Javelin

[shatterstar]

I couldnt find anything similiar under 'javelin' or 'spear' so here goes:

for this unit i propose a new class of unit: Object.
1. Objects, like wards have 100% blocking when not 'in use'.
2. Objects can be 'picked up' by other friendly units by occupying the same tile as the object. The Object is then deemed to be 'in use' and moves with the using unit. When in use, the object takes the same amount of damage as the using unit. so hit a knight using an object with another knight will deal 17 damage to both knight and object.
3. Objects do not need to be killed to win the game.

I'll add more properties as I think of them.

unit: Javelin (more of a harpoon now)

HP: 38
Type: Objext
Armor: 0/irrelevant
Movement: 0
Range: 3
Power: 20 (LOS)
Blocking: see Object properties above.
Recovery:0

Operation: Normally a javelin just occupies a tile and does nothing. It only blocks LOS and has 100% blocking, just like a ward.
When another damage-dealing or melee unit walks onto the same tile and stops on the same tile as the javelin, it 'picks up' the javelin, that units attack is replaced by the javelin's attack, a 3-range, 20-power LOS blockable attack.

Frost Golem, Enchantress, Cleric, Stone Golem and Poison Wisp can occupy the same tile but are unnafected by the javelin. The frosty can, for example occupy the same tile as the javelin and para' others as always. they will not pick up the javelin at all.

Attack: When a unit picks up the javelin and chooses to attack, the using unit throws the javelin at the targeted unit, doing 20 damage in the same way that a scouts arrow works.


DISMANTLED

javelins new position: if the javelin is used to attack by another unit, it then occupies the same tile as the attacked unit, irrespective of whether the attack was blocked or not.

/DISMANTLED


After attacking, the Javelin returns to the user unit.

A user unit can discard the javelin only by attacking an empty tile.

Enemy units cannot use the javelin, though they can occupy the same tile. (though i cant think of a logical reason why not).


EDITS:
An enemy unit occupying the same tile as the javelin, when attacked will not pass damage on the javelin.
An enemy unit cant even pick up the javelin.

a friendly unit holding the javelin, when attacked, passes the same amount of damage to the javelin

paralyze works normally. both unit and javelin are paralyzed


NOTE: Friendly can move around with the javelin after picking it up.
like i said earlier, the javelin takes the exact same damage as the unit sharing its space.

i tried to keep it simple and cover everything at the same time. lemme know what y'all think.

Just came back to re-invent this a bit and some analysis:

-> Going by the feedback I got, especially from the mighty Walrus ;) I decided to make it into more of a harpoon type unit. (I'm keeping the javelin name for simplicity).
Now, when a unit attacks with the javelin, it does not fall at the attacked tile but returns/reels in to the user unit.

Analysis:
1. The 20 power+3 range offers something for almost every unit on the field. for most its a trafeoff, either dropping a little power for more range or gaining a little power for greater range, for some its a positive on both aspects. i see good use for this unit in chasing down rapidly retreating units and extra couple HP damage that can make a difference.

2. With the new and improved method of letting go of the javelin, i want users to think twice before dropping their muddie on this and charging around. A mud taked a lot of damage and will likewise hurt the javelin, whcih cant survive. Now the javelin stays with the unit until you are ready waste a turn dropping it. It also means provdes some more flexibilty to transfer the javelin from 1 unit to another.

3. By tossing it at an empty tile this can create a useful obstruction instead of just an attack. hail-mary-cleric-save if you will.

4. this would be especially useful in end-game melee by automatically creating a ranged unit out of a knight whcich makes an argument for conserving it till the end and arming up recklessly and getting it damaged.

[uniquinous]

no - if you want to offer a specific attack strength and pattern, you might as well make it a unit. throwing an object across the board is kinda useless if it's behind enemy lines and you can't use it anymore. A scout using it decreases his range. A knight decreases the strength, etc. Sorry, objects just... don't work in this game.

