Who should win in this spot?

[falcox]

http://img328.imageshack.us/img328/862/tacticsmx4.jpg

Everyone is fully healed, no wait states, who should win?

[tarvos 6]

Teal, easy.

[Worker]

Teal, easy.I dont agree, you take that witch(only ranged unit) out with the sassy/knight....move the chanty behind the cleric and move the knight/sassy down to the side of the chanty you could force a draw. It all depends on how smart a player teal is.

[tarvos 6]

Trick is taking out witch without losing the other units...... And with 3 knights, its easy to wall out an assassin from hitting the witch.

[KBHoleN1]

Tarvos, you undersetimate the power of a chanty. Especially with a cleric involved, it will take a series of amazing moves to allow teal to mount a winning attack. Sure, you can retreat to your lw and hope blue advances, but even then you run the risk of being outmaneuvered. I'd give the victory to blue 7 out of 10 times.

[tarvos 6]

I vote teal easy win. It would be tough for chanty to freeze all knights without freezing its own units.

[KBHoleN1]

The chanty doesn't havw to freeze EVERY knight ... she can freeze one at a time and let the knight and sassy kill each one. Sounds to me like you don't know how to use a chanty, especially if you think its an EASY win for teal.

And since when is freezing your own units a bad thing. Sometimes its necessary for the win. I would say ist almost necessary for the chanty to move back towards the corner, and use the cleric as a blocker in order to pull off a successful freeze, which usually means the cleric gets forzen as well. The idea is to freeze something, then run the other attackers around enough so she can recover.

[tarvos 6]

Im willing to test this out if someone wants to? Not right now though.... Gotsta be somewhere.

[TeXaS LoNgHoRnS]

The blue wins. The chanty is the most powerful unit in the game if used correctly..and if the blue is good with chanties, he will blow the other guy away

[Cliche]

It all depends on the skill of the two players, but if I had to choose, I'd go with the teal.

[solingro]

You guys are crazy if you think blue has better chance of winning here.

Blue can at most draw even then i wouldn't put money on it.

[Anarchy_United]

Blue, but very close.

[Spirit_Monger]

Really all would depend on how good each player is with their units they have left.

If blue is at least decent to good with chanty, they will win.
If they suck with it, or teal is a pretty good player, teal would win.

[bludhoundz]

Who's move is it?

If it is teal's move, they have it.

Moving the witch in between all 3 knights not only threatens the cleric, but to get a hit on the chanty. One hit on the chanty, then move the knights in. If they try to kill the witch, they won't have time to save chanty and then will probably lose cleric as well, teal taking minor damage in comparison.

If it is blue's move, they could do a few smart things, but I honestly think that teal has it. The chanty can only handle so much, and 3 knights is a force to be reckoned with.

[solingro]

Discussions like this should never be, if X player is good, then this happens, if Y player sucks, he'd get pwned. It should be if this scenario is played out over and over between 2 good players, what are the outcomes and why.

Agree with blud, having a witch makes a lot of difference and shrinks away the chanty advantage.

[dab00z]

I think some people in this thread are really overestimating the chanty. To say blue will win is silly. Blue will tie if teal screws up, and if teal plays well he'll win.

[Myst!]

I'm sorry but those of you are overestimating chanty power. and as long as knights barrier witch, it will be easy to knock out chanty and/or cleric. if teal has at least the intelligence of a four year old. he can win this. doesn't matter how good blue is

[Esko]

Teal can make assassin charge...kill it..if they keep witch alive..kill chanty..then the rest is simple

Blue can sheild chanty...try and stop witch best the can (may have to forget bout cleric) 3 knights...all full hp...that's hard to do if you lose that chanty.

[planktiffy]

i think that blue would win if used chanty correctly

[VAMP7]

http://www.ljplus.ru/img/_d_a_x_/00023674.jpg

[Terps rock]

Love the chanty but two top notched players teal would win... there is no way to stop a slow advance protecting the witch...

[me14k]

chanty team will win.

you have to realize about the assassin bomb. knight/heal/knight/knight gives the bomb.

even without the bomb, i think the chanty person can win

[Sangro]

Bob Saget will jump in the game and take out a machine gun and pwn both of them... ughh

[Match Strike]

chanty team will win.

you have to realize about the assassin bomb. knight/heal/knight/knight gives the bomb.

even without the bomb, i think the chanty person can win

Even if you manage to get an ass-bomb off, what then? You're down to one fighting unit. You'll probably take a knight, right? Well, then they witch cleric or chant, take chant, and you have a knight and cleric or something against two knights, maybe a witch as well.

