Piece Skill Levels

[Punishment]

Just wondering what level of skill you think it takes to master each piece in the game. By master, I mean use each piece the best as possible. I think that anyone can use the LW or Stone golem as good as anyone else, as soon as they know how to play, whereas furgon I think requires an expert to understand how to use properly.

Just put next to each piece either Beginner, Intermediate, or Expert. Just wondering what everyone else thinks, here is mine :p



Knight Intermediate

Scout Intermediate--Expert

Assassin Intermediate

Cleric Beginner

Pyromancer Beginner

Enchantress Expert

Dragonspeaker Mage Beginner

Dark Magic Witch Intermediate

Lightning Ward Beginner

Barrier Ward Intermediate

Mud Golem Intermediate

Golem Ambusher Beginner

Frost Golem Intermediate

Stone Golem Beginner

Dragon Tyrant Beginner

Berserker Intermediate

Beast Rider Intermediate

Poison Wisp Expert

Furgon Expert


Basically, I think that anyone who knows how to move / attack can use the beginner pieces as well as an expert, but the intermediate ones will be better if used by better players, and the red will be used best by the expert players :p

[|ReNeGaDe|]

Okay here is mine


Cleric-Intermediate
Scout-Expert
Knight-Intermediate
Frost-Expert
DSM/Pyro-Beginner
Chanty-Expert
Dragon-Intermediate
Poison Wisp-Expert
Furgon-Expert
DMW-Begginer
Beast Rider-Beginner
LW-Intermediate
Mud-Intermediate-Expert
Berseker-Beginner

[Punishment]

Hmm, Why do you think Cleric is intermediate? Just knowing when to heal? rather than wait?

[|ReNeGaDe|]

I dont think you can be an Expert in cleric cuz theres not much strategy for it, But yeh i know when to heal and when to wait.

[Punishment]

Yea, I put it as beginner, I guess it can be an intermediate piece, hmm...

[TACTOHOLIC]

Well, this is so relative, every unit, EVERY unit is better used by an expert player than a beginner one, but, some units are simply useless for beginners, there I would base my judgement to tell what units requires a little more, beginning with:
Pyromancer: Completely useless for beginners, Expert
Cleric: Not exploted his maximum potential as beginner. Intermediate
Scout: Not exploted his maximum potential as beginner. Intermediate
Enchantress: Completely useless for beginners, but every average player knows her potential. To use her: Intermediate, to neutralize her: Expert
Berseker: Completely useless for beginners, Expert
Furgon: Not exploted its maximum potential as beginner.Intermediate
Golem Ambusher: Not exploted its maximum potential as beginner.Intermediate
Beast Rider: Completely useless for beginnersExpert
Poison Wisp: Completely useless for beginnersExpert


That's it.
I don't know why you put pyro as beginner.

[Punishment]

I put pyro as a beginner because any beginner can pyro something, whereas only an expert would know the best places to furg , something like that =)

[shatterstar]

Knight - intermediate. knight-knight melee - intermediate+

Scout - Intermediate. LOS Tricks-Expert

Assassin - beginner.

Cleric - Beginner

Pyromancer - intermediate+

Enchantress - Expert

Dragonspeaker Mage - intermediate+

Dark Magic Witch - Intermediate

Lightning Ward - Beginner/Intermediate-

Barrier Ward - Expert

Mud Golem - Expert+

Golem Ambusher - Beginner+/intermediate-

Frost Golem - Intermediate

Stone Golem - n00b

Dragon Tyrant - Beginner

Berserker - Beginner

Beast Rider - Intermediate+

Poison Wisp - Expert+

Furgon - Expert+

[TACTOHOLIC]

I put pyro as a beginner because any beginner can pyro something,
Any beginner can poison something.

[Punishment]

True, but an expert would know what/when to poison. With a pyro, if there are a few pieces together, any new player can figure out that you need to hit them before they move. with a dsm, you just use them whenever you can... :p, i duno...

[TACTOHOLIC]

Oookay :rolleyes: I disagree in that with you but this is indeed a good thread.

Knight: Defending(blocking paths,clerics, bws) Intermediate Attacking&Defending (correct placement, flanking,etc) Expert
Assassin: Attacking(flanking) Expert, knowing all possible combinations within the next 4-5 turns to deal a possible bomb, or force enemy to kill her at high cost Ultra Expert

[Forest_Archer]

Why do you guys think the Berz is beginner? 7/8 of you don't even use one in your sets!

