Automaton

[AlabamaBoy]

Automaton : Human Contraption

Power: 26

Health: 42

Armor: 20%

Blocking: 40%, 20%

Movement: 3

Recovery: 2

Range: 3, plow

Ability:

1)The Automaton's Attack plows through a destroyed target with remaining damage.

Example: If there was a scout adjacent to the Automaton, and a cleric two spaces behind the scout, the Automaton if the attck hit the scout and destroyed it, the remaining damage would be dealth to the cleric.

Example: If a unit blocks then the attack DOES NOT plow through it, thus tring to attack through a ward would be useless unless the ward was low on health.

Like other contraptions though without other surviving units this unit is void and you cannot win with it. Thus its abilities are a double edged sword.

Though the Automaton can attack diagonaly the plow ability is only available in straight lines.

Comments and Critisisms welcome. Thank you.

Edit: If the Automaton strikes through the first unit its plow ability makes it move the remaining spaces to the next target.

[War Hero]

lol i like that one but too bad you cant make a picture of it that would be cool ;)

[AlabamaBoy]

Actualy I minor in art and i have tomorow off.... so here goes.

[War Hero]

lol this will be interestiny :D

[AlabamaBoy]

Sorry cant post it, its horrible, i did pm it to you though.

[scb]

The first problem I have withthis unit is that it is mobile, perfectly killable, but not an endgame unit. Why not? Units should only not be endgame units when they can't be killed in the endgame.
Otherwise, I like this unit. It's a bit too much like the dragon, though. How about 20 power and double damage to the unit it plows through to, to a maximum of 20 damage to that unit as well? That's max lightning-ward damage, but since it has to multi-target for that it's no better than a pyromancer (10+20 vs. 15+15). The maximum is mainly for plowing through shrubs, which would let the entire attack plow through.

[AlabamaBoy]

super chocolate bear, the damage does not carry over if it deals ten to a scout in the way then it does a maximum of 14 to the next. but it only plows through if the unit it hits first is destroyed otherwise the whole 26 damage is dealt to the first unit it hits.

[scb]

Someone negged my previous post, claimed that I mocked the unit for no good reason. [EDIT: It was not you. The neg came out neutral. Who did that?!] but that doesn't make sense. I did not mock your unit, and I gave reasons for everything I said. Most of my post was about my suggestion; only the following was about your actual unit:
The first problem I have withthis unit is that it is mobile, perfectly killable, but not an endgame unit. Why not? Units should only not be endgame units when they can't be killed in the endgame.
Otherwise, I like this unit. It's a bit too much like the dragon, though.
Specificially, I disliked:
1) It's not an endgame unit, but I can't find any good reason to have it not be an endgame unit.
2) The attack pattern and damage are very similar to those of the dragon. While the ability is original, I would prefer that it not be too similar to other units.

I think it will be very easy to make use of the plowing-through ability against shrubs. This unit would be able to kill two shrubs and hit a unit behind the shrubs in one shot, like a super Beast Rider.

[AlabamaBoy]

But the chance of it having the opportunity of striking through two shrubs and dealing 26 damage to the creature on the other side is rare, and probobly wouldnt occur.

[Mr. LeGenD]

The plow attack seems interesting ... maybe you should show some, demo's of it so people get what your '' saying '', nice work by the way :)

[dragonkirby]

it's would be good if you made a pic of it, its not overpowered but not underpowered

[AlabamaBoy]

Um no, a picture does not make a unit good or bad. If you have nothing real to say. Please dont.

[scb]

I think it is overpowered, even without the plow ability, though. 26 is a lot of damage for a ranged attack and a mobile unit. I really think it should go down... with some bonus to make the plow ability more valuable. Perhaps the power drops by 5 for every tile between the Automaton and the first unit hit?

[Phyrexia]

There is a reason why it has to not be an end game unit; it's way overpowered.

Average movment, more then fair blocking, Good HP, Less then avergae turn recovery for a unit liek this (less is more), Sick Sick armour and power. so whats the catch? ohh.. A more then fair ranged attack.
It's a dumbed down dragon without the 2 units on the feild price.
It's not even dunmbed down, 2 turn wait!!!!

The non-end-game attribute does nothing to balance the unit.
At the very least, bring the turn wait up to 3.

Yes these are opionions.

Automaton Vs Dragon tyrant
HP: 42 Vs 68
Power: 26 Vs 28
Armour: 20 Vs 18
Blocking: 40 Vs 40
Recovery: 2 Vs 3
Movement: 3 Vs 4
Attack range: A > D

Let this speak for itself. Health smealth.

