The Search for the Anti Anti-Rush

[Punishment]

Well,

It is the age of the Anti.

Everyone seems to be using one, and to a great effect as there really is no counter set to one.

So, I decided it was time to try to find a counter to your average anti.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/taosets/standardanti.jpg

Is a fairly common Anti that i see. It does well in same side games, and is a threat in opposite side games as well.

I think that the key to beating an anti-rush is a quick cleric kill, and then playing a strong power defense with your units. I think that the "Anti-Killer" will be able to take out a cleric without too much trouble, even if it means sacraficing a unit or two.

So, here I have my "Anti-Anti Rush".

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6851/theantiantili7.jpg

I used this set all of yesterday (Coder used it too, with great success), and i won 23 games in a row with it on rev. Granted, some were against 750's, some against rushes, turtles, some against bombs, but the majority were against anti rushes.

In those games, I was able to kill the opponents cleric within 5 moves about 20 times, and only once did the opponents cleric live past 10 moves. (And he had 3 frost + furg >_>).

A problem with this set is the open wisp. It is essential for killing a corner cleric though, and not too many people use LW's, so it is more than likely it will get a shot. However, this problem is usually not too big of a deal, because if they have a corner cleric, and take their turn to zap your wisp, you have a GA shot at the cleric, and then you can advance the wide scout and hopefully kill it off. If that is blocked, try to distract them so they do not kill your GA, or force them to open some LoS to the cleric.

The other problem is the fact that it is VERY weak against a standard Bomb. In my game with Cuathon, who used his bomb, it was a very close game, but I was able to pull it out even without any scouts after the first two turns.

I think a possibility for this set would be to take out the dragon, and add in a third knight and a Beast Rider, or a Beast rider and a frost. A frost can be used to ensure a wisp attack if you get first turn. A beast rider is a good infiltrater, and can be used to a great effect if you have some skill with it.

So, post your problems with my current form, and post what you think would work better against an Anti.

Peace out,
Pun

PS: Thanks to coder, my Honorary Latina.

Also , If this exact thread was made before, sorry, but the forums were just too damn laggy/down all day for me to search.

Also, I know this may have some potential, because an unnamed 1100+ on rev with the exact anti above got mad at me for making a "perfect counter to his set"

[powza]

That set looks pretty daunting. Good job

[FiReBrAnD]

might have to test it out.. :bigsmile:

[bludhoundz]

I think that it's strength lies on the GA / wisp side.

The other side you would probably lose more trying to get the cleric.

[powza]

Yeah I agree blud. Still the other side is pretty daunting, maybe a turt could own it but I guess its an anti-anti not an anti-turt

[Punishment]

Well, if you happen to get a turtle on your mud side you can just quake them into submission :p

It is probably slightly weaker on the mud side, but you can still advance the one scout + mudquake >_>

[sayter]

depends on the turt, boys. Though from what I see, it could hold its own against a turt quite well too.

For example, if using a stonie, on "opp side" of muddy, they still need to worry about the GA AND wisp unstoning them..while they focus on that, you have ample chance to get the muddy in. Ever with a furgon planting walls, one of those 3 units WILL unstone them sooner or later. and once that happens, you already have your archers in potential LoS positions and a central dragon just mocking the hell out of any frost golem that may be present.

I see this as purely a 50/50 form on many turts, and in a lot of gold turts ive seen, perhaps far better odds. Even someone like Monkus might have issues in a turt against that form. However, it would largely depend on the turt itself. Without a stoney, and a higher foccus on offensive strikes the turt would perhaps be able to simply neutralize any forward facing threat, and still have a good handle on flank attacks by keeping you tied up.

I like your form. I wont like playing against it, however :)

[Magician]

I still think I could take that using my turt. Odds on if I get the mud side, anyway. GA/Wisp, a little closer. Both would be close :)

[sayter]

thts what im sayin, mag :) its VERY dependant on first turn, and also on if you happen to have a LW ready to repel Mr.Wisp. With that in place, everything changes. Nuke the wisp, suddenly its a mere GA on your front side. and you can pretty much just giggle at that, since a few turns with scouts and perhaps a DT shot make easy work of that....moreso if he attacks blocking units with it.

[sayter]

that said, I suggest we name this form "The Anti Pimp" or "Pimp Anti" or some variation thereof. It is certainly a contender for anti-anti thronehood :)

[Magician]

Yes, it is indeed...looks like an ugly beast! Well done Puni!

