Restricted games

[bludhoundz]

It pisses me off horribly when someone asks for a restricted freestyle game. "Free no dsm"

If you want turtle, fine, that's already a set of rules. But it is NOT a freestyle game if the dragonspeaker mage is restricted..

Learn to play the game the way its supposed to be played - without any rules except the ones given.

Sure, turtle is different, but most people who are turtlers will ALSO play the game the way it was supposed to be played.

Sorry.. I had to get this off my chest. And please.. don't ever ask me for a restricted freestyle game. I bet someone will post "no ga no dsm free game?" expect a neg

[Cuathon]

what about a no DSM game? like not free. but a game with no DSM?

[bludhoundz]

Like I said.. learn to play the game the way it was designed to be played. There shouldn't really be a reason to restrict anything..

[Zander]

this is why(back when i was gold) when people asked me for a turtle match i'd say no i'm using whatever i want, you use whatever you wantturt is the only thing i use inspector gadget, i just don't like restrictions

[Match Strike]

Philisophically I agree, but how IS it different than turtles? Besides that turtles have even more restrictions.

[bludhoundz]

I would understand that.

While turtle is my best style.. its not mainly what I play. I play MOSTLY freestyle, only turtle if my opponent asks for it.

[Cuathon]

yeah turtles are the same but worse.

[Match Strike]

The only real argument I see against it is one of semantics. If they were to say "Game with no DSM," would that be better?

[bludhoundz]

They can find someone else who plays games with no dsm, I don't.

I play freestyle (straight freestyle), or turtle, simply because its a minigame I like. However, I do not ask of my opponents to turtle, while these people ask for no ga or no dsm daily.

[Forest_Archer]

Cua already suggested that, match, but it didn't please Dr. Blud.

[BaxVarlet]

I totally agree blud. "free with no dsm" just makes people look stupid, as it wouldn't be free if there are restrictions.

[bludhoundz]

No.

No it did not please me.

This post @ FA, zoma posted while I was posting.

zoma: :wub:

[imback]

Learn to play the game the way its supposed to be played - without any rules except the ones given.

I don't think the rules are a comprehensive list of good gameplay. Sure, violating them is wrong, but the fact that the rules permit something doesn't make it good. For example, I could take the full amount of time every single turn, for no reason other than to stall you. I could refuse to surrender and just run, hide and heal after it's become abundantly clear that I have absolutely no chance of winning. Grey jumping from gold accounts is another example.

The point is, the fact that the rules don't say something - like using a DSM - is wrong doesn't mean the game is "supposed to be played" with one. I don't see how you can be ok with turtle games and not ok with "freestyle no dsm" games. The distinction, as Match Strike pointed out, is just one of semantics.

TAO is a strategy game. The units each player chooses to use affect the strategy within each game. I see no reason why people can't agree that they want their game to be about a particular type of strategy.

[BaxVarlet]

People say no DSM not because they like differing strategy involved with a no DSM game, they say it because their forms are weak against the DSM.

Saying "no dsm, no ga" is basically saying "my form is weak against a dsm and a GA, please do not use them so I have an advantage"

I find it more fun to either take the risk of the opponent having one or both of those units, or change a form to make it better.

[bludhoundz]

I am fine with free no dsm games.. as long as they are not a preferred style of play. I only play turtles on the side.. not as my main game.

And yes, you are right, maybe I should be more specific. The timer is used for one to think about their moves, I do not agree with the abuse of it, or running from the opponent once the game is already over, but I am not talking about what goes on IN the game.

I am rather talking about how the game was built to be played.. all the units were put there so a player could use any unit they wanted to in a game.

Also, yes, the rules may not be a comprehensive list of good gameplay, but yet again, I'm not arguing about what goes on during the game, rather the arrangement of a game. I just think that a player should be able to handle what the game throws at them -- all the units and the rules with them. That is how the game was designed.. for someone to design a formation that should be able to handle most anything, not almost anything and restrict one unit that it is particularly weak to.

[imback]

BaxVartlet -

You admit at the end of your post that you will change a form to try to counter the possibility of a DSM or GA. That means you can't comfortably use the form - and all the strategy it involves - when there is a possibility of a DSM. That means removing the possibility of a DSM is conducive to certain types of forms, and thus certain types of strategies. Both players know there isn't going to be a DSM, so this isn't an unfair advantage, just an agreement to play the game in a certain way.

Honestly, does this seem all that different to playing something like starcraft and saying "no rush 10 minutes?" You choose to play the game a certain way because you think it's more fun.

Blud - I have to go, I'll respond later.

[bludhoundz]

I just think that the game should be played as it is designed FOR THE MOST PART. That is the way it is made, players should be able to handle it.

I have no problem with people ALSO playing a no dsm no ga game, but they shouldn't turn down a game because their opponent says they don't want any restrictions.

[Match Strike]

Yeah. personally, i think that the game could do with a lot more units, all different sorts, wehre it's kind of a jumble of strategies and you never know what you'll come up against. I think we'd need at least 5 more units to make this happen, and updates to units would have to be monthly, not three times a year or less.