Also, teal would probably never give you a chance to prime a bomb anyways. They've got too many ways to put pressure on blue.

[Sangro]

Pauly shore= the chanty
Bob saget= teal team leader

bob saget = victorious

[shatterstar]

me14k: seriously moron, whats teral going to do while you prime your bomb. scratch its ass?

i'd have to go with teal.

if i were blue i'd use the knight to run a figting retreat, drawing as many teal knights in as possible.
the witch's best position is the place bludz pointed out. even there, it can be stopped. get the teal knights commited, run the chanty across to block the tile the witch needs to freeze and then freeze. punish frozen units. heal. rinse and repeat. something like that. here the chanty's tactics are more like a frost golem - freeze and kill. the trick here is getting a lot of knights commited. anyone with brains will open up multiple points of attack. even then killing 3 knights is 9 hits with the knihgt. 18 turns.

teal - open 2 flanks up. 1 with a lone knight. 1 with the rest. use 2 knights to run interference against the knight and sassy til the witch can hit the cleric. relatively simple.

swap any unit for a BW and blue has it.

[CRX687]

if I were blue, I'd try to pull off an assbomb and take out a knight with it... then sacrifice my knight to get the witch, and then corner chanty with cleric on one flank... let them hit chanty, heal, paralyze, and force a draw. If I knew my opponent was smart, the key would be to take out witch without losing any units... which wouldn't be possible...

if I were teal, I wouldn't allow the assbomb to ever get off simply because I have a witch. pacifist went over this situation in legends LONG ago, and three knights, played correctly, can easily take down cleric, chanty, and knight no matter how the chanty player moves.

Blue can force a draw at best in the case of a teal mistake... Teal has the obvious upper hand.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I vote teal easy win. It would be tough for chanty to freeze all knights without freezing its own units.

But that's the thing--if the Witch is killed and the Knights are frozen, it's game over, no matter what other units are frozen.

Plus, as KB said, you don't need to capture all three Knights at once. Teal has no healer--as long as you can keep two Knights from attacking the same unit, you can just chanty the first unit that moves in and kill it. Put unit preservation at top priority--teal has no healers, so you can take your time killing teal's units knowing they can't heal; however, blue doesn't have replacement attackers, so blue has to make every effort to keep those last two alive.

Second, if you want to think about it from bludz' perspective, which unit can go next is pivotal. If blue goes first, you can move Assassin diagonally behind the Knight to give the Enchantress a pocket before the Witch can be put into a pocket. This keeps the Assassin in a position where she can be used as a wall unit, without risking attacks by the enemy Knights (unless they want to chance the well-being of their Knight on a front hit!), or prevent the Witch from attacking unless through own Knight or two moves are made.

If teal goes first, the Witch can be moved into the Knight pocket, and all counter-measures to protect both Chanty and Cleric take at least two moves and ensure the protection of only one, since they can't move far enough away once the Witch is in the pocket. If the Cleric dies, it instantly becomes four attackers vs. two, and the Enchantress becomes meat, since a Knight-Witch attack will always kill it and you can BET teal will be willing to kill the Enchantress through their own Knight!

Then there's always personal perspective. I've played both the theoretical aspects of this game and am familiar with both (my grey game is often centered around teal's situation by late-game and by entire gold philosophy is based on similar defensive situations, though a Furgon always helps), and while I've learned to respect the power of the Chanty, I've also learned how to obliterate it with great zeal and success. I find myself much more comfortable in Teal's shoes; even if I don't go first, I can push my Witch up into that Knight pocket and then immediately break the pocket with the Knight on the left by moving it up to face the blue Knight; no attack is needed, but this gives my Witch a lot of freedom, puts me in a better position with the Knights (a diagonal wall is easier to maneuver than a V), and, best yet, prompts my opponent to attack. From here on out you get one of two scenarios:

1) If my opponent is EXCEEDINGLY smart, the only move from this point on would be to move the Cleric behind the Enchantress, as it's the only Cleric-saving move and keeping all units alive is MUCH more essential for blue than keeping a Knight alive is for teal. If my opponent DOES make this move, I can move the Knight to the right of the witch three spaces forward, which in an abstract sense baits the Enchantress and traps the Knight. What I'm asking my opponent to do here is to try to nab all three Knights with the Enchantress, leaving my Witch as the only available unit. This would be a fatal move for blue; this leaves blue's Enchantress within Witch-burn range and open to all three Knight attacks defocused, while all the while leaving the Cleric on wait, so blue can't heal Enchantress for two turns in which I Witch + Knight it into oblivion! The score is 3 Knights, Witch vs. Knight, Assassin, Cleric; game over!

