Phyrexia's units (1 of 3): Voltaic Golem

[Phyrexia]

Voltaic Golems are tall with very broad shoulders. They are so tall that they have to bend over and touch thier knees whenever they attack. They open their mouths to exhale a scream of lightning bolts.

Name: Voltaic Golem
Power: 8 unblockable
Hp:60
Blocking:0
Armor: None
Movement: 3
Range: L.O.S: Fires 5 bolts of streaming lightning. Each bolt makes it's
way to one of the 5 squares. I.e anyone one of the four areas depicted
bellow. The dark red area is a possible choice.

Diagram A
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Turn recovery: 2

Additional information:

Since metal is a conductor, Armor works in opposition. What would normally
be subtracted from the damage is in turn added on. A unit may be in L.O.S.
of up to 3 bolts at once. (Only if the unit is adjacent to the voltaic golem)
The unit receives damage for each bolt he or she is in LOS of. Armor is
calculated individually for each individual bolt that a sinlge unit recieves
rounded up. (not the total damage recieved). For example, A unit with armor
30 who is hit by 3 bolts, takes 8(100+30)% = 10 damage for each bolt, 3X10
= 30 damage. This would be wrong 24(100+30)% = 31.


So now that you know about the Voltaic Golem here are my thoughts:

Just before we get started i wanted to refute a few lame arguments that I have noticed in other threads. The general arguments go like this: "It's just a [known unit] with this added and that taken away". Please take the time to reflect on the fact that, unless I restrict myself to makeing a furgon, stone golem, or other non-offensive unit, this could be said about nearly every unit currently in use today. Also notice that just because a unit is less powerfull than another does not mean that it is not a great unit. The scout is surely more powerfull than the beast rider, yet the beast rider is great in it's own right.

1.) More on understanding the attack pattern. Since Voltaic Golems use L.O.S. It may be helpfull to imagine a scout, who fires 5 arrows to 5 squares just as they fire 5 bolts of lightning to 5 squares. The mechanics are pretty much the same. Imagine that there were 5 enemy units all lined up in a row with the closest unit being 3 squares away from you Voltaic Golem and that there are no other units inbetween your Voltaic Golem and these units.

XXXXXXX The pink are enemy units, the purple: you.
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XXXXXXX
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XXXXXXX

Each enemy units would recieve a single bolt. Voltaic Golems must aim in this manner. They send 5 bolts to 5 squares as depicted above and each bolt will hit the unit as long as there is nothing in the way. If there is something in LOS then that unit will take the bolt instead. Let's Look at the different LOS's patterns that are possible. (The other two are symetric so juts reflect the blue and yellow LOS's acroos the red LOS)


XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
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So any unit in LOS of the blue bolt, or outer bolt, would stop the blue bolt from reaching the end of it's LOS path. The same is true for the red bolt, or inner bolt, and the yellow bolt. (Or middle bolt becuase it is in the middle of the outer and inner bolt)
So blue=outer, yellow=middle, and red=inner.

Notice that the outer bolts share a square in their LOS with a square in the LOS of the yellow bolts. If a unit were in this square they would take both bolts. Also, the LOS of the inner bolt is shared by the LOS of both of the middle bolts. That is, there is a square in which if any unit were on it, that unit would be in LOS of both yellow bolts and the red bolt at the same time.
This unit would take 3 bolts.

Below is a diagram of the attack pattern when you mix all 5 bolts' LOS's and take the green ones to be the ones in LOS of a blue and a yellow bolt. The orange is in LOS of the red and both yellow bolts.


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You are the purple square. The 3 only other choices are depicted below.

XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX


NOTE: Bolts would not be colored in this manner.

2.) Hopefully you agree that, if anything, this unit is a little tiny bit overpowerd. This is crucial for my following arguments that try to persuade you to think otherwise. If the general census is that the Voltaic Golem is underpowered, that can be easily fixed by raising the HP, Power by 1 or 2, or a little of both.

3.) Now, before we get started on how powerfull or unpowerfull a Voltaic Golem is, I just want to mention that the
quality of the Voltaic Golem is in it's attack pattern.

4.) Ok, so it can do a heap of damage, potenially 8X5 = 40. "Wow" you say, "That's more then any other unit can do!" Well this is simply not so. DSM can do 27 damage to 5 units that's 135 potential damage. And Mud golem can do 15X4 + 10X8 + 5X16 = 220! (of course the chance that this opportunity arrises is practically 0)"Hey Phyrexia, thanks for poiting that out, why havn't I been using those guys as much as I should have been?" Well that is for two reasons, mainly because the damage is divided among several units, so they can easilly be healed by a cleric as if it nothing ever happened. "Not true about the DSM, he does 27 to each!" Well, yea that seems very powerfull to me also, i guess the reasoning as to why that it is fair is that you have to waste 2 potential spots in your set on a dragon that now only has 16 power. -Anyways, the same reasoning is ture for the Voltaic Golem. It's not that powerfull.

5.)The 2nd reason is that you have a high likely hood of having a friendly unit in the way. Nobody wants to deal a chunk of damage to their own unit. Imagine you have your Voltaic golem behind your knights for protection. A Voltaic Golem can not "attack over" freindly units like the scout and the pyromancer can. Sure he may get a few bolts though, but if there are any friendly units on the 3 squares in front of him, each one will get hit also. This means that to use the Voltaic Golem you would have to march him to the front lines.