[Punishment]

Ehh

I've actually played quite a few LW turtles with it, and most were on the wisp side. If they kill my wisp first turn I just advance the mud, and both scouts are both in range to destone and such.

Magician, maybe i can play your turtle with it , and we 'll see how it goes ;p

[Frozen Toast]

I have turtle, but i have 2 frostie, thats the only way to beat the anti-rush

[Punishment]

I have turtle, but i have 2 frostie, thats the only way to beat the anti-rush

I think that two frost sets are useless here :/ (I'm probably wrong here)

There's just too much ranged to take care of them.

Also, by using a 2 frost turtle, you have 1 fewer attacker than you would have otherwise had, so i think a good anti may just overpower you.

[Magician]

Punishment and I just played a couple of games, my turt vs his anti anti thing :) I played like an ass in the first game, and he thoroughly owned me (I got the wisp side). 2nd time round, I won on the mud side, but it was too tight. gg Puni! :)

[The Coder]

Yeah I agree blud. Still the other side is pretty daunting, maybe a turt could own it but I guess its an anti-anti not an anti-turt

I beat all the turts I played with it. But strong side.
I did agree with pun about wisp being strong side
We were working bought that.

[Alaric]

Lol, this anti-anti looks suspicously like my old rush. Anyway, I like it, but I mostly only do turts with my gold account. (I prefer to just us grey though).

[The Coder]

This set is already being anti'd. Thats right, an anti anti anti

[Alaric]

Why are we wasting time? lets get started on the anti-anti-anti-anti!!!
Or the anti-anti-anti-anti-anti?
anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti?
anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti?

[The Coder]

Why are we wasting time? lets get started on the anti-anti-anti-anti!!!
Or the anti-anti-anti-anti-anti?
anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti?
anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-anti?

Thusly throwing TAO into anarchy. Like I planned

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Oh sure, now you believe me when I say anti's are too common :p

What you have there is a standard bumrush clerickiller. Much like what the anti was designed to kill.

I think my anti would eat it alive :cool:

The strength of the antirush is it's ability to knightrush or frostie wall after killing vital units. Most of the time when I lose, it's because of knights. It might take me a little bit longer to kill your muddie GA and wisp than usual, but once they're dead, I think I'd be set.

[Punishment]

Oh sure, now you believe me when I say anti's are too common :p

What you have there is a standard bumrush clerickiller. Much like what the anti was designed to kill.

I think my anti would eat it alive :cool:

The strength of the antirush is it's ability to knightrush or frostie wall after killing vital units. Most of the time when I lose, it's because of knights. It might take me a little bit longer to kill your muddie GA and wisp than usual, but once they're dead, I think I'd be set.

Heh

I would gladly take you on :)

I don't think an anti would rip me apart. It pretty much can kill a cleric, and i can start to go defensive (forcing you to be offensive)

I think my 8-9 units left after the cleric kill are more than enough to take care of your 9 units with no cleric :p

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

If you get the cleric ;)

With my formation, the wisp is my biggest threat in terms of cleric killing ability because it freezes my furgon and sets my cleric up.

[The Coder]

Heh

I would gladly take you on :)

I don't think an anti would rip me apart. It pretty much can kill a cleric, and i can start to go defensive (forcing you to be offensive)

I think my 8-9 units left after the cleric kill are more than enough to take care of your 9 units with no cleric :p

There's also a psychological effect of loosing your cleric.

Many people I have met in grey surrender almost immediatly after loosing their cleric, Im moderatly new to gold, not the most familiar, I still can't remember how much damage things do. But it's similar

[bludhoundz]

Heh

I would gladly take you on :)

I don't think an anti would rip me apart. It pretty much can kill a cleric, and i can start to go defensive (forcing you to be offensive)

I think my 8-9 units left after the cleric kill are more than enough to take care of your 9 units with no cleric :p
You would take like 20 moves to get his cleric on the non wisp/GA side, his furgon would screw your scouts over, and your mud wouldn't be entirely helpful since he would batter it to death.

I think the problem with the form is it is unbalanced. The GA/wisp side just happens to be much stronger, and while scouts and mud can go for the other cleric, scouts can be blocked off much more easily than a GA or wisp.

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Yup, like I said.

Your standard bum rush clerickiller, which my form was designed to kill.

Flip the coin :cool:

[Alaric]

There's also a psychological effect of loosing your cleric.

Many people I have met in grey surrender almost immediatly after loosing their cleric, Im moderatly new to gold, not the most familiar, I still can't remember how much damage things do. But it's similar

Wow. Even as grey, I can still do enough damage to win without a cleric. Ughh, you should never just give up.

