Existing Units Alteration Discussion Thread

[Ciompi]

Since the beginning of CAU, suggestions that had to do with adjusting existing units have been almost universally frowned upon. After some recent discussion though, the idea is starting to be thought of with more credibility. Hopefully, from now on suggestions to adjust existing units will be addressed based on the quality of the suggestion, as opposed to the former system of merely flaming the suggester and declaring that this forum has no room for that kind of discussion.

I recommend reading the following:
Serge's Create-A-Unit Forum: Guidelines (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12079&page=7)
This link will take you to the seventh page, where the topic came up again.

Also this thread, which got the whole controversy started again initially:
Berserker Suggestion by $20 Gold Coin (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26472)

So let this be a thread with some general discussion about each unit. I think any extreme suggestions, such as $20 Gold Coin's, probably warrant a new thread. But more minor suggestions such as stat changes could simply be addressed here. Perhaps after some discussion over an especially interesting suggestion there could be a poll where people could vote on it. We'll see.

To start things off, I'd like to address the issue of the Poison Wisp. Many have complained about the reduction in its HP from 34 to 30. I personally approve of the change because it forces the wisp off the front row, making it a more tactical unit instead of a noob-rushing and cleric-killing unit.

Thanks to Mith for helping me get this going.

[Ciompi]

Issues worth addressing:

Assassin
Increase her HP?
In favor:
Cuathon (suggester)
Ciompi
Shatterstar
Globular
Serge
Match Strike
Executioner
Opposed:
Anarchy_United
Monkus
The Coder
Hellblazer
Geeky_Bastard
Cross Punisher
Forest_Archer

Dark Magic Witch
Increase armor by 2? (Note that the only consequential difference this would make would be to whether or not a dragon could kill a witch in one shot)
In favor:
Cuathon
Hellblazer
Executioner
Opposed:
Monkus
Match Strike
Ciompi (suggester)
Geeky_Bastard
Cross Punisher
Anarchy_United
Forest_Archer

Berserker
Increase movement to four?
In favor:
Ciompi (suggester)
Anarchy_United
Geeky_Bastard
Forest_Archer
Opposed:
Monkus
Serge
The Coder
Shatterstar
Hellblazer
Executioner
Cross Punisher
Forest_Archer
Cuathon

Beast Rider
Increase blocking by 10-20%?
In favor:
Anarchy_United (suggester)
Ciompi
Cuathon
Monkus
TAO_Chaos1
Serge
The Coder
Shatterstar
Match Strike
Executioner
Geeky_Bastard
Cross Punisher
Opposed:
Hellblazer
Forest_Archer

Barrier Ward
Increase armor to 10?
In favor:
Globular (suggester)
Hellblazer
Match Strike
TAO_Chaos1
Executioner
Opposed:
Ciompi
The Coder
Monkus
I BEAT MATHEWS
Geeky_Bastard
Cross Punisher
Anarchy_United
Forest_Archer

Pyromancer
Currently none.

Knight
Currently none.

Dragonspeaker Mage
Currently none.

Scout
Currently none.

Cleric
Currently none.

Lightning Ward
Currently none.

Enchantress
Currently none.

Golem Ambusher
Currently none.

Mud Golem
Currently none.

Frost Golem
Currently none.

Stone Golem
Currently none.

Dragon Tyrant
Currently none.

Poison Wisp
Currently none.

Furgon
Currently none.

Rejected Suggestions (at least eight votes and at least 75% opposing votes)
Pyromancer
Increase attack power (suggested by Cuathon)
Dark Magic Witch
Increase HP (suggested by Cuathon)
Mud Golem
Make muddy strike hit for 15 damage to units one space away but only defocus and break shrubs two and three spaces away (suggested by Ciompi)
Dragonspeaker Mage
Remove from the game (suggested by Cuathon)
Barrier Ward
Increase recovery (suggested by Globular)
Furgon
Reduce blocking to 40% (suggested by Elemental)
Lightning Ward
Increase horizontal and vertical attack range by one (suggested by Executioner)

[Executioner]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ciompi again.

[Ciompi]

Moving a discussion from the guidelines thread to this thread. I posted the following:
i disagree with the GA change(the main player requested change) I completely agree with that change, though I do think it weakened it a little too much. Now it's practically worthless.
and i have no idea what Seed was on when he thought the wisp needed a change.

This, in my opinion, was a brilliant change that I hadn't thought of. By lowering the HP to 30, it keeps wisps off the front row and makes the tactical units instead of noob rushing units. I say this with no arrogance, being a pretty mediocre rusher myself and still having a great deal of success by throwing GA, wisp, mud and scouts at opposing forms before the changes.
for the pyro i'd say have it do 20 to the center and 16 to the other spots and remove the DSM. (i really think the DSM was a bad solution to the pyro problem. the pyro is still worthless without it in the gold game, and fairly weak in the grey game.