[sub the hendrix]

Yeah, just.. underpowered. Besides that it simply doesn't do much, an enemy could just park something like a dragon on it, with high wait (or better yet, one of their frosties) and it's even more worthless.

I like the idea of an object class though. Like wards. I think we could do with some more contraptions.

[meat.eater]

Why the balls are you posting on your annoying account?

[Hellblazer]

I actually commend this sort of idea. Uniq has a point that I agree with, but very original concept.

[TAO_Chaos1]

Nice but, i dont think they would put an object on the game that can be used as an attack, i mean what if a cleric picked it up, and could you drop it?

[shatterstar]

uniq, thats pretty much the point of the unit. its stats ensure a tradeoff for every unit that chooses to use it. the knight drops to power for 3 gain in range, the scout drops 3 range for a 2 boost in power. assasin is boosted on both. muddie now has to make a choice between a ranged quake and a ranged attack. barring the DT, every unit has soemthing to gain from this.
hurling it into enemy territory with a mud or drag to fetch it is a risk in using this.

i do appreciate the point that its underpowered and this is not a unit that take a spot in the game easily. i've edited it so that it takes no damage when sharing a spot with an opponent unit.

i've also added an edit where para'ing a friendly unit using the javelin para's the javelin, not the unit, and vice-versa for opponent units on the same tile as the unit.

i'd welcome more ideas to make it stronger.

TC1: only way to drop it is to attack with it. units like the cleric, frsoty, chanty wont pick it up. a cleric can share a tile with it and heal as normal.

[Biohazard77]

Original...but no

[Walrus]

i like the general concept of the "objects" but it would be tremendously hard to balance - and you have not managed to balance it in this unit.

The fact that it will generally occupy the same tile as a friendly unit, and replace their existing attack, means that it should be significantly more powerful and more durable than most units (in the case of this unit, these characteristics should be particularly true, as once thrown there is little chane of retrieving the javelin with a friendly unit).
The concept is good, but the balance is poor, basically.

[TAO_Chaos1]

Cool, but you still havent answered my question, when you throw it, do you get another one or do you have to walk up to it again and grab it, if so, can an enemy unit pick it up?:confused:

[shatterstar]

when you throw it, you dont get a new one, you got to fetch it. enemy units cant pick it up or use it. they can put a unit on it and amke you not reach it.

[RAGING INFERNO]

original. but its not really anything great

[shatterstar]

*ka-bump*

I also wanted to add that I have re-invented the unit to make it a little more useful, long lasting and hopefully better than what it started out...

please read the first post again if you will

i feed on feedback...so feeeeed mmeeeeee

[Blight of Spite]

First off I would like to say I don't like this idea, however orginal it may be. Now that I'm good and biased, I'll start off. Why should the object have HP, or better, why should it have HP and not be attackable (unless it's equipped by a unit)? Pick one, seriously. Next, it could be used to block Scout shots (as you mentioned) but your units can also move there and the Cleric isn't boxed in by it if used in a corner.That gives turtlers more of an edge than if they used a ward in the same position. Also, the power isn't balanced at all. You said that there's a tradeoff on some units (e.g. knight & scout) but other units benefit from everything (assassin). Either have everything have a trade off or boost everything, again pick one. I don't understand the paralyzing deal either. I mean, if your unit gets targeted for paralysis while wielding a javelin it doesn't get paralyzed, but an opponent on a javelin square does? The entire square should get paralyzed, regardless of what is there. I'm sure you had good intentions with this unit, but it just won't work with these conditions. If I seem cold and heartless, it's because I just had a fight with my brother. I apologize.

BoS

[shatterstar]

BoS, great reponse. let me respond to each:

1. It has to have HP or it gets overpowered. think about this. a mud golem has 5 range. equip it with a javelin and its got 5 movement + 3 attack range at 20 power. now, if the javelin had no HP and was basically unkillable, then that mud golem would be powered up as long as it was alive. by giving it HP which falls depending on how much damage the wielder takes, the javelin has only a finite life whihc has to be conserved.
so a mud or assasin would really be able to use this well but they take damage a lot and it wont last in their hands. a knight would be able to conserve this better but wont be able to use it as effectively, not to mention the drop in power. 2 may not seem like much, but its crippling in a knight-knight fight.