6.)Another reason why they are not that powerfull.
Idealy you would want an enemy unit directly infront of your Voltaic Golem. This would ensure that the unit recievs 3 bolts. Again there is danger in such a move. Unless the enemy unit is close to your territory, you'll have to march your Voltaic Golem deep into enemy territory. On the other hand if his unit is in your territory, you will probably be hitting one of your own units. 2 more reasons why the Voltaic Golem is not over powered.

Conclusion

While i egknowledge that most of you are hunrgy for the next Furgon a.k.a. a unit with "a totally new ability that does not steam from any other unit in any way", I feel that this unit has much to offer. I know there a lot of offensive units already, but my hope is that Voltaic Golems can make for fun, new, interesting, and above all, tactical battles.

2 more units to come from me, so keep watching.

[AlabamaBoy]

Golems have 60 health.

[Phyrexia]

Golems have 60 health.

Yes, i noticed that golems all (so far) have 60 health and no armor, i forgot to adress this. 'tis true, and thanks for the in depth feed back, much appreciated. I was unsure as to weather or not i could suggest a golem without 60 health, or with movement other than 2. then i noticed that there are ecceptions to other golem sterotypes. Mud has movment 6, stoney has armor 30. I figured one more exception couldn't hurt. At least i kept the turn reecovery at 2, which is one of the reasons golems are so loved. While your humble comment is of great concern to me, i will wait and see what otheres have to say, including yourself, after they have read both oour posts.

My argument is i could find no better way to bring down the powerfullness of the Voltaic Golem.

Thanks again and keep them comming.

[AlabamaBoy]

Mud has movement of 5.

and they all have 60 health.

If you make it weaker, then make it a beast or something, it is no longer a golem.

One of the attribute specified in the unit bio of golems is their high health so... t3h an5w3r is n0

[Phyrexia]

Mud has movement of 5.

and they all have 60 health.

If you make it weaker, then make it a beast or something, it is no longer a golem.

One of the attribute specified in the unit bio of golems is their high health so... t3h an5w3r is n0

I stand corrected about the mud golem, i meant to write 5, still i checked the unit bio and it says only that they have high HP, it says nothing about it being 60. So i invite you to suggest something i might do to bring it up to 50hp, or perhapse to show me where it says that all golems have 60 HP. Thanks again.

EDIT: oh yes, and you misunderstand the nature of definitions, we, or the developers, can change the definitions as they see fit, one can as easily and rightfully argue that mud golem is not a golem cause it has movement other than 2, and stone golem is not a golem cause it has armor other than 0. But, of course, this is not true, they are golems cause they are, they define what a golem is becuase they are one, i think 50hp would be keeping with high hp, comments?

2ND EDIT: What does everyone think of it with 50hp and everything else left as is? too stong or alright?

[AlabamaBoy]

Your delving into the realm of opinion.

But to simply put it, you are wrong about this aspect.

The stone golem's ability is tied directly to its armor boost ability. Think about it, it makes sense. So does the quake effect of the mud golem with five teleportation. Technicaly it doesnt "move" it melts into the ground and reforms. So, if you want to change some of the base aspects of the golem slate then you should make it's differance tied in with the ability. In your case it has not been done that way. You simply made its body weaker to compensate for a higher attack, and if you want to do this, fine. Just dont make him a Golem.

[Phyrexia]

Wow, that was a surprisingly coherent and well thought out argument. I did overlook that whenever a golem had something other golems do not, it is related to the other attributes of that same golem. Indeed you have shown that my golem, as it is a golem, should have high HP. Approximately 60 to be exact. I could use the somewhat ill-formed arugment that it has a high attack, which leads to low HP, so it too has a lower HP of 50*. But perhapse there is a better solution. I will raise it's hp to 60. I would ask your opinion of 3 trun recovery instead of 2. It says in the definition of golems that they have slow turn recoveries. So slower only fits the definition more. what do you think?

EDIT: please note that the creature type is the least important part of any unit.

[AlabamaBoy]

For starters its attack is too strong.

Secondly, its creature type is important, even if it is the "least" important.

Lower the attack, three turn wait is good though.

[Forest_Archer]

Golems have 60 health.

!! hahah!!! wow, dude, I almost laughed out loud. This kid writes a whole page explanation and that's what you have to say. hahahahahaha

[AlabamaBoy]

Welcome back f_a

[Phyrexia]

I simply upped the HP and left everyhting else as is, it is still not as strong as many other untis such as DSM, And i think that if you think it to be too strong, then you havn't considerd actually trying to make use of it, stop imagining a 1 VS 1 battle.

[The Coder]

Please, Don't put unit stats in the
tag, as it makes things harder to read.

Second, All golems have 60 health

Third, this unit is incredibly underpowered. It's weaker than a pyro. And that's saying something.
Against a knight, it would only do 12 damage edit: wait, i'm sorry, 10 damage. It wouldn't even be efficient against a turtle. It would mostly be a distracting unit, rarely to get use in normal combat situations.

And try breaking down large paragraphs into smaller ones.