This would be worth discussion but I think that would affect grey games too much. Grey games are just about perfect the way they are in my opinion and the pyro would be too overpowered then. I could see it being useful to up its strength to maybe 16 or 17 to make it a little more effective but your suggestion would make it dominant in grey games.
i'd also give the witch 29 health. the fact that dragons trash it makes it worthless without ten witches or a bunch of other mages.

This would also have a dramatic effect on grey games. By giving it 29 health, a witch could survive a scout+knight with a heal and I don't like that idea. The witch needs to be vulnerable for it to be a balanced unit in the grey game I think.
the assassin would get maybe 39 health.

Why?

Then Cuathon responded with the following:
i had considered that part(about the witch thing), the fact that gold and grey are so different is an enormous problem to altering units. i cant think of any way to change the witch thing without setting off ripples that would change the whole game. but i dislike the uselessness of pyros, assassins and witches in gold. it limits the forms alot.

as for the pyro, it is still too weak even in grey,a dn it especially sucks in gold. perhaps 18 and 16 would be better but it does need some help.

the assassin sucks in gold and is only limitedly good in grey. if not surviving two knight hits and least 37 health is needed. i think it should be able to survive a GA knight or scout knight attack. unless the assassin is in significant danger it cant really even use its multiple targeting to good effect.

actually now that i think more the wisp change it wasnt so effective and damaging as i thought. in any form where its not armored, (which prevents instant l-ward kill,) it cant betaken down too easily. not even knight scout can take it with heal.

NOTE: you are actually right about the GA and wisp changes. i removed those thoughts from my post.
Now that we have some context, I'll start working on a response to Cuathon.

[Ciompi]

i had considered that part(about the witch thing), the fact that gold and grey are so different is an enormous problem to altering units. i cant think of any way to change the witch thing without setting off ripples that would change the whole game. but i dislike the uselessness of pyros, assassins and witches in gold. it limits the forms alot.
This is a very good point that I think will dramatically affect the future of this thread. My personal opinion is that some units are necessary to make the grey game great but unfortunately don’t help much in the gold game. It’s unfortunate but I don’t think it’s worth compromising the grey game. I think it’d be better to simply add more units to the gold game, or maybe upgraded versions that only golds had (the latter is not an idea I’m fond of but is worth mentioning).
as for the pyro, it is still too weak even in grey,a dn it especially sucks in gold. perhaps 18 and 16 would be better but it does need some help.
I have an objection to the pyro in grey, though it’s a little unrelated to your point.

Mithrandir created a very effective and innovative no drop grey form that I fear could be very, very bad for the grey game as a whole. One of the most frustrating things about gold games is form advantage (especially before the changes). I believe if I am better than my opponent, I should have a reasonable chance to beat him no matter what his form is, as long as mine is a good one, such as Bottle’s famous no drop grey form. However, Mith’s form could add an element of luck to grey games that they didn’t have before. Here’s the form:
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/1108/pyroformation2ev.jpg
You can move the barrier ward around but this is the basic idea. I used it against Wolfman in our rematch in the X-useme’s big simple tourney (after wolf and I drew). I got opp sides and got crushed. However, if I had gotten same sides I’m confident I would have won because after a little practice, I don’t think this form can lose to a same side grey turtle unless it has at least one pyro or the player with Mith’s form plays really badly. Because pyros are so deadly in same side and usually so ineffective in opp sides (compared to assassin and chanty at least) that as they currently are, the pyros could become the golem ambusher of the grey game, making same side and first (or second) turn determine who wins. So I think something needs to change to make the pyro more effective in opp sides and less in same sides, to avoid this wrecking the beautiful grey game.
the assassin sucks in gold and is only limitedly good in grey. if not surviving two knight hits and least 37 health is needed. i think it should be able to survive a GA knight or scout knight attack. unless the assassin is in significant danger it cant really even use its multiple targeting to good effect.
Not a bad argument. I think 39 would be a great number for it.

[Cuathon]

actually i think 2 knight hits should still beat it. so 37 might be better.

miths form is simple enugh to beat. pyro plus pyros or witch or scout takes care of at least one pyro. especially, with my update.

also the gold game is the paying one, if it can be made better grey will have to suffer. there might be a work around for the witch thing. i really hope so.

[MicSpor]

Good Job man

[Ciompi]

miths form is simple enugh to beat. pyro plus pyros or witch or scout takes care of at least one pyro. especially, with my update.
I don't think you understand. Mith's form loses easily enough to a strong player in a same side game WITH a pyro. But against a dropless corner in the same side that has no pyros, it isn't so simple to beat if the person using Mith's form knows how to use it. There's just too much firepower. It's possible I suppose but it would be a very difficult uphill battle. Apparently it can be used effectively opp side (Mith said he beat Bottle, Hoolwath and Ricardu among others opp side using this form) but I haven't been able to figure it out, as my loss to wolfman proved.

also the gold game is the paying one, if it can be made better grey will have to suffer. there might be a work around for the witch thing. i really hope so.
I would suggest the dragon tyrant's power being reduced to 27 but that would really affect its effectiveness against scouts. It's a difficult problem. However, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that witches aren't very good in gold games because they're just bombing units anyway and I'm not really in favor of strengthening bombs too much.