2.why should it have HP and not be attackable (unless it's equipped by a unit)?

isnt that what the BW is? it has HP but is effectively unattackable by blockable attacks until in focus. same with the Javelin.

3. Units can move to block scout shots, its true but this has 100% blocking when attacked by a scout. this can get important if you are being rushed and other units are at a premium HP wise.
for the cleric, it's not that much of a save in turts, i agree; but think about rushes and other central-cleric forms. even turts which degenerate to a melee in the end. cleric comes under fire. it moves away. now natural defence here is to block approaches to the cleric. drop the javelin on 1 tile and you got a 100% blocking unit protecting 1 approach. its another possible use for the javelin.

4. i should have expanded more on the balance of this unit. some units get a stat tradeoff and thats the point of the unit. do i charge my knight up and attack with 22 power or do i attack from a distance with 2 less power? do i snipe from 5 tiles away or do i get closer and try for a little more damage?
do i drop the damage by 8 for a lot of versatility on tarketable tiles? do i drop the non-LOS attack for a more useful range? these are the questions the knight, scout, berz, and busher will have to ask.

now there are other units that only gain from using the javelin: the mud, assasin, the BR. However, all these units, due to their nature take a lot of damage and rely on movement or staying power or both to survive. equip them with a javelin and you got a lot of power but you are risking throwing away the javelin as it takes as much damage as the user. so if you want to conserve it till the end, thats something to think about.

5. the paralyzing i agree with you, thats something i forgot to discard from its previous incarnation. i fixed that now. now para'ing freezes both javelin and user.

thx for the input. hope i answered well enough.

[Sangro]

I don't really get this.... but it is quite...original and very well thought out just confusing

[shatterstar]

not really. its an object. just stands around with 100% blocking. another unit walks onto it...it picks it up....replaces that units attack with its own. unit discards by attacking empty tile. thats it.

[Blight of Spite]

Unfortunately, I have a few problems with your explanation (don't take it personally, I come in peace :bigsmile:)

There's a problem here. Either the javelin would have no HP and block attacks (overpowered), have HP but block attacks (doesn't make sense), have no HP but not block attacks (better), or it would have HP but take damage instead of blocking (best).

1. When an equipped unit is attacked, both the unit and the javelin should take equal damage.

2. You compared the javelin to a BW, that would be fine, but not when a unit can stand on a javelin. You can't stand on a BW; therefore, they're not the same.

3. I don't understand how a javelin would block any shots instead of losing HP.

4. I guess what I mean is you can't really have one-size-fits-all power with the javelin because it would be unbalanced with how the game is set up, but at the same time a percentage doesn't make much more sense because it's the same javelin for everyone. That's why it doesn't work.

If you can help me understand better, I'll take another look at it.

[shatterstar]

There's a problem here. Either the javelin would have no HP and block attacks (overpowered), have HP but block attacks (doesn't make sense), have no HP but not block attacks (better), or it would have HP but take damage instead of blocking (best).

1. When an equipped unit is attacked, both the unit and the javelin should take equal damage.

2. You compared the javelin to a BW, that would be fine, but not when a unit can stand on a javelin. You can't stand on a BW; therefore, they're not the same.


point 1: umm....yes. thats what it does. it has 100% blocking when standing alone. when in use it takes exactly the same amnt of damage that the user-unit takes.

2: you cant stand on a BW, true. but the standing on a javelin and protecting another unit with a BW are similiar in the sense that both units are now in use, contibuting actively and vulnerable


3. I don't understand how a javelin would block any shots instead of losing HP.


just like a BW, which is fairly good analogy:

BW, when not in use, just stnads around. 100% blocking.
Javelin: when not in use, same.

