Demon Saga

[Supreme]

***Over the past month I have posted four demon type units on legend's server forum. However, this demon saga was inspired here on FPS forums when I tried to come up with a unit for the 99 Power Challenge. The criteria for a demon type unit is to have 2 Turn Recovery and a changeable or indefinite Power. Constructive criticism is always appreciated.***

Description Note: I have removed all visual descriptions and evolutional background stories of these demons to make this post shorter. Original decriptions (which are quite long) will be posted upon request.


Dark Infestation

HP: 38
Armor: 22
Power: X (X = Current Health)
Movement: 3
Blocking: 0
Range: 1 'Double Claw Swipe' (attacks at 2 tiles next to it; the tiles attacked must be opposite eachother, ie one on the left and one of the right)
Recovery: 1
Note: Does not move aside for allied units.


Dark Amplification

HP: 52
Armor: 14
Power: 10 + 10X (X = the number of units Dark Amplification has slain)
Movement: 4
Blocking: 38% (19% from sides)
Range: 1 (Knight Style)
Recovery: 1
Note: I know a lot of you must be confused about the Power but its pretty simple. Dark Amplification starts with a meager Power of 10. If Dark Amplification kills a unit (finishes it off) its Power becomes 10 + 10(1) = 20. If it kills off another unit then its Power becomes 10 + 10(2) = 30. Potentially it could have a Power of 200 by the end of the game (though very, very unlikely).


Dark Fluctuation

HP: 40
Armor: 20
Power: 40 – X (X = Current Health)
Movement: 3
Blocking: 0
Range: 1 (Knight style)
Recovery: 1
Note: Dark Fluctuation has 0 Power when it is at full HP. Dark Fluctuation’s HP and Power always add up to 40. (i.e. if its HP is down to 25 then its Power is 15)


Dark Imitation

HP: 64
Armor: 0
Power: X (Unblockable)
Movement: 4
Blocking: 75 (37 from sides)
Range: 2 (Hits 1 out of the 4 tiles located from it diagonally)
Recovery: 1
Note: Dark Imitation starts off with no Power/0 Power. Whenever Dark Imitation is hit for damage its Power = that damage. (ie: If Dark Imitation is hit by a Lightning Ward on first turn (either enemy or ally), its Power becomes 30 until it is hit for a different amount of damage.)

D = Dark Immitation; X = Tile in Range; 0 = Tile not in Range.

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**Re-edited: I think I have been thinking too much like a grey (which I am on Legends) and not enough about Gold versus Gold tactics, especially those involving 2 Scouts(which are not allowed on Legends) so I am going to think about units more useful to Golds from now on and am therefore lowering all recoveries to 1. Tell me what you think, thanks.**

[Forest_Archer]

Making multiple units in one post is cluttered, and only good when your name is cuckoo.

[EmelGreenLeafer]

Good try, you'll get better at it don't worry, don't listen to FA.

[Forest_Archer]

Yes, please ignore me. EmelGreenLeafer is the ultimate CAU creator. I'm his humble slave.

[Supreme]

oh sorry it was a rule on legend's forum that when you post multiple units you should post them all in one thread. I came up with these unit ideas throughout the past month and have put time and effort into all of them, cluttered or not.

[Forest_Archer]

They're very good for being a beginner here, I must say.

[bloodreign]

I like all these varied abilities especialy the Fluctuation,Amplification and the IMITATION.....although the imitation is a weee bit powerful but yet could get a bit screwy... you think that you could walk around with a LW hit immitator and kill like a god well maybe.. until someone mudquakes you for 5 damage

now the unit is a dud until you or an opponent hits him again.
as forrest gump says "I LIKE IT...I LIKE IT ALOOOUGHT"

[Cross Punisher]

The Infestation I find underpowered. Sure it starts out with more power than a LW but as soon as it's attacked once (and with a range of 1 and no blocking it will be attacked) It's power ranges from that of a witch to that even less of a pyromancer. Fact is that 2 knight attacks kills it which is the same for scouts/assassins/etc but the scout can attack from long range and the assassin has short recovery. This unit has neither and is easy prey.

The Amplication I also find underpowered because it's going to be very difficult for it to be in a situation to finisher off anything with a starting power of 9. Since people know this unit gets a power boost from killing units it wouldn't be difficult avoiding this unit's finishing blow.