[Cuathon]

I don't think you understand. Mith's form loses easily enough to a strong player in a same side game WITH a pyro. But against a dropless corner in the same side that has no pyros, it isn't so simple to beat if the person using Mith's form knows how to use it. There's just too much firepower. It's possible I suppose but it would be a very difficult uphill battle. Apparently it can be used effectively opp side (Mith said he beat Bottle, Hoolwath and Ricardu among others opp side using this form) but I haven't been able to figure it out, as my loss to wolfman proved.

I would suggest the dragon tyrant's power being reduced to 27 but that would really affect its effectiveness against scouts. It's a difficult problem. However, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that witches aren't very good in gold games because they're just bombing units anyway and I'm not really in favor of strengthening bombs too much.

again golds range really gets in the way of its tactical ability. drops are
stupid too. either they should be removed and an extra cleric, witch, chanty, assassin added, or there should be a limit to the number of drops of the same kind one can get. witches should not need to be bomb units. a better witch that one cant have 3 or more of is way more fun than a ten witch bomb.

[Ciompi]

Second post updated to make things a bit more organized. I don't expect to update it much though. Actually I don't expect to hang around here much longer but it's a start.

[Kyir]

mess with one thing enough it's change everything else, raise one things life and everything else dosn't have enough, raise somthings power and some things don't have enough life, changing units changes the game for the better occasionaly, but useally for the worse.

[shatterstar]

my ideas on alterations:

i like the idea of changing up the assasin's HP. right now im seeing way too many greys carrying as assasin with the express purpose of building a assasin bomb. with the stats as they are right now, its just a bit too easy. 2 scout hits, knight+pyro,witch+pyro and thats all without factoring healign and effect gold units can have. 37 HP off the top of my head seems like a better level that migt make making a bomb that much harder.


the witch i dont think should be chnaged at all. all the mages lend themselves ot bombing and the witch is the biggest-hitting dropped mage. the DT is the only deterrent to a witch bomb. i dont have anything against bombs per se and they are fun to play and face, but 29 HP would give a 5-witch bomb a dangerous edge. normally 2 out of the 5 would fall to a LW+DT,whcih would stop if this came in. the proposal to limit the total no. o each unit in the garage is an idea worth condisering.

i'll mull over the pyro (whch i like) before editing

[Ciompi]

mess with one thing enough it's change everything else, raise one things life and everything else dosn't have enough, raise somthings power and some things don't have enough life, changing units changes the game for the better occasionaly, but useally for the worse.
I would consider this to be almost entirely irrelevant. Assume only one or two changes could be made when you make suggestions, similar to how most CAU units are under the assumption that no other CAU unit was added to the game. It makes the most sense that way I think.

I would like to throw out another idea for discussion. I think the berserker, as it is, is underpowered. I don't buy the nonsense about how it's just a turtle unit, I think it ought to be useable and effective in freestyle. There is some suggestion in monkus' perfect form thread about using it in a center form and I think there's potential there. But still, I think it needs to be strengthened somehow.

I think it could use a boost in defense (either HP, armor or blocking) but I think the best improvement to it would be an increase in movement. Make the berserker's movement four so it could more effectively go after enemy scouts and dragons. If this change was made, ranged units would have to be much more careful. By rushing all out, they would be much more exposed to the berserker if it's mobility was increased, which I believe could make a better organized attack more effective than an attack that simply rushed all out.

I also think the game would be better with one scout but as that has been argued about in many other threads, I think that controversy should be ignored for this thread.

Regarding the witch's HP: I'm not good with armor calculations, but if there was some number of armor that could make it so a dragon couldn't kill it in one shot but a knight and scout could still kill it even with a heal, that would solve the problem. Does anyone know if that's possible?

Another suggestion: reduce the mud golem's spread damage. Make it so it still defocuses and breaks shrubs three spaces away but not damage units farther than one space away. The mud golem is simply too nasty in my opinion.

[Kyir]

The beserker is very close to a number of threads, the ambusher was also close, anyone who says no unit will ever be made is delusional, the right one just hasn't been made yet.

The busher thought did screw up the game partially, just like some of the changes would, if you consider what I said irrelevant, then it seems you're also part of the delusional masses.