Name: Voltaic Golem
Power: 8 unblockable
Hp:40
Blocking:0
Armor: None
Movement: 3
Range: L.O.S: Fires 5 bolts of streaming lightning. Each bolt makes it's
way to one of the 5 squares. I.e anyone one of the four areas depicted
bellow.
Turn recovery: 2

Additional information:

Since metal is a conductor, Armor works in opposition. What would normally
be subtracted from the damage is in turn added on. A unit may be in L.O.S.
of up to 3 bolts at once. (Only if the unit is adjacent to the voltaic golem)
The unit receives damage for each bolt he or she is in LOS of. Armor is
calculated individually for each individual bolt that a sinlge unit recieves
rounded up. (not the total damage recieved). For example, A unit with armor
30 who is hit by 3 bolts, takes 8(100+30)% = 10 damage for each bolt, 3X10
= 30 damage. This would be wrong 24(100+30) = 31.
This contradicts a previous statement, that it deals

8 + 8*(100-armour)/100

which is equivalent to
8((100-armour)/100 + 1) (Distributive property. )

whereas in your formula, it's

8(100+armour)/100

which yields different results



So now that you know about the Voltaic Golem here are my thoughts:

Just before we get started i wanted to refute a few lame arguments that I have noticed in other threads. The general arguments go like this: "It's just a [known unit] with this added and that taken away". Please take the time to reflect on the fact that, unless I restrict myself to makeing a furgon, stone golem, or other non-offensive unit, this could be said about nearly every unit currently in use today. Also notice that just because a unit is less powerfull than another does not mean that it is not a great unit. The scout is surely more powerfull than the beast rider, yet the beast rider is great in it's own right.

Actually, there are situations where a beast rider is more powerful than a scout. For example, in a 1 vs. 1 combat situation, a beast rider would beat a scout.

1.) Hopefully you agree that, if anything, this unit is a little tiny bit overpowerd. This is crucial for my following arguments that try to persuade you to think otherwise. If the general census is that the Voltaic Golem is underpowered, that can be easily fixed by raising the HP, Power by 1 or 2, or a little of both.
What are you smoking? It's underpowered, not overpowered

2.) Now, before we get started on how powerfull or unpowerfull a Voltaic Golem is, I just want to mention that the
quality of the Voltaic Golem is in it's attack pattern.

3.) Ok, so it can do a heap of damage, potenially 10X5 = 50. "Wow" you say, "That's more then any other unit can do!" Well this is simply not so. DSM can do 27 damage to 5 units that's 135 potential damage. And Mud golem can do 15X4 + 10X8 + 5X16 = 220!
Um. No it can't. It can't deal 50 damage to a single unit. Notice something. It can deal up to 3 bolts to 1 unit the way you phrased it, and the way the chart is. It never concentrates its full power on 1 unit, at a minimum it's focused on 3. And you're provin my point that this thing isn't overpowered. And it is impossible for a mud golem to do a total of 220 damage, there are only 20 units total on the field as a max. your at a minimum 40 off. And then you factor in the odds of every unit being circled around the mud golem, it's not going to do 180 damage.

"Hey Phyrexia, thanks for poiting that out, why havn't I been using those guys as much as I should have been?" Yea, you egotist, thanks for pointing out a flawed argument!!!

Well that is for two reasons, mainly because the damage is divided among several units, so they can easilly be healed by a cleric as if it nothing ever happened. "Not true about the DSM, he does 27 to each!" Well, yea that seems very powerfull to me also, i guess the reasoning as to why that it is fair is that you have to waste 2 potential spots in your set on a dragon that now only has 16 power.But, after the DSM is dead, power returns in full. And if you play things right, you can get 2 hits from your DSM, and you can also add pyros and stuff, for a 1 hit cleric kill. This thing couldn't kill a stoned cleric. -Anyways, the same is obviously ture for the Voltaic Golem.
Huh? How? I mean, yes, this things damage is buffered out, but that factors in to my point

The 2nd reason is that you have a high likely hood of having a friendly unit in the way. Nobody wants to deal a chunk of damage to their own unit. Also with experience you notice that the attacks from the DSM and the Mud Golem tend to be focused on a single unit. Honestly, whenever you hit 3 units with your pyro, arn't you thinking to yourself "ha ha noob". It will be very hard to use all 5 bolts without putting your Voltaic Golem in serious danger.
not really. if their using a turtle, no.

4.)

Conclusion

While i egknowledge that most of you are hunrgy for the next Furgon a.k.a. a unit with "a totally new ability that does not steam from any other unit in any way", I feel that this unit has much to offer. I know there a lot of offensive units already, but my hope is that Voltaic Golems can make for fun, new, interesting, and above all, tactical battles.

um. we like originality. thats the point of CAU

2 more units to come from me, so keep watching.
It's not good to force yourself to make units. Then you go with more of quantity over quality

Next time, please, spell things correctly.
I had to disable Firefox's spell check ability while reading your post. It was just that poorly spelled.

Note: I took off the quotes from your post, so that you could respond easier. my text is the red stuff.

[Phyrexia]

Please, Don't put unit stats in the
tag, as it makes things harder to read.

Second, All golems have 60 health

Third, this unit is incredibly underpowered. It's weaker than a pyro. And that's saying something.
Against a knight, it would only do 12 damage edit: wait, i'm sorry, 10 damage. It wouldn't even be efficient against a turtle. It would mostly be a distracting unit, rarely to get use in normal combat situations.

And try breaking down large paragraphs into smaller ones.

Which paragraph was too big for you, this is not a goosebumps novel

Name: Voltaic Golem
Power: 8 unblockable
Hp:40
Blocking:0
Armor: None
Movement: 3
Range: L.O.S: Fires 5 bolts of streaming lightning. Each bolt makes it's
way to one of the 5 squares. I.e anyone one of the four areas depicted
bellow.
Turn recovery: 2

Additional information:

Since metal is a conductor, Armor works in opposition. What would normally
be subtracted from the damage is in turn added on. A unit may be in L.O.S.
of up to 3 bolts at once. (Only if the unit is adjacent to the voltaic golem)
The unit receives damage for each bolt he or she is in LOS of. Armor is
calculated individually for each individual bolt that a sinlge unit recieves
rounded up. (not the total damage recieved). For example, A unit with armor
30 who is hit by 3 bolts, takes 8(100+30)% = 10 damage for each bolt, 3X10
= 30 damage. This would be wrong 24(100+30) = 31.
This contradicts a previous statement, that it deals

8 + 8*(100-armour)/100

which is equivalent to
8((100-armour)/100 + 1) (Distributive property. )

whereas in your formula, it's

8(100+armour)/100

which yields different results


So your math is rusty, or you have trouble reading non-
singular ideas and misunderstood the point. I have no idea where you got
this formula "8 + 8*(100-armour)/100", my formula was taken directly from
the guide. Power[(100-Armour)/100]=Final damage, which in this case is 8[(
100 + Armour)/100] = 8[100 + Armour]% of course. For the definition of %
please consult your elementry school.