[Punishment]

Daemon, I think i could get your cleric on my mud side too. I'd just kill your furgon :p

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Easier said than done :)

[The Coder]

Yup, like I said.

Your standard bum rush clerickiller, which my form was designed to kill.

Flip the coin :cool:

Its actually not much of a coin flip. Most set up on the same side.

[Anarchy_United]

The one problem with that, is anyone with a DSM can DSM both your scouts criticly damaging you. Thats just something you never want to do in any form, have 2 scouts that can both be DSMed.

[Punishment]

The one problem with that, is anyone with a DSM can DSM both your scouts criticly damaging you. Thats just something you never want to do in any form, have 2 scouts that can both be DSMed.

I know, which is why i put bombs as its weakness. This isn't the 'ultimate form' , this is sort of an anti-anti :p

Although, because it has a wisp, it can take out a dsm pretty easy if it gets second turn.

[The Coder]

this is sort of an anti-anti :p

Psst. That parts understood by the style of the set.

[Match Strike]

I can't beleive nobody has pointed out what seems to me a VERY obvious improvement to the set.

A beast rider placed near the center can often almost single-handedly kill a cleric on EITHER side, and is not killed by anything in one hit. Also, a beast rider when saved is a little better as a substitute all-round fighter, making up for the fact that you will often be a knight down when facing antis.

Also, I don't see why you need to have BOTH your scouts in the center. Against most antis, you only need one. instead, put one on the wall with some knight proptection.

EDIT: Like this
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3121/antiantiem7.th.png (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=antiantiem7.png)

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

My form's prime weakness with a clerickiller is a wisp however :cool:

[Match Strike]

My form's prime weakness with a clerickiller is a wisp however :cool:

Maybe your form, but not most forms. Also, beast rider is a better mud substitute than wisp. I know your form, and I'd rather play it with a beast rider than a wisp.

[Punishment]

I can't beleive nobody has pointed out what seems to me a VERY obvious improvement to the set.

A beast rider placed near the center can often almost single-handedly kill a cleric on EITHER side, and is not killed by anything in one hit. Also, a beast rider when saved is a little better as a substitute all-round fighter, making up for the fact that you will often be a knight down when facing antis.

Also, I don't see why you need to have BOTH your scouts in the center. Against most antis, you only need one. instead, put one on the wall with some knight proptection.

EDIT: Like this
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3121/antiantiem7.th.png (http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=antiantiem7.png)

Match strike

I don't like the scout in the middle, because 90% of antis have a unit in the middle column, and you won't be able to kill the cleric if you weaken it the first turn.

Sometimes I use a beast rider, but if i use it, i take out the dragon and add a 3rd knight as well.

I actally have one outside scout now, to help with the middle. I'll upload it in a sec.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8238/kablambj9.jpg

been using this a while, works well.

[Match Strike]

Fine, move the scout, but in rushes, BR is still > wisp.

[Punishment]

Fine, move the scout, but in rushes, BR is still > wisp.

I disagree.

A beast rider is a good unit , yes, but it doesn't have the same quick kill potential as a wisp :)

[bludhoundz]

BR is easier to block off since it doesn't have teleportation, and they're equally easy to kill. Yes, wisp has slightly less durability, but if I give either of them a knight hit, they will die in the next turn (wisp even if you heal, and in BR's case I will then back hit or use an unblockable hit).

[Rafen09]

I disagree.

A beast rider is a good unit , yes, but it doesn't have the same quick kill potential as a wisp :)

I disagree with your disagreement. Wisp is life saver in some situations, but useless in all others. The br is usefull in nearly every situation. As a retort, please dont say that i simply have no skill with a wisp, I think of the wisp very highly, but it just so happens that the br is better.

[Punishment]

I disagree with your disagreement. Wisp is life saver in some situations, but useless in all others. The br is usefull in nearly every situation. As a retort, please dont say that i simply have no skill with a wisp, I think of the wisp very highly, but it just so happens that the br is better.

I've not seen you play with the wisp, so i don't know. The wisp in this current set uses very little skill. You simply make it wisp the cleric, or if they have a dsm, you wisp that instead.

While the beast rider is better in some situations, the wisp works better with this set. A wisp you can't really block from hitting the cleric. A beast rider is more easily dealt with. What i'm looking for in this is a quick 2-3 move cleric kill.

