seen more of Uni than any other in-game mod so far.

I don't think having more would be nessecary at all, why have more when the ones at the moment could just be replaced, its simple when you think about it, and someone needs to take upon the place Allstar did have.

[uniquinous]

but allstar really never had a place. It's not like we're suddenly only acting with 5 mods... we've *been* only acting with 5 for a while now.

Also, it wasn't the best idea for meat to put "12" and "mod" in the same sentence if he is trying to appeal to sergiy :wink2:

[Woodland]

Sergiy might get the wrong idea there >_<

[Wolfman]

but allstar really never had a place. It's not like we're suddenly only acting with 5 mods... we've *been* only acting with 5 for a while now.

harsh... shut it.

wolfy

[uniquinous]

no no, that's not saying anything bad about allstar, it's just stating fact. I mean, part of his leaving was acknowledging this. And while I could remain completely diplomatic, I'd rather just state fact and move past it. It's really not meant to bash Allstar in any way, but for the people who keep saying "omg we're down a mod!", we really aren't running any differently - and that should be known for the purposes of this discussion.

[Doctor Love]

harsh... shut it.

wolfy
Stop talking in the third person, idiot. I know you didn't in that post, but seriously it annoys me.

[mantis33]

Stop talking in the third person, idiot. I know you didn't in that post, but seriously it annoys me.
DL, please chill dude, wolf can talk how he wants. No need to call him names.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I agree, there are hardly ever any mods on Revelations.

That's because there has never been more than 15 or so people on Revs unless a tourney is going on, nothing ever happens, and when something *does* happen, every potential rule-breaker is gold and can be dealt with by reporting for deletion. There's really no need for us there--the other servers, on the other hand, need maintenance.

[Hoolwath]

I am very satisfied with the game-mods, all of them. I do not know what is with Allstar thanks to my inactivity. I do believe some of the Forum-mods should be exchanged.

I do not agree with changing Realist. That was a horrible idea.

If I did not miss something, he should be back soon...

[Megabyte]

harsh... shut it.

wolfy

reality is harsh, and even allstar's statement called it truth


I'm rather pleased to see the lush amount of ignorant thoughts and comments contributed by all. Thanks to everyone for proving my point in that the community as a whole is unable to properly ascertain these sorts of things, and should be left out of the loop.

[Wizzy`]

Well, I'm normally on Revelations now. But when I was on army, GL, and banff. I saw mods on all the time..I don't really understand the point of this thread..It's kinda..dumb.

[Wolfman]

reality is harsh, and even allstar's statement called it truth

mega, we both know what reality is... don´t we?

but again, being more dipomatic in words aint a bad thing at all....

some things are so obvious that they don´t need to be mentioned, unless someone´s intent is to get credit or dis-credit the other.

For example, we both know that u sux more in grey games than wolf..... hv we got to say it? the answer is no, it is meaningless n we both know that.

throws mega a trout. :P

wolfy

[meat.eater]

Interesting responses.

All i would ask is tht you actually search your own brain for true respnses, rather then trying to mimick someone who may have been around longer.

Keep in mind - the point of this wasnt to say: "Lets gets more Mods, because they suck right now." The point was, quite simple, "lets replace the mods that are doing nothing." (Allstar, theburning, Snarr)

[uniquinous]

Meat, to be direct: I don't think you've addressed any of the valid points brought up here yet. What instances can you point out where more active forum mods are needed? Let's start there, before getting into the game mod area.

[meat.eater]

The spam of 40 + threads.

The insanely stupid "Skof is Racist" thread.

Moving Nubish threads to Newb forum hasnt really happened at all.

The fact is, we havent had this few active forum mods... well... ever. I can safely say I see a game mod on nearly every time I sign on, whether they are on servers or not when they're n is a different story, to be discussed at a different time.

I know Glamdring and Max are busy. I dont know Aro enough to know whats happening in his life, I know he is more active than they are. I also know I see Glam on IRC much more than TAO. Thats nothing against her, I love her dearly, ideed, but thats not something I would have above my priority that I see as a job.

