i'm almost a marine now.

[the bird]

jan 19th 2007 i will be a marine and i can't wait to get off this island. i been here for almost 3 months and this is my first free time in a long time. see ya'll this saturday. i got to go.


love the bird.

[-57-]

Wow.. damn man, good to hear from you, and congrats.. see you when you're done! :)

[VAMP7]

how was it? I heard the first 3 weeks were hell but the rest was cake. Tell me everything cause i was thinking about becoming a marine. Oh and congrats:D

[MicSpor]

Congrats Bird.

:)

[mantis33]

Much respect.

[KBHoleN1]

Sweet! Birdy's coming back! Congrats man, can't wait to see you.

[The Ultimater]

sweet, I would love to be a marine but I would rather do something where I wouldn't get killed. ;)

and congratz on making it.

[VAMP7]

Well not if you play it smart. Oh and the iraq people are cheap with those dam IED'S

[Blexican]

Much respect.

same,

much respect indeed.

[Cuathon]

sned me a picture of you in your marine uniform so i can tell my friend to shut the hell up.

and have fun al.

[Wizzy`]

sned me a picture of you in your marine uniform so i can tell my friend to shut the hell up.

and have fun al.

What? Did you say oyu knew someone in the marines? :p


Nice Job Bird, hope to see you soon.

[Buster]

jan 19th 2007 i will be a marine and i can't wait to get off this island. i been here for almost 3 months and this is my first free time in a long time. see ya'll this saturday. i got to go.


love the bird.

This will do,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCt1Y5HBkRc

Way to go Birdy!

[Blood And Gore]

Very nice bird.

I'm thinking to join the army so than I could pwn some Iraquies. HeLlZ YA!

(No dis-respect to any Iraquian Forums members)

[Ninai]

Bird is coming back soon...

[***Duo***]

Congratz' Bird!
I really hope things go well.
I look forward to talking with you about your experience. :)


-Duo

[Entourage]

jan 19th 2007 i will be a marine and i can't wait to get off this island. i been here for almost 3 months and this is my first free time in a long time. see ya'll this saturday. i got to go.


love the bird.

Your goin to be a Marine and thats how you expres it. Not too impressed with that, come. You're goin to be a United States Marine! Oorah matha-F****er!

Semper Fi Marine, and may your Marine Corps life be a safe one.

[elimination]

Congratuations Bird!!!
I hope to see you again saturday :)
I'm still debating if I want to go to the army or not....

[WaCk-HeAd]

Very nice bird.

I'm thinking to join the army so than I could pwn some Iraquies. HeLlZ YA!

(No dis-respect to any Iraquian Forums members)

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Aside the very, very small possibility there's an Iraqi forum member, you actually mean "no-disrespect"?

What do you want them to think?

"Hey, you want to join the army that's currently at war with my country, just to kill some of my people, but that's fine, because you don't mean any disrespect."

Hahahahahahaha

[shatterstar]

good luck bird. dont get killed. try not to kill anyone.

Very nice bird.

I'm thinking to join the army so than I could pwn some Iraquies. HeLlZ YA!

(No dis-respect to any Iraquian Forums members)

war and life are not a video game. grow the fuck up. and learn to spell.

[Teacher]

Bird, it is good to hear from you. Don't know a lot about the Marines but if you have any questions I'm sure I could help you out. Hell, come to think of it, I believe Megabyte is an officer in the Marines he may be of some help also. Congratulations on your graduation, you should be damn proud of yourself.

Elimination- If you have any questions concerning the Army, I would be happy to help out.

Shatter- I would rep you if I was able too.

[Megabyte]

jan 19th 2007 i will be a marine and i can't wait to get off this island. i been here for almost 3 months and this is my first free time in a long time. see ya'll this saturday. i got to go.


love the bird.

welcome aboard, soldier

edit: and teacher is correct, I'm officially a 2'nd Lt in active service as of this past fall. I'm not sure how much of a help I can be to other people interested (or involved) in the service, but I suppose it never hurts to ask.

[mushroom_girl]

Wow, I had no idea we had that many forum members active in the armed forces! :)

Good luck guys, and congrats bird! Woooo!

[lightning lord7]

hope you have a safe trip back to your old home.Welcome back bird.its great to have you back on the forums

[EmelGreenLeafer]

Air force kicks ass :cool2:

[inked]

Navy FTW.

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Way to go bro, hold your head up high.

My brother's a marine, he said it was hell but he's damn proud. Got injured during boot, spent a few weeks in medical, came out, toughed it out with a new platoon.

[ChainHeart]

=O oh snap!

...how hard was it for you for the last 3 month?

[Ludican]

Nice flying back in bird cannot wait to here ur stories :)

[Cuathon]

Very nice bird.

I'm thinking to join the army so than I could pwn some Iraquies. HeLlZ YA!

(No dis-respect to any Iraquian Forums members)

i know other people said it, but damn! you dont know shit about war. or an insurgency. just remember, you cant just pick up a health pack every ten wounds or so.

[POL4K]

Yo Bird good you flew back :D

[†Nuke'em†]

Congratulations, much respect to you.

Oh yeah, I just gotta say this.GIVE'EM HELL!(if you go to combat zone)

[Sangro]

good most people wouldnt bother with risking their lives for our country..especially our own congressmen

[meat.eater]

sweet, I would love to be a marine but I would rather do something where I wouldn't get killed. ;)

and congratz on making it.

They're not being trained to get killed....

[Megabyte]

Exactly how many people need training on how to get killed, anyways?

good most people wouldnt bother with risking their lives for our country..especially our own congressmen

I've come to the realization that every time you post I like you less and less.

While that may be true for a lot of people here, you definitely stand out from the pack in this regard.

[WaCk-HeAd]

We agree again. It's scary.

[KickAssPlaya]

We agree again. It's scary.

It is love! :eek:

~KAP

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Hey hey hey..

Keep the flames out of here, just congratulate the man. Use your negs and PMs.

Do you know where you're being stationed?

[Apocalypse0375]

DAEMON!!!!!:) Aynways im glad your going into the marines because my brother is in the marines :D

[Chaos 4.0]

the bird, I have no idea who you are but that's probably just because I haven't been here very long. Good luck as a Marine though.

[the bird]

ok. i will make a thread about my boot camp exp to share with ya'll. cuathon i sent u 3 letters while i was there u bastard and u never sent me one back. all good i will be back soon to make that thread.

[Blood And Gore]

The Bird is one tough son of a bitch. I mean, he plays lacrosse, now he's becoming a marine. Nice. :cool2:

[the bird]

Hey hey hey..

Keep the flames out of here, just congratulate the man. Use your negs and PMs.

Do you know where you're being stationed?

yeah, i talked to some people for my orders and they said i will be in 3/6 if u know what that means. but if u don't then it is 3 bn 6 marines reg

[Jeffery]

See, now you're almost a marine.

And someday you might even almost be a man. ;)

[Ignition]

Pffffft.

[the bird]

jeffery i'm a us marine now. i'm on my 10 day leave. basicly i will say this about boot camp. i learned so much there on how to be a killer that i want to go kill me a rag head right now. i watched movies that the media don't get to see and it makes me pissed that americans are dieing. if i got to give my life to save 5 people then i will die knowing that those 5 people will live there life the best they can. 1 dead person is the price to pay to save 5 people these days. if that comes up then i know i did my job as a marine but my job is not to die for my country, it is to make the other poor bastard die for his country. when i leave for iraq i want ya'll to know that i won't give up no matter what even if i'm the only person left to fight cause i won't die with out a fight. i learned more then just killing people but i learned displine. marine corps boot camp is the best thing i have every done in my whole life.

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

You and my brother would get along very well

[Megabyte]

jeffery i'm a us marine now. i'm on my 10 day leave. basicly i will say this about boot camp. i learned so much there on how to be a killer that i want to go kill me a rag head right now. i watched movies that the media don't get to see and it makes me pissed that americans are dieing. if i got to give my life to save 5 people then i will die knowing that those 5 people will live there life the best they can. 1 dead person is the price to pay to save 5 people these days. if that comes up then i know i did my job as a marine but my job is not to die for my country, it is to make the other poor bastard die for his country. when i leave for iraq i want ya'll to know that i won't give up no matter what even if i'm the only person left to fight cause i won't die with out a fight. i learned more then just killing people but i learned displine. marine corps boot camp is the best thing i have every done in my whole life.

can it until you're in the field, soldier

Training is tough, and weeds out the fools. Congrats on proving you're the former and not the latter.

But service is where the real lessons are learned. You're not finishing an adventure, it hasn't even started yet. You've learned discipline, but you havn't had to use it yet. Keep that in mind.

[the bird]

what unit is he with. if he is in 2 marine div or 2 mlg div then i may be able to see him. the only thing i know right now is that 6 reg of 2 div is going to iraq to help with the war over there and that the unit i will be in and there doing a 7 month tour with them.

mega can u stop calling me a soldier. soldier = army. i'm a marine so call me a marine. i mean when i say in my words. i been trained my some of the best di the us has to offer. one of them was a navy cross winner a few others with silver stars.

[Megabyte]

mega can u stop calling me a soldier. soldier = army. i'm a marine so call me a marine. i mean when i say in my words. i been trained my some of the best di the us has to offer. one of them was a navy cross winner a few others with silver stars.

As I've said, congrats and welcome. I don't use the slang outside of my own service and training, got it boot? I don't mind that you're proud of your work, but don't forget you're not the first, nor are you alone.

If I refer to you as a soldier, it's a soldier in the patriotic service to your country, not some hacked out slang that divides the services. I value what I took from training, but I don't disrespect the other branches by devaluing their work and being insulted in such a manner. Whatever can be said of them, they serve the same cause you and I do.

You should also take the time to read the other posts made by people in the thread. Sorry I won't be meeting up with you anytime soon. I'm finishing my degree and will remain on off AD until this summer, when I'll ship to Pendleton and join the 3/1.

[Ignition]

Would "maggot" suffice?