The Fluctuation follows very closely to the Infestation but I like it more because as it gets closer to dying it will become more powerful being more of a menace to your opponent. With the other one, one attack practically negated it's ability, but with this one as your opponent get's closer to finishing it off the more they have to worry about a counterattack. Also more points because it can't be killed in two attacks by a knight.

The Imitation I've seen before, and it's not that bad of an ability.

Also for none of the units besides the last one do you specify if the attack was blockable or not.

[shatterstar]

i was going to post but c_p said everything necessary. i'll just say that in general they all seem massively underpowered and that i made a ward similiar to the last one.

[Supreme]

The Infestation I find underpowered. Sure it starts out with more power than a LW but as soon as it's attacked once (and with a range of 1 and no blocking it will be attacked) It's power ranges from that of a witch to that even less of a pyromancer. Fact is that 2 knight attacks kills it which is the same for scouts/assassins/etc but the scout can attack from long range and the assassin has short recovery. This unit has neither and is easy prey.

The Amplication I also find underpowered because it's going to be very difficult for it to be in a situation to finisher off anything with a starting power of 9. Since people know this unit gets a power boost from killing units it wouldn't be difficult avoiding this unit's finishing blow.

The Fluctuation follows very closely to the Infestation but I like it more because as it gets closer to dying it will become more powerful being more of a menace to your opponent. With the other one, one attack practically negated it's ability, but with this one as your opponent get's closer to finishing it off the more they have to worry about a counterattack. Also more points because it can't be killed in two attacks by a knight.

The Imitation I've seen before, and it's not that bad of an ability.

Also for none of the units besides the last one do you specify if the attack was blockable or not.
Thank you for your honesty.

I agree with you about infestation and am upping its Health a bit. Only a bit because it is a highly exploitable unit when used in combination with 2+ Clerics and a Barrier Ward.

Amplification is a tricky one. Lets assume the opponent is attacking your Cleric and he will inevitably die, so you do the smart thing and finish him off yourself with your Amplification. The step between 9 and 18 Power is a huge one. I am still considering whether or not I should up it to an even bigger step from 10 to 20.

All attacks are to be assumed blockable unless stated otherwise, meaning that only Imitation is unblockable. However, they were all originally unblockable but the folks at Legends deemed them overpowered. Though all of the demons have been called both underpowered and overpowered because of their indefinite attacks, and rightly so. These are tricky units and I always try to presume that both the player using the unit and the opposition will exploit the units changeable Power to the full extent.

***I just checked and it turns out that 2 Knight attacks does not kill it. Infestation was the original demon unit and I had forgotten that I made its HP specifically able to withstand 2 Knight attacks, leaving it at 1 HP. (44 - 20% = 35.2, while Infestation has an HP of 36)***

[Cross Punisher]

I'd also have to agree with the first two post for the Amplication on Legends:
I don't like the fact that you have to kill a unit just to make it decent.and
I agree.

Tailoring your attack so that this unit will have the last hit can be too much of a hassle/risk.
You're right though that it could have a psychological impact on the game like a LW or a chanty but I really don't feel it's as big a threat as either one of them.

[shatterstar]

I agree with you about infestation and am upping its Health a bit. Only a bit because it is a highly exploitable unit when used in combination with 2+ Clerics and a Barrier Ward.
thats not the only thing. the fact that its so easy to change its power. (HP-dependent, 0 blocking) means that it can hardly ever attack effectively. suppose its at full HP and you want to hit a pyro 4 tiles away. a scout-snipe after its 1st movement will leave you with lower HP and inadeqaute power to do what it intended.
Amplification is a tricky one. Lets assume the opponent is attacking your Cleric and he will inevitably die, so you do the smart thing and finish him off yourself with your Amplification. The step between 9 and 18 Power is a huge one. I am still considering whether or not I should up it to an even bigger step from 10 to 20.
in a tight game, how many kills do your units get? other than the knights later in the game i'd be surprised if you got more than 2 kills/unit. the fact that your scenario has you killing your own units to make it effective says something. its a melee, initially low-powered and i dont think will get to 18 till late in the game, if at all.