This is not saying that I think they are *bad* mods, at all. Im saying they need more faces, so when they are on, they are doing the great job they do, and when they are not (most of the time), someone else is doing a great job, rather than seemingly abandoning the forums.

I dont know about anyone else, but I see posts daily that I dont think should be allowed posted, or that I think should be edited. Thats just not happeneing, because when it's posted, the Mods arent on. And I dont blame them for not searching for those posts, unless their attention is brought to them. They have to deal with the now, not what they missed, because theres enough happening at one point on a busy Saturday or Friday to be looking back for missed posts.

Then again, as I said in my original post, I am very picky, and am speaking (very much so) from how *I* would do things. This isnt necessarily the right way, but from the looks of it, the majority of people tend to agree with it.

[uniquinous]

The spam of 40 + threads.

The insanely stupid "Skof is Racist" thread.

Moving Nubish threads to Newb forum hasnt really happened at all.

The fact is, we havent had this few active forum mods... well... ever. I can safely say I see a game mod on nearly every time I sign on, whether they are on servers or not when they're n is a different story, to be discussed at a different time.

I know Glamdring and Max are busy. I dont know Aro enough to know whats happening in his life, I know he is more active than they are. I also know I see Glam on IRC much more than TAO. Thats nothing against her, I love her dearly, ideed, but thats not something I would have above my priority that I see as a job.

This is not saying that I think they are *bad* mods, at all. Im saying they need more faces, so when they are on, they are doing the great job they do, and when they are not (most of the time), someone else is doing a great job, rather than seemingly abandoning the forums.

I dont know about anyone else, but I see posts daily that I dont think should be allowed posted, or that I think should be edited. Thats just not happeneing, because when it's posted, the Mods arent on. And I dont blame them for not searching for those posts, unless their attention is brought to them. They have to deal with the now, not what they missed, because theres enough happening at one point on a busy Saturday or Friday to be looking back for missed posts.

Then again, as I said in my original post, I am very picky, and am speaking (very much so) from how *I* would do things. This isnt necessarily the right way, but from the looks of it, the majority of people tend to agree with it.
I understand you're not pointing the finger at any bad mods, but aside from that single spam thread run, which was specifically targetted for a time when no active mods were around, we haven't really needed extra mods. Are you saying you would like more censoring?

I am somewhat a fan of freedom of speech (with the exception of cursing, which is uncalled for in the eyes of our younger members). If someone makes a racist thread, let the community come forward and directly deal with it. Modding at my college gave me this little scenario which came up: if the KKK decided to have a demonstration on our main lawn, they would have freedom of speech to say anything they want. And while security could very easily just force them off the private property, I would rather see the student body come together as one community to hold a protest against that horrid outlook on humanity. Because that unity of fighting the problem, together, is stronger then any quick solution of just hiding the problem.

So when a member makes a stupid claim, let the community deal with it. If indeed it is just spam, then sure it needs to be locked. What I'm hearing from you more then anything tho, is a want for more threads to be moved to the noob board. I can understand that, but also those threads tend to die out rather quickly. So, yes, another forum mod would *help*, but I don't really think by that much...

[meat.eater]

We disagree, I see.

1. (The weaker and more pansy of the two arguments ;)) This isnt an American run site. American free speech isnt [necessarily] implied.
2. I dont think its appropriate to expose those younger members (who, incidentally you dont think should be exposed to profanity) to be exposed to themes such as the KKK, abiding by your example. We bring up a lot of racy material, which if perfectly fine to discuss, but there are many members who hardly 'discuss' anything, more rather thrash their bigotry and unneeded insensitive remarks around. Children, and teenagers, and even people in general, shouldnt be exposed to it. And yeah, you can agrue they dont have to go read it but, 1) they may not know they are reading it, 2) they may not know until after they read it, and 3) Its like the gun awareness commercials sparked childrens adventurous spirit to go find the gun and reinact the commercial. Hense why those are no longer on the air. Even if the community is at an agreement that the issue presented is moraly wrong, they are still exposed at a time, and place, for that matter, that they shouldnt be exposed to it.