[Megabyte]

Would "maggot" suffice?

if you wanna get technical, boot is a fresh one out of training

Maggot is for hollywood :)


Give us a picture of you in your blues, bird, if you can ;) For posterity if nothing else.


Besides, I'm sure mushroom and ele would get all bothered.

[the bird]

we didn't get blues, only honor grad got blues. all we got was service uniforms. i got 1 alpha, 2 bravos and 3 charlies. my mom took some pic's on grad day and family day. it was raining on family day so we had to wear out field camie's and on grad day we had alphas on. when i get the cd tomorrow from wal-mart i will put them on here. mega what branch are u in? i'm guessing marines but i could be wrong. when do u ship out to 1 bn 3 marines? u do know that they are going to iraq in a few months?

[Chaos 4.0]

Edit: Sorry for the noobyness, I was reading the wrong page.

[Ignition]

I would love to see both of you in uniform of any kind!

[urm8]

Necross: I bet you would. ;)
the bird: Congratulations.

[Ignition]

Necross: I bet you would. ;)
the bird: Congratulations.

Why wouldn't I?
I love them bothhttp://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/Kyl02/Hart.gif

[urm8]

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Love/gay-love-100.gif
I don't know why.
I am just kidding.

I know why.

the bird: What job field are you going into in the Marines?

[Jeffery]

jeffery i'm a us marine now. i'm on my 10 day leave. basicly i will say this about boot camp. i learned so much there on how to be a killer that i want to go kill me a rag head right now. i watched movies that the media don't get to see and it makes me pissed that americans are dieing. if i got to give my life to save 5 people then i will die knowing that those 5 people will live there life the best they can. 1 dead person is the price to pay to save 5 people these days. if that comes up then i know i did my job as a marine but my job is not to die for my country, it is to make the other poor bastard die for his country. when i leave for iraq i want ya'll to know that i won't give up no matter what even if i'm the only person left to fight cause i won't die with out a fight. i learned more then just killing people but i learned displine. marine corps boot camp is the best thing i have every done in my whole life.
Now they just need to teach you capitalization.....

Remember, a good soldier is not a man who dies for his country. A good soldier is a man who makes the OTHER guy die for his.

[KickAssPlaya]

Now they just need to teach you capitalization.....

Remember, a good soldier is not a man who dies for his country. A good soldier is a man who makes the OTHER guy die for his.

He said that in a previous post.. ;)

~KAP

[Jeffery]

He said that in a previous post.. ;)

~KAP
Liek I actully rad the frums.... :roll eyes:

[_Thunder_]

Liek I actully rad the frums.... :roll eyes:

Ya like anyone deos stuipd head.:rolleyes:

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

My bro's up in Monterey learning Korean right now actually, not deployed anywhere.

He's got this thing where he doesn't recognize the value of the other military branches though.. Can't say I get that.

Ah well, if I do get into the USAFA, I plan on showing him up a little in some sparring :cool:

[Megabyte]

Not unusual, most people in the service disrespect the other branches to some degree or another. I can't even claim immunity, as I can't stand being referred to as a jarhead by some grunt as an example.

we didn't get blues, only honor grad got blues. all we got was service uniforms. i got 1 alpha, 2 bravos and 3 charlies. my mom took some pic's on grad day and family day. it was raining on family day so we had to wear out field camie's and on grad day we had alphas on. when i get the cd tomorrow from wal-mart i will put them on here. mega what branch are u in? i'm guessing marines but i could be wrong. when do u ship out to 1 bn 3 marines? u do know that they are going to iraq in a few months?

Aye, I'm guessing I'll be joining in later, though I suppose there's always the possibility of transfer happening before then to a division deploying later.

They're the division I was assigned upon completion of my program and getting commissioned last summer, but since the contingency of my active service is completetion of my degree that could change (originally was going to graduate a semester early, hence the assigning).

I won't have a set ship-out date until I have the grades from this upcoming semester and the degree on the books (verifying completion). Sort of thankful for that, to be honest. I'm not especially looking forward to my duties or an active tour right now.

[the bird]

ya'll wanted pic's of me so i got them for u. pic's of me at boot camp.

http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=976738r1021a0032ee.jpg
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=976738r1054a0064ju.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=976738r1076a0089wf.jpg
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=976738r11211a0130bi.jpg
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=976738r11312a0144ve.jpg
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=976738r11817a0191zz.jpg

[HatchetKlown17]

how was it? I heard the first 3 weeks were hell but the rest was cake. Tell me everything cause i was thinking about becoming a marine. Oh and congrats:D

They don't let idiots become marines.

[the bird]

yeah that is true. we had someone dropped cause he was adhd 1 week before we was getting off that island. it sucked so bad cause he was almost a marine. it was that he was adhd but he was retarded on the side of that. marine corp boot camp is hard. just in our plt we started off with 82 people and we dropped 11 people. not everyone can be a marine. honstly i don't want to write a long post on boot camp. lets just say u was training 24/7 and it was really hard. what every u here about boot camp is a lie. it was hard all the way untill the last week. one of our di's was mean all the way untill we left the island. i say it got harder as boot camp went on cause u started to do harder stuff. bwt, a-line and the crucible was the hardest. we did it in the rain and it was cold so i got to get all wet, muddy for 56 hours with only 8 hours sleep total while going though war ( fake war ) but gun fire and mortor fire was going off like crazy almost all day. all we did was mission after misson. one of our missions was during the rain and we had to crawl under wire for 100 yds in beach sand like we was stroming a beach head. yeah it was fun but it was really cold. thats i'm saying about boot camp. btw they don't care how hot or how cold it is or if it is raining or snowing or what not your butt is training.

[young cha]

hey nice job bird ill be there soon i got my training done at 14 (uncles a LT.) what platon are u in?

[Megabyte]

your butt is training.

too true

bleh, thanks alot for some not so pleasent flashbacks

[Northwind]

i learned so much there on how to be a killer that i want to go kill me a rag head right now.
Wow. I don't even know what to say to this. I guess I naively hoped that they weren't training Marines to be blood-thirsty racists. My bad. :(

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

Trust me Northwind, holidays in my family are... special.

My aunt is going for her Masters in Art History, she's pretty damn liberal. My Dad will sit her and my brother together on purpose. Meanwhile, the rest of us just kinda watch with wide eyes and wonder when my grandmother's going to kill one of the two of them.

If you gave my brother a nuke and gave him the choice to hit the big red button, he would bomb all of the middle east without hesitation. He was BAPTIZED in the god damn kool-aid.

[Megabyte]

Wow. I don't even know what to say to this. I guess I naively hoped that they weren't training Marines to be blood-thirsty racists. My bad. :(

I'm not even gonna address this, suffice to say...cram it where the sun don't shine, northy.

[WaCk-HeAd]

I'm not even gonna address this, suffice to say...cram it where the sun don't shine, northy.

You don't see anything wrong with bird's statement right after his training?

And you're becoming a high-ranked officer, right?

Wow.

[Northwind]

I'm not even gonna address this, suffice to say...cram it where the sun don't shine, northy.
Seriously Mega?

I'm genuinely surprised to see you stand up for someone who says he "wants" to kill a "rag head." What is remotely defensible about that comment? On what planet is that not a despicable statement? And you support it? It looks like I've seriously misjudged your character Mega. I'm truly sorry to see you defend this.

My comment was not about soldiers or the military or the Marines. Being a soldier can be an honorable calling and I know many good men and women who are and have served in the military.

But "wanting" to kill "rag heads" just seems like a really, really shitty thing to say and it disgusts me to my core. I hope I misinterpretted the meaning of your post. And for that matter, I hope bird didn't really mean it. But if he did, then he doesn't get to claim any moral high ground against terrorists or anyone else.

[dirka dirka]

It does look like something shitty to say. Here is the thing, it depends on what he meant by rag head. To me, a rag head is a Muslim and that is why it sounds so bad. If by rag head he meant a terrorist, because of the Muslim terrorist connotation, then his statement is a little less vulgar.

[†Nuke'em†]

Welcome to the Marines, they cuss, they say shit, and they keep moral high. (yes being vulgar is a way to keep up moral, however politically incorrect it may be) But I am thinking that a "rag head" is a term for an Islamic Extremist. Not the normal average Muslim that anyone can get along with.

[Worker]

Welcome to the Marines, they cuss, they say shit, and they keep moral high. (yes being vulgar is a way to keep up moral, however politically incorrect it may be) But I am thinking that a "rag head" is a term for an Islamic Extremist. Not the normal average Muslim that anyone can get along with.You can use that mentality to justify using any racial slur. "I only meant a specific part of that ethnic group"

[†Nuke'em†]

No, I am not saying that I am that way, but, What did we call the people we were fighting in previce wars? Japanese (Japs) a derogatory term. Germans (Krauts) also derogatory. Vietnamese (Gooks) you get the point. Now, I don't mean to sound like I am supporting it.

Now, do you or do you not call someone a nigger or a jew? (terribly sorry if
I offend anyone) Then, technically calling someone a rag head is the samething. Again I don't support it.

[the bird]

yeah i don't think northwind really got what i ment by rag head. basicly it is not to be raceist or what not. our di's and officers said that word as will. if a ltcol said that then i'm sure it was a ok word to us since the marines don't have room for raceist people. basicly is means a middle east terrorist.

[Realist]

They don't let idiots become marines.

Seems that's all they let in.

[the bird]

no cause i seen people get dropped for be retarded. u have no clue what kind of training we been though. not only did we learn how to kill people but we had to learn first aid and past a test on it and we had to learn a shit load academics. if u havn't done it then u have no room to talk. if i was raciest then i would be charged under 134 which i'm sure u have no clue what that is. if a lt col says it then it is ok to say.

[WaCk-HeAd]

no cause i seen people get dropped for be retarded. u have no clue what kind of training we been though. not only did we learn how to kill people but we had to learn first aid and past a test on it and we had to learn a shit load academics. if u havn't done it then u have no room to talk. if i was raciest then i would be charged under 134 which i'm sure u have no clue what that is. if a lt col says it then it is ok to say.