2) If my opponent is NOT exceedingly smart, I will move the Knight adjacent to blue's Knight forward and hit the Cleric for 22 damage. From this point on the smartest move would undoubtedly be to move the Enchantress behind the Cleric and trap the Knight. Move the Knight in front of the Witch forward three spaces, forcing your opponent to retreat the Knight instead of pummeling the trapped Knight to death; kill Cleric on next move, move on to Assassin. After this the worst you can do is draw--if you saved the Witch, victory is guaranteed.

Of course, if his Knight moves forward to attack Witch instead of trapping your Knight after the Cleric attack, you can always Witch burn the Enchantress with the knowledge that if the Cleric heals, it's still dead; the Enchantress is exposed without protection from the Knight, which means it's killable even with only melee; and if you bring down the Enchantress, you're now 3 Knights vs. 1 + Assassin. Teal wins.

Blue is much more difficult, particularly because I'm not proficient with an Enchantress, but I already explained my primary course of action anyway, so this is really quite useless.

If this same situation were played out in Gold, with a Scout, Frost, Cleric, LW, Stone, and Furgon vs. 3 Knights, 2 Scouts and a Dragon, I would bet in favour of the turtler at least 8 out of 10 times, because that's just about my success rate in these situations. However, for grey, even players and all, I'd put my money on teal, 6 out of 10, blue 2 of 10, and draw 2 of 10 (or perhaps blue 1 of 10 and draw 3 of 10), mostly because I better understand the grey game from teal's standpoint, and the delicate balance of the unprotected Chanty is too easily broken (although bludz weaseled out a Draw against me in a very similar situation, I DO blame my own oafishness for putting my two Knights there to begin with just as much as I credit his good play).

[Cuathon]

teal. no doubt. only a n00b could lose as teal to blue.

[Worker]

An example for you haters. It can be pulled off even without the barrierward.... Much easier actually with the knight on side of the chanty in his situation. The best you can do though is a draw....not a win as some people are saying here.



http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/5668/drawxp8.jpg

[Geoffrey]

Well me an Sol know who wins if its 2 knight vs full chanty and full BW, 2 knight always wins. In that situation teal would fuck on blue with ease.

I will gladly beat any person claiming that Blue would win. Also any challengeres want to try and beat my 2 knights with BW and Chanty?

[Worker]

Well me an Sol know who wins if its 2 knight vs full chanty and full BW, 2 knight always wins. In that situation teal would fuck on blue with ease.

Thats a funny statement, it REALLY is. If for nothing else the fact you "always".

[Geoffrey]

Worker if you think you can beat my 2 knights, all i say is...Bring it!

[KBHoleN1]

From my experience, I have played many similar situations, where I am down a few units, but I have a chanty and cleric alive, against my opponents attackers. My strat is always to apply soft, progressive damage to the units my opponent is willing to offer, and hold off the final charge for as long as possible. There are lots of chances to lure attacking knights into a deathtrap with a chanty, especially with blockers to keep her cornered. It's much more difficult to attack the blue position than some people are realizing. Even with a witch.

Granted, there are a few moves teal can make to put immense pressure on that strategy, but the question is, in the heat of battle, will teal make them. I have encountered very few gray players who successfully play with a chanty in the late game (she can win the whole damn thing for you if you kow what you're doing). Teal obviously has the upper hand, but if I were teal I'd like my chances (because I've done this many times, and come out victorious). The game is in teal's hands, to win or lose, I'll give you that. But I've seen way too many grays lose it from this position, because they assume, as many of you have, that the game is already over.

I'll rest my case, in the vast majority of cases, teal wins. Fine. But I know that I could manage more than 2 out of 10 if I had the chanty. That's based on my 3 yrs + experience.

EDIT: I mixed up the colors, fixed now.

[dab00z]

Whether or not you will beat someone who doesn't know what they're doing in this spot is not really relevant, the question was stated pretty explicitly "who SHOULD win." This is a theoretical discussion, not a "who WOULD win assuming both players are pretty average." Your experience doesn't really matter in this case. If you played yourself 10 times, I'm sure you'd win as teal 10 times because you know what to do.

[Worker]

....if you play yourself 10 times it doesnt matter what forms you use or 1v10 YOU WILL STILL WIN. :rolleyes:

[Punishment]

....if you play yourself 10 times it doesnt matter what forms you use or 1v10 YOU WILL STILL WIN. :rolleyes:

2 knights does beat a chanty + bw.

