CAU Unit Committee: Healing Concept [Archive] - Tactics Arena Community Forums

scb

03-18-2007, 09:51 PM

The central thread (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31259)

Use this thread to discuss the best healer units. Units currently in the game do qualify, but this thread should have more than one winner, so CAU units will have their place as well.

Some healer units I've pulled up to get the discussion started:

Cleric (http://www.tacticsarena.com/units/unit.php?name=Cleric)
Martyr (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30275)
Fairy Goddess (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29356)
Fairy (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29286)
Sorcerer King (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23272)
Healing Ward (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10280)
Voodoo Priest (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13181)

Red Mage

03-18-2007, 10:09 PM

Nice job.

scb

03-18-2007, 10:38 PM

You call that a discussion? Which one's best? Why?

Out of those I found, I like the Fairy. The graphics are excellent, the ability has much the same tactics as the cleric without being the same thing at all, and the close range balances the durability. I would change some things about it, but that's not what this thread is for. It's still better than the others, except maybe the cleric itself.

The fairy goddess I somehow remembered as better than it is.

HierophantNexus

03-18-2007, 11:06 PM

Sorry but,,,

I don't like any of them. Exept the Cleric which is already in game.

The Martyr fails to be defferent enough from the cleric.
The Fairy has the Stone Golem problem of needing to hold focus after the units have spread.
The Fairy Goddess does this swap health thing. I use swap health for my vampire but fairies doing it is odd.
I like the idea of a focused healling that does a lot more healling than a general healing.

I think the range on your Sorcerer King is to small and or has to much wait time. I think the duel effect of dealing damage or healing evens it out a little. I don't think humans should be summonable. That is just odd. Ghosts angels fairies and stuff those are the things you summon.

How about a unit with limited range that heals for a large amount of HP say 25 give it a a range of 3 and a wait of 3

There was a nice leaching worms from hell thing. They transfered HP from the enemy to the allies. I got to look for myself later. Healing should be easy to search for.

HierophantNexus

03-18-2007, 11:13 PM

Since the fairy floats it could be considered immune to Ground attacks.

HierophantNexus

03-18-2007, 11:27 PM

Should leaching be a seperate concept?

BloodReign introduced this Chaos Worm thing that makes for a nice new game dynamic.

scb

03-19-2007, 12:21 AM

Yes, leeching health can be a separate concept. None of those five units leech, though. The sorcerer king has three attacks, one of which is a simple single-target heal.

The fairy goddess has a 12-damage attack and a passive healing ability - all units within 3 tiles are continuously healed a small amount.

I think that the fairy, unlike the stone golem, could chase after the units and repeatedly focus to keep healing them. It's pretty fast and tough.

HierophantNexus

03-19-2007, 12:30 AM

Shadowkill

03-19-2007, 04:23 PM

Ok so i rate this unit this way:
1. Cleric: Good old classic, simple and always useful. 10/10
2. Fairy: Nice concept bloodreign, very useful for new kind of turtle - you will activate this at the start instead of SG. And then you have maybe greater advantages than 30 armor. And i like the image :) 9/10
3. Fairy goddess: Very much like a one unit heal with lesser recovery and a strange healing aura. Since its not a focus, i consider it to be more overpowered than a fairy. 7/10
4. Martyr: Too much similar to a cleric to me, with a lot of strange specials that maker it more complicated. TAO needs simple units! 5/10
5. Sorcerer king: I rate this unit only for its healing capabilities. And 20 HP heal at one unit with the same wait as cleric is underpowered to me. I dont think its bad, but i dont really like it :( 5/10

scb

03-19-2007, 04:28 PM

Very well, is the fairy good enough to merit mention as one of the best implementations of a healer unit, or is the cleric in a class by itself as the one great healer unit?

Unless someone comes along and mentions a healer that I didn't list above, I think that's the only question that remains for this concept.

HierophantNexus

03-20-2007, 01:44 AM

I say the fairy is underpowered if it needs focus to come close to matching what a cleric can do without. Perhaps 4 instead of 3 and I'd consider using it.