[Ciompi]

The busher thought did screw up the game partially, just like some of the changes would, if you consider what I said irrelevant, then it seems you're also part of the delusional masses.
You obviously didn't read my post. My point is that we should assume that there were only one or two changes, not a whole slew of them, JUST LIKE when you guys make new CAU units, you don't usually assume your previous units became real.

[Serge]

Whoa, CAU, interesting, what?

[Anarchy_United]

I object to all of the current suggestions, other than teh beserker one. I also propose increasing the best rider's blocking by 10-20%.

[Ciompi]

Whoa, CAU, interesting, what?
Um, can I help you understand anything?
I object to all of the current suggestions, other than teh beserker one. I also propose increasing the best rider's blocking by 10-20%.
Welcome to the conversation Anarchy. I'll edit the second post accordingly.:)

[Serge]

Um, can I help you understand anything?

You good with trigonometry?

Seriously though, I was just expressing my diesbelief that this would be the topic to get people to maintain an interest in TAO for more than the usual few days.

[Ciompi]

You good with trigonometry?
Sorry, can't help you there.

Seriously though, I was just expressing my diesbelief that this would be the topic to get people to maintain an interest in TAO for more than the usual few days.
Well, it's something that has been pretty much ignored throughout the whole history of CAU, at least by credible people. I think it's an interesting one though.

What do you think about the suggestions so far (compiled on the second post)?

[Cuathon]

well i think the increased berz move is silly. it doesnt affect anything. the berz can never be offensive because its too weak.

the beasty blocking: i like this suggestion, maybe put it at 65%.

i dont see why you guys dont like the better witch. well other than the fact that it would suck in grey game.(which is a big factor i suppose. i doubt it would make the gold game bad though.

an altered pyro would not affect grey negatively and it would help cancel the bomb. with no possibility of 27/24 damage pyros bombing ouldnt be nearly as bad. even putting it at 18/16 woud be helping the pyro enormously.

the muddy suggestion is a big no. it provides many important combos.

[Cuathon]

you guys forgot my part of the pyro upgrade related to the DSM, which was to remove the DSM from the game. you should prob put that under the DSM chomp.

[Ciompi]

well i think the increased berz move is silly. it doesnt affect anything. the berz can never be offensive because its too weak.
The point isn't to make it an offensive unit, it's to make it a more effective defensive unit.
the beasty blocking: i like this suggestion, maybe put it at 65%.
i dont see why you guys dont like the better witch. well other than the fact that it would suck in grey game.(which is a big factor i suppose. i doubt it would make the gold game bad though.
I don't want to mess up the grey game that much. The grey game is free but it needs to be good because that causes people to buy gold accounts in the first place.

I would be okay with giving a little armor if it could stop a one hit dragon kill without stopping a knight-scout with heal kill.

an altered pyro would not affect grey negatively and it would help cancel the bomb. with no possibility of 27/24 damage pyros bombing ouldnt be nearly as bad. even putting it at 18/16 woud be helping the pyro enormously.
I need to think about this. I'm leaning towards no, but maybe better defense. That would keep it from being too powerful in same side grey games but could make it more useful in opp side games. I'll think more about this and make a suggestion official.

the muddy suggestion is a big no. it provides many important combos.
That is why I don't like it. It just hurts too much.

[TAO_Chaos1]

GEt rid of the DSM no way! That unit is very helpful in my opinion.

[Ciompi]

GEt rid of the DSM no way! That unit is very helpful in my opinion, but this is create a unit not edit a unit, you should of started this forum in general disscusion:dry:
Read the material I linked to in the first post. Otherwise you have no idea what you're talking about.

[monkus]

Assassin:
A balanced gray unit, strong secondary ability. Its lack of use in the gold game doesn't necessarily warrant a reconsideration; there are just too many melee units out there.
Thumbs Down

Pyro:
Pyro isn't supposed to be a pure damage unit. It's a finisher, an attrition unit, and a focus breaker.
Thumbs Down

DMW:
Absolutely not. Defeats the purpose of a risky attacker with a lot of push.
Thumbs Down

Muddy:
Important combos, important attrition unit.
Thumbs Down

Berzerker:
No. He's not a BR, he's not a wisp. He shouldn't be a fast attacker, and he shouldn't be a very mobile defender. Maybe increase his hp or armor, but that's to be talked about later.
Thumbs Down

Beast Rider:
It's a good unit that dies too quickly.
Thumbs Up

DSM:
An excellent strategic unit. What were you thinking Cua? Sorry man, not happening.
Thumbs Down


On a side note, I disagree Ciompi, GA is certainly not worthless. Try turtling same side as one some time.

[Kyir]

Um, can I help you understand anything?

Welcome to the conversation Anarchy. I'll edit the second post accordingly.:)

I read it, I just didn't understand.