You've got to be kidding me.

[Megabyte]

Seriously Mega?

Well, one..it's not as racist as you're taking it. Whether you like it or think it politically incorrect, foes obtain nicknames in combat situations. Weapons, ethnicities, vehicles, etc, all get nicknames. *shrug* Not our prob if you don't like them.


But to the heart of the matter...

I'll say it really simply, you're not one, so don't talk about how one behaves.

It's a simple put up or shut up.


Join the service, take some active tours, then talk. Until then, none of you are in a position to comment on the attitudes of any service member. It's the same hubris that convinces politicians that they know what's best for the service man, to my mind, just in the common person.

Unreasoning hate is one thing, but service members who've been under fire from a people, or seen a mob turn against them, are hardly without reason. We don't care what the underlying political history or reasoning is for these things when they happen. All you know is that you're under assault and they are the ones doing it.

The service men are the ones who sacrafice for the freedoms and safety in this nation that you all seem to laud. Honor them, yes, but don't forget the nature of that sacrafice. They deal with things beyond your experiences, and you should be thankful they dealt with it so you can live in a place that won't have to.

[Northwind]

But to the heart of the matter...

I'll say it really simply, you're not one, so don't talk about how one behaves.

It's a simple put up or shut up.
Wow. I honestly expected better of you Mega. This is truly terrible logic. So if I'm not a soldier, I can't disapprove of the soldiers who tortured prisoners at Abu Graib? If I'm not a soldier I can't condemn the murderous assholes responsible for the Mai Lai massacre? What the hell are you talking about? Dispicable behavior is despicable behavior regardless of who carries it out.

As for the "rag head" issue, my objection is not a PC one. Such terms dehumanize others and make it easier to kill them - because they're not as "human" as we are. Once we dehumanize them, it's not much harder to kill them than it is to kill a chicken. This is the same process responsible for the massacre of the Tutsi's in Rwanda and all the other genocidal situations.

It is also a problem because it unneccesarily pits two cultures against each other (us vs. those turban-wearing people) and perpetuates the cycle of hate that got us into the whole frickin' mess.

And, bird, "rag head" is dehumanizing regardless of whether a foot soldier, lt. colonel, general, or the President says it. You can't pawn off your responsiblity to make moral decisions onto others. If something is wrong, it's wrong regardless of who else is doing it.

Perhaps the scariest part of this whole thing, however, is bird's apparent eagerness to kill. Sure, there are times when killing is necessarily and even a morally defensible thing to do. But to look forward to killing other people suggests that bird's training has destroyed an important piece of his soul. (This, not coincidentally, is exactly what the training is intended and designed to do, but it is horrible none-the-less).

I would seriously hope that for two people entering into the service, both of you might look within yourselves and examine your assumptions and behavior. But then, I'm apparently really, really naive. :(

[dirka dirka]

Well, one..it's not as racist as you're taking it. Whether you like it or think it politically incorrect, foes obtain nicknames in combat situations. Weapons, ethnicities, vehicles, etc, all get nicknames. *shrug* Not our prob if you don't like them.uld be thankful they dealt with it so you can live in a place that won't have to.

It is racist no matter what way you put it. It's just a little less vulgar when applied to your connotation.

The service men are the ones who sacrafice for the freedoms and safety in this nation that you all seem to laud. Honor them, yes, but don't forget the nature of that sacrafice. They deal with things beyond your experiences, and you should be thankful they dealt with it so you can live in a place that won't have to.

Get off your high horse. You don't deal with things beyond commonplace experience. Realize you're one of many.

[the bird]

i'm with mega all the way. i have been trained by those who has been over there abd yeah they are hard to kill. this is what a few of them had to say about " them". they fire a few shots then they run and u can't catch them cause they run in a car or they use ied's they kill about 5 of us then they fire a few shots and run. that place is broken out in a civil war. a good side and the bad side aka rag heads. both me and mega are going over there so we have some room to talk. i'm just going to stop right there.

[Realist]

It's the same hubris that convinces politicians that they know what's best for the service man, to my mind, just in the common person.

And perhaps the same hubris that causes soldiers to join the armed forces and participate in the killing of individuals they know nothing about?

[the bird]

so realist what u are basicly saying is let them kill americans. if we stop killing them then they will attack us on our home land again and attack unarmed americans over there. they are already killing unarmed americans over there as well as troops. if we don't act then another 911 could happen.

[dirka dirka]

so realist what u are basicly saying is let them kill americans. if we stop killing them then they will attack us on our home land again and attack unarmed americans over there. they are already killing unarmed americans over there as well as troops. if we don't act then another 911 could happen.

Brainwashed. I don't support Realist's stupidity, nor was that remotely correct. Think for yourself.

[the bird]

yeah i was brainwashed into a killer. i kill those who kill our people.

[dirka dirka]

yeah i was brainwashed into a killer. i kill those who kill our people.

and those who don't. Regardless, you were brainwashed into thinking you're preventing foreign invasion into the U.S. If anything, you're helping to anger people to make that more possible and likely.

[the bird]

not really. listen to the state of the union.

[Megabyte]

cram it where the sun don't shine, dirka ;)
Like I said, put up or shut up. Join up and talk, or don't bother. It's not a highhorse, it's the reality.

Wow. I honestly expected better of you Mega. This is truly terrible logic. So if I'm not a soldier, I can't disapprove of the soldiers who tortured prisoners at Abu Graib?

Your expectations must have me labeled as an idiot, if you think I'm going to buy into that crap.

I dunno about naieve, but poorly thought out is starting to enter the list as a prominant feature. What does an attitude that all soldiers have compare to the actions of a few? There's a difference between the two, even if you want to take an extreme situation and place it as the norm.

Granted there are some basis between the root of both types, but the military (especially the marines ;)) teaches discipline and self control at the forefront before all else. Abandonment of such a teaching is the abandonment of the military ideals as a whole, and the results are the military trials and punishment. That alone is a concrete division of the soldier attitude and those that commit such deads alone.



Don't try to sidebar my point as some sort of generalization and dismissal of poor behaviors. If you can't differentiate the difference between the average soldier and those that commit atrocities you've only confirmed my point from above...citizens know jack shit about what the servicemen go through.

In the larger social picture, I can agree and adhere to your points on the principle for which they stand and what they mean for people as a whole. However, soldiers serving in combat situations do not have the luxury of such principles and ideals. This is what you are just not getting.

It's be nice if I could adhere to my principles and ideals when I go off for my tour, but that's gonna happen. Dehumanizaiton maybe harsh, but it's a necessity to us when in combat. I can't bother to think of the person behind the weapon aiming at me, I need to focus on survival.


As for Bird *shrug* Nothing on him. Fresh boot straight from the camps, he's got the right attitude to go out there. It may seem harsh to those that know no better, but it'll serve him well on his tour. His attitude will help keep him safe, stay alive, and do his duty. The service doesn't teach complacency or the social implications of why you're there, it teaches you how to do your job and survive there and after.

Also, as a last fyi, I'm not "just entering" the service. I'm a comissioned officer who's been training for 4 the last 4 years :) The service is as much a part of me as anything else.

[dirka dirka]

cram it where the sun don't shine, dirka ;)
Like I said, put up or shut up. Join up and talk, or don't bother.

I'm sorry, what are you doing? Oh, it's called talking. These are forums where we communicate with words. So since you can't put up on these forums, by your own merit you must shut up. You ain't shit. You can train a monkey to fire a gun.

not really. listen to the state of the union.

I was watching it, it got boring. I did enjoy the guy that brainwashed you trying not to laugh the entire time though, lmao.


Racism will get you killed. You're looking at the rag heads and over your corner comes a non-rag headed terrorist. Just STFU with your bullshit.

[Megabyte]

I'm sorry, what are you doing? Oh, it's called talking. These are forums where we communicate with words. So since you can't put up on these forums, by your own merit you must shut up. You ain't shit. You can train a monkey to fire a gun.


I've considered that last, but that's beside the point.


Try reading back and taking a concept called "context" into consideration. Or if you'd prefer for me to treat you like an idiot I could spell it out. Your call really.

[KBHoleN1]

Ahh! You're arguing with each other over things you can't change. These racist/xenophobic ideas come out of necessity. Not necessity of living, but necessity of the way of life that the leaders of this country want to have. We (as a country) feel that we must use every advantage to fight wars (no matter what the cost on personal lives and society and culture).

Military personnel are trained to hate their enemy, it's been that way for thousands of years, and it is a worldwide phenomenon. While we'd like to think that we live in a world where society has advanced enough to get past this, the reality is that we don't. And the sad part is that change in this area, the idea that you can respect other types of people for who they are, and try to live together in relative unity, this change can't be singular. The world as a whole has to wake up. It benefits the war machines to motivate their troops, to make them efficient killing machines, and to remind them who it is they want to kill. That doesn't make it right by any means, but once again it has developed into a necessity if one side intends to "win". I am not defending the mindset, but the best way to change something is to understand why it happens in the first place.

Lay off of bird, he does what he has to to get by. Correct him, offer suggestions, but don't demean what he is doing. Everyone makes mistakes, and when put in situations like this its easy to see how one can lose sight of the bigger picture. The reality is that the war is not the solution to the problem, however, I don't think we know what the right answer is, at least not yet. Just show a little understanding. There are so many problems out there, we get caught up in placing blame instead of offering solutions.

P.S. - Paragraphs are the bane of stream of consciousness. Sometimes there shouldn't be a break in a rant, it makes it more powerful and flowing :p

[Realist]

so realist what u are basicly saying is let them kill americans.

If Americans invade their country, sure.

[dirka dirka]

Try reading back and taking a concept called "context" into consideration. Or if you'd prefer for me to treat you like an idiot I could spell it out. Your call really.

It has nothing to do with context. It has everything to do with you thinking you're special enough to justify racism. You ain't shit.

[Geoffrey]

KB use paragraphs when you post. Also people why do you lower yourselves to Dirka's level and fight with him?