I think the game has become way too.. yes... formulaic. At least though in freestyle there are lots of different styles of play you can come across. For that reason I really haven't been playing turtle games much lately (unless specifically asked "Match, wanna turt? Please??" and nobody else is playing).

So yeah, I think either make a form that can stand up to DSM, or make one that can't and accept the possibility that it can be pwned upon.

(I currently am using a form that seems to have no trouble with any of the main types of strats, but that's a discussion for another thread).

[Rock Hard]

Blud Like His dsm cause he can use 56 power :P

[bludhoundz]

71.

[Realist]

What's wrong with asking for games that are most fun for you to play? :\

Anyways, I also think its silly that people ask for no-DSM games, not because unit restrictions are inherently wrong but because DSM's are generally such weak units. Why does no one ever ask for no-mud games? Muds are really what defines the current era of rock paper scissors sets...where the mud is in relation to your opponents form is often the determinant of who wins...while DSMs are fairly easy to either counter or simple recover from.

Especially since the new turn rules have come into effect.

[Match Strike]

I agree.

Hell, I think Beast Rider can be much more of a deciding factor in most games, simply because most forms these days don't try to protect cleric byond a bunch of units up front and maybe a frost somewhere in back.

But yeah, I guess whatever floats your boat. Nevertheless, I really don't think people should limit themselves like that though, just because they have a set they really like, and DSM can mess it up, doesn't mean they should simply exclude the DSM from their games. IMO, as I already said, the more variation of forms and units, the better.

[plusminus]

I'd love to play a free no-mud game, but I doubt anyone would take me up on it. No knights is another good one.

[The Archon]

People say no DSM not because they like differing strategy involved with a no DSM game, they say it because their forms are weak against the DSM.

Saying "no dsm, no ga" is basically saying "my form is weak against a dsm and a GA, please do not use them so I have an advantage"

I find it more fun to either take the risk of the opponent having one or both of those units, or change a form to make it better.

People don't ask for a "no ga and/or dsm" game beacouse they want to get an advantage (or, at least, mediocre/experienced players don't), but beacouse they don't want the game to be decided on a coin toss (with the GA) or on a lucky DSM side block that allows it to make one attack more.

Many players use a turtle also in freestyle games, but they don't ask for a "no mud golem" game...

The point is, I have a better form, I play better and my noobish opponent wins beacouse he put a GA + Mud on my side?

[BaxVarlet]

The point is, I have a better form, I play better and my noobish opponent wins beacouse he put a GA + Mud on my side?

How is your form better if your cleric gets killed in the first few turns?

[TACTOHOLIC]

Such high-unblockable-multiple damage is a deciding factor of the game. Plus you could have 3 units with very high damage( 27-27-28).
In a freestyle game it won't be variety, it will limit the game more, cause almost all will use the DSM. What does that mean?, the game is not balanced with DSM and does not let for a complex combinations of units, it only restricts the game for the use of it.
So, restricted games ( No DSM, No Golem Ambusher) allow for more formations, while freestyle games only restrict it more.

[BaxVarlet]

Such high-unblockable-multiple damage is a deciding factor of the game. Plus you could have 3 units with very high damage( 27-27-28).
In a freestyle game it won't be variety, it will limit the game more, cause almost all will use the DSM. What does that mean?, the game is not balanced with DSM and does not let for a complex combinations of units, it only restricts the game for the use of it.
So, restricted games ( No DSM, No Golem Ambusher) allow for more formations, while freestyle games only restrict it more.

So knights are unbalanced as well, as almost everyone uses knights. Same with cleric, scouts, frost golem, mud golem, etc. Let's restrict all of those so the game can be more "open"

The DSM is not overpowered.

[Anarchy_United]

Such high-unblockable-multiple damage is a deciding factor of the game. Plus you could have 3 units with very high damage( 27-27-28).
In a freestyle game it won't be variety, it will limit the game more, cause almost all will use the DSM. What does that mean?, the game is not balanced with DSM and does not let for a complex combinations of units, it only restricts the game for the use of it.
So, restricted games ( No DSM, No Golem Ambusher) allow for more formations, while freestyle games only restrict it more.
lol, you should try playing me. No DSM limit creativity, same with no GA. I rarely use DSM. Its not that good.

[Cuathon]

lol DSM ownz0rz, but its not god.

[TACTOHOLIC]

The DSM is not overpowered.
It makes a totally different game, including it or not. As the two scouts, two frost golems, etc.
If turtle is a game style, why shouldnt it be "Game w/o dsm or ga".

[bludhoundz]

People don't ask for a "no ga and/or dsm" game beacouse they want to get an advantage (or, at least, mediocre/experienced players don't), but beacouse they don't want the game to be decided on a coin toss (with the GA) or on a lucky DSM side block that allows it to make one attack more.

Many players use a turtle also in freestyle games, but they don't ask for a "no mud golem" game...