[Cross Punisher]

I actually usually catch opponents off guard when they find I'm more than willing to paralyze my own units for one of them.

Dey joost neber no waht im gona du nex!! !!

[Supreme]

I'd also have to agree with the first two post for the Amplication on Legends:
and

You're right though that it could have a psychological impact on the game like a LW or a chanty but I really don't feel it's as big a threat as either one of them.
Its really tough to forsee. I honestly originally made all of these units out to be more powerful, but the more I think about it the more it seems that they can be exploited so much as to make them overpowered.

The thing about Amplification is that once it takes a step up to 18 it becomes a formidable unit with its Power staying like that for the rest of the game.

But it can keep growing to 27, 36, 45 and so on up to 180 Power. I know its very unlikely that you can get your Amplification to slay so many, but if you look ahead to the end game where all the units are weakened and the Clerics are gone the Amplification could easily steal the game with a 1 Hit Kill Power total.

Also you have to look to those players who will beat down their own units and 'feed' them to the Amplification. Feed it 3 of your own units and it gets a Power of 36. And with 36 Power it will very easily kill enemy units to make it grow even stronger. After the first step, after it goes from 9 to 18 its Power can very quickly escalate to obsurd heights.

And the fact is, this first step is very easily achieved:

Turn 1: Lightning Ward your own Chanty in the back row.
Turn 2: Kill your own Chanty with Amplification.

Its really hard to judge where the balance is in this unit. But I do believe that any unit CAN be balanced. GA was only balanced way after it was input into the game when Seed saw that its range was too great. I will try to give Amplification more value though I am not sure how. Thanks for reading.

[Cuathon]

plays supreme. doesnt hit health based attack. laughs at 2 worthless enemy units.
also laughs as amp gtes no kill shots.

infestation is okay though.

[Hellblazer]

Dark Infestation

HP: 38
Armor: 22
Power: X (X = Current Health)
Movement: 3
Blocking: 0
Range: 1 'Double Claw Swipe' (attacks at 2 tiles next to it; the tiles attacked must be opposite eachother, ie one on the left and one of the right)
Recovery: 2
Note: Does not move aside for allied units.
This one was fine with me. The attack power being equal to the unit's health was an interesting and creative idea. However, I could see it becoming a bit underpowered as it slowly died, it's still a good unit.



Dark Amplification

HP: 52
Armor: 14
Power: 10 + 10X (X = the number of units Dark Amplification has slain)
Movement: 4
Blocking: 38% (19% from sides)
Range: 1 (Knight Style)
Recovery: 2
Note: I know a lot of you must be confused about the Power but its pretty simple. Dark Amplification starts with a meager Power of 10. If Dark Amplification kills a unit (finishes it off) its Power becomes 10 + 10(1) = 20. If it kills off another unit then its Power becomes 10 + 10(2) = 30. Potentially it could have a Power of 200 by the end of the game (though very, very unlikely).
This is where I started to shake my head. The attack system is still original, but way too powerful. With 52 health this unit could easily kill 3-4 units and then have about 50 attack power. That's outrageous.


Dark Fluctuation

HP: 40
Armor: 20
Power: 40 – X (X = Current Health)
Movement: 3
Blocking: 0
Range: 1 (Knight style)
Recovery: 2
Note: Dark Fluctuation has 0 Power when it is at full HP. Dark Fluctuation’s HP and Power always add up to 40. (i.e. if its HP is down to 25 then its Power is 15)
This is another interesting attack power. Actually, probably the best you've thought of here. It would give you the advantage of your opponent being hesitant to attack the DF because it would then be able to attack.


Dark Imitation

HP: 64
Armor: 0
Power: X (Unblockable)
Movement: 4
Blocking: 75 (37 from sides)
Range: 2 (Hits 1 out of the 4 tiles located from it diagonally)
Recovery: 2
Note: Dark Imitation starts off with no Power/0 Power. Whenever Dark Imitation is hit for damage its Power = that damage. (ie: If Dark Imitation is hit by a Lightning Ward on first turn (either enemy or ally), its Power becomes 30 until it is hit for a different amount of damage.)

D = Dark Immitation; X = Tile in Range; 0 = Tile not in Range.

