CAU Committee: Summoner Concept

[scb]

The central thread (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31259)

Use this thread to discuss the best summoner units. Let's restrict this to units that summon mobile units, so the furgon wouldn't be included.

Summoner units I've found so far:

Sword Guardian (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31086)
Dark Cleric (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23272)
Ant Charmer (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28150)
Enchanted Graveyard (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29282)
Demon Summoner (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3669)
Gravestone Ward (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26444)
Blast Magician (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23522)
Summoner (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15602)
Imperial Queen Bee & Workers (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19926)
Frucor and Child (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17128)
Master and Puppet (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15096)
Witch Doctor (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21060)
Engineer (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20845)
Conjurer (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12583)

[HierophantNexus]

I like Sword Gardian and Gravestone Ward

I guess the Gravestone Ward would need imperfect blocking to make it a balanced unit. Maybe the Gravestone Ward should be replaced by a human character to make the unit function within the rules. I say let the Gravestone Ward have no small limit on summons. Maybe 10 as to not clog up the field would be nice.

I Like the Sword Guardian as well. It's a nice new element without being over powered.

I fail to understand many of the others.

[scb]

Actually, the gravestone ward loses its ghost every time its wait time ends, so it never gets more than one.

Sword Guardian
Gravestone Ward
Blast Magician

I like my Blast Magician enough to describe it to you. With focus, it summons a unit adjacent to itself. That unit can then move five tiles on a later turn and attack another unit for forty damage, destroying itself in the process. So the blast magician basically has a 40-damage attack that takes two turns to get off (or more if you want fantastic range). The opponent can attack the blast to weaken it before it hits its target, or attack the blast magician to destroy the blast in one shot.

[HierophantNexus]

Re Blast Magician

I kinda get the idea of the blast magician

Although the Blast Magician is no more a true summoner than a scout. Just that the blast Magician requires unbroken focus to get his projectile to the target.

Although the Blast Magician is a great unit in and of itself. I just think it kinda fails to suit the catagory.

Hmm

You've given me an idea for my Evil Caster.

[Duke_Quakem]

I have a unit, The Planeswalker (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?p=951279#post951279),

I think it should be on the list too cus he has a summonig abillity, with a twist, but summons units after all :p

[HierophantNexus]

PlanesWalker

The PlanesWalker is unique I'll give you that.

It isn't a true summoner though.

[scb]

I agree that it isn't quite a summoner, but we have to make sure that every unit gets a concept. I think it's a form of shapeshifter. I'll create a thread for shapeshifters and mention it there.

As for the blast magician, I still think it's a summoner in that it creates an expendable unit that can move and attack. The blast magician can stay focused for any amount of time and just let the projectile sit - it doesn't have to send it in immediately.

Edit: More entries:
Frucor and Child (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17128)
Master and Puppet (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15096)

Two very old units, one rated platinum and one that I have seen mention of many times.

[HierophantNexus]

oh ok.

Than the blast magician is a great summoner.

If master and puppet can be modified to be predictable it would be a good unit also. Unless of course Master and Puppet already is predictable and I missed something.

Also after thinking about it maybe if a Grave Stone Ward Had a long enough wait time between summoning units it could remain a Ward and gain the usual Ward characteristics of perfect blocking all around. I like the idea of an enchanted Tomb Stone on the playing field. I still don't like the 1 summon limit on it though.

[scb]

You think it should be able to summon a horde of ghosts? I thought of my gravestone ward as being like a lightning ward. It can get a 50-damage blockable attack off against anything in lightning ward range, 100-damage if the opponent stands on just the right spot. I think that's plenty, but I'm thinking it probably isn't overpowered because it takes two turns to do and can't do it much more often than a lightning ward.

The puppet is predictable, I think you missed the explanation of how it behaves.

[warkiller]

Actually, the gravestone ward loses its ghost every time its wait time ends, so it never gets more than one.

Sword Guardian
Gravestone Ward
Blast Magician

I like my Blast Magician enough to describe it to you. With focus, it summons a unit adjacent to itself. That unit can then move five tiles on a later turn and attack another unit for forty damage, destroying itself in the process. So the blast magician basically has a 40-damage attack that takes two turns to get off (or more if you want fantastic range). The opponent can attack the blast to weaken it before it hits its target, or attack the blast magician to destroy the blast in one shot.