Unless they screw up.

[falcox]

Thanks for the opinions, it looks like both side have their backers. IMHO (I am not an expert), I think teal has a slight edge, but a very small mistake on either side could be decisive. With 4 attackers (1 ranged) and 3 blockers, keeping the chanty alive could be tough.

I was blue & the game ended in a draw (no contact between units in 30 turns). I feel ok but not great about this, as I have only 2 attacking units to his 4.

Teal kept pressing forward and played very well. I kept retreating looking for cracks in his formation. He kept his knights together to stop any hit&run damage without inflicting serious harm in return. He kept his witch close enough to screw up any chanty action and was close several times to witch burning the cleric. I baited him with a sucker attack on the chanty or assassin several times and he never bit.


My cleric started on the Opposite back row and started running when the witch came forward. I wanted the fight away from his LW, as I had a powerful, aggressive freeze setup except his LW would kill focus.

[Worker]

2 knights does beat a chanty + bw.

Unless they screw up.what does that have to do with what you quoted?

[Punishment]

Nothing at all.

I just wanted to reply to you and was too lazy to scroll down to quick reply.

[solingro]

Thats a funny statement, it REALLY is. If for nothing else the fact you "always".

Punishment meant to quote this one I am sure ;) .

[Dove]

Teal. Move in slowly and strategically. Force blue's units out to keep Cleric and/or chanty alive, then pick them away with Knights and finish with a Witch. Alternately, if blue comes fully out, teal has more brute force and more maneuverability, come in with 2 Knights, draw Chanty out, then kill her and it's over.

Alternately again, if blue just huddles up, move in the witch with a wall of protection from the Knights.

[philrox]

You guys are so funny.. teal may have the advantage with the knights, but blue has the chanty. move the chanty behind the knight, wait a turn, and if the teal player doesn't move knight's or does something stupid the game is yours. Unless of course the teal player will attack his own units for a win. take out the witch, plan correctly, and blue should win. The only way teal could win is if they were smarter and retreated to the lw more.

[MoonShine]

yea thats true, it all depends on skill level

[Cuathon]

teal should always win. if it doesnt, you screwed up or the other guy is way better. although you should still have won even if it was bottle playing blue.

[philrox]

lol..even if bottle was playing blue xD

[The Coder]

Azul. No contest.

[Myst!]

the coder...you seriously have got to be kidding me....open your freaking eyes....

[Ludican]

I think Blue gunna win. But it might be a hard win

[Worker]

I think we should stop debating and play some games with those forms. KBHolen1 and I will take blue. Lets see you guys run the table. :eek: a draw game is all we need to put you to shame. Remember ....you people who were vocal said "always, unless they make a mistake" Getting outplayed isnt a mistake. Teal lovers are you up to the challenge?

[Dresicos]

Exellent Idea I would love battle with whatever set you arn't using =)

[Worker]

Exellent Idea I would love battle with whatever set you arn't using =)I am taking the chanty and cleric ^^

[Dresicos]

Oky doky I will meet you on rev in 5 min?

[Anarchy_United]

For someone less lazy than me, this could be an interesting tourney...

[Dresicos]

Ok me and worker tried this out


I was Teal
He was blue

First game - I went first - I won
Second game - He went first - I won

[solingro]

Nice job Dresicos, thanks for making rest of us teal supporters look good :cool:

[Dresicos]

=) Well I would challenge anybody with the Blue set also and my name is Dresicos not Dresico =)

[solingro]

my fingers got tired :(

[Dresicos]

To Bad! =)

[Worker]

In that exact situation it indeed is quit difficult to lose if you are teal. :)

Though if the units were positioned differently I believe its possible.

[The Coder]

the coder...you seriously have got to be kidding me....open your freaking eyes....

Dude. Chanty Pwnz.
It wasn't a hard decision to make for me. And look, just cause dresicos showed it.
And its coder.

[mantis33]

It all depends on the skill of the two players, but if I had to choose, I'd go with the teal.

Agreed. With equally matched players, teel should win.

[The Coder]

Agreed. With equally matched players, teel should win.