[uniquinous]

You clearly are stuck on the finer details of the example instead of its *point*. You see, the KKK isn't here, and if they were, I'm sure we *would* banz0r them. HOWEVER, smaller issues, such as threads dedicated to claiming a member is racist, CAN be delt with by the community, as it has been. This isn't America, and total freedom of speech is not implied, respectfully and appropriately expressing ideas is. I would rather err on the side of that freedom then begin to really tighten the flexibility of speech here. I think we're at a good level.

However, you're making a claim to alter current forum policy. What I mean is, we could say "all mods should restrict speech more" (if that's what you want). But in doing so we don't need more mods to accomplish that goal. So I think what I'm currently seeing is a discrepency between what you actually want, and what you are proposing would fix what you see as lacking.

As such, my point still stands: I don't believe that MORE mods running under the same current philsophy would necessarily change the forums. Yes, it will help, but minimally. It's like when you study for a test, and the first 3 hours will boost your potential grade from an 80% to a 90%, but the next 3 hours of studying will only get you to 92%. Yes, it helps, but not by much - and the time/energy spent on it weighs against the benefits.

[meat.eater]

However, you're making a claim to alter current forum policy. What I mean is, we could say "all mods should restrict speech more" (if that's what you want). But in doing so we don't need more mods to accomplish that goal. So I think what I'm currently seeing is a discrepency between what you actually want, and what you are proposing would fix what you see as lacking.


Exactly. We dont *need* more Mods, but the ones we have arent really doing it. So if they start taking on the job of running a 500+ active forum community by themselves and do it successfully, by all means, im great with that.

The other secondary proposal that I am saying, which I'll admit wasnt directly put across, is that when a Mod goes into a time when they need to be busier, they should resign themself. For the betterment of the community. And, hell, they can always come back.

I mean, if its about the status of being a Mod even when they are MIA, as far as I'm concerned, being an inactive (for a long-ass time) Mod isnt boosting their "status" at all, its lowering it.

As for game Mods, if that is something you wish to discuss, please AIM me.

[uniquinous]

no no, you're still missing what I'm saying. Everytime I refer to "we don't need more mods" I specifically mean "we don't need more active mods". We don't. We just don't. Again, name a single time where mod coverage was so low we were hurting. That one time, which was specifically targeted (not normal foruming), and it was taken care of the next morning (within 12 hours), which is a pretty good response time for an online community of 500+.

[meat.eater]

I dont believe individual events have to happen to prove mod shortage. I dont believe I need to use individual events to prove anything (even though I have shown some). I do believe the overall feel of the community is what is lacking (this is shown by the early statistice of the poll, i believe) - there are plenty of times when a forum mod isnt on, but nothing happens. The problem is that a forum mod isnt on. Not that they didnt solve the problem (that may or may not have happened).

I understand you mean active mods, Uniquin, I just, frankly, disagree. Not much else I can say.

[uniquinous]

Then we're at an impass. No matter how many mods you have, you will always be able to target specific times when every mod is asleep or indisposed. We can triple the numbers and I can assure you a planned, targetted attack will still get through. Increasing numbers won't help that. Your one example doesn't really back your point. Wanting certain threads in the noob board doesn't back your point, nor does accepted content arguments.

I do believe the overall feel of the community is what is lacking - there are plenty of times when a forum mod isnt on, but nothing happens. The problem is that a forum mod isnt on.
I don't understand this. Are you saying a mod should be the one shaping the community to make it less lacking or more entertaining or something?

[meat.eater]

I am saying the presence of a Mod is necessary. Nearly at all busy hours. In teh game Mods case, nearly all hours on nearly all servers. For game Mods, I have less of an idea if that is happening. - but i know it is happening more so. For forum mods, its not happening.