The point is, I have a better form, I play better and my noobish opponent wins beacouse he put a GA + Mud on my side?
Anyone with a good GA formation can kill the cleric no matter where it is (GA side, center or opp side).

The GA / mud side is for pressure, I don't even usually get to use the GA there. If I get opposite side, I bring down my scout on the flank and throw my dragon into their formation to pressure their cleric.

As for dsm.. why call it a lucky piece? It can never get a lucky hit, it is only one's own fault for taking the chance that it can block. If you really wanna take care of a dsm, use a mud and dragon.. and the mud will deal damage to other units; it doesn't really go out of your way, and the dsm ultimately doesn't deal that much damage.

Such high-unblockable-multiple damage is a deciding factor of the game. Plus you could have 3 units with very high damage( 27-27-28).
In a freestyle game it won't be variety, it will limit the game more, cause almost all will use the DSM. What does that mean?, the game is not balanced with DSM and does not let for a complex combinations of units, it only restricts the game for the use of it.
So, restricted games ( No DSM, No Golem Ambusher) allow for more formations, while freestyle games only restrict it more.
1. You can't have 27-27-28, it's 27-27-4.

2. Kill the dsm quickly and it basically got in one or two hits on a few units -- the same would happen if you let a knight live long enough, it probably does 20 to one scout and 17 to a pair of knights. The dsm just has the ability to do this faster, but essentially dies much more quickly as well.

3. It doesn't restrict the game because not all players use it. One can create a form with a variety of different units and still be able to handle a dsm (your very own form, for example, could nail a dsm first turn with the berserker and follow up with a dragon blast or mudquake).

4. If the dsm were this powerful, everyone would always bomb every game.

[TACTOHOLIC]

But you will eventually have 28 DT power. So you will use the 27 DSM pyro power and DT power aswell.
It changes the game completely, you could create an effective form vs it, but then that may sucks vs another one.
I think it is okay freestyle games, as restricted games are, specially if people are willing to play them.

[BaxVarlet]

But you will eventually have 28 DT power. So you will use the 27 DSM pyro power and DT power aswell.
It changes the game completely, you could create an effective form vs it, but then that may sucks vs another one.
I think it is okay freestyle games, as restricted games are, specially if people are willing to play them.

You're missing the point. No one cares whether or not people play restricted games with one another. We (I?) just care that they ONLY play these restricted games. To turn down a true freestyle game because there might be a DSM or a GA in it is stupid.

There are so many ways to kill a DSM in two turns. Unless your opponent is a true master using a DSM, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to kill the DSM after he uses it only once. Plus with the first turn rule, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to minimize the damage done by the DSM.

[Match Strike]

Both DSM and GA each have units that counter them effectively 100% of the time, as of the addition of the first turn rule. In fact they have more, but....

Don't like DSM? use a lightning ward.

Don't like GA? Throw in a furgon and shrub around it first turn.

I was oneof the haters of the GA when it came out, but now, with its range reduced, I think it's one of the games most balanced units. useful, but not overpowered.

As for the DSM: yes, it will have 27 power, but there dragon is essentially nerfed. Use that to your advantage. Honestly, DSM are easy to counter. If it's yuor cleric your concerned about, either a) learn to play without it; or b) Play no Mud/ beast Rider games. That will keep it safe for sure. :rolleyes:

[Anarchy_United]

Ah, TactoHolic, your such an idiot. Play me with a DSM form, I will rape it without a LW, without using a DSM myself. DSM nor GA are hard to counter at all.

[Biohazard77]

wow didn't know i helped cause this...
Anyhow...i don't quite agre with the "My set is weak againstDSM or GA theory"

I guess it just is your style of play.
People tend to NOT want to get bombed, and i believe that is the reasdon for saying that. I do play with DSM, but i always offer the no DSM game first. I'd just rather not use it. However, if u wish to use it, u can.
Sorry about that Blud....didn't mean to send ya on a tangent.
But all in all, you are right.
That is the way the game was meant to be played.
But take this into perspective....
Some may say that because it gives them an advantage.
Not me personally, but for example, Dape.
He made his own rules(turt) and even posted them.
The way they are gives him an advantage to win.
Not so in my case when i ask for a no dsm game.
I m currently working on a dsm set, just so i don't have to say that anymore .

[TACTOHOLIC]

Ah, TactoHolic, your such an idiot. Play me with a DSM form, I will rape it without a LW, without using a DSM myself. DSM nor GA are hard to counter at all.

Haha, who says I'm using DSM? You will make a form specially for it.
Btw, I seriously doubt you could manage to beat me.

[Anarchy_United]

Haha, who says I'm using DSM? You will make a form specially for it.
Btw, I seriously doubt you could manage to beat me.

Ha-ha! I could beat 95% of DSM forms with a grey form. Beleive me, I wouldn't pull something cheap ass like that. You might think I did, but thats just because all my forms have no specific weaknesses to other types of forms like that.