[the bird]

hey hey hey lay off a little. i been gone for 3 months to the day. 3 months of being around killers and everyone using the word rag head and all they dream about is going to iraq and killing a few of them then yeah i will turn into one of them. ya'll can deal with it for 5 more days thanks mega for defending me.

[Worker]

KB use paragraphs when you post. Also people why do you lower yourselves to Dirka's level and fight with him?Troll of the week :rolleyes:

hey hey hey lay off a little. i been gone for 3 months to the day. 3 months of being around killers and everyone using the word rag head and all they dream about is going to iraq and killing a few of them then yeah i will turn into one of them. In prison you are surrounded by killers and racist too. All joking aside though...good luck bird.

[Northwind]

I dunno about naieve, but poorly thought out is starting to enter the list as a prominant feature. What does an attitude that all soldiers have compare to the actions of a few? There's a difference between the two, even if you want to take an extreme situation and place it as the norm.
Mega, your point was that I can't criticize anything a soldier might do because I am not a soldier (did I understand you correctly?). My point is that that is no defense. Just as I, as a human being, can rightly condemn the actions of soldiers who participate in torture or massacres, I can also condemn bloodthirsty behavior regardless of who engages in it - soldier or otherwise.

Granted there are some basis between the root of both types, but the military (especially the marines ;)) teaches discipline and self control at the forefront before all else. Abandonment of such a teaching is the abandonment of the military ideals as a whole, and the results are the military trials and punishment. That alone is a concrete division of the soldier attitude and those that commit such deads alone.

My point is NOT that all soldiers are bad. My point is that some are bad (as some of all people are bad. But more specific to this instance, eagerness to kill rag heads is bad. Is it an example of "discipline and self-control" to say "I want to kill rag heads?" It is interesting to me what you would choose to defend.
Don't try to sidebar my point as some sort of generalization and dismissal of poor behaviors. If you can't differentiate the difference between the average soldier and those that commit atrocities you've only confirmed my point from above...citizens know jack shit about what the servicemen go through.

And don't purposely misunderstand my claiming my right to condemn immoral behavior - whoever commits it.

In the larger social picture, I can agree and adhere to your points on the principle for which they stand and what they mean for people as a whole. However, soldiers serving in combat situations do not have the luxury of such principles and ideals. This is what you are just not getting.

But bird WASN'T in a combat situation. He was sitting comfortably at his computer, waxing poetic about how great it will be to go over to Iraq and "kill some rag heads."

It's be nice if I could adhere to my principles and ideals when I go off for my tour, but that's (not?) gonna happen. Dehumanizaiton maybe harsh, but it's a necessity to us when in combat. I can't bother to think of the person behind the weapon aiming at me, I need to focus on survival.

Again, what someone may have to draw on in the heat of battle is very different from imagining their feats of glory. Doing what one needs to do in battle is one thing. Looking forward to killing people seems quite another. Can you not see the difference here?

As for Bird *shrug* Nothing on him. Fresh boot straight from the camps, he's got the right attitude to go out there. It may seem harsh to those that know no better, but it'll serve him well on his tour. His attitude will help keep him safe, stay alive, and do his duty. The service doesn't teach complacency or the social implications of why you're there, it teaches you how to do your job and survive there and after.

This is straight up BS. His attitude will do nothing to keep him safe and do his duty. This "I can't wait to kill" attitude has nothing to do with safety or his duty and everything to do with ego and bloodthirsiness. Now, it's pretty likely that his attitude toward the whole enterprise will change once he actually sees what it's like to fire at and be fired at with live ammo (if he's like the majority of the service people in Iraq right now).

Also, as a last fyi, I'm not "just entering" the service. I'm a comissioned officer who's been training for 4 the last 4 years :) The service is as much a part of me as anything else.

It saddens me that a commissioned officer would reflexively defend someone saying they were excited about killing. I would hope you would have realized at some point during your four years of training, that being a soldier doesn't relieve one of the burden of being a human being.

In all this, I think Shatterstar said it best earlier in this thread in his reply to bird and (then) Blood and Gore.
good luck bird. dont get killed. try not to kill anyone.

war and life are not a video game. grow the fuck up. and learn to spell.

[the bird]

u guys are just making worse then it is. i know my job and u guys are thinking way over it. i know there is war over there i know all this stuff. if i die doing the right thing and doing my job then. like what mega said i have the right attitude to make it back. yeah i call them rag heads, yeah i fuck around but when it time to get down to killing and doing what i do best i will do it good. peace. someone close this thread please.

[dirka dirka]

hey hey hey lay off a little. i been gone for 3 months to the day. 3 months of being around killers and everyone using the word rag head and all they dream about is going to iraq and killing a few of them then yeah i will turn into one of them. ya'll can deal with it for 5 more days thanks mega for defending me.

Now, in a rep, you call me a raghead. You can't justify this idiocy. You're just blatantly stupid.

[the bird]

u called me an asshat. so go cry about it.

[dirka dirka]

u called me an asshat. so go cry about it.

Right, asshat is an insult. According to you, raghead means one of those Muslim terrorists. If you retaliate to asshat with the word raghead then obviously you are programmed to think anyone who doesn't like you is a raghead. So what if you can't get along with some of your fellow marines? That means, by your own merit, that they are ragheads. Don't you want to kill ragheads?! If you use it as a general insult, there is no way to justify it. You're just a dumb ass.

[Megabyte]

To dirka...as long as you can't wrap your mind around the concept that I'm not justifying a personal motivation, but explaining the realities of behavior from a group of people you're ignorant of, there's not point in even addressing you anymore.





This is straight up BS. His attitude will do nothing to keep him safe and do his duty. This "I can't wait to kill" attitude has nothing to do with safety or his duty and everything to do with ego and bloodthirsiness. Now, it's pretty likely that his attitude toward the whole enterprise will change once he actually sees what it's like to fire at and be fired at with live ammo (if he's like the majority of the service people in Iraq right now).


Most of your responses seem to stem from this (to my mind), so I'll work on this one mainly. What change is necessary for him?

That you don't understand his attitude is mildly understandable, but you shouldn't dismiss it in such a way. The military is a refined environment with far more resources than you can imagine going into that refinement. All of it meant to do the best it can to train people to do the best job possible and surivive. You dismiss the attitude as some sort of horrible thing, but it's there for a reason.

Holding this attitude gives one a sense of distrust and alertness while living in a hostile environment. We're trained that anyone could be a hostile in the middle east fronts. There isn't some shift in attitude between when live combat exists and normal living while on AD, the proper soldier is constantly prepared to enter combat. This is the main essence of safety and training, constant preperation.

My own training, learning, and experiences say that it is a good thing compared to alternatives.


It saddens me that a commissioned officer would reflexively defend someone saying they were excited about killing. I would hope you would have realized at some point during your four years of training, that being a soldier doesn't relieve one of the burden of being a human being.


Your sadness comes back to the ignorance of the common civilian point I made at the start. Just the wrong impression and the wrong context to ever understand, I suppose.

It comes down to choices. I accept the attitude and discipline the training gives me because it gives me a better chance of survival during my tours. The consequences of it all are there, but I'll be more likely to live to deal with them.


Honestly, I don't know what my exact purpose in berating you guys was. The experiences soldiers go through have always been poorly understood by outsiders throughout history, and I doubt anything short of something cataclysmic happening in the US would change that.

All I can summarize it is to say that while his form of expressing it aren't in my style, I don't dissaprove of Bird's attitude. I'd much prefer soldiers with his mindset than those who could become complacent with their humanizing of the enemy. I can help control and direct their attitude with the former, while there's little I can do for the latter.

[dirka dirka]

To dirka...as long as you can't wrap your mind around the concept that I'm not justifying a personal motivation, but explaining the realities of behavior from a group of people you're ignorant of, there's not point in even addressing you anymore.

To Megabyte... I'm not ignorant of the marines nor was I saying anything personal to you. The reality is that this isn't an accepted behavior. I don't give a shit who you are, this is racism, and it will get you nowhere. You can't argue for racism, as I said before: You'll be targeting the ragheads when some white catholic comes up and takes you by surprise. The realities are already very obvious, do you think that blacks just said "well this is just the reality of how it is, we're ignorant to their feelings and culture so we can't shame them for it." No, that's just simply dumb. It doesn't matter who I am, I can still tell you that you're a racist moron.

[Megabyte]

It doesn't matter who I am, I can still tell you that you're a racist moron.

Just as I can tell you that you're an ignorant fool ;)

No point in addressing a pointless and baseless post of idealist grandstanding. I'll simply say that you live your life, and I'll live mine.

[dirka dirka]

Just as I can tell you that you're an ignorant fool ;)

No point in addressing a pointless and baseless post of idealist grandstanding. I'll simply say that you live your life, and I'll live mine.

It has nothing to do with any ideals. This is just plain humanity. I'm not an ignorant fool, I've read and accepted everything you've said. If I'm an ignorant fool, you're at fault for that. Try and actually look at what you're doing. It isn't accepted, it has been overthrown in the past, and it is just plain stupid. There is no point in carrying out a pointless and baseless racist belief. You live your life and I'll live mine, sure; if I see your racist life being imposed on manipulatable people then I'm gonna say something along the lines of: You're a racist moron.

[Twelve]

Ahh! You're arguing with each other over things you can't change. These racist/xenophobic ideas come out of necessity. Not necessity of living, but necessity of the way of life that the leaders of this country want to have. We (as a country) feel that we must use every advantage to fight wars (no matter what the cost on personal lives and society and culture).

Military personnel are trained to hate their enemy, it's been that way for thousands of years, and it is a worldwide phenomenon. While we'd like to think that we live in a world where society has advanced enough to get past this, the reality is that we don't. And the sad part is that change in this area, the idea that you can respect other types of people for who they are, and try to live together in relative unity, this change can't be singular. The world as a whole has to wake up. It benefits the war machines to motivate their troops, to make them efficient killing machines, and to remind them who it is they want to kill. That doesn't make it right by any means, but once again it has developed into a necessity if one side intends to "win". I am not defending the mindset, but the best way to change something is to understand why it happens in the first place.