So now that you know about the Voltaic Golem here are my thoughts:

Just before we get started i wanted to refute a few lame arguments that I have noticed in other threads. The general arguments go like this: "It's just a [known unit] with this added and that taken away". Please take the time to reflect on the fact that, unless I restrict myself to makeing a furgon, stone golem, or other non-offensive unit, this could be said about nearly every unit currently in use today. Also notice that just because a unit is less powerfull than another does not mean that it is not a great unit. The scout is surely more powerfull than the beast rider, yet the beast rider is great in it's own right.

Actually, there are situations where a beast rider is more powerful than a scout. For example, in a 1 vs. 1 combat situation, a beast rider would beat a scout.


Of course when i say "more powerfull than" i mean that you would never trade a scout in for a beast rider, the scout, as far as winning is concerned, will be more of an asset, this is the only way that makes any sense to talk of powerfullness

1.) Hopefully you agree that, if anything, this unit is a little tiny bit overpowerd. This is crucial for my following arguments that try to persuade you to think otherwise. If the general census is that the Voltaic Golem is underpowered, that can be easily fixed by raising the HP, Power by 1 or 2, or a little of both.
What are you smoking? It's underpowered, not overpowered

The more of you that say that it is underpowerd the better, But be sure you understand it's attack, it can take out a knight with 2 attacks. if this makes no sense then you never cared to read this article while thinking.

2.) Now, before we get started on how powerfull or unpowerfull a Voltaic Golem is, I just want to mention that the
quality of the Voltaic Golem is in it's attack pattern.

3.) Ok, so it can do a heap of damage, potenially 10X5 = 50. "Wow" you say, "That's more then any other unit can do!" Well this is simply not so. DSM can do 27 damage to 5 units that's 135 potential damage. And Mud golem can do 15X4 + 10X8 + 5X16 = 220!
Um. No it can't. It can't deal 50 damage to a single unit. Notice something. It can deal up to 3 bolts to 1 unit the way you phrased it, and the way the chart is. It never concentrates its full power on 1 unit, at a minimum it's focused on 3. And you're provin my point that this thing isn't overpowered. And it is impossible for a mud golem to do a total of 220 damage, there are only 20 units total on the field as a max. your at a minimum 40 off. And then you factor in the odds of every unit being circled around the mud golem, it's not going to do 180 damage.

What you just wrote is what i said in other words, we are in agrement, this is not a novel, it may require epsilon consentration.

"Hey Phyrexia, thanks for poiting that out, why havn't I been using those guys as much as I should have been?" Yea, you egotist, thanks for pointing out a flawed argument!!!

I precisly point out the flaw in the next paragraph

Well that is for two reasons, mainly because the damage is divided among several units, so they can easilly be healed by a cleric as if it nothing ever happened. "Not true about the DSM, he does 27 to each!" Well, yea that seems very powerfull to me also, i guess the reasoning as to why that it is fair is that you have to waste 2 potential spots in your set on a dragon that now only has 16 power.But, after the DSM is dead, power returns in full. And if you play things right, you can get 2 hits from your DSM, and you can also add pyros and stuff, for a 1 hit cleric kill. This thing couldn't kill a stoned cleric. -Anyways, the same is obviously ture for the Voltaic Golem.
Huh? How? I mean, yes, this things damage is buffered out, but that factors in to my point

and ofcourse since we have the same point mine aswell. So i guess you just started flamming my unit as you went along. Next time at least read the whole thing while paying attention before you flam. My point like yours was that for te same reasons that the mud golem is not overpowerd, neither is Voltaic Golem. READ!!

The 2nd reason is that you have a high likely hood of having a friendly unit in the way. Nobody wants to deal a chunk of damage to their own unit. Also with experience you notice that the attacks from the DSM and the Mud Golem tend to be focused on a single unit. Honestly, whenever you hit 3 units with your pyro, arn't you thinking to yourself "ha ha noob". It will be very hard to use all 5 bolts without putting your Voltaic Golem in serious danger.
not really. if their using a turtle, no.

not really, it's ture. but for my unit, really.

4.)

Conclusion

While i egknowledge that most of you are hunrgy for the next Furgon a.k.a. a unit with "a totally new ability that does not steam from any other unit in any way", I feel that this unit has much to offer. I know there a lot of offensive units already, but my hope is that Voltaic Golems can make for fun, new, interesting, and above all, tactical battles.

um. we like originality. thats the point of CAU

I have not seen a unit with this attack pattern have you? oh right it doesn't matter as long as you have something to say. Maybe Attacking can never be origianl cause so many units can do it. What are you smoking?


2 more units to come from me, so keep watching.
It's not good to force yourself to make units. Then you go with more of quantity over quality

The 2 other units are already made, i made all 3 over 3 weeks and i only posted this one now because i was not able to post untill tonight.