BW: when in use, goes into focus, protects a unit. becomes vulenerable
Javelin: when in use, carried around by user-unit. modifies range and attack. becomes vulnerable.


4. I guess what I mean is you can't really have one-size-fits-all power with the javelin because it would be unbalanced with how the game is set up, but at the same time a percentage doesn't make much more sense because it's the same javelin for everyone. That's why it doesn't work.


trying to balance it on stats alone with all units will not work. the damage it takes with different units using it helps balance it.

i think you are getting confused over its status and behaviour when in use and when not in use. give it a another comeplete read, then my responses and lemme know if you got more questions.

[Blight of Spite]

just like a BW, which is fairly good analogy:

BW, when not in use, just stnads around. 100% blocking.
Javelin: when not in use, same.

BW: when in use, goes into focus, protects a unit. becomes vulenerable
Javelin: when in use, carried around by user-unit. modifies range and attack. becomes vulnerable.
I disagree, I think it is a bad analogy. The BW goes into focus, the javelin does not. Focus is why the BW can become damaged from physical attacks. The javelin, on the other hand, never goes into focus which puts it into a position where it doesn't have an excuse to block 100% of the time. Why? Because it's the same on the ground as it is in a unit's hands. If it loses HP in someone's hands, it loses HP when it's on the ground.

[shatterstar]

I disagree, I think it is a bad analogy. The BW goes into focus, the javelin does not. Focus is why the BW can become damaged from physical attacks. The javelin, on the other hand, never goes into focus which puts it into a position where it doesn't have an excuse to block 100% of the time. Why? Because it's the same on the ground as it is in a unit's hands. If it loses HP in someone's hands, it loses HP when it's on the ground.


aahh...i get your point now. you cant see a logical reason why it should block when on the ground and yet take damage when in use. well, true it is that it doesnt make much sense, but hey, ceative license and all that. The object class of units is hard to balance and i had to make some not-completely-logical additions in the interest of balance.

making it hp-less and unkillable is overpowered. you could effectively have 3 scouts on the field. just arm up the mudd or BR with this

allowing it to take damage all the time is underpowered. it cant move around on its own and would get crushed unless i gave it huge HP and armor whihc i am loathe to do

taking damage some of the time and tying it to the using unit makes the most sense to me.

[Blight of Spite]

OK now that I understand a bit better-
I don't have anymore problems with this unit. Generally when creating a whole new category of something into an existing world I like things to have no exceptions, but you're right it is your creative license. You have my blessing or something like that.;)

ps I'm thinking of making a teleporting ward, any thoughts? Not sure whether it teleports itself, other units, or both.

[shatterstar]

thx for the support. :)

i made the object class with the intention of making more units like the javelin. however, the 2 other ideas i have are currently overpowered. lets see how it goes.

hmm...a teleporting ward...i'd suggest a search of the forum first cuz im sure someone would have made some teleporter already.

of the top of my head, a teleporting ward would be prone to overpowering. imagine teleporting an armored knight right into a same-side turt. go for it anyway lets see how it comes out. best of luck

[Blight of Spite]

After thinking it over, I can't seem to make the ward balanced and useful at the same time.

(Unrelated) I got an Enchantress drop today! First drop and it was from a very skilled game. It took a long time to finish because my opponent and I kept switching the control of the match.

(battle report)Eventually, it got down to 3 knights + cleric + BW + LW on both sides, but I also had a DMW with a barrier. I put all my knights around my cleric who was in the corner (with the BW beside it). I killed one of his knights, then trapped another in a corner with two of my knights. I tried to send my DMW down the side towards his cleric, but she died. I killed his trapped knight, leaving him with one knight. I rushed his cleric with a knight, then sent another knight and took a hit from the LW. I wanted him to do that, though, so I could destroy the BW and damage his knight severely. At that point he surrendered because his cleric had Wait 2 and his knight was going to die the next turn. The earlier part of the game had my adrenaline pumping though lol the last bit was just me dominating him.