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000X0X000
0000D0000
000X0X000
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**Edited**
Meh, this one was debatable(sp...?) whether I liked it or not. On one hand it wouldn't always have too much attack power, but on the other it could essentially become a mobile LW. I think, with that much health, it should have a power limit of about 25.

[Supreme]

This is where I started to shake my head. The attack system is still original, but way too powerful. With 52 health this unit could easily kill 3-4 units and then have about 50 attack power. That's outrageous.

haha, wow, thanks for posting Hellblazer, but if you haven't noticed, most people think the Amplification is outrageously weak. it all depends on how much you are able to exploit these demonic abilities.

Amplfication- well if you can set it up so that you finish off either your opponents or your own dying units, its Power, well, amplifies. And it can keep amplifying to obsurd heights that can sometimes justify sacrificing your own units to it.

Infestation- a unit that can really help defensively, and become a fearsome tactical attacker when teamed with 2 Clerics, Barrier Wards and Shrubbery.

Fluctuation- players have to hit their own Fluctuations at least once, and from there the unit becomes very dangerous when teamed with Barrier Wards.

Imitation- again, really benefits from Ward use. LW it when its not in danger, heal up and use it very carefully in cooperation with Barrier Wards and a Furgon.

I'm lowering Turn Recovery to 1 (followed by an effort to balance them) for all demons to see what the response to that is

[Cross Punisher]

Your criteria for a demon unit still specifies that a demon's recovery is 2:D

The Infestation I now feel is like a better assassin in most categories.

I don't think recovery effects the Amplication very much and its uses are still very limited until you've managed to land the finishing blow on a unit or just kill off one of your own.

The Fluctuation is much better and more balanced now

One thing I've overlooked is that most of these demon units are capable of having very large amount of power but only one is capable of doing unblockable damage; they are too dependant on luck with power that high. When most of them get really powerful it will most likely be attacking injured units, but with the blockable attack there won't be say a 60% chance of damage being done, there'll be a 60% chance the unit will be killed; one block could definately make or break the game for you and your opponent. This leads to more frustration with blocking as the highest blockable attack in the game was 22, now it's 30, 38, 39, 190, etc. That's a lot of damage to weigh on the mere luck of a block. What good is having the Amplication at like 100 power if the witch that's at 6 HP blocks your attack?

[Supreme]

Your criteria for a demon unit still specifies that a demon's recovery is 2:D

The Infestation I now feel is like a better assassin in most categories.

I don't think recovery effects the Amplication very much and its uses are still very limited until you've managed to land the finishing blow on a unit or just kill off one of your own.

The Fluctuation is much better and more balanced now

One thing I've overlooked is that most of these demon units are capable of having very large amount of power but only one is capable of doing unblockable damage; they are too dependant on luck with power that high. When most of them get really powerful it will most likely be attacking injured units, but with the blockable attack there won't be say a 60% chance of damage being done, there'll be a 60% chance the unit will be killed; one block could definately make or break the game for you and your opponent. This leads to more frustration with blocking as the highest blockable attack in the game was 22, now it's 30, 38, 39, 190, etc. That's a lot of damage to weigh on the mere luck of a block. What good is having the Amplication at like 100 power if the witch that's at 6 HP blocks your attack?

yes i am aware of that, originally they were all unblockable, and i prefer it that way because i dont like luck(if it were up to me all blocking would either be 0% or 100% to completely diminish the chance factor). but the fact that their attacks are blockable now doesn't really base that much on luck compared to what TAO endgames are like, where Knight blocks often determine the result of the match in the endgame.

i will mention something i mentioned on legends, which is the answer to why i am determined to balance these units.

1- All 4 demons require both the user and the opposition to think and use strong tactics. Noobs would not know how to use these units nor defend be able to defend against them much like the Enchantress unit we have in TAO now.

2- All 4 demons compliment the use of a very under-used unit among golds: the Barrier Ward. Barrier Ward is yet another unit that noobs really don't know how to use. And by that I mean it is a unit that requires strong tactics for it to be worth 1 slot.

3- These CAU ideas make players look at the game in a different way, and remind players that a unit's value is determined by how it is used.

And that is why I want to find a way to balance these units that get such conflicting responses.

ps - thanks for posting cross punisher, and i am quite flexible in terms of changing the criteria ;D.