Next time, please, spell things correctly.
I had to disable Firefox's spell check ability while reading your post. It was just that poorly spelled.

I never learned to spell well, i did check as many words as i was unsure of but a few must have gotten through, i appologize about that.
I realize that you are all long time buddies who have nothing better to do then to pick on noobs. With eachother to back yourselves up and me a lone gunman, i dont blame you. I guess it could get boring around here. None of your arguments make any sense, you obviously flamed as you read, you quoted before reading and added comments before finishing, it would make sense if you read it through. Please at least understand the attack and that it ADDS the armour instead of subtracting it. It can deal 20 damage to 2 knights and 10 to a 3rd if positioned correctly, that is not all that underpowerd with 2 turn recovery and 60hp, please think responsibly.

Note: I took off the quotes from your post, so that you could respond easier. my text is the red stuff.

[xerent]

All Golems thus far have 60 health.

All future Golems do not need to have 60 health.

It's this type of mentality which makes most of your units suck.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yes, i noticed that golems all (so far) have 60 health and no armor, i forgot to adress this. 'tis true, and thanks for the in depth feed back, much appreciated.

I like this guy! :)

As for the unit, the low Golem-like movement range, far-fetched attack pattern and complex damage calculations I can get over (Lord knows in 20 tries I've created my fair share of them), but why in the Hell did you give it a unit HP that isn't 60? :p

But seriously... I am honestly hoping here that, for what the attack is worth, it won't honestly be limited to a 2-space minimum. I can appreciate the fact that despite its apparent minimum range of 2, it can still devastate adjacent units, but with its rigidity in attack range (it goes neither up nor down, meaning you attack in the same 2-out line pattern each time), you won't be finding any situations where you can make any real use of this unit's attack, except concentrated blasts on offending Dragons/Knights trying to make a pass at the Cleric.

The reason the Mud Quake, in all its complexity and wide-spread effects, is so valuable is because the unit can easily shift from offense to defense. With its large movement range, it can pulverize your opponent's attack force with no negative effects on your part, and shift back if need be, or it can push out far enough defensively to hit up another unit without ruining the rest of your defense (like shrubs, Stone/Frost focus, et cetera).

This unit lacks the transitional properties that make the Mud Golem so great. On the front lines, it makes a good anti to the anti (with the frontal, 5-panel attack), but it can't actually push forward far enough to progress offensively, or fall back far enough to defend itself if attacked. In the back ranks, it can deliver crushing blows to units that assault your weaker forces, but with its restrictive attack pattern & movement, you might find it hard to get to these units, and you might actually find yourself attacking your own units, making your attacks a liability. The rigidity in both the movement/recovery and attack inhibit its usage to the point where it becomes too conditional to bother with.

That having been said, I think it's original, balanced (to a degree) and thought out magnificently, and I'd have to say it's top dollar as far as first CAU units go, but I'm thinking it's either too conditional for regular use or too confusing for me to understand.

Footnote: Holy heck, my eyes must be deceiving me! In the attack pattern diagram, the up/down lines are 2 away from the unit, but the left/right lines are 3 away! What does this mean? Does it attack units 2 away or 3? Can it attack at different attack ranges (can you target cardinal panels, and then progress to further panels if you want to?), or was this just a typo?

[Phyrexia]

All Golems thus far have 60 health.

All future Golems do not need to have 60 health.

It's this type of mentality which makes most of your units suck.

Thanks for your support in this aspect, someone else in agrement with me.
And by "your" i can only assume you mean non-me.
Thanks.

I like this guy! :)

As for the unit, the low Golem-like movement range, far-fetched attack pattern and complex damage calculations I can get over (Lord knows in 20 tries I've created my fair share of them), but why in the Hell did you give it a unit HP that isn't 60? :p

But seriously... I am honestly hoping here that, for what the attack is worth, it won't honestly be limited to a 2-space minimum. I can appreciate the fact that despite its apparent minimum range of 2, it can still devastate adjacent units, but with its rigidity in attack range (it goes neither up nor down, meaning you attack in the same 2-out line pattern each time), you won't be finding any situations where you can make any real use of this unit's attack, except concentrated blasts on offending Dragons/Knights trying to make a pass at the Cleric.

The reason the Mud Quake, in all its complexity and wide-spread effects, is so valuable is because the unit can easily shift from offense to defense. With its large movement range, it can pulverize your opponent's attack force with no negative effects on your part, and shift back if need be, or it can push out far enough defensively to hit up another unit without ruining the rest of your defense (like shrubs, Stone/Frost focus, et cetera).

This unit lacks the transitional properties that make the Mud Golem so great. On the front lines, it makes a good anti to the anti (with the frontal, 5-panel attack), but it can't actually push forward far enough to progress offensively, or fall back far enough to defend itself if attacked. In the back ranks, it can deliver crushing blows to units that assault your weaker forces, but with its restrictive attack pattern & movement, you might find it hard to get to these units, and you might actually find yourself attacking your own units, making your attacks a liability. The rigidity in both the movement/recovery and attack inhibit its usage to the point where it becomes too conditional to bother with.

That having been said, I think it's original, balanced (to a degree) and thought out magnificently, and I'd have to say it's top dollar as far as first CAU units go, but I'm thinking it's either too conditional for regular use or too confusing for me to understand.

Footnote: Holy heck, my eyes must be deceiving me! In the attack pattern diagram, the up/down lines are 2 away from the unit, but the left/right lines are 3 away! What does this mean? Does it attack units 2 away or 3? Can it attack at different attack ranges (can you target cardinal panels, and then progress to further panels if you want to?), or was this just a typo?