In some situations, the wisp is a hard unit to use skillfully. I use it in all of my turtles (that i'm good with :p) and I stink without it (ask blud :p)

This set is Very easy to use well. Any new player could probably kill the cleric just as well as an experienced one :/

[The Coder]

I've not seen you play with the wisp, so i don't know. The wisp in this current set uses very little skill. You simply make it wisp the cleric, or if they have a dsm, you wisp that instead.

While the beast rider is better in some situations, the wisp works better with this set. A wisp you can't really block from hitting the cleric. A beast rider is more easily dealt with. What i'm looking for in this is a quick 2-3 move cleric kill.

In some situations, the wisp is a hard unit to use skillfully. I use it in all of my turtles (that i'm good with :p) and I stink without it (ask blud :p)

This set is Very easy to use well. Any new player could probably kill the cleric just as well as an experienced one :/

Pun pretty much summed it up. In this set, its so simple, that even I can use it correctly.

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

BR > Shrubs

I personally make sure that I put BRs fairly high on my to-kill list.

[Match Strike]

Many people laughed when I put beast riders in my rushes immediately after the changes to wisp and GA. They stopped laughing when they realized their clerics were doomed.

My main points still stand. BR is more durable (More hp than wisp, about 50% blocking, decent armor.. come on, wisp is waaay easier to kill). BR is better at flanking. Yes, wisp doesn't need to flank, but most antis today are laughably weak on the flank. They're made to counter frontal assaults, so play to their weaknesses. Most importantly, beast rider in the center can be equally deadly to a cleric on either side. Wisp takes longer to get to another corner, and is more vulnerable along the way.

[bludhoundz]

The thing is.. if one hits the BR and moves their piece to block off its hit to cleric, then its useless. It can't go in for the hit so moving it closer makes it die. Healing earns it a dragon blast and it still can't reach the cleric.

The wisp, if it has the lucky placement, usually can't be stopped in such a manner.

I'm not saying either one is better, but the only time a BR has ever given me trouble in a freestyle game is when I made stupid move. With a better move, I could have brought it close to death and still blocked it from killing my cleric.

Wisps have actually given me trouble before.

[Magician]

Yes, I completely agree with you there Blud. The only time I've ever had problems with a BR is when I've made a stupid move (resulting in the loss of frost and stone focuses). Albeit, I don't freestyle much, and the BR is infrequent in FPS turtling, but he's never really posed a problem. The wisp, on the other hand gives me a whole bundle of joys - it's my favorite unit, and has earned me countless wins :) And can be a bitch to defend against, especially if you're not properly prepared for it.

[the bird]

dang puni 2 scouts in the center is harsh for an anti. i had trouble with 2 scouts in the middle but it was still a good game even though i lost. had to be one of my hardest fought games on army server. puni u also have to understand some antis are like scout los stopers while each unit still covers one another. this is one my scout los stopers.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5540/antisetup6xs3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Match Strike]

The thing is.. if one hits the BR and moves their piece to block off its hit to cleric, then its useless. It can't go in for the hit so moving it closer makes it die. Healing earns it a dragon blast and it still can't reach the cleric.

The wisp, if it has the lucky placement, usually can't be stopped in such a manner.

I'm not saying either one is better, but the only time a BR has ever given me trouble in a freestyle game is when I made stupid move. With a better move, I could have brought it close to death and still blocked it from killing my cleric.

Wisps have actually given me trouble before.
Beast rider can be just a distraction, but so can wisp, and I'd rather my distraction be harder to kill. Also, BR is really NOT easy to block off.. and even if you do, you'll probably open up scout LOS, give my mud another turn free of hits, etc..

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

If anybody would like to test an anti anti on me, I'm currently on Rev as berzerker.

8:19 EST currently

[bludhoundz]

Beast rider can be just a distraction, but so can wisp, and I'd rather my distraction be harder to kill. Also, BR is really NOT easy to block off.. and even if you do, you'll probably open up scout LOS, give my mud another turn free of hits, etc..
This is true for most players, but I see you haven't played my antirush with a cleric killer yet (if you don't have the GA side, I'll give you a helluva time and probably take 2-3 units).

Also, theres only 2 starting scout LOS shots to my cleric. Both require that you move right next to my dragon and right into the midst of my units. They are suicide missions. To block off BR, I can move a bunch of pieces without opening any spaces, by rearrangement.

[Match Strike]

This is true for most players, but I see you haven't played my antirush with a cleric killer yet (if you don't have the GA side, I'll give you a helluva time and probably take 2-3 units).