But wait, you've really strayed me from my original point. Which is: "get rid of inactive mods." They are doing nothign to help, and their positions can be filled with peopel who *can* help. And yes, that woul dbetter then community, and it has the potential to be so bettered, so why not?

[uniquinous]

If your goal is to help this community, then removing inactive mods from their status doesn't meet that goal whatsoever. So for the time being, since it doesn't hurt, we might as well leave that subject alone (especially since it doesn't fool anyone that they aren't actually around).

As far as the first point in your last post:
I disagree - forum mods need not be on at all busy hours. That is what a chatroom mod does. The forum runs on a much much slower timescale, and you will find this to be true for any larger forum. Our current coverage is not unusual. Have you seen any 8 hour period where problems couldn't be dealt with? No - not even for the severe targeted spam thread case. 8 hours and all problems are resolved, and that's usual, and ok. If you disagree, we are at an impass.

[meat.eater]

Then all I need say right now is I, and 27 other people disagree with you. Which is fine. That doesnt make us right.

But, there is no sense in continuing the discussion.

[uniquinous]

and the question is: which 27? You'll find many of the more experienced members, and perhaps a bit more credible forum mods of other major sites, tend to think it's perfectly fine.

I think what you are seeing is people leaving, and no one replacing them. You feel the lack, despite the fact that there really isn't any. If we started with 2 mods per subforum, I doubt this thread would exist. It's really just the perception, as far as I can see.

EDIT: see http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showpost.php?p=791268&postcount=4 for details.

[meat.eater]

Please dont tell me what I am thinking. Also, please dont link me back to a post I already read. The 27 refferred to the poll, you know that, and if you're going to label them all as noobs, thats you're choice.

I have seen how the forum Mods have all worked together and cracked down, I dont know if you have. So yes, It is perception. But there is nothing wrong with knowing the potential amount of work to get done, and applying that to what work is currently getting done.

Would you replace an employee doing absolutely nothing with someone who will do work? Yes. Of course. Regardless of how well the other employee's are doing on their own. And if you dont replace him, to maximize your work capacity, you at least fire him, because there is no reason to be there. We have dead weight in the mod section, the leaders of the forums are carrying dead weight, and thats not acceptable in my mind, nor in those 27 other 'nubs' minds.

Theoretically, it is possible you your way to not be the right way, also.

[uniquinous]

But this isn't a company - allowing for mod dead weight doesn't negatively affect this game in any regard whatsoever. We are neither losing money on paychecks to them, nor decieving anyone. Anyone on this forum who even cares to read this thread knows the current mod situation. Again, as Mega and several others have stated: you're making claim against something which in no way inhibits this forum. If you want to talk about getting new mods talk about that - but please drop the point of removing the old ones already, as that's clearly not going to happen based on the points you've made.

I've not called anyone noob, I've simply stated that the people who happen to be speaking out against your points are ones with a lot more experience in online communities. I mod the forums of two major academic institutions, Mega has seen his fair share, so has the ever so bluntly realistic Jeffery. That doesn't mean you're a noob, it just means we have a bit more experience in this sort of thing.

There's no reason we need 6 forum mods to do the job of 2 or 3 - that's ridiculous. You still have no possibly way of ascertaining the true activity of our current forum mods, and as such your claim of them not being around enough is invalid. Aside from one true claim which came as a result of specific malicious targeting of these forums (which would have happened regardless of mod number), you have yet to establish good reason for increasing these numbers.

If any of the forum mods were to come on here and say "yeah, we have been a bit overloaded", then I'd rescind my entire counterargument. Until that time, or until you can point to several prominent and blatant forum abuse instances that went unchecked for prolonged periods of time, any claim on this subject is completely baseless.





On a personal note: I get the feeling you are getting upset at this recent dialogue. I'm just straight forward, and attacking your ideas, not you as a person. So yes, I'm bashing down something you feel is right, but don't be personally offended by that in any way.