Wow, the first proper critisicm, sadly based on misunderstanding the attack.
I will go through it, in great detail to show,that it is not all that complicated, with examples and such at the bottom of the first post, please check it out.

And if you could specify where you see the top and bottom being 2 spaces away i would really like to know, i can't find it anywhere, they are all 3 spaces away. I.e your eyes were deceiving you.

thanks again.

[scb]

It is very overpowered. A 30-damage melee strike unblockable? THis unit will kill a knight or a stoned dragon in two hits without a heal, with a heal it just needs a scout shot to make up the difference. 24 damage is powerful enough without penalizing armor. Also, armor is a positive stat; it should never be penalized. Negated maybe, but not penalized. With recovery 2, this unit can quickly slaughter any stoned unit that comes nearby, making stone golems nearly useless. Incidentally, not all armor is metal; it can also be leather or stone.

I've made a unit with very nearly this attack pattern, but I never posted it on this forum so the point is moot. I have, however, been using it for a long time to play TacticsArena away from TAO. I think this unit is similar to ideas I've used in the past, particularly my Magnetite Golem, but it's different enough to consider separately.

You would be more likely to use all five of this unit's bolts than to hit three units with a pyromancer (there are 22 ways to arrange 3 units in the golem's attack area to use all five bolts, as opposed to 20 in a pyromancer's to use three, and the attack area makes it more likely that you will catch more than three units), but that doesn't matter because the individual units wouldn't be hit very hard. This unit serves a dual purpose, and can actually use both purposes at once: focus-breaker and power hitter. This unit survives a total replacement check, but I still think its attack is far too devastating and should not penalize armor.

Oh, and every golem thus far has some exception to the golem rules. I would accept some exception to the rules for this golem as well, but attack pattern AND attack power AND movement is a little bit much for me. Also, I don't think 3 movement is a significant enough change to warrant an exception. Holy cow, this is REALLY close to my magnetite golem (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23847)...

[Phyrexia]

Quoting scb

It is very overpowered. A 30-damage melee strike unblockable? THis unit will kill a knight or a stoned dragon in two hits without a heal, with a heal it just needs a scout shot to make up the difference. 24 damage is powerful enough without penalizing armor. Also, armor is a positive stat; it should never be penalized. Negated maybe, but not penalized. With recovery 2, this unit can quickly slaughter any stoned unit that comes nearby, making stone golems nearly useless. Incidentally, not all armor is metal; it can also be leather or stone.

We have to think practically. Who is going to move their units within 3 squares from a Voltaic Golem? Sure, one might just move out the Votaic Golem, not attack, and then move out again two turns later to get a unit in that sweet spot, but during these turns it is very likely to get suffer damage from opposing units, by the time it reaches the "knight" it will only have a few HP left. -That's what i would be saying if it had 40HP like it origionally did. Penilizing armour... Yes it's somewhat of an anti-turtle unit. But just because your perfect turtle set might have non-turtle competition is no reason to get all excited. j/k Besides if you are playing turtle you have that frosty in reach after the super knight attack. The point is that this possible attack on a knight is, more often then not, a bad move for your Voltaic Golems well being. Would lowring the HP to between 40 and 50 make it more easy to deal with?

I've made a unit with very nearly this attack pattern, but I never posted it on this forum so the point is moot. I have, however, been using it for a long time to play TacticsArena away from TAO. I think this unit is similar to ideas I've used in the past, particularly my Magnetite Golem, but it's different enough to consider separately.

You would be more likely to use all five of this unit's bolts than to hit three units with a pyromancer (there are 22 ways to arrange 3 units in the golem's attack area to use all five bolts, as opposed to 20 in a pyromancer's to use three, and the attack area makes it more likely that you will catch more than three units), but that doesn't matter because the individual units wouldn't be hit very hard. This unit serves a dual purpose, and can actually use both purposes at once: focus-breaker and power hitter. This unit survives a total replacement check, but I still think its attack is far too devastating and should not penalize armor.

I am glad you understand the power this unit has. The whole quality of this unit is this double purpose you sepak of. Everything else can be adjusted to make it non-over-powered. Please reconsider that, even if it hits 3 units, the damage will in most cases be on oaverage less then a pyro can deal and that to make up for that there is, with strategic choice, at least one unit who takes a moderate blow. Though it is my least favorite idea, it is possible to remove the unblockable-ness and to perhapse keep the anti-armour intact. I stil have to consider such an option but in the mean time your feedback would be helpfull. Does removing the unblockable-ness take everything away from this unit?

Oh, and every golem thus far has some exception to the golem rules. I would accept some exception to the rules for this golem as well, but attack pattern AND attack power AND movement is a little bit much for me. Also, I don't think 3 movement is a significant enough change to warrant an exception. Holy cow, this is REALLY close to my magnetite golem (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23847)...

Movement 3 not a significant exception, good so far... It's current HP is 60, still no exceptions... Attack power, is 8, sometimes 16 and hardly ever 24. I really don't think that's much of an exception... Attack pattern??? there is no standard attack pattern for golems, the only exception would be if i used the same attack pattern as another golem!! They all have different attack patterns. If this has convinced you that there is little or no ecception to Voltaic golem at this state, then i ask to loewr the HP to 40+.

One final note, although it has the potential to del a heap of damage to adjacent units, this would be very hard to pull of, imagine trying to kill a cleric, this unit is not suted, for example, for that purpose.

EDIT: i only count 19 ways in which 3 units can be hit,(dont forget about los) many of which each of the 3 units are only hit by one bolt. That's a total of 24 damage as apposed to 45 (imagine both clerics have been taken out somehow.?.?.). Golems attack would be healable and the pyros would not be. only 9 of these ways does a unit recieve 3 bolts.

