Phyrexia's units (2 of 3): Goblin[s]

[Phyrexia]

This innocent little bugger lives and dies by one philosophy: Strength in numnbers. Goblins are small, red, angry and snobish.

The following stats are written in open (a-b) form to allow for suggestions as how best to even out the unit. The unit will, in the end, only have one unique number appointed to each stat.


Name: Goblin[s]
HP: 28-33
Power: 12-15 blockable, reducable
Armour: None
Blocking: 10-15 %
Turn recovery: 0
Movement: 4
Range: 1 (melee attack)

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There are two possible "special atrributes" available. Vote for your favorite at the top.

Special attribute 1

As their philosophy suggests, their strength is attributed to their numbers.
2 Goblins count as 1 unit on the field.
You can have a maximum of 4-6 goblins on the feild.

- I'm not sure how best the developers would make this work. The only problem would be what happens when you win only 1? This would make them that much more hard to collect, or they could give away 2 at a time. All of these are possible.

Special attribute 2 (Idea by scb)

You may move all your goblins during a single turn.
You can have a maximum of 2-3 goblins on the field.

Obviously, educated comments welcome as allways. Please consider flamming only units with no thought put into them. Thank you.
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Log of suggestions, criticism and reasoning.

-Advantages to SA1-

1.) Perfect for paralization units. (explanation needed)
2.) Good way to take out weak units. Although you may be sacraficing your goblin in the procces, you do have another one, and since 2 count as one for you, this trade is 2 to one in our favor.

-Disadvangtages to SA1-

-Advantages to SA2-

-Disadvangtages to SA2-

[Buster]

This innocent little bugger lives and dies by one philosophy: Strength in numnbers. Goblins are small, red, angry and snobish.

[code]
Name: Goblin[s]
HP: 25-35
Power: 12-16 blockable, reducable
Armour: None
Blocking: 0-15 %
Turn recovery: 0
Movement: 4-5
Range: 1 (melee attack)


Never give a color... because color is changeable.

I do not understand the ranges... are these just like ideas and you have no hard idea?

I will tell you what I think once Im told about that.

[Phyrexia]

The range is one, it attakcs just like a knight or beserker.
when you read you can learn a lot. Please consult the first RED sentence in the first post.
You can, if your consentration limits you, assume each variable stat is the middle number, unless it has no middle number, then that is where i would like feedback. (ex: power 14, HP: 30, etc) Hopefully you are not dumb enough to say that posting unfinished units is not a good idea, there would be far better units if creators left room for suggestions and buffering.
The color can be changed.... your very young im guessing.

[AlabamaBoy]

Please make simpler more concise units, or seperate into definable paragraphs, and/or sections.

[xerent]

It's pretty simple.

You have the unit stats.

Then an explination of special abilities.

Nicely color coded for your convienence.

In regards to the goblins.

1) These units are too weak to count as a half a unit. If you half a knights stats in half, (HP, power, blocking, everything), Then it becomes much less effective. You would need three or four to match the power of a single knight, and even then, that power is spread out, easily counterable by other strategies. For instance, if these goblins are at 12 power each, 3 clerics would stalemate an infinite number of these guys. Not cool.

Of course, it should be like this. (I know this sounds hypocratic right now). Strategies should be strong against some types, and weaker against others.

The problem is, I don't really find a benefit to having 20 of these guys on the field in any situation. (Yes, I know you specify a max. number, but anything which relies on having a cap to deal with balance issues is a poorly built unit.)

EDIT: I thought of a situation, which is against a paralysis-heavy formation.

But there really isn't enough paralysis support to warrant such a strategem... not yet anyways.

2) It's been my experience that anything with a multiplier in the variable has a potential for abuse.

[Phyrexia]

Quoting xerent:
It's pretty simple.

You have the unit stats.

Then an explination of special abilities.

Nicely color coded for your convienence.

In regards to the goblins.

1) These units are too weak to count as a half a unit. If you half a knights stats in half, (HP, power, blocking, everything), Then it becomes much less effective. You would need three or four to match the power of a single knight, and even then, that power is spread out, easily counterable by other strategies. For instance, if these goblins are at 12 power each, 3 clerics would stalemate an infinite number of these guys. Not cool.

The first 2 scentences are of course true. I did consider this when i created the unit, obviously DT is a good example of this fact. If you look closely you will see that this unit is far stronger than a half knight. The 2 strength of this unit are,
1.) 0 turn recovery. This also refutes the last sentence about the 3 cleric scenraio and
2.) 4-5 movment. I would choose 5 but i was concerned, depending on the chossen hp and power, that 5 would be over powered, perhapse 4 would keep this unit from replacing knights all together which is a bad thing.(

Of course, it should be like this. (I know this sounds hypocratic right now). Strategies should be strong against some types, and weaker against others.

The problem is, I don't really find a benefit to having 20 of these guys on the field in any situation. (Yes, I know you specify a max. number, but anything which relies on having a cap to deal with balance issues is a poorly built unit.)