[meat.eater]

I dont understand why, to you, something has to be dreadfully wrong in order to improve it. I am just stating things can be improved. Not saying we need to fix a bad thing.

Why should we keep someone who obviously doesnt care about the community in the role of a moderator, when someone else who does care and could get things done could replace them? It wont hurt anything. All it does is help.

[Jeffery]

Maybe it's because your breathe smells like shit?

[inked]

I was the second person to vote for "Yes. I agree.". Although, I do not agree completely for what meat.water has been saying.

Here is my stance:

The community does not need new forum moderators, however it does need many more in-game moderators. The game is a business and if Gold account customers complain about cyberers and spammers like they have, then the game needs to add more protection as they have in the past. There are more and more cybers and spammers everyday with different ways to do what they do and get away with it. The game does not lose money by appointing new volunteer in-game moderators, in fact they may gain money because potential customers may feel the atmosphere in-game is controlled, maintained and safe. Many of our current in-game moderators are on at the same time, I think the game should appoint in-game moderators from different time-zones to diversify and have more protection at different times. I personally am from California and play late after-noon to late-night. I near never see a moderator on at those times, and guess what? Spamming and cybering continues at those hours. In-fact I would say more cyberers log on at night than any other time during the day. I have been a supporting member of this community since early 2004, and I would be honored to help keep it a clean place for fun and games. I know I am not alone and I know that the service is needed.

[Hoolwath]

I have sent a PM to Sergiy about a month ago, right after the 40 spam threads were created that we lack active forum-mods.

I suggested him to make some of the game-mods forum-mods too. Max said he discussed it with him and other mods. Max said forums do not need new mods.

Sergiy remodded Aro as a response.

EDIT: Just checked, I have already deleted the PM.

[Jeffery]

I have been a supporting member of this community since early 2004, and I would be honored to help keep it a clean place for fun and games. I know I am not alone and I know that the service is needed.


THIS is exactly why discussions about more mods are useless.

People start to talk, then hint, then outright ask if they can be mods. "ooo pick me pick me, i'm da bestest!"

It's sickening because the very ones to be begging to be mods are always the very last ones that ever should be.

[meat.eater]

The example I will use is that say Glam, Max and Aro are movers, carrying a couch. They can carry it them, just the three of them, but for every person who cmes to help them carry, it becomes easier. But, because Glam and Max and Aro are also busy, decent human beings, they dont spend all their time carrying the couch, leaving the other 2, or 1 left to carry it alone, which they cant do. Their fellow movers, Burning and Snarr, decide not to come help move the couch. Ever. Even though they should be.

So get some new movers, so when the slope does get slippery, there are more to keep traction, and even if some arent around, there still may be enough to carry it, before the fellow movers get back to help. As of now, Glam, Max and Aro have no help, and although they can carry this sofa alone, it would be easier on them, and easier on TAO if more people were to pitch in, therefore providing that the job is done better, in all aspects.

And I dont see how you can say there is something wrong with that.

As for game-mods, I dont think we need more then the original number, being 6, but I think those 6 slots should be filled completely. As LT said, basically, "Its not that I'm not around, Im around a lot, just under the radar." As a game mod... being 'under the radar' doesnt do anyone any good.

EDIT: And because how I phrased this (being that it is much more clear to the point I was trying to make), I will put it in my first post.

[Aro23r]

What if someone sits on the sofa?

[meat.eater]

What a great example! Maybe its not that the community is on that slipper slope and that extra mod presence is needed, maybe its one loose cannon (*coughSirVivalcough*) who jumped onto the sofa, therefore requiring another Mod to come help Glamdring, Max and Aro (or maybe to just help the only one doing anything about it) be able to carry the sofa, along with the new burden, while still being just.

I have talked to so many closer bud's from TAO, many being Mods. I know its not easy. I dont know what its like, but I know its not easy. I dont see how trying to make it easier, and, in the process, getting more things done is a bad thing.