But yes so far the Fairy seams like the best new healer.

I still think a single unit healer with a larger restoration ability and maybe also the ability to remove harmful status indicators would be a pleasant addition to the healer family.

Maybe call him a Medicine Man.

scb

03-20-2007, 05:02 PM

Found another interesting healer unit: Light Magic Witch (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3532)
Does it hold a candle to the fairy?

HierophantNexus

03-21-2007, 01:55 AM

It holds a candle to the fairy. I say the striaght line heal is nice as long as you don't have to heal enemy units to get to your own.

It's very well balanced. I'd prefer to see it remove some status indicators as well.

There is a lot of tactical stuff for both sides with this unit. Say you want to destroy an ememy unit. You attack on the Light Magic Witch side of one of his units with one of your near dead units. His unit is near death. The cleric is out of the picture and your unit is in the way. Does he heal your unit as well as his or let his unit die and then wipe your unit out later.

Shadowkill

03-21-2007, 09:16 AM

Hmm. Its somewhat difficult to line up your units to get a full heal capability, but so with DMW. I dont like the ability of cannot being hit by DMWs. That makes it force a draw against DMW in an endgame. I guess there cannot be a unit meant against other unit. Ok, mudquake cannot hit wisps, but MGs primary attack can. This unit force a draw against fully-hypotetical 10 witches user. 1 unit vs 10 a draw? If he could delete that thing, i would consider it to be balanced. And is the heal armor-reducable?

scb

03-21-2007, 04:11 PM

It isn't armor-reducible as far as I can see, although that was suggested on the thread. I think it does heal too much, since it basically negates one enemy attack and doesn't put itself into much danger (the witch has to get within a knight's retaliation range to hit it).

warkiller

03-21-2007, 05:28 PM

How about a unit with limited range that heals for a large amount of HP say 25 give it a a range of 3 and a wait of 3

Well i was thinking of making a unit, That would be named Restoration tree.
It would be something like this:

I am too lazy to make a story so here is the unit...

Hp:24
Power: none, it heals only
Armor: None
blocking: none
Waiting: 4 with attack and move or 2 attack only.
Attack: this Unit heals a single unit in a range of 4 tiles for 10 hp. Any unit that is within 1 tile of this unit would get an extra 3 healing done to it.

Or another unit would be the same thing as the Cleric, only that it heals a single target for 24 (twice the cleric's attack power) but has a waiting turn of 6 (attack and movement) or 4 (attack only). Both units would be awsome to heal other units from behind the "wall" that protects the units.

Any one got comments on how to balance them or so?

JesusCraig

03-21-2007, 06:53 PM

Shaman (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18909&highlight=shaman) by Chaosti.

It was my favorite healer yet.

scb

03-21-2007, 09:48 PM

That looks very similar to the fairy, but weaker. So in this case I think the question is, is the fairy overpowered or the shaman underpowered?

I favor the view that the shaman is underpowered, since healing a single unit as fast as a cleric will heal it (with focus, which is hard to keep) is not all that effective.

Do you like the shaman better than the cleric?

Shadowkill

03-22-2007, 03:02 PM

Shaman can heal through barrier, thats the difference. Imagine you can target the pyro with LW or FG. When enemy barriers it, LW becomes useful, but with FG you can still stop him. The barrier-piercing ability makes it useful, but golds rarely use BWs... In this way its more effective than cleric, but fairy is better...

JesusCraig

03-22-2007, 09:09 PM

The shaman and fairy are two completely different concepts, their tactics are entirely different and their roles are different.

While the fairy heals all units in its area, the shaman heals only one, but that heal is maintained over any distance. Also a Shaman heals 6 per round, 3 per player turn,while the fairy heals only 3 per round, making the durability of any single unit considerably higher than the fairy adds, and since the cleric is a multi unit healer, the shaman fills a better role as a single healer.