No I am guessing you neglected to look at the turn recovery and/or movment, because obviously a quick knock-out of any unit with 24-32 power (assuming the conditions are right; cleric is waiting, this unit is waiting) would be very strong indeed, even if you sacrafice 1 to pull it of, you really sacraficed only 1/2 a unit in a way.


EDIT: I thought of a situation, which is against a paralysis-heavy formation.

But there really isn't enough paralysis support to warrant such a strategem... not yet anyways.

2) It's been my experience that anything with a multiplier in the variable has a potential for abuse.[/QUOTE]

The whole idea behind the 2nd possible ability is that it starts the game off doing mega-damage (36-48). But the low hp evens out this redicoulous power because as soon as one goblin dies, the others now only have 24-32 damge, still not bad. Once one more gets knocked off the last one has only 12-16. Also notice that this 2nd abilitty has a max as well.

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This is good feedback, even if it is predominantly negative. I was thinking this forum would easilly be able to make this unit as even and well rounded as possible, but i now see that creating units is not a team effort. What should i have done? Posted a unit with fixed stats only to eventually bring them down or up later on? I will give 3 examples of what i feel are well rounded units. You can criticize them, keeping in mind that they are not being submitted. This is what i wanted form all of you.

Example 1


Name: Goblins
HP: 25
Power: 14 blockable, reducable
Armour: None
Blocking: 10%
Turn recovery: 0
Movement: 5
Range: 1

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Special Attribute

2 Goblins count as 1 unit on the field.
You can have a maximum of 6 goblins on the feild.

Example 2


Name: Goblin
HP: 30
Power: 12 blockable, reducable
Armour: None
Blocking: 0%
Turn recovery: 0
Movement: 4
Range: 1

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Special Attribute

Passive ability: Each goblins power = it's power X the number of goblins on
the feild.
You may have a maximum of 3 goblins on the field.

Example 3


Name: Goblin
HP: 35
Power: 16 blockable, reducable
Armour: None
Blocking: 0%
Turn recovery: 0
Movement: 5
Range: 1

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Special Attribute

Passive ability: Each goblins power = it's power X the number of goblins on
the feild.
You may have a maximum of 2 goblins on the field.

Ex 1 is self explanatory
Ex 2 and 3 differ by little variations. The most obvious is the "max number" of them you can have on the field.
Try to figure out the reasoning on your own. If you cant get it you should not be in CAU.

Please re-read them and pay close attention to turn recovery and movment. They are deffenitly not underpowered.

[jedi knight]

dude,i cant tell which is which?dont make them so elaborate and add more text to descprition.thats wat one person told me before

[The Maxx]

I like them. They would be fun for greys who are sick of not having any units that are capable of a full out rush.

0 turn recovery would be a nice way to take out the other players cleric/dmw/pyro, etc :p

Nice unit Phyrexia.

[xerent]

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just giving my thoughts on here. This will be my last post on the matter. You can take what you want from them.

1) I did not neglect to look at any of the stats, as you so were so abhorrently suggestive in your thread. I am more than capable of determining for myself a unit's worth based on the information you provided, which, weather you believe it or not, I was fully able to comprehend.

I know, it's a bit of a stretch that "Recovery: 0" actually means no recovery... but I assure you, I worked my tiny, inferior brain for hours until I finally understood this fact, and the ramifications of it. I was also to finally understand that this unit could indeed move 4, and / or 5 tiles, and decided that this was not a redeeming factor. Someday I hope to be able to dress myself in the morning, but let's take things one step at a time.

2) Please keep in mind that these are YOUR creations. YOU are posting them on this forum in the hopes of gathering FEEDBACK. You posting a unit does not invite a community get-together to work it out so that it can be all that it can be, that falls on YOUR shoulders should you want to do that. It's up to YOU to take this little excersize in creativity as far as you want, not us.

3) Posting units with stat ranges is stupid. As stated before, it's up to you to decide what you want this unit to be, not to post what you hope to be an acceptable safe range, and have the community decide for you. It also much more difficult to give relevant feedback on a unit without finely defined edges, so to speak.

4) Please stop being a dick.

5) Really. Stop.

(I'm referring to this elegant phrase so graciously provided)

If you cant get it you should not be in CAU.

It is not up to you to decide who should and should not be in TAO. Get off your high horse and realize that you suck as much as the rest of us.

In fact, as delicious irony would have it, it's up to me to decide who should and shouldn't be in here.

Well, not really...

... but kinda.

6) In response to your last question:

What should I have done?

Do whatever you want to do with the feedback provided. Your job is not to please or impress us with your 1337 unit making skills, we get enough of that from the others.

In closing:

Your ideas have potential, and if you want to develop them, then they might seriously kick ass... but if you're asking for opinions, then that's what you'll get. Stop acting so suprised when not everyone thinks they're as wonderful as you.

Or maybe they just don't read the unit stats.