[AlabamaBoy]

Lmao Phyrexia everything is different except the blocking.

[Phyrexia]

There is a reason why it has to not be an end game unit; it's way overpowered.

Average movment, more then fair blocking, Good HP, Less then avergae turn recovery for a unit liek this (less is more), Sick Sick armour and power. so whats the catch? ohh.. A more then fair ranged attack.
It's a dumbed down dragon without the 2 units on the feild price.
It's not even dunmbed down, 2 turn wait!!!!

The non-end-game attribute does nothing to balance the unit.
At the very least, bring the turn wait up to 3.

Yes these are opionions.

Automaton Vs Dragon tyrant
HP: 42 Vs 68
Power: 26 Vs 28
Armour: 20 Vs 18
Blocking: 40 Vs 40
Recovery: 2 Vs 3
Movement: 3 Vs 4
Attack range: A > D

Let this speak for itself. Health smealth.

26-28= -2 Power
20-18= +2 Armour
0
_____________________________
40-40= 0 Blocking
_______________________________
-(2-3)= +1 d recovery + d movement = 0
3-4= -1
__________________________
I know this is not proof that they even out (because 2 points in power does not equal 2 points in armour etc) but it's clearly close.

and then there is only the HP, and range
attack slightly better, hp way below.

So yes, DT is much better than this unit.
2 units worth better? No @#$%ing way.

I would prefer 2 of these guys to a DT. 2 units that can be part of the front line baracades but can still inflict mucho harm when desiered. AND WITH 2 WAIT!

Think about it.

Yes these are opinions.

[AlabamaBoy]

News Flash, you cant get two berserkers, you can only get one of these.

[Phyrexia]

News Flash, you cant get two berserkers, you can only get one of these.

What?

EDIT:
How do beserkers enter in to it?

If you are saying that since you can't have 2 of these then it does not matter that someone would prefer 2 of them over a DT, you need to consider it more.

I would prefer a 4th knight as a grey over many other units, does that matter since i can't have a 4th knight? Yes.

Think aboiut it.

Edit:

This implies that the knight is better than the other unit. Similarly, if 2 aoutomatons are better then a DT, but they take up the same amount of units, then 1 automaton is better then half a DT. Then cancelling comon factors, 1 automaton is better then a dt, since a dt is 2 units.

Really think about it logically, no offense but truth is truth.

[AlabamaBoy]

You wouldnt be able to have two of these

[Phyrexia]

SEE ABOVE

OR think about it this way. DT = dragon tyrant, AM = automaton, U=unit

DT = 2U
AM = 1U

2 AM > DT ,
2(1/2(AM) > 1/2(DT) , 2(1/2) = 1
AM > 1/2(DT) (1)

, but

DT = 2U = 2AM
1/2DT = U = AM, so AM already has twice U on DT, then plugging into (1) we get

AM > DT

this does not say that 1 AM is more powerfull than 1 DT, IT says that AM is a more proficient unit to have. You get more out of it since you can add another unit that is more powerfull than (DT - AM). and btw DT - AM < AM

[scb]

2 knight > dragon. Also, you forgot the dragon's teleport and unblockability (there's a big difference between 26 blockable and 28 unblockable. Unblockable is about 1.5 times as good.)

I agree this unit is too powerful for one unit, but it isn't like the dragon. It isn't worth two. Please, drop the fuzzy math and compare it with something closer. The only things it has in common with the dragon is the attack range and blocking.

[AlabamaBoy]

Thank you scb.

[Phyrexia]

2 knight > dragon. Also, you forgot the dragon's teleport and unblockability (there's a big difference between 26 blockable and 28 unblockable. Unblockable is about 1.5 times as good.)

I agree this unit is too powerful for one unit, but it isn't like the dragon. It isn't worth two. Please, drop the fuzzy math and compare it with something closer. The only things it has in common with the dragon is the attack range and blocking.

somehow i got it on my head that it was also unblockable, i guess the way everyone was talking about it powing through without mentioning that it was only if it did not block. ( it was mentioned once)

I also said it is not worth two nor one, but somewhere in between.

Ummm, the power differs by 2, the armour by 2, please dont tell me scb thinks that is unsimillar. It blocks and recieves damage ALMOST exactly liek the dragon. And it attacks, onlt if you ignore unblockability, ALMOST exactly like the dragon.

Now im not saying that it is like the dragon, im saying that players would choose one or the other or both, because they would be used for simmilar reasons (ignore shrub teleport tricks). So what i am really trying to say is not that it is like the dragon, as much as, it would add nothing to the game.