[TACTOHOLIC]

Berseker: Completely useless for beginners, Expert

:confused:

[shatterstar]

Why do you guys think the Berz is beginner? 7/8 of you don't even use one in your sets!


I dunno, for me atleast using the berz inolves swapping it out for a frost and stunning whoever needs it. and in that role, a frost is better. hence the beginner thing.

I put pyro as a beginner because any beginner can pyro something

I wouldnt agree. Any n00b can pyro with a pyro, true. But to quote your first post,

"By master, I mean use each piece the best as possible."

For this, pyro is atleast intermediate.

[LosPollos]

Knight: Intermediate
Scout: Expert to use it at it's full potential
Assassin: Intermediate to keep alive, expert to consistantly set up bomb/take down bomb
Cleric: Beginner, you learn how to use it/when to use it within the first few days(on the most part)
Pyromancer: Gold(with DSM):Beginner; Grey:Expert
Enchantress: Expert
Dragonspeaker Mage: Beginner
Dark Magic Witch: Intermediate--Expert
Lightning Ward: Intermediate, you need to know what/when to attack to use it to its full potential.
Barrier Ward: Intermediate--Expert
Mud Golem: Intermediate
Golem Ambusher: Beginner--Intermediate
Frost Golem: Intermediate
Stone Golem: Beginner
Dragon Tyrant: Intermediate
Berserker: Expert, i still have trouble with this guy
Beast Rider: Intermediate--Expert
Poison Wisp: Expert
Furgon: Expert

[monkus]

Berz I think is intermediate: It's not too difficult to figure out how to use it on the defense. Keeping it alive is pretty tough, but no expert task.

I have problems labeling any unit "Beginner". Well, almost any:

Units that I'm okay with being labled beginner:
Pyro
Stonie
GA

DSM can be used on an expert level in a non-bomb form, hence there's room for an intermediate to improve it. Anyone who's not sure, play a top-tier rusher like Crx to see how it's used. Cleric can be protected, used to wall (done it before), and needs to heal at specific times. DT has so many complicated uses like pinning and such, that I think you need to reevaluate its ranking.
Frost golem should be Intermediate-Expert. Intermediate he can be used very well, but expert players can use him in a trillion ways. I'm going to try and finish my Frosty review this summer.

[Punishment]

I don't really think that a dsm can be used to an expert level. If the opponent is good enough, I don't think it can get more than a shot really, because they will be able to kill it before it shoots again :/

I'm probably wrong in saying this, but how can a person with a DSM keep it alive for 3 turns. It has 30 health, 2 hits from anything is a kill pretty much :/

[deleryn]

I don't really think that a dsm can be used to an expert level. If the opponent is good enough, I don't think it can get more than a shot really, because they will be able to kill it before it shoots again :/

I'm probably wrong in saying this, but how can a person with a DSM keep it alive for 3 turns. It has 30 health, 2 hits from anything is a kill pretty much :/

easy, distraction.

When I played with Predador, I kept my scout alive simply because my assassins could move around to accomplish the same tasks, namely, pwning his enchantress. When it got complicated enoug that he had to block both scout and assassin attacks, he couldn't take it anymore. With a little luck, assassins and scouts can be killed in 2 turns each. But they lasted the whole first game with me XD.

But that's just the grey game. So far, I'm using the same technique with golds, on occasion.

Dunno about this skill level stuff. Sounds like a lot of technical theory that isn't very useful. Why not talk about how such and such units are mastered instead of what kind of skill it takes?

[Cuathon]

say that after i bomb the fuck outta you puni :)
technique and skill are very important, especially in the set up of a DSM bomb or even a rush with a DSM.

[TACTOHOLIC]

What I'd suggest to master any unit is to experiment; follow your instincts and not established ways of playing, don't discard any unit by what people say, the practice makes the master.

[C.H.I.L.L.]

i think both assassin and frosty should be catigorized as "expert."

its very difficult to understand the HP levels of the assassin. you have to realize that there could be a game changing move with her. and to master that skill of using her ass bomb, is pretty amazing once you've got it down.


and the frosty can be a major pwnage peice if use correctly. i've seen very skilled freestylers and turtlers use that peice to its fullest. and to me that takes great skill. (frost whoring);)

[Anarchy_United]

What I'd suggest to master any unit is to experiment; follow your instincts and not established ways of playing, don't discard any unit by what people say, the practice makes the master.
a blind duck could master the GA.