[Ciompi]

Welcome to the discussion monkus. Brief side note, I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your perfect form thread. :)

On a side note, I disagree Ciompi, GA is certainly not worthless. Try turtling same side as one some time.
Same side it is of course useful (although easier to block by moving a unit five spaces in front of the cleric) but with the reduced range it's much more of a risk to use. If you get wrong side it's much harder to make him useful.

I'll adjust the second post accordingly.

[TAO_Chaos1]

I agree with the beast rider updates though, the unit is very useful but if you put it too far out in the feild it dies too quickly.

[globular]

Suggestion:
Barrior ward should have 10 def and 4 turn recovery instead of 3
and I agree with the suggestion that the assassin should have more health
excellent thread ciompi

[Serge]

I'm in favor to giving the assassain more HP, the BR more blocking, I'm against everything else.

Note: I don't play the gold game in long time.

SideNote: My grammar sucks.

Post Script: Maybe give the assassain more HP, less armor?

[Anarchy_United]

The problem with the assasin in the gold game, is that to many people only concentrate on Bomb usage. In gold game, you have so many different damages that can be done to it, so it is really hard to put pressure on an opponent. In grey game, it is very useful, because there is so many combos that get to the bomb stage. Also, the muddy is the best unit for countering bombs.

The assasin is slightly useful stoned, but could be more useful as a Muddy/Wisp/Second Scout. In a rush, they are okay, and in an anti, they are worthless.

[The Coder]

Issues worth addressing:

Assassin
Increase her HP?
In favor:
Cuathon (suggester)
Ciompi
Shatterstar
Opposed:
Anarchy_United
Monkus.

Why amn't I there in? As the red. Its perfect where it is, cause its all calculated perfect for bomb.


Pyromancer
Increase attack power? (linked to DSM suggestion)
In favor:
Cuathon (suggester)
Opposed:
Ciompi
Anarchy_United
Monkus

Yea, as was sed, DSM

Dark Magic Witch[\b]
Increase HP?
In favor:
Cuathon (suggester)
Opposed:
Ciompi
Shatterstar
Anarchy_United
Monkus

Its good where it is.

[b]Mud Golem
Make muddy strike hit for 15 damage to units one space away but only defocus and break shrubs two and three spaces away?
In favor:
Ciompi (suggester)
Opposed:
Anarchy_United
Cuathon
Monkus.

Opposed again I be

Berserker
Increase movement to four?
In favor:
Ciompi (suggester)
Anarchy_United
Opposed:
Monkus

No. Ya know why? Cause then you get a gauranteed back it in cases. and then you garentee stunnage.

Beast Rider
Increase blocking by 10-20%?
In favor:
Anarchy_United (suggester)
Ciompi
Cuathon
Monkus
Opposed:
Currently none.

Ok. So you win this round!!!

Dragonspeaker Mage
Remove from the game? (linked to Pyromancer)
In favor:
Cuathon (suggester)
Opposed:
Monkus


No.

Looking back, I seem to side a lot with monkus.

[Ciompi]

First post is now up to date.

[The Coder]

Barrier Ward
Increase armor to 10?
In favor:
Globular (suggester)
Opposed:
Ciompi

Increase recovery?
In favor:
Globular (suggester)
Opposed:
Ciompi


BW is great how it is. And none of the focus things... Damn stone golem exception. Has armor.

My suggestion- make golem ambusher a rapper. edit: or ghetto.... Ghetto ambusher... no, that didn't come out right. edit 2: Im gonna make a picture of ghetto GA... edit.. what comes after 2? : Im a failure at that.

[shatterstar]

Issues worth addressing:

Mud Golem
Make muddy strike hit for 15 damage to units one space away but only defocus and break shrubs two and three spaces away?
In favor:
Ciompi (suggester)
Opposed:
Anarchy_United
Cuathon
Monkus
Serge
The Coder


opposed. the 10 and 5 damage at range is nothing that isnt healed up easily enough and allows a lot of combos if ignored, i think its balanced. and i like the muddie. (although it is uglier than howard sterns arse.)


Berserker
Increase movement to four?
In favor:
Ciompi (suggester)
Anarchy_United
Opposed:
Monkus
Serge
The Coder


opposed. same reason as coder. 4 movement would give it guaranteed hit/stun.


Beast Rider
Increase blocking by 10-20%?
In favor:
Anarchy_United (suggester)
Ciompi
Cuathon
Monkus
TAO_Chaos1
Serge
The Coder
Opposed:
Currently none.


yes. yup. aye. si. oui. hai. ja.


Barrier Ward
Increase armor to 10?
In favor:
Globular (suggester)
Opposed:
Ciompi
The Coder


ambivalent. dont really waste time killing 1. just plant something near ot defocus if needed.


Increase recovery?
In favor:
Globular (suggester)
Opposed:
Ciompi
The Coder


opposed. like it as it is. nicely mated ot chanty recovery.