[Jeffery]

As LT said, basically, "Its not that I'm not around, Im around a lot, just under the radar." As a game mod... being 'under the radar' doesnt do anyone any good.


It DOES do good. Because then people become aware that a mod might be on the server, just not visible. This means people will be less likely to act up just because a mod is not visible at the time.
"Undercover mods" can actually do several things. 1) enforce rules as they are as situations arise and 2) make people think twice ALL the time, becasue you don;t know if a mod is there watching

Edit: It also allows a mod to kick people as needed, without getting the lobby spammed with "why do you speak in green, can I be a mod, will you have my baby" crap.

[meat.eater]

From my standpoint, I find it easier to just be on the Mod account, and prevent it from happening by the presence of that white account. I dont think its fair to wait for someone to do wrong, when by your presence, you may prevent the wrong all together.

As for you're second point, Im sure that has worked in some cases, but the vast majority of cyber freaks dont even play the game, they just log on once, look for action, and be done with it. And from the sheer volume of poor behavior and decisions, I dont think it makes an incredible amount of difference, though I suppose difference can be made.

However, thats not the main point as to what I am saying. Most game mods have beendoing fabulously, and had the numbers with it, and as a reflection of that, I havent been bringing it up to the extent as the others.

[Jeffery]

You must not have even read Allstars reasons for quitting, let alone actually beeen in the lobby when a mod is online.
When a Mod is online, there is MORE spam than when they are not there. Between idiots asking them the same 4 questions for hours on end,you have those who make accounts they KNOW mods can not boot, and spam with them.

Having a mod online MAY prevent easy boosters. It can cut down on the average cybernut. But the spam itself only increases with them there, with everytone clamoring for thier attention, than when they are not in the lobby.

By staying off account until the commands are needed, they enforce EVERYTHING you have asked for, and have not increased the lobby spam a bit.
Cheaters still get booted, spammers still get booted, Cyberers still get booted. And all without the presense of the white account.

[uniquinous]

Jeffery is right - a seen mod is one that atracts spammer attention, while decreasing cyber attention. Sitting on alternate accounts, or going unnoticed in some other manner can be very helpful at times. I'm not going to get further into adding in-game mods until the forum topic is discussed further.

Now let me use your couch example:
Suppose 30 people were helping move that couch. Adding another person to bear the weight doesn't really help as
1) It very insignificantly removes the burden from the combined efforts of the others, and
2) The added person can only really get in the way.

Now, we aren't talking about 30 people here, and we aren't talking about a couch either - we're talking about an online forum. So yes, adding more mods would very slightly alleviate the pressure from the others, like the couch example, but only really serve to muck things up and get in the way. Personally, I'm not willing to see a response time of 3 hours instead of 4 at the expense of adding another mod.

You admit that things aren't bad, and I say "if it aint broke, dont fix it". You make it sound like we are negligently waiting for something bad to happen, when that's not the case at all, and nothing significantly bad has happened in months despite the sustained status quo. Again I would strongly recomend you go to any other online community centered around a forum. Forum mods are not people who need respond to every mishap in real time. If a blade of grass on your front lawn gets too long you don't clip it right away, you landscape once a week to make sure it is roughly maintained and nice looking. The same goes true here - they ensure there isn't prolonged abuse, mishap, etc. But if there are a few spam threads for 8 hours, it doesn't really harm.... anyone.

And this gets to the heart of the matter. You see the forums as something that needs to be properly maintained on a much faster timescale. Why? Boosting, cyber, spamming etc in game need be dealt with right away else they won't be dealt with at all. The same is not true here. Spam here doesn't hurt anyone, it's just a minor inconvenience, at best.

[Serge]

What if someone sits on the sofa?
Good point, too bad meat missed it.

meat, Aro is asking you what if one of the movers jumps on the sofa, meaning, what if the extra mods get in the way.