Lay off of bird, he does what he has to to get by. Correct him, offer suggestions, but don't demean what he is doing. Everyone makes mistakes, and when put in situations like this its easy to see how one can lose sight of the bigger picture. The reality is that the war is not the solution to the problem, however, I don't think we know what the right answer is, at least not yet. Just show a little understanding. There are so many problems out there, we get caught up in placing blame instead of offering solutions.

P.S. - Paragraphs are the bane of stream of consciousness. Sometimes there shouldn't be a break in a rant, it makes it more powerful and flowing :p

True common sense....

...but it's much more fun to argue so unfortunately this post will be ignored. I'm just quoting it again for the chance SOMEBODY with ears might hear it.

Bird, Mega....:good:

12

[Northwind]

Well, rather than try to convince people that giving up being human is too high a cost to pay for anyone (soldiers included), I thought I'd pass along this article I read some monthts ago about military training and how it is designed to desensitize soldiers to kill. I wouldn't say the article supports my or Mega/bird's points exactly, but it interesting none-the-less.

Page 1 (http://blog.blueca.net/images/8659-8339/BasicTrainingPart1.jpg)
Page 2 (http://blog.blueca.net/images/8659-8339/BasicTrainingPart2.jpg)
Page 3 (http://blog.blueca.net/images/8659-8339/BasicTrainingPart3.jpg)
Page 4 (http://blog.blueca.net/images/8659-8339/BasicTrainingPage4.jpg)
Page 5 (http://blog.blueca.net/images/8659-8339/BasicTrainingPage5.jpg)
Page 6 (http://blog.blueca.net/images/8659-8339/BasicTrainingPage6.jpg)
Page 7 (http://blog.blueca.net/images/8659-8339/BasicTrainingPage7.jpg)
Page 8 (http://blog.blueca.net/images/8659-8339/BasicTrainingPage8.jpg)

I'm curious about people's reactions to the article. I do know that I'd sure as hell want to read it if I were in the military.

[Realist]

Yeah, to KB and 12, arguing and blaming and insulting probably isn't going to solve anything. But what else can one do, when one sees so many people doing so many things so destructive to themselves and others. At first you might want to ignore it, say leave them be, it isn't their fault they got into these conditions, they might have "chose" it but in the end its a consequence of where they were born and what influences forces beyond their control input into them; if they were born Iraqis it's not unlikely that they would be on the other side right now, willing to sacrifice their own life and kill others for that other pointless country, or whatever meaningless ideology, or as NW's article wisely points out, just because they are conditioned to do so.

But it's hard to ignore it. Should be hard anyways. Should be hard to say nothing when you're seeing someone walking to destruction. Should be hard to see all the systems of the world working like they do and just say, hey, it's always been like this. And actual change, like really doing something, seems futile, you need some sort of resources, organizational capacity, most of us have none of this. So we argue as a way of fighting, a pointless way perhaps, but we don't have much else.

[dirka dirka]

To dirka...as long as you can't wrap your mind around the concept that...
I'd like to quote what uniq said about realist in a different thread.

Anytime someone doesn't agree with you on something, you assume it's because you are superior to them and they aren't smart enough to understand.
It isn't that I can't wrap my mind around the concept.

Hell, I'm quoting uniq.. that should say something. Anyway, I completely agree with what realist has to say on this topic. That should also say something. Me and realist never agree, nor do I ever respect a word uniq says. I broke two longstanding precedents in this thread.

[KBHoleN1]

Yeah, to KB and 12, arguing and blaming and insulting probably isn't going to solve anything. But what else can one do, when one sees so many people doing so many things so destructive to themselves and others. At first you might want to ignore it, say leave them be, it isn't their fault they got into these conditions, they might have "chose" it but in the end its a consequence of where they were born and what influences forces beyond their control input into them; if they were born Iraqis it's not unlikely that they would be on the other side right now, willing to sacrifice their own life and kill others for that other pointless country, or whatever meaningless ideology, or as NW's article wisely points out, just because they are conditioned to do so.

But it's hard to ignore it. Should be hard anyways. Should be hard to say nothing when you're seeing someone walking to destruction. Should be hard to see all the systems of the world working like they do and just say, hey, it's always been like this. And actual change, like really doing something, seems futile, you need some sort of resources, organizational capacity, most of us have none of this. So we argue as a way of fighting, a pointless way perhaps, but we don't have much else.
No, I don't think you should ignore it either. But flaming bird is not the answer. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand he's being asked to risk his life for his country (regardless of the merits of the war, he is serving this great nation), and on the other hand he's being expected to respect the people he's fighting, and not demean their culture in any way. Those two ideas are at direct odds with one another, because in order to equip him for survival, the military trains him to hate his enemy, not to try and understand why they are fighting. Its not up to the soldiers to second-guess their orders, that would lead to mass chaos and a break-down of the system. It's a flawed system, but tis one that bird has to deal with, for now.

I don't think it's right for him to use the term "rag-head", I would hope he would have a little more savvy about how his words are perceived. But when you hear him say it, the best thing to do is probably to say, "bird, I don't approve of that, the way you refer to them. Remember that they are people too, and they are doing the same thing you are, fighting for what they believe, and not questioning what they're superiors tell them. We are on their land, and they have an inherent right to defend it from foreign invaders. Do what you must, keep yourself safe, and serve your country. But please remember that the way you speak in public reflects upon this country and its military. "

But even then, its hard to ask him to live in such a duality, where hatred is key to survival in battle, but so frowned upon in a social and cultural setting. It's a lot to ask of a person, some people have it in them to handle it, some people devote themselves entirely to one idea or the other. I guess it's equivalent to keeping your head on a swivel, live in the moment, but remember that there is a bigger picture. Nothing about this is easy, for us, but especially not for him.

Bird, I love you for your commitment to this country, keep up the good work, I believe that your heart is in the right place. But please keep in mind that there is a bigger picture, and don't lose sight of the ultimate goal, to provide a better life not only for us, but for all the people of the world. Changing attitudes takes time, and maybe we don't have the right attitude either, in fact I know we (as a country) don't. But do the best you can, and this country will always support you. Much love, and you stay safe out there.

[BaxVarlet]

hey hey hey lay off a little. i been gone for 3 months to the day. 3 months of being around killers and everyone using the word rag head and all they dream about is going to iraq and killing a few of them then yeah i will turn into one of them. ya'll can deal with it for 5 more days thanks mega for defending me.

If only they trained you in basic communication skills. It wouldn't hurt if you used proper grammar every now and then, would it?

[Sangro]

so birds going away thread turns into a flame-off???
only on TAO...

[dirka dirka]

so birds going away thread turns into a flame-off???
only on TAO...

In all fairness, he did start it. Granted, he didn't know it would start.

[Northwind]

KB, I thought your last post was great.

And to both KB and 12, I can assure you that I've received no pleasure whatsoever in this thread. My main feelings are concern for bird's well-being and concern for the state of his "soul" (or whatever you want to call it).

Toward Mega things are a bit more complicated. I feel a bit disillusioned regarding his (apparent) narrow-minded response to my expression of alarm and I'm also concerned that even officers in the military aren't allowed to think in other than black-and-white terms. The world is a complicated place and it would be nice to know that SOMEONE in the military was aware of this.

My purpose was never to flame anyone, though I admit to being pretty creeped out by bird's original statement. I've sent a PM to him hopefully clarifying where I stand.

And truly, best of luck to both bird and Mega when they serve. Keep yourselves as safe a possible and do your duty without sacrificing your basic decency.

[KBHoleN1]

Northy, you know I love you, I'd rep you if I could. No matter what your opinon, you're always civil and well-spoken. Not to say that we don't agree at all on this subject, because we definitely do.

I think Mega took the wrong approach, but I can see where he's coming from. He's defending a brother in arms, and that is honorable. But he too should realize that there is a bigger picture.

Dirka is just dirka, his remarks are abrasive, and he rarely thinks about how his words are perceived. But his points are just as valid, you just have to look a little deeper to understand them.

[the bird]

ok i got something to say first off. north wind. i'm going to lay off of calling them rag head untill i get there. those news papers was on the army which we are not. we are trained by the best. we have people who has been there, people who has won the navy cross, silver stars and other high awards. we was trained to not treat this as a game. the army gets soda, they don't pt or do half the stuff we do. we train like it is the real thing. at the cruible we did war like missions. we did stuff from recon missions at night and if they seen us then we failed the mission. we went under wire in the mud, we carried each other like they were dead 1-2 miles just so we could get them to safty. after we did each mission we talked about it for 30 min's to see what we could have done better on it or what did we do wrong so next time when it comes up we can fix it. we didn't do this as a plt. we did this in groups of like 25 or so. war is not a game and we had people who trained who has been there and has lost there squard or fire team. they came here to train us not to make the same mistakes as they did. they gave us hour long classes and what the ememy has ready for us and what all they can do wire or what every. i bet ya'll didn't that in ww1 the ememy put human pee and human crap on wire and if u got cut then u got infected and most likly died. they still train us like that today. we even gassed us out there on the field and we had 9 sec's to get the gas mask on and to clear it of all gas before u was dead. believe me,u don't want cs gas in your system. i seen other people get fucked up cause of it. well thats all i have for right now.

[Realist]

I know, KB. Flaming anyone is not "the answer." But it's a natural response, just as natural as the one that causes him to do whatever he feels he has to do.

Punishing criminals isn't "the answer" either. They too do what they feel they have to do, based on the conditions that were given to them. Yet we still feel a need for revenge when people take something from us, no matter what their reasons. So too do I feel a need for revenge for people who are participating in destruction against people in the world in general, even if it doesn't affect me directly. It's a silly and irrational response, this anger, but no more silly, no less rational, than the response of the criminals themselves.

I know its not birds "fault." But his attitudes, and probably his actions, will be used in ways that are directly destructive to the world at large. So what does one do. If I could change it, I would. But I can't, or at least feel that I can't, so I react in other ways that are probably stupid, and certaintly human.