Furgon
Currently none.

perhaps make it little less ungainly while moving? :)

[Hellblazer]

My opinions are as follows.

Assassin
Increase her HP?
It's not necessary. Honestly, she can survive pretty well with her ability to get behind units fairly easily and all. 35 has been plenty thus far.
Opposed

Pyromancer
Increase attack power? (linked to DSM suggestion)
Nope. We already have that featuture tied in with the DSM, as you've just pointed out. An addition to the core power makes them too powerful.
Opposed

Dark Magic Witch
Increase HP?
Hey, if she dies, she dies. Maybe making her able to have 1 health left after a critical blow is an OK idea, but not one I'm all too thrilled about.
Opposed

Mud Golem
Make muddy strike hit for 15 damage to units one space away but only defocus and break shrubs two and three spaces away?
Not a bad idea. Go for it.
In Favor Of

Berserker
Increase movement to four?
I see no reason to increase the movement of the offensive frosty.
Opposed

Beast Rider
Increase blocking by 10-20%?
Again, not necessary. You can make some tactical use of your SG with this unit on the board.
Opposed

Dragonspeaker Mage
Remove from the game? (linked to Pyromancer)
No. I think this unit balances out power between the strongest unti and a few weaker ones.
Opposed

Barrier Ward
Increase armor to 10?
It couldn't hurt.
In Favor Of

Increase recovery?
To 3 at tops.
In Favor Of

I will make my final two points, this being my only post in this thread.
1) I don't forsee any of this being put into effect after seeing the minimal-ness(sp, I know) of upgrades to the game.
2) Units are made for a reason....besides the GA.....and are obviously balanced to even be put into the game. Therefor most of these suggestions are proposterous.

I bid you all ado.

[Ciompi]

I just spent like twenty minutes on a post and I lost it. I am very angry right now and I don't have the patience to do it all again so I'll give the reader's digest version.

If the witch were to be given two armor, it would prevent the dragon killing it in one turn. I did all the calculations for this and wrote it down in the previous version of this post. I'm not going to all that again. To do the calculation, simply calculate attack power times 100 minus armor and round it to the nearest whole number (rounding up if the number is something .5).

The only other changes this would bring to the game are extremely minor. One is if a dsm charged by dragon with one or zero pyros on the field attacked the witch. The witch would be left with 2 HP instead of 1 HP. Two is if the witch was stoned and attacked by either another witch, lone dsm, dragon or LW. Both, I believe, are completely inconsequential.

If you want to make a change that prevents the dragon from killing the witch in one shot while affecting as little else as possible, this is it. I'm not sure it's good for the witch to survive a shot from a dragon but I'll put this on the second post so we can at least discuss that issue now without having to worry about the other ramifications. This change would not change grey vs grey games at all and it would change gold vs gold in only extremely, extremely minor ways (other than the intended change of course).

[monkus]

Witch situation:
I'm against it. I think the dragon shot on the witch is important in the gray-vs-gold game, especially considering most golds don't guard their clerics in the same way grays do. Also, dragons should be able to rock bombs.

I'm against both BW changes. It's fine the way it is; fragile but effective.

[EleMENTAL]

I suggest the furgons blocking be reduced by 10%.

[Ciompi]

I suggest the furgons blocking be reduced by 10%.
I added it, though I strongly oppose it. I think the furgon's defense should be increased.

[Match Strike]

Put me down as opposed to the changes in furgy and witch, but in favor of those to barrier ward, beast rider, and assassin.

[Hellblazer]

Oh, well. I might as well keep up-to-speed on the unit changes.;)

Furgon's blocking decrease:
The Furgon is perfect. I see no reason to alter it any more than it has been altered.
Opposed

DMW's armor increase:
Now, that, after reading through Ciompi's post, might actually make sense. It'd just be a bit more durable since it's a pretty good ranged unit at times.
In Favor Of

[Cuathon]

yeah im in favor of witch armor.

[Ciompi]

Well ironically, I'm going to have to oppose the witch armor thing, even though it was kind of my idea. I don't think it would be good for gold games to let witches become more powerful. It would be used too much by noobs.

The one thing that makes me think otherwise though is that it would really discourage frontline rushes and force something a bit more creative.

[TAO_Chaos1]

Increasing the BW armour would be awesome, that is the most usefule grey peice in my opnion besides the scout.

[Ciompi]

Increasing the BW armour would be awesome, that is the most usefule grey peice in my opnion besides the scout.
I think it's good for the grey game for the bw to be somewhat vulnerable. It makes the game more tactical and it doesn't need to be THAT well protected because it has 100% blocking on all sides. I think it should be reasonably possible to kill it and I think it's the perfect balance as it is now. And increasing barrier ward recovery is just stupid in my opinion.

I'll add your vote.

[ducky doodoo]

i say the clerk needs a special :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Ciompi]

i say the clerk needs a special :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
There is no clerk unit in this game.