Also note that instead of looking at negated armour as a set back, I was thinking of no armour as an adavantage. If i would remove the anti-armour attribute, i would raise the power to compesnate, but, now the units without armour are affected by this (they now take greater damge while the armourd units take the same amount) Thus it makes the unit all in all, less powerfull to have "lower power" compensated with "negated armour" then it does if it were vise versa. I don think i am speaking the empirical truth, im just being persuasive. Please argue back if you think it is neccesary, i would like to be as close to the truth as possible.

Power = 8 again.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Wow, the first proper critisicm, sadly based on misunderstanding the attack.
I will go through it, in great detail to show,that it is not all that complicated, with examples and such at the bottom of the first post, please check it out.

I understand the attack mechanisms fully. What I didn't understand was the range, because, despite the attack pushing outwards equally in all directions, the diagram was rectangular, which threw me off.

What I did emphasize was that the attack was conditional, in saying that you can have it on offense or on defense, but not necessarily both, due to lack of movement range, and that once somebody forces your hand with this thing, it loses its usefulness almost immediately.

On offense, the only way this thing would be really powerful in offense is as a single concentrated boost of damage, like an early-game LW blast, before it gets neutralized by means of elimination. On defense it is more promising in the sense that you can keep it alive longer, but less promising in the sense that you won't really find a use for it that doesn't bring potential harm to your own units except in rare situations where your opponent makes a serious mistake with their formation.

As far as the positioning of this unit goes I see only two positions where it could be utilized to the point where it could be swapped out for another unit (I will use both those positions in existing formations that I have used with great success without it, it will be the Furgon in each form).

The first is as an opening-move spread damager in this rush:
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/1320/volt1mn3.jpg

Where it can hit any or all of five units in a same-side form, probably an anti. (Note: In the original form Dragon is in the front rank).

And the second is in a corner-clustered turtle:
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2319/volt2xx9.jpg

Where it can one-hit a stoned Scout that might be rushing up on your Cleric.

Those are the only two real situations where I can see this unit being used with great potential, and even then if your opponent is smart neither of these situations will come to realization. The unit, while powerful, is simply too conditional for lasting usage!

And if you could specify where you see the top and bottom being 2 spaces away i would really like to know, i can't find it anywhere, they are all 3 spaces away. I.e your eyes were deceiving you.

thanks again.

You're right. I read the rectangular diagram as meaning the range was a variable.

Damn my poor vision! :cleye:

[Phyrexia]

This unit could also be used like a scout of sorts, on the out side flank of a centerd formation. Please reconsider the conditionalitablilty of this unit.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This unit could also be used like a scout of sorts, on the out side flank of a centerd formation. Please reconsider the conditionalitablilty of this unit.

A unit with 3 movement (non-teleport, I emphasize this), 1 move recovery and no blocking or armor can't flank. Hell, a Knight can barely flank, and its move recovery is 0, its armor is 25% and its blocking is 80%.

It's like flanking with your Frost Golem, only with one extra movement.

It can go in, but it can't go far, and it can't retreat once it starts. Not traits you look for in a flanking unit.

[Phyrexia]

Please reconsider the attack pattern, The furthest corners of the attack are actually at a range of 5!

With this in mind, perhapse upping the power a little might make it more usable?

If none of this convinces any of you, i will consider reviseing the attack pattern, (i have an alternate one that is still simillar. 3 bolts 5 squares away...)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Please reconsider the attack pattern, The furthest corners of the attack are actually at a range of 5!

With this in mind, perhapse upping the power a little might make it more usable?

If none of this convinces any of you, i will consider reviseing the attack pattern, (i have an alternate one that is still simillar. 3 bolts 5 squares away...)

The attack range isn't going to help me when it comes to its ability to flank.

What makes the Beast Rider and Assassin such useful units when it comes to flanking is the fact that it can defend & block attacks, and move 4 recovery-free spaces to easily get in and out of enemy territory. A Beast Rider can outrun a Knight and outlive a Mage, which is what makes it a core flank unit.

Contrary to this fact, this unit, like a Frost Golem, is durable and rather powerful, but it's slow. If you have two Knights on a Frost Golem, the only thing you can do is push it back a few spaces and pray your opponent doesn't make a move on it--this unit isn't much better on this regard. It's slow moving and easily walled off, and with no armor and blocking of its own, easily killed as well.

I would not flank with this unit, no, but it's not because of the attack pattern.

[Cross Punisher]

cool unit, well thought out and original attack pattern, but I like many others don't find it powerful enough to be worth using.

[The Coder]

Which paragraph was too big for you, this is not a goosebumps novel

I'll point out in later in paragraph.
[QUOTE=Phyrexia;1072821]
So your math is rusty, or you have trouble reading non-
singular ideas and misunderstood the point. I have no idea where you got
this formula "8 + 8*(100-armour)/100", my formula was taken directly from
the guide. Power[(100-Armour)/100]=Final damage, which in this case is 8[(
100 + Armour)/100] = 8[100 + Armour]% of course. For the definition of %
please consult your elementry school.



lawl. trust me. My math is good. Why else would I have a 100% in precalc? I've actually been bumped up 2 grades. I start Calculus next year. In my junior year of high school.
8 + 8*(100-armour)/100 - You had stated that it was this at one point. If not, a simple accidental sign error. And when I make one sign error, the errors compound.


Actually, there are situations where a beast rider is more powerful than a scout. For example, in a 1 vs. 1 combat situation, a beast rider would beat a scout.