[scb]

Here's the formuls for half a unit:
-Halve health
-Double blocking and add 1
That's it. The unit is now half as good. So, let's compare this with a half knight:


Half Knight/Goblin
HP: 25/25-35
Armor: 25/0
Blocking: 80/0-15
Power: 22/12-16
Range: 1
Movement: 3/4
Wait: 3/0


Before I evaluate this, I must say - NO 5 MOVEMENT 0 WAIT! A knight can't catch that in the endgame, which is a bad idea. So this unit has to have 4 movement.
0 wait, 4 movement... that looks familiar. Ah yes, I dreamed it up and never posted it. However, this is another concept. Maybe I should have doubled the goblin.
No, you can't double a 0-wait unit. These goblins have terrible teamwork! One by itself will do anything two can do, except beat up a paralyzer. It has to be the second ability. Better yet, I suggest a third ability: Whenever you move one goblin, you can move all of them. That way, they can all gang up on one unit. Put all the stats at minimum in that case.

[Phyrexia]

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just giving my thoughts on here. This will be my last post on the matter. You can take what you want from them.

1) I did not neglect to look at any of the stats, as you so were so abhorrently suggestive in your thread. I am more than capable of determining for myself a unit's worth based on the information you provided, which, weather you believe it or not, I was fully able to comprehend.

I know, it's a bit of a stretch that "Recovery: 0" actually means no recovery... but I assure you, I worked my tiny, inferior brain for hours until I finally understood this fact, and the ramifications of it. I was also to finally understand that this unit could indeed move 4, and / or 5 tiles, and decided that this was not a redeeming factor. Someday I hope to be able to dress myself in the morning, but let's take things one step at a time.

I could not ask for better feedback then what you gave, i think you took my post the wrong way.

Ummm, how did you, then, conclude that 3 clerics is stalemate? with 0 turn recovery it is not, so i "gussed" that you must have missed that information. Of course there was the other possibility that you think that 3 clerics heal every turn, when in fact it is 3 every 4 turns, but again i "guessed" that a vetern like you knew better. And you have shown otherwise. Also wanted to mention that i did not intend to insult anyone and i am sorry if you were insulted.

We are norrowing down the unit, ability one is the obvious choice with 4 movement.

Scb

yes 2 golbins can do what one can, but the advantage is that you dont have to risk 2, or in this case half a unit, in order to pull it off.

your 3rd candidate is beautifull. I only doubt that the program could handle it when you choose the direction that the first goblin you move faces, and then not ending the turn but also allowing other units not to take commands. Maybe, could someone with developing experience adress this issue?

[scb]

I could do it in my own version no problem. The trick is to give all units except goblins at least 1 wait as soon as you move the first goblin, then give each subsequent goblin 1 wait as you move it. The turn then starts over repeatedly (with no wait recovery or wisp effects) until you click the pass button twice or have no units left to move (this would be added into the end-turn code). All units then recover one wait, leaving the goblins and units that didn't have any wait time to start with with 0 wait. This would be very easy in my implementation; I don't know how Seed handles wait time, so I can't say for sure how easy it would be for him.

[Phyrexia]

Alright, but now im thinking it would be too strong,
turn 1, move 3 gobs, kill a unit (36+ damage)
Turn 2, move 3 gobs kill a unit.

that is scary, of coure one of the gobs might get knoced out by then.

I will have to consider drastically lower stats for this one, but another day.
I will replace attribute 2 with it.

[JesusCraig]

phyrexia, the reason 3 clerics vs an infinite amount of goblins is a stalemate is because
1st player: Attack cleric, do 12 damage
2nd player: heal 12, no damage has occurred, 3 wait time.
1st player: Attack cleric
2nd player: 2 wait time on first cleric, heal with other cleric 12, all damage is gone. 3 wait time on second cleric.
1st player: attack cleric
2nd player: 1 wait time on first cleric, 2 wait time on second cleric, other cleric heals 12, all damage is gone. 3 wait time on third cleric.
1st player: attack cleric
2md player: 0 wait time on first cleric, 1 wait time on second cleric, 2 wait time on third cleric, heal with first cleric, heals 12, all damage is gone.

EDIT:
Nevermind, recovery goes away at the end of turn, so he'd need four clerics. Weird, I always thought it was once every 3 turns as well.

[scb]

Still, it's 3 units, and they aren't much good separated. Also, one of their attacks will probably be blocked, giving them an effective 24 unblockable total. They also die insanely fast... one dragon hit takes out one at the minimum health. I think they may need pyromancer health to be usable.

Jesuscraig, you forgot a turn's worth of wait time after the third goblin attack. The clerics would be at 2, 3 and 0 after that, and 1, 2 and 3 after the subsequent cleric attack - leaving you nothing to heal with on the next turn. You would need four.

[Phyrexia]

I changed Special attribute 2, and it has one vote so far... (i wonder by who?? Cough cough scb cough)

Also made the stat intervals smaller so that it si a bit more precise, come on guys lets finish them up.

[Kyir]

I changed Special attribute 2, and it has one vote so far... (i wonder by who?? Cough cough scb cough)

Also made the stat intervals smaller so that it si a bit more precise, come on guys lets finish them up.

The vote would be mine.

[scb]

Ah, Kyir my friend, he mistook you for me! That puts you on my good side. :D

I think it is time for me to vote for number 2 now.