Also, theres only 2 starting scout LOS shots to my cleric. Both require that you move right next to my dragon and right into the midst of my units. They are suicide missions. To block off BR, I can move a bunch of pieces without opening any spaces, by rearrangement.
While my mud quakes again.. more even worse, punches your cleric.

Here's the real problem I have with the position of the wisp in that rush--it doesn't allow for the other, really big use of the wisp, which is as a technuique unit. If you have it farther back just a couple squares it still has a spot to hit clerics, and can be used for some defense of your own. Yes it's a little easier to block off, but it won't be LW zapped and if you have GA on the same side, they have to block that first anyways.

Also, comepletely unrelated, but why havn't we considered DSM? Many antis have lots of juicy units clustered in twos and threes up front. Follow it up with a good quake, and you don't have to necessarily go after cleric, at least right away. DSM forces retreats into contorted positions, making it easier for other units to rush in.

[Morning Star]

It's damn refreshing to read and see sets like these being made and used. I hat eseeing the same ol set used time and time again. kudos

[Darque]

Bah..i'm not a huge fan of DSM..don't get me wrong its a very good unit in the right circumstances, but one block can change any game. It's too unpredictable. I prefer to play with more consistent units.

[bludhoundz]

While my mud quakes again.. more even worse, punches your cleric.

Here's the real problem I have with the position of the wisp in that rush--it doesn't allow for the other, really big use of the wisp, which is as a technuique unit. If you have it farther back just a couple squares it still has a spot to hit clerics, and can be used for some defense of your own. Yes it's a little easier to block off, but it won't be LW zapped and if you have GA on the same side, they have to block that first anyways.

Also, comepletely unrelated, but why havn't we considered DSM? Many antis have lots of juicy units clustered in twos and threes up front. Follow it up with a good quake, and you don't have to necessarily go after cleric, at least right away. DSM forces retreats into contorted positions, making it easier for other units to rush in.
Yeah, of course you can get my cleric.. I'm not saying you CANT. But I am saying that I will take probably 2 pieces or more in the process.

I agree with your wisp choice.. unfortunately it is rather easy to kill when used for technique unless kept back. Most strong opponents know better than to let it live.

As for DSM - once you get all the cleric kill factors in, plug in the DSM and you have no room for knights really. The knights simply outlast most of your pieces (even though they've lost a cleric), and they can still give you huge amounts of trouble. Of course, if you get the right spot or use it well, you can pull off the anti-anti perfectly.

[FiReBrAnD]

Bah..i'm not a huge fan of DSM..don't get me wrong its a very good unit in the right circumstances, but one block can change any game. It's too unpredictable. I prefer to play with more consistent units.

I agree with darque about the DSM.. I dislike playing against them and even having them.

[Match Strike]

Yeah, of course you can get my cleric.. I'm not saying you CANT. But I am saying that I will take probably 2 pieces or more in the process.

I agree with your wisp choice.. unfortunately it is rather easy to kill when used for technique unless kept back. Most strong opponents know better than to let it live.

As for DSM - once you get all the cleric kill factors in, plug in the DSM and you have no room for knights really. The knights simply outlast most of your pieces (even though they've lost a cleric), and they can still give you huge amounts of trouble. Of course, if you get the right spot or use it well, you can pull off the anti-anti perfectly.
Err.. my point was that I don't know why the anti-anti has to be a cleric kill rush. I'm not of the opinion that going after cleric is the best way to defeat an anti-rush. In most circumstances I'd rather get scouts or dragon.

[Punishment]

Match Strike

What do you think would be the best way to get an anti?

I like to get the cleric, and play pretty strong defense after that.

I don't really know a better way to beat them. It's hard to kill a scout without extending your neck too far out, and even if you do, they've still got a mud, another scout, etc.

I don't really know what is the best way to beat them. Maybe a bomb, but you'd have to get lucky with blocks and stuff.

Match strike, what do YOU think is the best way to beat an anti, and maybe something more specific than kill the scouts.

I'm looking to have a form advantage over them, and i think a set that can consistantly take out their cleric would work good :)

[Match Strike]

Match Strike

What do you think would be the best way to get an anti?

I like to get the cleric, and play pretty strong defense after that.

I don't really know a better way to beat them. It's hard to kill a scout without extending your neck too far out, and even if you do, they've still got a mud, another scout, etc.

I don't really know what is the best way to beat them. Maybe a bomb, but you'd have to get lucky with blocks and stuff.

Match strike, what do YOU think is the best way to beat an anti, and maybe something more specific than kill the scouts.