[Punishment]

Hmm,

I think it takes a beginner to use the GA, but an intermediate to defend against it :p

say that after i bomb the fuck outta you puni :)
technique and skill are very important, especially in the set up of a DSM bomb or even a rush with a DSM.


How does bombing the fuck out of me require skill though cuath? =)

[Cuathon]

i'll show you if i ever bother getting on tao.

[monkus]

Assassin is in no way an expert unit. "Mastering" the hp levels only requires a calculator and a little bit of free time. And the assassin's normal uses are usually just intermediate level anyway.

DSM probably belongs on intermediate. Really good players can position it in a way that it is protected but open for an attack. Especially as a turtle player, I've seen people use the DSM fantastically, waiting until I'm heavily preoccupied, then moving it into a spot where I can't quite kill it without overextending myself while putting it in range of severely smashing my units with some high-powered fire. It's better than most people realilze.

[Smiley_Girl]

Knight Beginner

Scout Expert

Assassin Intermediate

Cleric Beginner

Pyromancer Beginner

Enchantress Expert

Dragonspeaker Mage Beginner

Dark Magic Witch Intermediate

Lightning Ward Beginner

Barrier Ward Expert

Mud Golem Expert

Golem Ambusher Intermediate

Frost Golem Expert

Stone Golem Intermediate

Dragon Tyrant Intermediate

Berserker Intermediate

Beast Rider Expert

Poison Wisp Expert

Furgon Expert

[TACTOHOLIC]

Mastering hp levels, knowing when a unit is dead/alive( I mean by several turns, 2-3 turns is easy to predict), through some combinantions(blocking and damage) is indeed one key point of the game.

[Anarchy_United]

Cleric, LW, Pyro, GA, Stoney are all Begginer
Wisp, Furgy, Scout, BW, Chanty are all expert.
Everything else, is intermediate.

[C.H.I.L.L.]

Assassin is in no way an expert unit. "Mastering" the hp levels only requires a calculator and a little bit of free time. And the assassin's normal uses are usually just intermediate level anyway.

DSM probably belongs on intermediate. Really good players can position it in a way that it is protected but open for an attack. Especially as a turtle player, I've seen people use the DSM fantastically, waiting until I'm heavily preoccupied, then moving it into a spot where I can't quite kill it without overextending myself while putting it in range of severely smashing my units with some high-powered fire. It's better than most people realilze.

so what your saying is the DSM is the same skill level as the assassin?

mhmm, a little weird i would say. DSM requires only positioning skill, which is not really a hard thing to do. ok the assassin might take only some thought over calcuation of her hp, but in no way is the DSM categorized in the same group as the assassin.

without a doubt, dsm is a beginner skill level. why do you think 80% of the nubs in this game use it? ( i'm a nub in rush, so i use it )

[TACTOHOLIC]

If you discard a unit and not use it by being relative easy to use/master, or think of yourself a nub if you use it, then you may be one.

[Kreator]

Here's mine:
Knight - Intermediate

Scout - Expert

Assassin - Beginner

Cleric - Beginner

Pyromancer - Beginner

Enchantress - Expert

Dragonspeaker Mage - Beginner-Intermediate

Dark Magic Witch - Intermediate

Lightning Ward - Beginner-Intermediate

Barrier Ward - Intermediate

Mud Golem - Intermediate-Expert

Golem Ambusher - Beginner-Intermediate

Frost Golem - Expert

Stone Golem - Beginner-Intermediate

Dragon Tyrant - Beginner

Berserker - Beginner

Beast Rider - Beginner-Intermediate

Poison Wisp - Intermediate-Expert

Furgon - Expert

Alot of underestimated units can be really good in some situations. Like the DSM, or a GA can do good in rushes.

[Anarchy_United]

If you discard a unit and not use it by being relative easy to use/master, or think of yourself a nub if you use it, then you may be one.
Are you seriously that dumb? No one is saying they only use expert units, or don't use begginer units. They are just commenting on how easy to use all the different units are.

[Maverik07]

On the pyro,i think that it takes an intermediate player to master, but i think its safe to say only beginners use them, at least for grey sets, i dont know much about dsm

[***Duo***]

Removed.


-Duo

[TACTOHOLIC]

Are you seriously that dumb? No one is saying they only use expert units, or don't use begginer units. They are just commenting on how easy to use all the different units are.
Are YOU seriously that dumb to not realize I talked in general? You've been the whole thread quoting me, did I make something that disliked you?, I'd be glad to know, by now, shut the hell up or talk for yourself.