If you want to add a special, I suggest starting your own thread for the idea. I think this thread is good for minor adjustments in stats but I don't think this should be the only thread that can be used for addressing unit changes. It makes sense to me that more major changes, such as special abilities, should have their own threads.

[I BEAT MATHEWS]

I think the barrier ward is good as it is. It shouldn't have that much health, I believe that it should die after 1 scout and 1 pyro attack.

[Executioner]

Assassin
Increase her HP?
Yes

Pyromancer
Increase attack power? (linked to DSM suggestion)
Yes

Dark Magic Witch
Increase HP?
No

Increase armor by 2? (Note that the only consequential difference this would make would be to whether or not a dragon could kill a witch in one shot)
Yes

Mud Golem
Make muddy strike hit for 15 damage to units one space away but only defocus and break shrubs two and three spaces away?
Yes

Berserker
Increase movement to four?
No

Beast Rider
Increase blocking by 10-20%?
Yes

Dragonspeaker Mage
Remove from the game? (linked to Pyromancer)
Yes

Barrier Ward
Increase armor to 10?
Yes

Increase recovery?
No

Furgon
Reduce blocking to 40%?
No

Lightning Ward
I think somethings needs doing to the LW. It is much less frequently usesd than it used to be and is easily killed by a few mages. My suggestion for it is to increase its range by an extra one on the horizontal and vertical lines. This will mean mages can still kill it bu they cant do it as safely. Also, will mean using one becomes more than a 1 turn blast and a dissuasion from entering its range for the rest of the game.

[Geeky_Bastard]

Sorry for being late to the discussion but I'll try to catch up. Most of the suggested changes would effect the gray game too much. I would personally like the Assassin special to be removed but that's just me. The Berserker change would be interesting because it is very weak as of now. I think the Berserker needs some armor because it gets pounded or the increased movement would help too because it doesn't even have decent blocking. 25%, only beat in low blocking by the witch. This is a melee unit and needs higher blocking OR some armor OR just something so it's not totally demolished.

Assassin
Increase her HP?
-No

Pyromancer
Increase attack power? (linked to DSM suggestion)
-No

Dark Magic Witch
Increase HP?
-No

Increase armor by 2? (Note that the only consequential difference this would make would be to whether or not a dragon could kill a witch in one shot)
-No

Mud Golem
Make muddy strike hit for 15 damage to units one space away but only defocus and break shrubs two and three spaces away?
-No

Berserker
Increase movement to four?
-Yes

Beast Rider
Increase blocking by 10-20%?
-Yes

Dragonspeaker Mage
Remove from the game? (linked to Pyromancer)
-No

Barrier Ward
Increase armor to 10?
-No

Increase recovery?
-No

Furgon
Reduce blocking to 40%?
-No because the furgon is getting new blocking anyway, or was that just a rumor?

Lightning Ward
-Definitely not

[Cross Punisher]

Haven't been active in a while and didn't have time to read this entire thread so I'm sorry if someone already mentioned this, but this (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12945&highlight=pyromancer) is the best unit alteration I have ever seen.

[Cross Punisher]

Yeah double post but this is why I'm opposed to altering units. When you create a new unit the new unit is the only one on your mind, but when your editing existing units, the second your done with your suggestion for one unit you're already preoccupied with how you can "improve" other units. Every unit does not need to be altered.

I mean how can the very person that suggests that the pyromancer needs a power increase also be the suggester of getting rid of the unit that vastly powers up the pyromancer.

The one unit alteration I would like to see is for the Beast Rider. I think it should either have above 50% blocking or it should be allowed to move aside for friendly units.

[Hellblazer]

LW change:
Just hell no.

[Punishment]

I suggest that we give the wisp back its 34 health so that it can be a more offensive cleric killing unit again as opposed to a turt unit.

[Hellblazer]

I suggest that we give the wisp back its 34 health so that it can be a more offensive cleric killing unit again as opposed to a turt unit.
This is Tactics Arena. Something that favors tactics in a tactical game isn't going to change back.

[Anarchy_United]

Sorry for being late to the discussion but I'll try to catch up. Most of the suggested changes would effect the gray game too much. I would personally like the Assassin special to be removed but that's just me. The Berserker change would be interesting because it is very weak as of now. I think the Berserker needs some armor because it gets pounded or the increased movement would help too because it doesn't even have decent blocking. 25%, only beat in low blocking by the witch. This is a melee unit and needs higher blocking OR some armor OR just something so it's not totally demolished.