Of course when i say "more powerfull than" i mean that you would never trade a scout in for a beast rider, the scout, as far as winning is concerned, will be more of an asset, this is the only way that makes any sense to talk of powerfullness


*Insert James Bond-ness* Never say never. Say you have a cleric and a scout, and your opponent had just a BR. Wouldn't you sacrafice your scout to kill the BR?
Trust me, this is a very situational game. It could win you the game it could.


What are you smoking? It's underpowered, not overpowered

The more of you that say that it is underpowerd the better, But be sure you understand it's attack, it can take out a knight with 2 attacks. if this makes no sense then you never cared to read this article while thinking.


Only if it's a double stoned knight and they don't heal, and they don't attack with the knight, and you're 1 square away. Not likely.


Um. No it can't. It can't deal 50 damage to a single unit. Notice something. It can deal up to 3 bolts to 1 unit the way you phrased it, and the way the chart is. It never concentrates its full power on 1 unit, at a minimum it's focused on 3. And you're provin my point that this thing isn't overpowered. And it is impossible for a mud golem to do a total of 220 damage, there are only 20 units total on the field as a max. your at a minimum 40 off. And then you factor in the odds of every unit being circled around the mud golem, it's not going to do 180 damage.

What you just wrote is what i said in other words, we are in agrement, this is not a novel, it may
require epsilon consentration.


Nope. What I said was, is that the mud golem can't do the 220 damage. And it's not likely to do 180, and that the damage is easily healed, and that that damage would also go towards your people.


Yea, you egotist, thanks for pointing out a flawed argument!!!

I precisly point out the flaw in the next paragraph


So you're admitting to being an egotist? It's not fixed in the next paragraph. You just point something that makes it appear further underpowered.

Well that is for two reasons, mainly because the damage is divided among several units, so they can easilly be healed by a cleric as if it nothing ever happened. "Not true about the DSM, he does 27 to each!" Well, yea that seems very powerfull to me also, i guess the reasoning as to why that it is fair is that you have to waste 2 potential spots in your set on a dragon that now only has 16 power.But, after the DSM is dead, power returns in full. And if you play things right, you can get 2 hits from your DSM, and you can also add pyros and stuff, for a 1 hit cleric kill. This thing couldn't kill a stoned cleric. -Anyways, the same is obviously ture for the Voltaic Golem.
Huh? How? I mean, yes, this things damage is buffered out, but that factors in to my point

and ofcourse since we have the same point mine aswell. So i guess you just started flamming my unit as you went along. Next time at least read the whole thing while paying attention before you flam. My point like yours was that for te same reasons that the mud golem is not overpowerd, neither is Voltaic Golem. READ!!


Alright, so this is one of those giant paragraphs I was talking about. Our points are not one. They are different. You're point is that your unit is overpowered, and mine is that it's way underpowered. See the difference?

The 2nd reason is that you have a high likely hood of having a friendly unit in the way. Nobody wants to deal a chunk of damage to their own unit. Also with experience you notice that the attacks from the DSM and the Mud Golem tend to be focused on a single unit. Honestly, whenever you hit 3 units with your pyro, arn't you thinking to yourself "ha ha noob". It will be very hard to use all 5 bolts without putting your Voltaic Golem in serious danger.
not really. if their using a turtle, no.

not really, it's ture. but for my unit, really.

Why do you always misspell true? Anyway, you can also keep your unit safe using the BW.



Conclusion

While i egknowledge that most of you are hunrgy for the next Furgon a.k.a. a unit with "a totally new ability that does not steam from any other unit in any way", I feel that this unit has much to offer. I know there a lot of offensive units already, but my hope is that Voltaic Golems can make for fun, new, interesting, and above all, tactical battles.

um. we like originality. thats the point of CAU

I have not seen a unit with this attack pattern have you? oh right it doesn't matter as long as you have something to say. Maybe Attacking can never be origianl cause so many units can do it. What are you smoking?



Actually, that wasn't a threat to you, moron. It was a statement about what is appreciated in CAU. And yet you interpreted it as a threat to you?

I didn't state anywhere in that paragraph that your unit wasn't original. In fact, I doubt I have said it in this whole thing



The 2 other units are already made, i made all 3 over 3 weeks and i only posted this one now because i was not able to post untill tonight.

This leads me to believe, that since this was, I believe, your first post, that you are an alternate account of someone else. Not many would spend 3 weeks designing their unit and then post it as soon as they joined. Most would join first.


I never learned to spell well, i did check as many words as i was unsure of but a few must have gotten through, i appologize about that.
I realize that you are all long time buddies who have nothing better to do then to pick on noobs. With eachother to back yourselves up and me a lone gunman, i dont blame you. I guess it could get boring around here. None of your arguments make any sense, you obviously flamed as you read, you quoted before reading and added comments before finishing, it would make sense if you read it through. Please at least understand the attack and that it ADDS the armour instead of subtracting it. It can deal 20 damage to 2 knights and 10 to a 3rd if positioned correctly, that is not all that underpowerd with 2 turn recovery and 60hp, please think responsibly.


I don't pick on noobs. I'm like 曹操 (tsao tsao, cao cao), the disciplinarian so harsh that he condemned himself to death for allowing his horse to stall in a field of corn. You may think I'm hard on you, but I'm hard on everyone. Including myself.

Don't believe me? Consult the 30 square inches of bruising on my inner thighs from where I punch myself when I do something wrong.

Sorry it took me so long. I just hadn't gotten to my computer in weeks. I don't leave posts unresponded to in general. So next time, don't PM me.