[scb]

In my opinion, armor is really part of health, with the formula:
Toughness=(Health+12)*(100-armor)/100-12

Dragon = 86
Automaton = 56
Knight = 71

Armor changes and power changes are not at all the same, as the stone golem demonstrates. A change in power is much more significant.

My 1.5* unblockability modifier isn't quite right, since the ability to kill units is very important. For that reason, I suggest that this unit's power be lowered below the cleric-killing level (perhaps to the power of a knight).

[JesusCraig]

The ability to kill units is important, but so is the ability to hurt units or the ability to disrupt focus. As phrexia may have ignored the dragon's unblockable ability, and this ones blockable ability (which I questioned myself since he said if the ward was at low health the plow would work), SCB you are ignoring the tactical ramifications of the plow ability.

I think the whole discussion is unimportant, since the units don't make any sense to be compared, but the conclusions we draw are similar, the automaton is overpowered.

First, it allows you to do critical damage and roll the remaining amount unto other units, which in itself is significant for an attack, however with such a high attack power it becomes a very strong ability.

Fundamentally I think most of my thoughts on the overpowered nature of this unit comes from the ambiguity of much of its ability.

The plow attack you says makes the automaton move closer, does that mean the automaton moves adjacent to a unit when it attacks? If so, what happens when you use the unit on a unit diaganol to yours, or if you wanna attack from the side when a frontal is also possible, which will it choose to do? If it does move with the attack, its movement is actually considerably higher. If it moves, how does the line of sight work for units which are within range but cannot be reached?

Answer these questions and then I can hopefully be more informative.

[AlabamaBoy]

It can only plow in striaght lines.

[scb]

We are ignoring the plow ability intentionally. Since we both believe that the unit is overpowered, we can ignore abilities that make the unit stronger without cheating in favor of our point. Also, since the plow ability only works in straight lines, it doesn't mean much most of the time. This attack pattern is basically what I thought the dragon's was for a long time - I found out I was wrong when I unexpectedly won a battle while fooling with the furgon after having given up hope. It's an interesting story (stop reading now if you aren't interested in an old battle report).

My last attack units were a pyromancer and a mud golem. He had the mud golem paralyzed by a frost golem, and was trying to kill my pyromancer with a dragon at 4 damage (the dragonspeaker and pyromancer were paralyzed by my enchantresses some distance away, along with I think his scout). He also had a stone golem floating around, and was stoned his dragon occasionally, when he had nothing better to do. I wore his frost golem down to 15 health while he wore my pyromancer down to 3 (it had been hurt earlier, and not fully healed). Final turn: My pyromancer was on his back row, right next to his frost golem which was also on his back row. His dragon was one step away diagonally, not next to the frost golem. I furgoned his dragon... and he surprised me by surrendering and informing me that his dragon could not shoot the pyromancer diagonally, and therefore could not prevent my pyromancer from killing the frost golem and releasing my superior mud golem.

[JesusCraig]

Edit: If the Automaton strikes through the first unit its plow ability makes it move the remaining spaces to the next target.

This is the line I'm referring to, it says if the unit automaton strikes through the first unit, the plow ability makes it move the remaining spaces to the next target.

It is confusing because:
You say if it is utilizing plow it moves the remaining spaces, so if there are two units in a row, one of which is 2 spaces away and one of which is 3, and I attack the one two spaces away, I stay in the same spot, however if it kills the unit, i move ahead two and am now adjacent with that unit?
My problem came with conceptualizing why this scenario was true, why would a ranged attack require its secondary ability to be melee, and how would such a thing occur?

If it is the case that the automaton takes the place of the unit it has just killed to finish dealing damage, then the potential ramifications are much larger, because for one, your increasing the units movement range in special situations, and your adding a unit which also has the capability of taking an enemy units spot after it's death even if it's moved already, countering much of what a player can do to prevent weak situations. (Example being plowing through a unit into a cleric, your now adjacent to the cleric, in addition to having done it some damage.)

SCB you accuse phrexia of fuzzy math and then suggest some of the fuzziest logic I've ever seen.
You are ignoring this units actual special ability, which makes it overpowered, not the stats, because you already think it is overpowered. How does that statement make any sense to you? The stats of a unit are secondary to any of its abilities, stats can be easily compensated whichever way they need to
be, but abilities are the reason we create units. Not to mention abilities are the defining characteristics upon which stats may be settled, in order to show the unit is overpowered you must show that it's abilities and stats are too powerful together.