In tactics the shaman would be placed beside the stone golem, likely in a turtle, as its key purpose is to increase the longevity of a few units. Fairy on the other hand has to be away from the back line to be effective, also it requires the units to stay clustered around a single area. The shaman however has the exact opposite effect, increasing the ability that a unit can move away from the form, as it is more capable of living on it's own. A shaman is used in a turtle with a stone golem, a fairy would not have a use. I say this because golds almost all play with 2 scouts, as well as other ranged units, if something doesn't have backline protection it is pretty much vulnerable to too many line of sight attacks.

Shadowkill

03-23-2007, 04:16 AM

Placing shaman behind a SG will make SG vulnerable to scouts, and then turtle lose. So i guess its better to keep this in the back row with SG and dont stone it.

HierophantNexus

03-24-2007, 08:38 AM

Well i was thinking of making a unit, That would be named Restoration tree.
It would be something like this:

I am too lazy to make a story so here is the unit...

Hp:24
Power: none, it heals only
Armor: None
blocking: none
Waiting: 4 with attack and move or 2 attack only.
Attack: this Unit heals a single unit in a range of 4 tiles for 10 hp. Any unit that is within 1 tile of this unit would get an extra 3 healing done to it.

Or another unit would be the same thing as the Cleric, only that it heals a single target for 24 (twice the cleric's attack power) but has a waiting turn of 6 (attack and movement) or 4 (attack only). Both units would be awsome to heal other units from behind the "wall" that protects the units.

Any one got comments on how to balance them or so?

Walking Tree :D

Both units are a little underdefined. The tree is missing movement rate. The other unit is missing nearly everything.

As for me I wouldn't sacrifice a unit space for a healer that only healed for 10 or 13 every 4 turns. If the tree healed for 24 I'd consider it although with it's limited range the 24 HP would make me think twice.

HierophantNexus

03-24-2007, 08:38 AM

The Witch Doctor has sparkly cure all powder he keeps in little sacks. To heal he throws a sack which busts on it's target. The sound of a cure all package bursting is the same sound used right now for a mage blocking an an arrow.

Cure all powder has antidote( poison ), thaw, ( frozen ) snap out of it, ( enchanted ) detoad, ( toad curse ) as well a host of other remedies.

Name: Witch Doctor
HP: 35
Power: 24 plus Cure All
Range: 2 ( LOS )
Armor: 0
Block: 0
Movement: 3
Wait: 3
Attack Pattern: Single tile in range in line of sight. She can target self.

I think the stats are about right. In front where the witch doctor could do the most damage by helping some units break through enemy strong holds she would be very vulnerable. In back she'd wreak havoc on cleric jumpers causing them to use up ranged attacks without killing the cleric and or sacrificing a lot to wipe out the cleric but in back the Witch Doctor can not support infiltrating units.

steve12

03-24-2007, 08:42 AM

...Guys, I don't think the game needs another healer. These games are battles, and should be made as quick as possibe. I actually think the Cleric wasa great concept, and shouldn't be ruined or accompanied by another healer. Just my opinion, though..

scb

03-24-2007, 01:00 PM

I don't think this is really the place to give unit descriptions...

I agree with you that the cleric is the best, Steve, but for the sake of actually mentioning a CAU unit I would like to choose a second place unit. Even if the concept is bad, it has been used and deserves mention.

If you think that's really a good unit, Heirophant, how about putting it in its own thread for some dedicated critique?

Chaosti

03-24-2007, 11:37 PM

Shaman (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18909&highlight=shaman) by Chaosti.

It was my favorite healer yet.

:bigsmile:

To be fair, my unit was created long before the Fairy was. In any case, I was pretty amazed by how similar and yet different the two units are. The best comparison (actually it might even be the perfect comparison given the attack patterns) is the enchantress/frost golem. The most of the pros and cons between those units could be used to compare the Fairy and Shaman.

