Defense- Power or technique?

[Match Strike]

I was thinking about defensive play while perusing some old threads in General Strategy. Since at least December of 2004, with the introduction of the wisp and Golem Ambusher, it has been generally agreed upon that offense has the advantage over defense.

Now, I don't want to really debate whther that's true. There are plenty who think that defense is actually the superior style of play. I am interested, however, in what style of defense you (yes, you!) think is superior. Of course, we lots of one-sided rushes, generally slightly altered versions of yesteryears "Anti-rushes," a form I was in the right place at the right time to witness come about. These same-side rushes are usually not all aggressive, like spread rushes or the now all but extinct frontline rushes, but combine at least some ability to defend, usually with lots of knights and a frost golem. This has come to be termed a "power defense." The name was probably coined by monkus, although I can't be sure.

While power defenses are based on flexibility, using units like knights that also have offensive potential as well as durability, there is a minority of players, often highly skilled, who utilize "technique defenses." You probably have encountered these forms. They can vary from a basic defensive old-school turtle, to strange conglomorations of an anti rush, utilizing Wisp and many times unconventional Stone Golem positioning. What they tend to have in common is:

a) Use of furgon. Some technique defenses do not use furgon, preffering perhaps a Lightning Ward, Wisp, Berserker, or extra Knight, but most, and in my opinion all the best of these forms, do use the Furgon.

b) Nearly strict defense. They seem to be based upon the idea that you should almost never overextend yourself, even if it meens forsaking an easy kill.

c) Playing the game on different terms. In a technique defense, this means slowing the other guy down. That's why they use furgon, but it's mroe than that. Make a rusher send in one unit at a time, not a bunch at once. That gives your frost time to work.


So, what are your thoughts on these styles of play? How are they similiar? how are they different. I can't have thought of everything.

And the ultimate(ly unanswerable) question: which is better?

[AlabamaBoy]

Front line rush with duel clerics and a mud golem positioned behind the dragon tyrant can be effective way to set up an offense, that by attacking you defend yourself at the same time. By pulling back your scouts you can shield your clerics and still attack on-comers with ranged attacks.
Technique will beat power if the person, useing a power formation is sloppy. However combining the two is wise when competing against a veteran player. You cant base your formation and tactics on a single style of play. You must be prepared to beat them down, or cut away at them with precise moves.

[Match Strike]

Well that's the basis of a power defense. Basically cornering some strong rush units with a frost golem. Positoning yourself to quikly kill all invaders.

[AlabamaBoy]

The frost Golem is not required to accomplish the desired outcome, useing the mud and scouts to get a powerful rush unit from behind then eliminating it with the dragon can be just as effective, especialy when you if you are useing two clerics to fix any damage the rusher may have caused.

Talk about this in revalation?

[imagination]

well being a peson that has played both i have a few points. Technique defense sets are MUCH MUCH harder to use correctly than power. Also if you face an opponent that uses the first 2-4 turns overwhelming you so that you dont have time to set up anything you are screwed. The plus side of these defenses is that you win by a higher # of units on average. Also if you set them up correctly the game because a wait time game. PRetty much the ony unit that cant be killed on its wait it the knight.

Now the power defense type of play is actualy more of an offense in my oppinion. usually the game is a little less complicated and games often times are much closer. Also i find that i win more with these vrs really good players because really good players can find way to counter your technique defenses.

My final oppinion is power is better.

[Punishment]

In freestyle (when i use my 1 sided antirush thing) I tend to play more of the 'power defense' style. My set uses a cleric , 2 knights, frost, LW, 2 scouts, mud, and a dragon. I generally don't go after the opponents cleric first, i try to take out their scouts , and once i've gotten rid of their range, i can use my frost like a beast. :p

[Match Strike]

An interesting point is that technique defenses are much more prevelant in turts than in freestyle. I suppose this is only natural when you're probably going to have at least one extra support unit to begin with (stone golem).