I don't think we actually disagree. Your point is a good one. But just consider it more broadly.

[Cuathon]

Mega, your point was that I can't criticize anything a soldier might do because I am not a soldier (did I understand you correctly?). My point is that that is no defense. Just as I, as a human being, can rightly condemn the actions of soldiers who participate in torture or massacres, I can also condemn bloodthirsty behavior regardless of who engages in it - soldier or otherwise.

Granted there are some basis between the root of both types, but the military (especially the marines ;)) teaches discipline and self control at the forefront before all else. Abandonment of such a teaching is the abandonment of the military ideals as a whole, and the results are the military trials and punishment. That alone is a concrete division of the soldier attitude and those that commit such deads alone.

My point is NOT that all soldiers are bad. My point is that some are bad (as some of all people are bad. But more specific to this instance, eagerness to kill rag heads is bad. Is it an example of "discipline and self-control" to say "I want to kill rag heads?" It is interesting to me what you would choose to defend.
Don't try to sidebar my point as some sort of generalization and dismissal of poor behaviors. If you can't differentiate the difference between the average soldier and those that commit atrocities you've only confirmed my point from above...citizens know jack shit about what the servicemen go through.

And don't purposely misunderstand my claiming my right to condemn immoral behavior - whoever commits it.

In the larger social picture, I can agree and adhere to your points on the principle for which they stand and what they mean for people as a whole. However, soldiers serving in combat situations do not have the luxury of such principles and ideals. This is what you are just not getting.

But bird WASN'T in a combat situation. He was sitting comfortably at his computer, waxing poetic about how great it will be to go over to Iraq and "kill some rag heads."

It's be nice if I could adhere to my principles and ideals when I go off for my tour, but that's (not?) gonna happen. Dehumanizaiton maybe harsh, but it's a necessity to us when in combat. I can't bother to think of the person behind the weapon aiming at me, I need to focus on survival.

Again, what someone may have to draw on in the heat of battle is very different from imagining their feats of glory. Doing what one needs to do in battle is one thing. Looking forward to killing people seems quite another. Can you not see the difference here?

As for Bird *shrug* Nothing on him. Fresh boot straight from the camps, he's got the right attitude to go out there. It may seem harsh to those that know no better, but it'll serve him well on his tour. His attitude will help keep him safe, stay alive, and do his duty. The service doesn't teach complacency or the social implications of why you're there, it teaches you how to do your job and survive there and after.

This is straight up BS. His attitude will do nothing to keep him safe and do his duty. This "I can't wait to kill" attitude has nothing to do with safety or his duty and everything to do with ego and bloodthirsiness. Now, it's pretty likely that his attitude toward the whole enterprise will change once he actually sees what it's like to fire at and be fired at with live ammo (if he's like the majority of the service people in Iraq right now).

Also, as a last fyi, I'm not "just entering" the service. I'm a comissioned officer who's been training for 4 the last 4 years :) The service is as much a part of me as anything else.

It saddens me that a commissioned officer would reflexively defend someone saying they were excited about killing. I would hope you would have realized at some point during your four years of training, that being a soldier doesn't relieve one of the burden of being a human being.

In all this, I think Shatterstar said it best earlier in this thread in his reply to bird and (then) Blood and Gore.

northwind, you cant just start dehumanizing them the instant you hit the field. it doesnt work like that. sometimes in iraq hew will be relatively safe, but he cant afford to lose his attitude for such a short time as ten days. once you break a habit its mildly difficult to get it back.

[Megabyte]

Toward Mega things are a bit more complicated. I feel a bit disillusioned regarding his (apparent) narrow-minded response to my expression of alarm and I'm also concerned that even officers in the military aren't allowed to think in other than black-and-white terms. The world is a complicated place and it would be nice to know that SOMEONE in the military was aware of this.


I just want to toss out one last part on that. I dislike that someone like myself who's lived with the realities of training and what it does to marines for years is considered the narrow minded one. Call me arrogant if you want, but I simply feel that I've put more thought and time into this subject than most of you (other service members aside). This isn't some issue I've observed on the news, or thought about since Bird made the thread...this is something I've had pushed at me and seen the effects on many others for a long time.

Agreed that the world is complicated, and my own differing responses (and means of response) from Bird should be example enough that the responses to the training are not universal on this issue alone (though I'll also say that there's a difference to my own training and birds aside from basic).

As I've said, my views on how we should be are hardly in agreement with the training on a lot of parts. However, I've come to a realization (through various means) that the training serves a deep purpose in keeping me alive. But being pre-dispositioned in your attitude doesn't mean you are without choices, morality, or thought on the subject. I find it interesting that due to an attitude base we're the ones considered narrow minded, despite the already obvious variety in responses to that attitude displayed here alone.


Lastly, just as with any job in the world, you must know your place. I may be an officer, but I'm not exactly someone running the show (nor will I ever be). It's not my place to discuss the moral perogatives of my orders in a lot of situations (in so much as they don't violate deeper goals of our troops purpose), just as it's not the job of a sales clerk to question and go against the corporate goals of his company. (don't take that last statment as a trivializing of what we do, just an example of comparisons ;))

When I signed into the service, I gave up certain freedoms and privelages as part of that. It's my duty to go where I'm sent, and perform the duties I'm given to the best of my ability. That's a simplification, of course, but you get the picture.

[dirka dirka]

Dirka is just dirka, his remarks are abrasive, and he rarely thinks about how his words are perceived. But his points are just as valid, you just have to look a little deeper to understand them.
Thanks, I think.

[Daemon Bloodmaw]

So.. can we give the bird his thunder back now?

Seriously..

[Cuathon]

lol

[the bird]

i aggree with cuathon.

[Cuathon]

well duh? :)>

[Northwind]

You know, I’ve been thinking about this whole thing a lot recently. And the more I think about it, the most disturbing part of all of this isn’t the racism or the grandstanding or the black-and-white thinking. The worst part of this is the apparent fact that our military now trains its soldiers to be excited about killing. Not to see it as a necessary evil or a burden to carry for the rest of us or the final line in protecting our nation, but exciting! Fun! Something to look forward to! Something cool and enjoyable and gratifying!

And maybe Mega’s right. Maybe there’s no other way to do it. Maybe anything less sets up our soldiers to be sitting ducks in one way or another. (Maybe.)

But there’s another side here. When we train soldiers to see killing other human beings as fun and exciting and exhilarating, we are taking something from them. We, as a nation, are stealing an essential part of their humanity – a part that we can’t give back when the war is over. A part that maybe it isn’t fair to ask ANYBODY to sacrifice. And that blood (or worse than blood) is on all of our hands when we say that its OK to take this from our soldiers.

My wife’s uncle is 93 years old. He served in World War II and was part of the D Day invasion. He is, by all accounts, a bona fide hero with the medals to prove it. But when asked to talk about his time in the service, he won’t. There is a haunted look in his eyes when he says “awww . . . you don’t want to hear about that” that makes it clear that he WILL NOT discuss what he saw during those terrible days. And yet, if he had to do it again, I’m guessing he would. Because it was the right thing to do at the time. But he doesn’t for one instance confuse his duty with fun! or excitement! or joy!

What have we lost when we turn the terrible business of war into something to look forward to? What will it cost us as a nation over time? What will it cost the bird and Megabyte?

I’m honestly not trying to steal anyone’s thunder. The bird no doubt worked his ass of in boot camp and has accomplished something to be truly proud of. He was pushed to the limit and he persevered. How many of us have it in us to do the same? But I can’t be excited about the fact that he’s being sent to Iraq to kill or be killed. I can’t think it’s a good thing to look forward to taking the life of a fellow human being. Maybe I’m naïve or arrogant or whatever else anyone wants to call me, but I can’t celebrate the joy of taking someone else’s life – even if that person is a terrorist.

[the bird]

yeah north is right, but i have something to add on that. north do u want someone who is scared to die for his country and not kill our foes who are killing fellow americans and those who are trying so hard to make a free nation like we have here. u want someone who is willing to defend america and it allies to death and ain't scared to pull that trigger. yeah i feel bad for the poor bastard i'm killing but i got to do what i got to do. this is one of a few things i have ever looked forward to in my whole life and if someone takes that away from me now then it is like i have no meaning for me thats why i told them i wanted to go to iraq as soon as i got out of training. i know our mission and why we are in this and i won't forget that even though people may forget that i know why.

[VAMP7]

You know, I’ve been thinking about this whole thing a lot recently. And the more I think about it, the most disturbing part of all of this isn’t the racism or the grandstanding or the black-and-white thinking. The worst part of this is the apparent fact that our military now trains its soldiers to be excited about killing. Not to see it as a necessary evil or a burden to carry for the rest of us or the final line in protecting our nation, but exciting! Fun! Something to look forward to! Something cool and enjoyable and gratifying!

And maybe Mega’s right. Maybe there’s no other way to do it. Maybe anything less sets up our soldiers to be sitting ducks in one way or another. (Maybe.)

But there’s another side here. When we train soldiers to see killing other human beings as fun and exciting and exhilarating, we are taking something from them. We, as a nation, are stealing an essential part of their humanity – a part that we can’t give back when the war is over. A part that maybe it isn’t fair to ask ANYBODY to sacrifice. And that blood (or worse than blood) is on all of our hands when we say that its OK to take this from our soldiers.

My wife’s uncle is 93 years old. He served in World War II and was part of the D Day invasion. He is, by all accounts, a bona fide hero with the medals to prove it. But when asked to talk about his time in the service, he won’t. There is a haunted look in his eyes when he says “awww . . . you don’t want to hear about that” that makes it clear that he WILL NOT discuss what he saw during those terrible days. And yet, if he had to do it again, I’m guessing he would. Because it was the right thing to do at the time. But he doesn’t for one instance confuse his duty with fun! or excitement! or joy!

What have we lost when we turn the terrible business of war into something to look forward to? What will it cost us as a nation over time? What will it cost the bird and Megabyte?