In my personal opinion, the Fairy is a little overpowered (if I'm reading the description right, it's power works like mine: a focus spell that is cast with the attack pattern but then the regenerating units can move away without losing the regen). Regenerative powers are pretty tricky to balance because in the long run they are pretty powerful. A regenerating unit can attack and move without having to spend a turn waiting for a cleric heal. It also puts more pressure on your opponent to finish off that unit otherwise a retreat to safety will gradually lead to that unit's full recovery. One unit with that kind of survivabilty (think regen + stone armor + cleric heals) is hard enough to deal with but not impossible (paralysis or berzerker stunning maybe). More than one unit with that much damage reduction is way too much to handle. Think, how would you deal with against a trio of stoned knights that gain +3hp every round?

scb

03-25-2007, 02:10 AM

I'd ignore them and go for your back rank. Knights aren't all that fast, and I would probably be able to break all your focuses.

The fairy doesn't heal any faster than the cleric does, and it is at a severe disadvantage if it loses focus and can't get to the units (although this will be no problem for protecting scouts).

The most effective way to deal with the shaman would be to block off the regenerating unit and ignore it - it isn't going to die. You may have to pin down your frost golem on it while you deal with other units. Both the fairy and shaman are a bit much like the stone golem, though - I rather like the fairy goddess basic idea, with its passive healing that has to be in range continually. But it isn't very well thought out.

I think the shaman is better than the fairy on the grounds that it doesn't fill the same niche as the cleric, while the fairy does.

Walrus

03-26-2007, 03:26 PM

if we are analysing healing stuff, id like to throw my own Healing Ward (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=160022#post160022) and Voodoo Priest (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?p=247638#post247638) into the mix. The latter isnt JUST a healer, but still comes under this catorgory in my opinion.

warkiller

03-26-2007, 04:26 PM

Walking Tree :D

Both units are a little underdefined. The tree is missing movement rate. The other unit is missing nearly everything.

As for me I wouldn't sacrifice a unit space for a healer that only healed for 10 or 13 every 4 turns. If the tree healed for 24 I'd consider it although with it's limited range the 24 HP would make me think twice.

You see you are missing the point that it only attacks with a wating turn of 2 turns, faster than the cleric, which in time will overheal the cleric.
and for the walking thing, it's 2 spaces, and the other units is basically like the tree only with a few new changes =/
Any more questions...?
And i do not take credit for making the unit =/
a walking tree is from WoW =/
http://www.wowwiki.com/images/thumb/3/31/Treant.png/180px-Treant.png
Is a pic of what it would look like :D, and by the way...
This is for people who want to see what the tree of life (aka Restoration tree) would come from, the effect of the wow and this is pretty much the same...

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/druid/talents.html

scb

03-26-2007, 11:06 PM

if we are analyzing healing stuff, id like to throw my own Healing Ward (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=160022#post160022) and Voodoo Priest (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?p=247638#post247638) into the mix. The latter isn't JUST a healer, but still comes under this category in my opinion.

Fantastic. I consider the Healing Ward the best implementation in this thread, except possibly the cleric. The Voodoo Priest is probably too unstable - focus is easy enough to break as it is, and its effect is powerful enough to balance the difficulty (i.e. overpowered if it actually works).

The healing ward is everything I was wishing the fairy were, except that it's a ward and heals a bit more, which isn't necessarily bad.

Walrus

03-27-2007, 06:36 AM

agreed about the voodoo priest. i made him a while back, but now when i look back it seems to be as you say, too unstable.

with that said, i like the whole "buffing" or "debuffing" element which units have the potential to complain. i am going to think about what i can do with the voodoo priest, but the effect as a whole (gradual incremental healing which is broken when the unit is attacked, but also defends against the attack which breaks it) is one i am quite fond of.

bloodreign

03-27-2007, 07:33 PM

you make me sad walrus, i thought i had the fairy incremental healing concept on lock. turns out you had it made 2 years in advance.....

does anyone know where i can get my hands on a time machine?
:fire:

or better yet a POLAR BEAR!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O31nYlR2hI

warkiller

03-29-2007, 05:15 PM