[LosPollos]

On the pyro,i think that it takes an intermediate player to master, but i think its safe to say only beginners use them, at least for grey sets, i dont know much about dsm
I wouldn't say that only beginners use the Pyro. I use the pyro in about half of the sets i use, and i know others who use pyros as well and i would hardly call them beginners.

[Maverik07]

I wouldn't say that only beginners use the Pyro. I use the pyro in about half of the sets i use, and i know others who use pyros as well and i would hardly call them beginners.

hmmm... could u show me a set u use with pyros? cuz i find them way too weak to use

[Realist]

All units have different levels of use. An expert player must be able to use all his units expertly or he will lose to an expert players who does know how to use all units expertly. There are no "beginner" units in TAO, all require little skill to use poorly and lots of skill to master.

When to heal is often a very difficult decision. I still struggle with the question in my more difficult games.

I think the idea that some units are "easier" than others is a beginner/intermediate idea. When you get in the expert mineset you abandon such sillyness.

[Cuathon]

you guys got owned lol.

too bad realist has an expert mineset instead of an expert mindset. can you even use mines in tao?

[***Duo***]

All units have different levels of use. An expert player must be able to use all his units expertly or he will lose to an expert players who does know how to use all units expertly. There are no "beginner" units in TAO, all require little skill to use poorly and lots of skill to master.

When to heal is often a very difficult decision. I still struggle with the question in my more difficult games.

My thoughts exactly.
However, for the sake of this thread, I have rated these units according to how basic / advanced they are.


-Duo

[Cuathon]

they arent basic or advanced. some are easier to use averagely if thats what you mean but they are all just as good if used correctly by a real pro.

[LosPollos]

All units have different levels of use. An expert player must be able to use all his units expertly or he will lose to an expert players who does know how to use all units expertly. There are no "beginner" units in TAO, all require little skill to use poorly and lots of skill to master.

When to heal is often a very difficult decision. I still struggle with the question in my more difficult games.

I think the idea that some units are "easier" than others is a beginner/intermediate idea. When you get in the expert mineset you abandon such sillyness.
Oooh, i like the putdown at the end. Very egotistical and an almost hidden sharpness, very well done.

As for your "evaluation", i would agree. Yes, the idea behind rating units as to how easy it is to master them is a bit of a silly thing to do, but the ratings people gave are still usefull. I believe that the units people rated as expert are the ones that they had the most trouble with and/or spent the most time learning to use skillfully. So yes, they all need quite a bit of skill to master, but that doesn't mean that all of them are just as easy to learn to use effectively and i think that is more how people rated them, how hard it is to learn to use them effectively.

[***Duo***]

they arent basic or advanced. some are easier to use averagely if thats what you mean but they are all just as good if used correctly by a real pro.


I realize the explanation makes very little sense to anyone but myself. :S

In otherwords, yes, that is correct.


-Duo

[***Duo***]

LosPollos - I believe a better type of thread could use numbers rating the difficulty to master these units, rather than simply labeling the unit itself.


-Duo

[Cliche]

I agree with Realist.

I also think that it depends on which units are being used together and which type of situation they're in.

[LosPollos]

LosPollos - I believe a better type of thread could use numbers rating the difficulty to master these units, rather than simply labeling the unit itself.


-Duo
Well yes, of course that is true. Labeling units as Beginner, Intermediate, and Expert was not as good as a rating the difficulty by numbers because the thread wasn't created to label them by their difficulty to master. I'm just stating what i get out of the labels that have been given.

[***Duo***]

Well yes, of course that is true. Labeling units as Beginner, Intermediate, and Expert was not as good as a rating the difficulty by numbers because the thread wasn't created to label them by their difficulty to master. I'm just stating what i get out of the labels that have been given.


Right, understood.

I agree with Realist.

I also think that it depends on which units are being used together and which type of situation they're in.

That's a good point too.


-Duo

[You Lost!]

I suck

Why?

[TACTOHOLIC]

All units have different levels of use. An expert player must be able to use all his units expertly or he will lose to an expert players who does know how to use all units expertly. There are no "beginner" units in TAO, all require little skill to use poorly and lots of skill to master.

When to heal is often a very difficult decision. I still struggle with the question in my more difficult games.

I think the idea that some units are "easier" than others is a beginner/intermediate idea. When you get in the expert mineset you abandon such sillyness.
That's why I based my judgement on how useless a unit is for a beginner, because I think the same.

[Cliche]

I hAckz0rz ac0untz! I als0 s|_|ck gLant enispaY.

Now why would you admit that?