I’m honestly not trying to steal anyone’s thunder. The bird no doubt worked his ass of in boot camp and has accomplished something to be truly proud of. He was pushed to the limit and he persevered. How many of us have it in us to do the same? But I can’t be excited about the fact that he’s being sent to Iraq to kill or be killed. I can’t think it’s a good thing to look forward to taking the life of a fellow human being. Maybe I’m naïve or arrogant or whatever else anyone wants to call me, but I can’t celebrate the joy of taking someone else’s life – even if that person is a terrorist.

You speak true of heart. Tell me northwind do you get excited by playing a sport or certain activity? The excitement of killing prevents them from freezing up right when your about to shoot. And yes i know someone who was in Vietnam and yes the same look comes in his eyes the way yours does your wifes uncle does. I have lost my Grandpa to lung cancer when i was little and yes he was by all accounts a true hero someone to look up to. Not for the bloodshed but the sacrifices he made going to the war and giving up his life so that we may have ours. I have at least 3 or 4 grandpas that have been in Vietnam and i never see any of them because of what the war did to them. Their are movies about the wars about the Holocaust And D-Day. All are very graphic and very real. Now we come to the bird...yes a hero in some of our books crazy in others but very much real in all of ours. I for one say that the bird if a great person for serving his country which has asked so little of him to defend a cause which to this day is still debated to be Good or Bad.
Iraq. Well.. I guess change is difficult especially when "Americans" are on their land trying to change their way of life weather it be good or bad. But the fact is that they are risking their lives everyday and many Americans have shown their support by donating household items and comforts. We wish the troops well and hope that they will return soon from a country that needs to heal after the fall of one of it's dictators.

[Teacher]

ok i got something to say first off. north wind. i'm going to lay off of calling them rag head untill i get there. those news papers was on the army which we are not. we are trained by the best. we have people who has been there, people who has won the navy cross, silver stars and other high awards. we was trained to not treat this as a game. the army gets soda, they don't pt or do half the stuff we do. we train like it is the real thing. at the cruible we did war like missions. we did stuff from recon missions at night and if they seen us then we failed the mission. we went under wire in the mud, we carried each other like they were dead 1-2 miles just so we could get them to safty. after we did each mission we talked about it for 30 min's to see what we could have done better on it or what did we do wrong so next time when it comes up we can fix it. we didn't do this as a plt. we did this in groups of like 25 or so. war is not a game and we had people who trained who has been there and has lost there squard or fire team. they came here to train us not to make the same mistakes as they did. they gave us hour long classes and what the ememy has ready for us and what all they can do wire or what every. i bet ya'll didn't that in ww1 the ememy put human pee and human crap on wire and if u got cut then u got infected and most likly died. they still train us like that today. we even gassed us out there on the field and we had 9 sec's to get the gas mask on and to clear it of all gas before u was dead. believe me,u don't want cs gas in your system. i seen other people get fucked up cause of it. well thats all i have for right now.

Hmm, Bird you almost got me to argue with you about the above post. However, I would say that there is enough arguing, so I will swallow my pride and ask that you at least do some research prior to posting something about another military branch. Though, I will agree with you that the Marines are trained and treated more aggressively than any other branch, the Army is a close second. Most or what you stated our training is like is incorrect, at least it was for me, and I was being trained as a tanker. Someone that rode in an armor vehicle, therefore common sense tells me that the "grunts" were trained damn near as hard as you.... On to my next point.

We have heard the thoughts of many civilians, an officer in the Marines, and a new recruit that I admit is a bit overzealous. So I figured I would attempt to throw in the opinion or thoughts of an Army NCO.

Unfortunately, our soldiers are trained to dislike the enemy for the very reason Bird and Mega has stated. It is to allow them to do their job without having to deal with their conscious. It is believed or was that 40% of the troops will freeze during a battle for a minimal of 1 to 2 minutes. Some would go into instant shock others would be fine and be able to protect themselves. Though taking away their souls as Northy put it does seem extremely harsh, it is a necessity. Think about this for a second, a soldier goes to war and performs his duty then comes home. He will either deal with the killing by ignoring it mostly as Northy's grandfather did or he will come back to the U.S. and have emotional and psychopathic episodes. The Marines have always been known to get thrown into the battles and hostile areas first normally when it is the worst. By taking away their humanity, it helps to ignore the pain, stress, and shock of either killing or watching their buddy get killed.

Bird's training is no different from the sounds of it. When I went in, our mock wars were with Korea in mind, our DI's were veterans of the Gulf War, and we had a couple Vietnam vets. Unfortunately, racist terms were used then also, but I am sure not near as much as they are now. As bird stated, his instructors were already over there and have been able to form a hatred for the enemy. Therefore, they utilized the term "rag head" in their instructions. When Bird got to boot camp, normally the idea is to break the person down in order to form a soldier...Marine (Happy Bird?:p ) Therefore, he became a sponge and yes, to an extent one can consider it "brainwashed" I suppose. I guess all I am trying to say is try to understand why Bird and many other soldiers feel the way they do. It is trained into them, it is learned on the battlefield. The racial slurs came from not knowing who to trust, in Vietnam children would come up to soldiers booby trapped. I am sure that our enemy is not much different.

Bird, as an NCO I trained soldiers that came to my unit after boot camp. Keep in mind that things will be a lot different once you are at your unit. The eagerness you have to go and fight for your country is a great thing. However, it is possible to be over eager and allow yourself to put in the position were you may make a mistake. So when you do go over there, try to keep your focus. Do not let your emotions get the best of you.

Oh yeah, one more thing that I am sure Mega and many other people who have come into contact with new or young soldiers. They will normally have a feeling of great pride due to their accomplishments. They will tend to say things that were considered "normal" in boot camp. For example, "I'm ready to kill." This is what they are trained to do. Therefore, the pride they have in themselves and the pride they see in many people's eyes can make them say things that may not come out right. Personally, I have always been able to tell a new recruit. They normally have to cuss at least every other sentence, they will have the appearance that they are a badass and invincible, and because they are so proud of their accomplishments, they tend to hold their heads up "Really High". The only other advice that I can give is: War and deployments are not just hard on the soldier, it is just as hard if not harder on the close loved ones that are left behind.

[Megabyte]

I was wondering when you'd poke your head back in here and comment

[Teacher]

Yeah, homework got a little overwhelming for about a week and a half.

It is nice to know I was missed though.

[Twelve]

so birds going away thread turns into a flame-off???
only on TAO...

Oh my god, I know. Sometimes I get annoyed at people's freedom to say things here that they wouldn't say in somebody's face or even on the phone. People can argue and be as idealistic for anything---to the point where you're not even talking to people anymore, but to cold, emotionless ideals that nobody can truly live up to and feel. So fake!!

12

[the bird]

Oh my god, I know. Sometimes I get annoyed at people's freedom to say things here that they wouldn't say in somebody's face or even on the phone. People can argue and be as idealistic for anything---to the point where you're not even talking to people anymore, but to cold, emotionless ideals that nobody can truly live up to and feel. So fake!!

12

agreed. i asked some of my friends if they thought rag head was a bad word and about 70% of them used other terms for them anf of those 70% about 50% of them used a really really bad word that not even i would say. but anyway they say it is not a bad word. just be your self and not try to be so idealistic just on the forums to try and get respect. i'm my self and i have alot of people who look up to me just cause of what i have done and what i'm doing.

[shatterstar]

read every post. nothing new to add except a couple of things:

1. northy - this is old news. its easier to make a person kill by making the opponent look like 'boss-you-need-to-kill-for-the-super-potato-ninja-powerup-secret-bonus-level' (to simplify it) than a person fighting for his or her own beliefs just like you are and thus should be accorded the self-same respect you demand for yourself. reprehensible as it may be, its how regular suburban kids learn to kill.

if anything, this saves bird's soul. now he wont even look at the blood on his hands.

2. mega: put up or shut up? NO. i will not put up or shut up.
i'd say more but it'd just be a repeat of that line.

3. bird: so you learnt a shit-load of academics, huh? was proper english not included?

[Megabyte]

as was originally said, cram it where the sun don't shine :)

I don't talk crap on things I don't understand, but I suppose that is too much to hope for many people.

[dirka dirka]

Oh my god, I know. Sometimes I get annoyed at people's freedom to say things here that they wouldn't say in somebody's face or even on the phone. People can argue and be as idealistic for anything---to the point where you're not even talking to people anymore, but to cold, emotionless ideals that nobody can truly live up to and feel. So fake!!

12

If someone was being racist right infront of you and you didn't like it.. you wouldn't say anything? You're a pussy.

as was originally said, cram it where the sun don't shine :)

I don't talk crap on things I don't understand, but I suppose that is too much to hope for many people.

You don't understand our viewpoint on the matter and you're talking crap about it. So.. you're just dead wrong.

[Jeffery]

Dirka, something I think you fail to see here is this:

The US (and any military in the world) trains their soldiers in a specific way. They deliberately teach them and train them to see the enemy as someone less than themselves. Heck, this sense of "We're Better" is also seen between different branches of the military.

But they do so with a reason that for hundreds of years has been found to be valid.


A soldier is trained to kill other people. And for the majority of people out there, this goes against their very nature. So in order to realign the persons moral sense to allow them to do what is needed, a soldier is "reprogrammed" to see the opponents as something less than themselves, and as such, something (not someone) that can be destroyed.

Depersonalization of the enemy is a long held belief that is done so that the soldier, when his duty is done, can reintegrate with the rest of society as easily as possible.

Some branches of the service carry this a bit further than the others. The Marines are a prime example of a branch that often takes this re-education to the extreme, which is why throughout modern history when there has been a sniper in some bell tower or book depository, it has been an ex-jarhead.


So yes, to a civilian with no experience of how the military is trained the views of the newly educated soldier may seem warped. Because it is, deliberately and with due cause.