Great unit, would come really in handy when playing many types of games, i can imagine me using this unit in a turt stoned and with great possabilities of surviving. I like that unit, I have never seen it, must of missed it =/
Great unit and i give it a 9 out of ten

[warkiller]

Actually, the gravestone ward loses its ghost every time its wait time ends, so it never gets more than one.

Sword Guardian
Gravestone Ward
Blast Magician

I like my Blast Magician enough to describe it to you. With focus, it summons a unit adjacent to itself. That unit can then move five tiles on a later turn and attack another unit for forty damage, destroying itself in the process. So the blast magician basically has a 40-damage attack that takes two turns to get off (or more if you want fantastic range). The opponent can attack the blast to weaken it before it hits its target, or attack the blast magician to destroy the blast in one shot.

Great unit, would come really in handy when playing many types of games, i can imagine me using this unit in a turt stoned and with great possabilities of surviving. I like that unit, I have never seen it, must of missed it =/
Great unit and i give it a 9 out of ten

Edit: sorry for the duoble post, Internet is acting wierd =/

[scb]

Great unit, would come really in handy when playing many types of games, i can imagine me using this unit in a turt stoned and with great possabilities of surviving. I like that unit, I have never seen it, must of missed it =/
Great unit and i give it a 9 out of ten

Which one are you talking about? I posted the Blast Magician before you joined, but you might also be talking about the gravestone ward.

[Shadowkill]

I think theres currently too many units in this tread... You cannot discuss 10 units in one tread, thats crazy. From the units that i have seen, blast magician is ok, master and puppet too, imperial queen bee is complicated, and i cant remember any others :) ( Seen it yesterday )

[HierophantNexus]

I'm sorry

When I was referring to the GraveStone Ward I meant to be referring to the Enchanted Graveyard (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29282&highlight=Skeleton)

Although the TomstoneWard is nice also.

So I'd like to add Enchanted Graveyard to the list. The ward needs tweaking but it's a great starting concept.

My updated list of favorites is.

Sword Guardian
Gravestone Ward
Enchanted Graveyard
Blast Magician

All very nice summoner concepts.

[scb]

It's Gravestone Ward, not Tombstone Ward, and you have Enchanted Graveyard on there twice. :p You also forgot the colon in http://, with the result that your link goes to http.com.

The enchanted graveyard is a great implementation of the summoner concept. But why did you drop the sword guardian from your list? Not that you have to think it's one of the best, but you thought it was a few posts ago.

[HierophantNexus]

It's Gravestone Ward, not Tombstone Ward, and you have Enchanted Graveyard on there twice. :p You also forgot the colon in http://, with the result that your link goes to http.com.

The enchanted graveyard is a great implementation of the summoner concept. But why did you drop the sword guardian from your list? Not that you have to think it's one of the best, but you thought it was a few posts ago.

It was supposed to be there with Enchanted Graveyard. I just fixed it.

Thank You

[Walrus]

ive made a few of these myself, such as Witch Doctor (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?p=573301#post573301),Engineer (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?p=558732#post558732) and Conjurer (http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12583).

the witch doctor doesnt summon mobile units, which technically rules him out of this catorgory, but ive posted it anyway because it started up quite an interesting debate which can be worth reading.

on the whole, summoners need to be very well balanced to prevent them becoming overpowered. some of the better ways of doing this are
- making the summoned units temporary
- making the summoned units take a long time to summon
- very high recovery

etc, being able to summon units is a very powerful concept.

[scb]

The Witch Doctor belongs in the same category as the furgon, as a field-changer, and in an "attack without using up a turn" category (need a shorter name for that). Although I like the concept of setting up automated defense points, it's overpowered unless the opponent can smash past them more easily.

The Engineer is wimpy, requiring three real attacks spaced far apart to create what amounts to a pyromancer attack that doesn't get your pyromancer killed. It wouldn't have much effect on the game. I think my Blast Magician is a better example of the same thing.

Conjurer is much like a walking Enchanted Graveyard, but with the ability to create extra no-loyalty units. The wimpy units is creates aren't much use unless you go over the limit and get the extras to charge the opponent. I don't think it's overpowered, but I like the Enchanted Graveyard better.