I don't know... It depends on a lot of factors. the only way to truly know is to set a bot to go through every possible move and outcome. And thats way too much effort. Then again, we could use it to settle a lot of disputes like this... Hmm.... No. Too much effort. :p

[Dresicos]

No matter what you do that cleric of theres is dead soon enough but if you get chanty into a corner and paralzye 1 by 1 then you will win. If I would of skipped 1 turn I would of lost the first game but oh well I know what I am doing =)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Dude. Chanty Pwnz.
It wasn't a hard decision to make for me. And look, just cause dresicos showed it.
And its coder.

Assuming you're making any attempt at being serious here, that has to be the least educated post I've seen so far.

How much does a chanty own after it's been defocused?

[Dresicos]

How much does a chanty own after it's been defocused?

Psh, Chanty pwns defocused! Expecially with 3 turn wait and 3 knights right around her :p

[audiokonig]

no way to tell outcome without know skill lvl of both players, having a dmw changes alot but chanty sould never be underestimated, it is possible to take teal, but on the other hand it would be hard for chanty to freeze all knites leaving it open for a hit then it cant move for 3 turns, in that case no contest teal wins

[Magician]

I would rather be teal if teal had first turn. Actually, I would rather be teal in both cases. :cool:

I'll post a new one, if you all are bored off that problem.

~Mag

[Realist]

This is an interesting thread.

[Dresicos]

=\ its fun to play them out...

So if mag posts a next one I will try it :D

[Realist]

Take away the witch from teal, will it still win?

[KBHoleN1]

Not a chance. Chanty would pwn the hell out of those knights. Maneuver the sassy and knight to block the other attackers after you freeze. And the cleric gives you at least an extra hit the chanty can take.

[Dresicos]

=\ No, easy as that.

That unit is essential to lead either the sassy or the knight in or both.

[Realist]

I disagree.

I think teal can at least draw without the witch. It has a nice LW! And blue lacks the firepower for good knight killing.

[Dresicos]

=\

But played correctly the chanty side would just own the living hell out of the teal.

SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE: Ohio is gonna win tonight.

<------Lives in Ohio :cool:

[KBHoleN1]

I disagree.

I think teal can at least draw without the witch. It has a nice LW! And blue lacks the firepower for good knight killing.

Yes, the knights can retreat and play for a draw, but technically you asked if teal could win. Even then, a sassy bomb can be set up eventually, and then a knight or chanty rush may be more feasible. Blue still has some options for offense despite the lw. I have played many a game where you can force your opponent away from the front of a lw, and secure a good freeze on the ward.

[Realist]

Yes, the knights can retreat and play for a draw, but technically you asked if teal could win. Even then, a sassy bomb can be set up eventually, and then a knight or chanty rush may be more feasible. Blue still has some options for offense despite the lw. I have played many a game where you can force your opponent away from the front of a lw, and secure a good freeze on the ward.

My disagreement is separate from my draw defense. I think teal can win, though perhaps it needs some luck. It just needs to advance its knights intelligently such that the chanty is in danger and cannot freeze. Then kill the chanty, cleric, and you'll still have numerical advantage.

[Ol' Time]

Turqoise should win here. Pretty easily, lure the knight an assassin away with the witch and then just seperate your knight and finish the chanty (it would probably work)

[Mr. LeGenD]

Theres always some ass wipe to start drama with these threads, heres a true statement, if you know how to work an enchanty, real well you would win. But if it was some noob, then he would lose. Thats basically it this thread should be locked it's just provoteing more drama froobs.

[Lightning lion]

blue,if smart.since the witch can kills the knights or the enchantress can stun them.its quite easy in this match for blue

[Azer]

Teal gets the win. It'll be a hard-earned one, and the witch is definitely going to die, and maybe even a knight too, but teal wins.

Lets see what blue can do:
1)Hide in a corner and prepare for an ass-bomb. Teal moves in the witch and goodbye!
2)Attack. Yea. That won't work. 2 1/2 offensive units against 4 (I consider the chanty in this case to be a 1/2 offensive unit.) Witch - knight - knight kills pretty much everything... And it only plays to teal's advantage to be defensive. However, you gotta get that witch... but doing so almost surely means either assassin or knight will die, and thats gonna be a real bummer.
3)Hope for the draw. With three knights, Teal could still take out even a corner-hide chanty.