[dirka dirka]

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. I can only care about things that I know about. If they are being trained like this then they should know, or be trained to know, that it won't be accepted in a civilian atmosphere. Personally, I don't need a smoke screen to kill an enemy. Granted, I'm not trained to kill, I still wouldn't want to be knowingly in denial. Either way, this is outright saying that soldiers are neutered of their morals. So how can civilization consciously permit moral-less humans to flow free? If this is what it has come to, we're no better than who we're fighting.

[Jeffery]

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. I can only care about things that I know about. If they are being trained like this then they should know, or be trained to know, that it won't be accepted in a civilian atmosphere. Personally, I don't need a smoke screen to kill an enemy. Granted, I'm not trained to kill, I still wouldn't want to be knowingly in denial. Either way, this is outright saying that soldiers are neutered of their morals. So how can civilization consciously permit moral-less humans to flow free? If this is what it has come to, we're no better than who we're fighting.
In every war ever waged you had two sides, each thinking they are morally and ethically the correct side. Each thinking that they, and only they, had it rught, and the otherside wrong.

So the question i ask is this:
Who says we ARE "better than those we are fighting"????

Maybe THEY actually are the ones right, and we are wrong. Or maybe not.


Either way, that is how wars are fought, and soldiers are trained. And while you can sit there and claim you could kill people when told to and not have any problems does not change the fact that many people say that, and none truly can.

Someone who could run out and kill people just because they are told to, and first do not need to be trained to, are called psychotics. And they are the same ones who are over there raping and killing kids.

And yes, even occasionally tossing rocks at dying dogs.

[dirka dirka]

So psychotics are people who would rather cope with things they did instead of deny what they did was immoral? So that means normal people.. soldiers.. are bipolar?

I'll tell you who is on the right side. The ones who have and keep high morals and respectable values. That can be both sides and that can be neither side. I don't think war requires a right side and a wrong side. What dictates if we are on the right side is if we keep the values and morals we stand for and if originally those morals are humane. Death is a requirement of war. Racism isn't. You can tell me all you would like that this racism is required and accepted, I don't accept it and I don't see it as required.

[Jeffery]

So psychotics are people who would rather cope with things they did instead of deny what they did was immoral? So that means normal people.. soldiers.. are bipolar?

I'll tell you who is on the right side. The ones who have and keep high morals and respectable values. That can be both sides and that can be neither side. I don't think war requires a right side and a wrong side. What dictates if we are on the right side is if we keep the values and morals we stand for and if originally those morals are humane. Death is a requirement of war. Racism isn't. You can tell me all you would like that this racism is required and accepted, I don't accept it and I don't see it as required.
No, psychotics are those able and willing to go out and kill people for no particular reason.

The problem here is you THINK you'd be able to go shoot because just because you were told to. Which sounds to me more like childish bravada than rationalized thinking.

"Sure, i could go kill those commies!", says Billy the 9 year old neighborhood bully.


But, unless you get off your mouth and onto your feet and go join the military and find out, then that is all you will be able to do, is think you have that ability.

[dirka dirka]

No, psychotics are those able and willing to go out and kill people for no particular reason.

The problem here is you THINK you'd be able to go shoot because just because you were told to. Which sounds to me more like childish bravada than rationalized thinking.

"Sure, i could go kill those commies!", says Billy the 9 year old neighborhood bully.

But, unless you get off your mouth and onto your feet and go join the military and find out, then that is all you will be able to do, is think you have that ability.

I don't know exactly what I'm doing with my life. The military is one option, but the only thing that scares me there is that it takes up a lot of time which I would rather spend learning about things I like - which is what I planned on doing after High School.

It isn't just because I was told to do so though. It's more of just because I have to in order to survive and the drive that war is war is there. I'm not saying I could go out and kill people that I just don't like. I'm just saying that I'd rather know why I killed and I would rather be completely conscious of it if I ever did.

[Jeffery]

The problem is that you still THINK you'd be able to join the military and go kill people just because they needed killing.

You THINk you do, and have claimed you would be able to. But unless you actually know for a 100% fact that you could (and the only way to do that is to actually do it) then you should not go around making statements about how you could do so.

You THINK you have what it would take to be a person who could kill when needed. Let me know when you know whether or not you ARE that person, not when you think you might be.


You belittle Mega and Bird because of their training, claiming to not need that training to do the same job. The problem is that if you are the type of person who wouldn;t need it, then you are also the same person who should not have it.

A "normal" person raised with current Ameican values and morals is not someone who thinks going out and killing people is ok. Military training simply rewrites that so that it is OK under some circumstances. And yes, psyching up the soldiers is one way of doing it.

[dirka dirka]

The problem is that you still THINK you'd be able to join the military and go kill people just because they needed killing.

You THINk you do, and have claimed you would be able to. But unless you actually know for a 100% fact that you could (and the only way to do that is to actually do it) then you should not go around making statements about how you could do so.

You THINK you have what it would take to be a person who could kill when needed. Let me know when you know whether or not you ARE that person, not when you think you might be.
I don't see what is so hard about pulling a trigger. There is a saying.. "Today we work, tomorrow we cry."

You belittle Mega and Bird because of their training, claiming to not need that training to do the same job. The problem is that if you are the type of person who wouldn;t need it, then you are also the same person who should not have it.

A "normal" person raised with current Ameican values and morals is not someone who thinks going out and killing people is ok. Military training simply rewrites that so that it is OK under some circumstances. And yes, psyching up the soldiers is one way of doing it.
Maybe we see things differently, but the current Ameican values very well allow killing under some circumstances. Military training simply rewrites it so they never have to cope with their actions.

I belittle Mega and Bird for expressing racist training in a civilian forum. If they want to hold those views and not cope with reality that is fine, I don't need to know. More over, I don't need to see the racism. If the military is going to ruin people they need to program some lines in there so they don't express this stupidity in public.

[Jeffery]

I don't see what is so hard about pulling a trigger. There is a saying.. "Today we work, tomorrow we cry."


Maybe we see things differently, but the current Ameican values very well allow killing under some circumstances. Military training simply rewrites it so they never have to cope with their actions.

I belittle Mega and Bird for expressing racist training in a civilian forum. If they want to hold those views and not cope with reality that is fine, I don't need to know. More over, I don't need to see the racism. If the military is going to ruin people they need to program some lines in there so they don't express this stupidity in public.
No, you don;t see what is so hard about THINKING you might be able to pull that trigger and not care.
But, until you actually are able to, you will simply be sitting there bragging about nothing, because nothing is all you are able to do without caring.

But, unless you decide to actually DO it, then you have nothing but words.


And, not to be mean or anything, but if you don;t like what you see, then use the anilities given to you as a forum member to simply not see them. You choose what to read and what not to read. No one forced you to read their posts, nor even to respond to them.

[dirka dirka]

No, you don;t see what is so hard about THINKING you might be able to pull that trigger and not care.
But, until you actually are able to, you will simply be sitting there bragging about nothing, because nothing is all you are able to do without caring.
You're in the wrong mindset. I'm not bragging. Many things kill people. You've killed people. Pulling a trigger isn't that much different. It isn't that I think I could pull the trigger. I know I can do that. That's the easy part. It is the coping with it that is the hard part. It would appear that the military eliminated the hard part - isn't that what we are talking about?

And, not to be mean or anything, but if you don;t like what you see, then use the anilities given to you as a forum member to simply not see them. You choose what to read and what not to read. No one forced you to read their posts, nor even to respond to them.
That argument goes every which way. Nobody forced them to post it, nobody forced you to reply to me, nobody forced me to post, nobody forced me to read.

[Jeffery]

You're in the wrong mindset. I'm not bragging. Many things kill people. You've killed people. Pulling a trigger isn't that much different. It isn't that I think I could pull the trigger. I know I can do that. That's the easy part. It is the coping with it that is the hard part. It would appear that the military eliminated the hard part - isn't that what we are talking about?

But the problem here is that you are the one thinking it would be so easy for you to kill. Why? Because you've never done it, so of course it must not be that big of a deal!

But, until you actually follow through and prove it is not that big of a deal, then you are nothing but another teenage braggart who has no idea what he or she is actually capable of.

Sorry kiddo, I have met a million people who have claimed they'd have the guts to do something. But it is the ones who have PROVEN they can that actually have words that matter.


That argument goes every which way. Nobody forced them to post it, nobody forced you to reply to me, nobody forced me to post, nobody forced me to read.

Yes, but YOU are the one making a big deal of it, not them. If you didn;t make a big deal, there'd be no argument, and there'd be no discussion of it. So the burden is upon you for it.

[dirka dirka]

But the problem here is that you are the one thinking it would be so easy for you to kill. Why? Because you've never done it, so of course it must not be that big of a deal!

But, until you actually follow through and prove it is not that big of a deal, then you are nothing but another teenage braggart who has no idea what he or she is actually capable of.

Sorry kiddo, I have met a million people who have claimed they'd have the guts to do something. But it is the ones who have PROVEN they can that actually have words that matter.
This isn't guts, Jeffery. This action is as easy as typing. I can name some things I don't have the guts to do. As I said before, I'm not bragging. This isn't capability. Pulling a trigger is easy. No more or less than shooting a BB gun at a bucket.

Yes, but YOU are the one making a big deal of it, not them. If you didn;t make a big deal, there'd be no argument, and there'd be no discussion of it. So the burden is upon you for it.
I'm the one making a big deal? If they would have accepted the term isn't proper to use than there wouldn't be a big deal. They are making the big deal. I simply pointed out the racism. The burden is on them. We could go back and forth throughout the entire argument with the same back and forth recoil.

[Jeffery]

The problem that you refuse to see is that YOU DON'T KNOW if you would be able to do it. You think you could. You are posative you could. But like millions of other kids with no clue about real life, there is no way to tell without actually having to do it.

When you have pointed a gun at someones head and pulled the trigger, then come back here and say how easy it is. Because until you have, nothing you say can be taken seriouskly on this topic.

[dirka dirka]

No, I have ever right to say this: How easy is it to type? The same answer applies. It is coping with the actions that is different.

[Jeffery]

No, I have ever right to say this: How