I've always liked the summoner balancing technique of making the summon a focus attack. Making the summons temporary works too, but in that case the summoner's wait matters very much, as opposed to focus units for which wait time doesn't have a huge impact except in a tight spot.

[Walrus]

"focus summoning" as i call it, is a concept im not fond of, simply personal opinion here, i always feel that a summoner should have the potential to give your side a numerical advantage over the opposition, since initially you will effectively have a numerical disadvantage (assuming the summoner himself cannot directly attack) due to playing the summoner in question.
broadly speaking, i also find summoners are only feasible for a long game where each unit really counts, and thus the ability to generate more units becomes massive.

whether the witch doctor is overpowered isnt something im going to bother arguing here (wrong thread, and ive already argued it in huge depth).

the engineer and conjurer are both designed to create cheap, expendable units. each has their limitations (the conjurer has a fairly strict cap on how many it can summon without it causing problems for you, the engineer takes a long time to summon each unit) but i think both have their uses. the conjurer is more geared towards short games where he can quickly pop out three weak, expendable units which you can use to harass and whittle down the opponent at no real cost to yourself. the summons can also be used as simple meatshields or a wall or your own weaker units, or for the conjurer himself.
the engineer is designed for a slightly longer game. i changed the power on the bombs from 20 to 15 when i revisited the unit earlier, im thinking of boosting it back up to 18 or so though - they are meant to be kamikaze units which you can send in to stirr up the opponent. the key to using the engineer effectively would be to balance exactly when you finish creating a bomb, with how many bombs you create. potentially you could have 3-4 unfinished bombs lying around, each just needing 1 "attack" to make them operational. this would be a serious deterrant for any opponent who tries to attack in that sector of the field.

[HierophantNexus]

The Witch Doctor creates immoble totems. Rather a hard unit to classify.

However I like the other two units Walrus created

For summoning I have 6 favorites. Some may need tweeking but they have a great start.

Sword Guardian
Gravestone Ward
Enchanted Graveyard
Blast Magician
Engineer
Conjurer

Walrus has been here a very long time.

Thanks for showing up Walrus I'm glad you found your way back when you did.

[scb]

I still think the Engineer is underpowered. It takes a total of 12 turns to create a bomb, 3 of which are action turns - and one bomb only grants one pyromancer-like attack. Once the opponent takes the offensive, the engineer will be far too slow to accomplish anything.

Since a summon is expendable, it can't be very hard to get rid of. This is always a downside of summoners, since expendable units can't mount a very fast assault. I've always thought of summoning as a simple way to implement resurrection - the opponent can't really kill it because you can just make a new one any time.

Six favorites? We'll need to narrow that down some.

[Walrus]

the engineer (and witch doctor) are both what i call mid-game units - they are at their most powerful in stalemate situations where both teams are hesitant to attack one another and initiate the battle. it is in these circumstances that a summon can really thrive.

im still working on the engineer, but i dont feel it is as underpowered as you say. i think i will change it so that it only requires 2 actions to build (1 for a blueprint, 1 to build the bomb on the blueprint) but increase his recovery time by 1 as well.

[HierophantNexus]

scb

I am sticking with 6 good original summoning concepts

Walrus

scb is right. A Pyros attack with more turns to pull it off is what your Engineer scheme amounts to as you have it now.

With the the clock work bombs lossing 5 life every turn by the time another is made the first one is dead. With constant healing by one cleric they still deteriate faster than they can be regenerated.

The bombs only become useful when there is more than one on the field.

Drop the deteriation scheme and drop the wait time from 6 to 3. being one attack only units it's not as if there should be a problem.

If I had a Engineer in my formation I'd pick off the ranged attackers on the other team then I'd create Clock Work Bombs. I'd let them form a wall against enemy intruders in order to protect my Engineer

If the engineer unit is tweeked it could bring about new play mechanics to the game without being overpowered or under powered.

There is of course other fixes including bringing the power up to 30 or above in order to give all the preperation time as you have it now some benifit.

[scb]

Based on the mix of opinions on this thread, I think the Enchanted Graveyard represents the best implementation of summoning.

[HierophantNexus]

I'm with you there.

Although I'm still keeping 6 favorites. :)