[scb]

Yes, but if it is overpowered without the ability and the ability does not make it weaker, then it is overpowered. I do not have to consider abilities that make it stronger, unless it turns out that the stats are not overpowered.
Also, I do not think the ability makes it much more powerful. It works only in a few select situations, so I am suspicious of your attempt to claim that it makes the unit overpowered by itself. If it had a dragon attack pattern (i.e. no diagonal shots) and a 20-damage attack, I would call it balanced. The ability makes it interesting, and slightly more powerful, but not enough to unbalance what I just said.

Here's my argument in a clearer form:
*The power of the stats > balanced
*The power of the ability > 0
~The power of the stats + the power of the ability > balanced
(*=assumption, ~=conclusion)

As for the moving during the attack, I don't mind that possibility; I have created units that moved as part of their attack every single time. The traveling attack mechanic will always work due to the LOS requirement. I think that the traveling attack is part of the plow ability, and I think it's OK there, although I wouldn't have bothered with any traveling attack in this unit.

[AlabamaBoy]

:-\ its easily killable, and it is not an endgame unit, both of these factors make up for its powerful attack abilities.

[DarkMist_]

I think that the unit is relatively balanced, tilting towards the overpowered side. In truth, his plow ability is rather circumstantial, and wont happen much, or even at all over the course of a game.

I think that you should boost up his health to 45, and lower his power to 24. 26 damage is pretty big for a single unit with the other good stats it has.

[AlabamaBoy]

No. 26 to 24 is not that big a difference.

1) Still doesnt kill spellcasters.

2) Still takes over half a scouts health.

3) Still kills cleric.

[Phyrexia]

Still has 2 turn wait
sitll has range better thana DT's.
Still hared to kill then half of the available units today.

Even if you even out the power, nifty range ability, and better than par blocking, armour, health combo,
I will still be unsatisfied because it would still own mages.

and then you put wait time up to 3, and then it still owns mages.

Tau needs units that are equivalant, but make for different stratagies. Not that make for stratagies that are already used, but are a god replacment for some unit Y.

[scb]

Actually, 26 would leave more to roll over, and would make a difference in killing some units (Every point counts!). However, the main problem is that this kills the cleric so easily, so it does need to go below 24.

That range isn't super, though. It's better than the DT's, but the DT's is poor. Compare it with the GA. I think this attack pattern is about as good as the GA's. Sure, it's completely different, but I think it's equally good.

It's blockable, so it should own mages. That makes up for not doing much to a knight.

I agree that the special isn't that significant, however. There's got to be some way of making the rollover happen more often. But then, we're moving toward making it like a BR.

However, it is not a total replacement for any one unit.

[Phyrexia]

It doesn't replace a perticular unit. But it would be a must-have-unit. Must-have units replace non-must-have-units. Look at what happened to the assasin. It's not that another unit was lke she is, but that units got upgraded, and she can not compete anymore.

[scb]

It's the beast rider. She really doesn't have much to offer that the beast rider can't do better. Maybe the bomb, but that is seldom used in high-skill games.

Look at the pyromancer, most people say he's underpowered, he gets used all the time. It's the controversial effect, and the well-known few uses that nothing else can do.

You're bringing up the big dilemma that in order to be used, a unit must be able to replace some other. New ideas only get used if they are better than old ones; otherwise, no one bothers to change. A unit less necessary than the knight but more necessary than the assassin pushes the assassin out of the picture. We can't make all the units equal without either taking away the game's strategy are getting a rock-paper-scissors situation (even more than there is now). Let's not worry about pushing old units out of the picture.

[Phyrexia]

What is wrong with rock papper sciccors? oh yes, the game is decided on the first turn.

Well... this is not nesessary, take starcraft for example. I hop esomeone has played SC. There are 3 races and it is in rock papper sciccor form. Byt not quite. At the higher level of play, there are contingincies available to each race to be able to cope with the race that usually defeats them.

When i say rock papper scissors you must realize that these batttles occour with 10 units each, like rock papper sciccors and you pick 10 i pick ten, ecept that there is game play which changes everything.

What i was saying was that new units can be better in some sense and worse in others. Of course that is obvious. But there are many ways to do this. Switching power, Hp, blocking, and leaving attack pattern practically the same as many other units is, well, my least favorite. I would prefer a unit that insites new formation options. New set combinations, find a use for that long lost assasin, something besides something obviously stronger than what we already have that works well in the formation you have been playing with for months.
And while some ppl may be on CAU to make sure that units that are usable in their turtle, or formation x, get created, i am here to influence that it doesn't happen.

[Celest]

so its like a robot..but more powerful than a witch but a lil less powerful than a dragon?hmm..very intersting

[AlabamaBoy]

Unless he goes through a unit with 3 or less health he will not kill the cleric.

And there is no way he would get to the cleic with his wait time.