[imagination]

i have found that about 99% of sets that use an lw are defensive sets. the people who use them are tenative and you can use that to your advantage. Most anti's of the day with the basic strength units try and use the schlieffen plan and swing around their opps.

LAtely in gold games ive been forgetting about the scouts and i go for the dragon. people now use hit kill hit strategy's and dont worry about real technique. scouts are technique drags are hit kill hit.

[bludhoundz]

I think technique defense is harder to use but ultimately more rewarding if you pull it off.

[Forest_Archer]

I have been trying to use 3 knights rather than a furgon, LW, and knight. This is so I have more attacking units and the same amount of defense. It's all about the intimidation. Furgons aren't needed in some of my sets.

[Match Strike]

I think technique defense is harder to use but ultimately more rewarding if you pull it off.
How is it more rewarding? Isn't a win just a win?

[imagination]

technique defenses are much more challenging and more thought is involved. Also when you win its because you outplayed them. thats why they are more rewarding.

[Match Strike]

I don't know though. I think luck (blocking) can play a role in any type of game. However, I would like to discuss my point that power defenses try to keep up with a "rush paced" style of play, while technique forms aim to slow the game down.

[imagination]

also if i may say... defense isnt my favorite style. i much prefer a fast paced run and gun game. Whether that is better or not i cant say. And another point. the 2 times i have played bottle he owned me using a technique style and not a run and gun style which probably means while run and gun is easier, technique has much more potential as far as skill goes.

[bludhoundz]

How is it more rewarding? Isn't a win just a win?
I mean more rewarding by it can fend off a stronger attack in the long run. I think that power defense is good and easier to use, but an incredibly strong attack just can't be stopped by it. I think technique defense has the ability to stop a stronger attack if used correctly.

[Pheonix]

There is no set or style that can beat all others on a highly consistent basis. If there was everyone would use it, and then it wouldn't work. Though, that's obvious enough it doesn't need to be said.

Much of it depends on the luck of set positioning. Some sets you just see it and you know you'll win/lose because of how the units are arranged, no matter how good/bad you and the opponent are. Then again, if one player is really advanced in the style is he playing, s/he could do things that one may not be used to seeing against.

It's fruitless to talk about which styles are the best, everything is a one game shot and you take it as you see it. You just pick the sets that are rounded enough to have a higher percentage against a greater number of sets. That's how all tactics games work.

I'm sure we've all played Pokemon at some point in our lives....it proves to be a great example for other games. If you use one powerful element of pkmn, you'll destroy some people without much skill or thought, but other pokemon--while being played with a worse trainer, can own you just as much. Hence, you make a rounded group that has a higher chance against a greater number of people, and see what happens.

[ThorinH]

Granted. Sometimes I think Positioning is a bit overrated. Because simply, you cannot account for everything. But you have to have a balance. If your too agressive or too defensive, you will be picked apart. I've seen so many suicide charges and shell defenses I have to laugh as I tear them apart. Mis up your game, be unpredictable, and you will be fine, as long as you think ahead of yourself and have a plan, as well as two or three backup plans if it fails.

[Match Strike]

Pheonix- Point granted, however I'm not out to see which style is better, I just want to provoke a discussion as to what the pros and cons are in each.

And ThorinH, if you say a balance of offense and defense is what's needed, then maybe you would come out in favor of a power defense? I know that those who developed the style were seekingto emulate the power of a rush without sacrificing too much on defense. Is that an appropriate balance?

[mattroe]

to strange conglomorations of an anti rush, utilizing Wisp and many times unconventional Stone Golem positioning.


Just like to say I am the only person I have seen able to actually do very well with these sets, if you have met any others please tell me so I can play them.

[Match Strike]

Just like to say I am the only person I have seen able to actually do very well with these sets, if you have met any others please tell me so I can play them.

Um, me.

Bludhoundz and myself were some of the first to start messing around with unconventional stone golem positions, and I have some beautiful forms.

[mattroe]

Um, me.

Bludhoundz and myself were some of the first to start messing around with unconventional stone golem positions, and I have some beautiful forms.
cool can you show me some.