Assassin
Increase her HP?
-No

Pyromancer
Increase attack power? (linked to DSM suggestion)
-No

Dark Magic Witch
Increase HP?
-No

Increase armor by 2? (Note that the only consequential difference this would make would be to whether or not a dragon could kill a witch in one shot)
-No

Mud Golem
Make muddy strike hit for 15 damage to units one space away but only defocus and break shrubs two and three spaces away?
-No

Berserker
Increase movement to four?
-Yes

Beast Rider
Increase blocking by 10-20%?
-Yes

Dragonspeaker Mage
Remove from the game? (linked to Pyromancer)
-No

Barrier Ward
Increase armor to 10?
-No

Increase recovery?
-No

Furgon
Reduce blocking to 40%?
-No because the furgon is getting new blocking anyway, or was that just a rumor?

Lightning Ward
-Definitely not
agrees with all the same things, but is to lazy to post

[TAO_Chaos1]

Yeah, hellblazers post is true.

[The Coder]

He isn't adding my suggestion to make GA a rapper :(

Most people here aren't noticing the balance that there is inside the assassin. Changing its health would totally change what you would need to do for the bomb.

[Cuathon]

the bomb is a stupid addition. so im doubly for my suggestion in order to screw the bomb up.

CP are you on drugs? i never thought the DSM was a good unit. I'd much rather have the pyro upgraded. i think some sor tof pyro upgrade would be way better tha the DSM which is an example of a very weak unit with massive power. a pyro with slightly more power is in my opnion much better than adding a DSM which puts it up 12 freaking points.

the DSM doesnt help the pyro, it makes using a pyro alone even more worthless.

BTW, geeky? would you mind having a reason why you voted no?

[Forest_Archer]

I don't think that deleting a unit from the game, as suggested about the DSM, is necessary. I mean... you just can't do it. It's basically part of the contract in signing up for the gold account.

I agree with adding +1 movement range to the Berzerker, but I am pretty against the other unit suggestions.

[Cuathon]

erm what are you talking about forest? make some sense. you mean THEY cant do it? i didnt see such a clause when i signed up. if they create a crappy unit, they should be able to remove it.

one movement for the zerker? hell no! that makes it far too powerful. much easier back shots no melee unit can attack it with out and auto freeze and it would give tyhe zerker much better side hit chances. the zekrer is good as it is, at least, if you know how to use it.

[Forest_Archer]

Sorry, let me clear it up a little. Even though TAO is already a little corrupt, raking in the dough and getting sponsors from companies advertising naked women in diapars on the top of the page, they still guarantee gold accounts getting certain units. They just can't take units away, and besides, Seed spent months making those units. I'd like to see you guys not only design a unit, but actually put it into a game!

And concerning the Berz, maybe we can settle for +1/2 movement ;)

[Cuathon]

they can change those units at any point, as far as what it said back when i signed up. anyway, why cant they take away bad units? also, seed did not spend months making the DSM. at least i doubt it took so long as you are implying.

[xerent]

I'd like to see you guys not only design a unit, but actually put it into a game!

Ok.

All joking aside...

Technically, yes, it is time consuming, but to come up with the original concept and flesh it out BEFORE you impliment it, well, you might argue that might be the most important step. How much time you spend on it depends entirely upon you.

[monkus]

No to both the furgon and LW issues.
Furgon dies too quickly as is, and I don't just say that as a furgon user. 48 hp without armor means a knight kills it in 3 shots regardless of a heal, 3 scout shots kill it (4 with a heal), and other combinations wreck havoc too. Its mediocre blocking is the only thing it has going for it.
LW shouldn't be so powerful. As a deterrent it's strong enough.

[Ciompi]

I'm going to clean up the second post a bit so newcomers to the discussion don't have to read and respond to every single issue. From now on, once an idea has eight votes altogether and 75% or more opposing votes, I'll remove it from the usual place and list it among "rejected suggestions" at the bottom of the post. I think this could promote more discussion on the ideas with more potential.

[Alaric]

I am against every upgrade so far. Infact, I have bean against every unit change ever except the ga.

[Geeky_Bastard]

erm what are you talking about forest? make some sense. you mean THEY cant do it? i didnt see such a clause when i signed up. if they create a crappy unit, they should be able to remove it.

one movement for the zerker? hell no! that makes it far too powerful. much easier back shots no melee unit can attack it with out and auto freeze and it would give tyhe zerker much better side hit chances. the zekrer is good as it is, at least, if you know how to use it.
I didn't think about that. The berserker needs an increase in blocking percent OR some armor. Can we make that the issue instead of the 4 movement because the 4 movement would overpower it.

As for the dsm, it's perfectly fine as it is. It has it's strengths and it's weaknesses. Learn to use his strengths and learn to attack his weaknesses. End of discussion on it, it's not going to get removed from the game so don't be stupid.

[Geeky_Bastard]

Bump

[Cuathon]

i can smash almost anyone with a bomb. (and beat most bombs)

DSM is still stupid though. just because i know bad unit isnt going to go away doent mean i cant wish, after all.

however, your comment does apply to the berserker.