This is what teal can do:
1) Use that witch! Sure, it's your only range unit, but blue is most likely not going to start charging the Chanty. And even if he does, its possible to manuveur the 3 knights so that not all 3 can get frozen at once, but only 2, and the remaining one can kill off the Chanty. So use that witch on the assassin. Why? Because its the easiest to kill. That might seem like a stupid reason, but in the endgame, an unit down is a unit down... Furthermore, if blue was smart, he could maneuver the assassin and knight so that they protect the chanty when she freezes. With a unit down, theres more gaps through which to attack a focussed chanty.
2) Fan out the knights. A big clump like that is just waiting to get frozen... Sure, blue can't do it immediately, but some creative maneuvering...
3) Slowly advance. First and foremost, the chanty is a threat. Thats it. A threat. Think of her as an uber LW. If you can rush past a LW, then you can outmaneuver a chanty. You've got 4 units with which to possibly bait and attack the chanty. Use them! Second, you've got your own threat. That witch. With her around, blue'll always be thinking 4 times about using that chanty. With the chanty down, blue's pretty much screwed, so he's gotta be careful. That enables you, as teal, to be aggressive (just not careless).

[jedi knight]

blue would win easily if wise.if not smart,teal.

[C4nt t0uch th1s]

The blue wins. The chanty is the most powerful unit in the game if used correctly..and if the blue is good with chanties, he will blow the other guy away

I agree, chanty is the best he uses it in the right way the other persons done..:cool:

~c4nt t0uch th1s

[fire swordkirby]

blue would win in a BIGGGGGGG landslide

[-57-]

blue would win in a BIGGGGGGG landslide

Please tell me you're joking ;)

[lightning lord7]

hmmm this is a good match right now.the enchantress or the withc are the character that need to survive.after both of those 2 are gone,it depends how the knights attack in every spot.so,it relies on their power pieces.the first one to lose their power unit is porbraly the one who will lose

[bludhoundz]

If some people really disagree, just have equal calibur players play as each side, and then have them switch off.

[celdem2]

me nough said :D


http://r2.fodey.com/1ac14d08eb33e4d37b35c4228fb8056a8.1.gif (http://www.fodey.com/generators/animated/ninjatext.asp)

[Office_Shredder]

I would say teal. The key wouldn't be to kill the chanty, it would be to kill the assassin without letting the chanty freeze anything. If blue backs into a corner the witch will be game ending, so blue has to keep at least a bit of a buffer between the cleric and the knights, and that's where the easy assassin kill can come into play.

At least, that's what I would try for.

[Mad-Eye]

I would say teal. The key wouldn't be to kill the chanty, it would be to kill the assassin without letting the chanty freeze anything. If blue backs into a corner the witch will be game ending, so blue has to keep at least a bit of a buffer between the cleric and the knights, and that's where the easy assassin kill can come into play.

At least, that's what I would try for.

I agree, If the teal could save the witch long enough so one of the knights can hit the chanty, then the witch could come in, but if the teal doesn't go for the chant ASAP, the blue would win, most likely, it's mostly who is the better player.

[Azer]

most likely, it's mostly who is the better player.

But what we're discussing is what if the two players are of the SAME skill level? The question is which side has the innate advantage. And I still stand by my old theory and say teal.

[Ninai]

Next pretty old thread brought by celdem2..

But this situation is interesting. Id put my money to blue. If he rushes forward with two of his knights,supported by witch from backwards(which can even die, but functions as a threat for enchantress and cleric) he should win this.

[Azer]

You meant teal. =P

[Ninai]

The darker one.

[philrox]

This arguement could go on forever. It all depends on the skill levels of each person and who makes the first mistake. For example, if a newbie grey vses Bottle, most likely bottle will win. If it was say.. gig vs Mich, it all depends on who can plan better and who can think long enough without making a stupid mistake. Example: moving witch a space too close to lw.

[solingro]

full hp Knight vs full hp pyro, who wins? I guess it depends on the players. I mean the person with full knight might be a total noob and press F5 when you tell him to or doesn't even know how to attack a unit.

When does the skill of a player matter when discussing which side has the advantage. In tourny when there's a d/c do people say teal has the advantage but I know A is a better player than B so therefore teal would still end up losing.

With that said, I am sure getting two good players playing out couple more times to find the optimal moves, teals would win every time (or at least high percentage of time) assuming no mistakes were made by either players.

[Mad-Eye]

This arguement could go on forever. It all depends on the skill levels of each person and who makes the first mistake. For example, if a newbie grey vses Bottle, most likely bottle will win. If it was say.. gig vs Mich, it all depends on who can plan better and who can think long enough without making a stupid mistake. Example: moving witch a space too close to lw.

I've already said that, twice. :p

[Azer]

But we're not talking about skill level. We're saying if the two people have the same skill, who starts off with the advantage, even if it's ever so slight.

[philrox]

I've already said that, twice. :p

Apparently they don't listen to us Mad-Eye.