[Match Strike]

cool can you show me some.

Give me a sec, I cleared my cookies so I have to find my activation link for imageshack. I'd like to see some of your forms as well.

Edit: here we go.


http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6273/turtantiwisp6iu.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turtantiwisp6iu.jpg)

This one was before the modern "anti"as really even formed... January of 2005 I think. I later moved the flank knight up one to protect from LOS.

At the time, of course, GA was basically unstoppable, and that's what wisp is for. The frost golem position only has one extremely awkward open LOS shot on it in the beginning, so I'd often trap invading mud golems. Naturally the form got picked clean by bombs though, which is why I eventually moved on. I recently tried the form again.. after over a year of not using it, and was pleased to find it works just as well now-- maybe better.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2016/turtrush1ph.th.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turtrush1ph.jpg)

This one is from much later, but still while the GA and Wisp were "full throttle."
Instead of being formed before the basic structure of a power anti-rush was established, it was later, when people were complaining that there antis got whalloppedc by turtles opposite sides. It's a good form, and I've even beaten bombs with it (with obvious difficulty). I like it because a lot of antis with stone tend to have the stone golem off tot he side somehwere, and it has to move even to armor up two or three units. I basically just shoved the traditional stone grouping up front, while making sure I could also armor my "vital organs": Frost and Cleric. Its main weakness is flanking, although the stone golem can keep cleric alive, so it's not a huge problem.

[bludhoundz]

When I stop being lazy, I'll host a turtle / anti that monkus and I came up with.

[Draquist]

If you wanna learn how to turt defensive, come play draqqy. :cool:

[mattroe]

second one looks just like one I made, and played you with, only diff is that the pointers you gave me to make mine better are all in there. You remember right match.

[Match Strike]

That was a while ago, no?

Anyways, while I like hybrid turtle/anti rushes, I'm starting to feel their defensive potential is limited. In order to take full advantage of stone golem, you have to have a cluster of units. To compete in freestyle, you have to have your units near the front, at least to an extent. When you have a layered grouping of units up front, what you get inoffensive potential you lose in ability to defend your flank. Furgons can defend a flank, but then that leaves you with four unit spaces filled by support units, and you've got little choice but to limit yourself entirely to defense.

[Anarchy_United]

If you wanna learn how to turt defensive, come play draqqy. :cool:
Pulls out anal intruder 2000.
Next time we meet, your furgy won't be so lucky.

[Realist]

Technique defense? :|

All defense requires technique (and power). I disagree with any implication that what you call "technique defense" is arty and intellectual as opposed to the brute basic anti-rush defense.

The biggest determinant of what defense is best is still opposing set. Which means that it changes over time as different offensive sets become more popular.

[Draquist]

Pulls out anal intruder 2000.
Next time we meet, your furgy won't be so lucky.

I'd just like to let yous know I beat AU for the turtle tourny with me on the defensive after he posted this. :cool:

[Match Strike]

Technique defense? :|

All defense requires technique (and power). I disagree with any implication that what you call "technique defense" is arty and intellectual as opposed to the brute basic anti-rush defense.
I don't think I implied that. It's a common conception, whether mistaken or not.

The biggest determinant of what defense is best is still opposing set. Which means that it changes over time as different offensive sets become more popular.
So let's talk about now. As I was doing.

[mattroe]

Im trying some more centered BW turts ;), Im just having trouble making it mobile

[Project Justice]

Offensive will always be better then defense in this game! It just is and it aint going to change inless it goes to 1 scout! :)

[Match Strike]

Offensive will always be better then defense in this game! It just is and it aint going to change inless it goes to 1 scout! :)

Thanks, but that's not what this thread is about.

[imagination]

i think everyone in this threa is in agreement. "power" is better at first but if you can become amazing at technique it hold so much more potential.

[mattroe]

Offensive will always be better then defense in this game! It just is and it aint going to change inless it goes to 1 scout! :)

Nope the newer rushes are more cornered, and are quite easy to beat, with turtles, though same side is tough.