I'm looking to have a form advantage over them, and i think a set that can consistantly take out their cleric would work good :)
Well, I think a good way to defeat an anti is to break it's wall. DSM deals enough damage that they'll want to think about retreating even their knights, especially when you can follow it up with a quake and your dragon, even at lowered attack power. Often they'll feel they have no choice but to retreat a unit waaaay back, which you can work to your advantage, as it usually opens up some LOS. GA and even wisp are precision units, dealing out precise amounts of damage to the target of your choice. I feel that precision units work best in tandem with big guns like dragon, and especially DSM, because they give your scouts, wisp, etc, more room to operate. Also, I think DSM makes mud golem more effective, because your opponent is compelled not to let your DSM live, which, if you time it right, means they can't also kill mud, giving you an extra quake... a quake made more devastating by the damage done with DSM.

Instead of going after cleric immediately, wait until they are forced to open up LOS. Manipulate their placement of key units through the use of big attacks. My problem with precision cleric killers is that they often leave an anti's fighting units untouched, and the frost is hard to deal with if you only have one scout left. Here's a form I like (note that scout and dragon should be switched, sorry about that):
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6373/soldrush6sv.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soldrush6sv.jpg)
I like that wisp can hit a cleric that is not carefully defended, and that center scout is a big threat.

I don't like some of the open LOS on cleric, although I'd like to avoid completely frontlining the rush in order to block it.

Thoughts?

[Match Strike]

I've been noticing more rushes lately and fewer antis. Thoughts?

Also, a lot of the rushes have DSM. Which potentially makes me right (at least if they actually work well).


(Bump).

[bludhoundz]

That dsm frontline rush is simple to use, and doesn't have any really strong or glaring weaknesses (that I can think of off the top of my head).

It's just another trend in the freestyling game. They all come to an end and segway into another trend.

[mantis33]

I've been noticing more rushes lately and fewer antis. Thoughts?

Also, a lot of the rushes have DSM. Which potentially makes me right (at least if they actually work well).


(Bump).
I hate DSM's. :mad:
That dsm frontline rush is simple to use, and doesn't have any really strong or glaring weaknesses (that I can think of off the top of my head).

It's just another trend in the freestyling game. They all come to an end and segway into another trend.

I don't wanna brag, but I DID bring back the use of the GA in the rush. ;) Now it seems like everyone's using them. :dry:

[Match Strike]

I don't wanna brag, but I DID bring back the use of the GA in the rush. ;) Now it seems like everyone's using them. :dry:
What do you mean "bring back?" There have always been GA rushes around.

[Just_One_Saint]

I like my muddie on the same side as GA for easy-cleric-killing-action.
But I suck :D

[celdem2]

3 words heh nice set

[BlackSyphon]

does it surprise anyone that the anti-anti rush looks like a ... rush?

logic has never been this convincing ... perhaps TAO's strategical conventions are cyclical! Like on every full moon a turtle will beat a rush ... wait, no...

du

[Match Strike]

Actually, it's not really logical: Anti rushes, hypothetically should be able to beat rushes. That's what they are made for. At least that's what they were made for. The original rushes, in turn, were made to defeat turtles. TAO is an arms race, in large part.

[BlackSyphon]

yes, that is true. But in the time that anti-rushes have been modified to fight against each other, their strength against the rush is not what it used to be.

du

[Match Strike]

True. Which is why we need to start calling them something else. The difference between old antis with furgon and lightning ward and the one sided melee rushes you see today is night and day.

[Ciompi]

True. Which is why we need to start calling them something else. The difference between old antis with furgon and lightning ward and the one sided melee rushes you see today is night and day.
True. Why not call the one sided rush things that are so popular nowadays "power antis" (such as how turtles with knights are typically referred to as power turtles), as opposed to the "true anti," or perhaps the "technique anti?"

[BlackSyphon]

one of the key differences is the LW. The anti-rushes now a days do not implement these as often, and therefore lack a "base" so to speak. This attacking such forms easier, while they have one extra unit.

du

[Punishment]

I use an LW anti-rush.

I consider mine an anti.

This is my set.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/5797/anti1ajl8.jpg

Hasn't lost to a rush yet, but i have some trouble against smart opposite side antis.


This is my other set that does fairly well against non-dsm rushes.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/2650/anti1bqb9.jpg

[Match Strike]

Pun, the first one is very much an anti. It utilizes conservative scout positions, durable units, and lightning ward. The second is a bit harder to classify, but it's definitely more in line with the forms you see nowadays, stylistically at least.