Do you have faith? How?

[xerent]

Allthough this is a gaming site, pseudo-philisophy seems to be a pretty hot topic. I'm interested in the demographic that this site pulls, so if you would be honest in answering the poll, it would satisfy my curiosity.

Are you religious? If so, how?

This post will also keep track of Indigenous religions, such as Native American, or African traditional religions.

I expect this number to be low.

Indigenous: 1

Others: 0

[Dresicos]

No, Atheist. I was Christian and I had some faith in god until I got some new friends last year.

[gigolojlo gl]

No, Atheist. I was Christian and I had some faith in god until I got some new friends last year.

Emo friends.

[Dresicos]

Stfu you ass but yeah, you're right.

[Enjoi]

Lol, I am a born again Christian.

[xerent]

No, Atheist. I was Christian and I had some faith in god until I got some new friends last year.

Athiesm is a belief.

I should re-title the thread.

[Zander]

I'm agnostic.

[Jaymee_]

I'm pretty sure you know my answer already, so I'll leave it at that.

And you lie. : )

[Hatchet Warrior]

I'm into the native american thing. As most of you know, i'm native american and white. I choose to follow my native side of my family.

[xerent]

I'm into the native american thing. As most of you know, i'm native american and white. I choose to follow my native side of my family.

I'm trying to add African, and Tribal options to the list, but I can't figure out how to make it go above 10 options. I swore I did it before.

[meat.eater]

Please know the difference between athiest and agnostic if you're going to claim one of the two.

/2cents

[xerent]

Please know the difference between athiest and agnostic if you're going to claim one of the two.

/2cents

That's why I posted a quick clarification of each. ^^;

[meat.eater]

I have faith in the people of this community to inherently screw it up anyhow.

[Zander]

Please know the difference between athiest and agnostic if you're going to claim one of the two.

/2cents
This would be a perfectly fine post if you hadn't added the implication that I didn't know what I was saying. Get over your bias.

[meat.eater]

This would be a perfectly fine post if you didnt assume every time I speak in the same thread as you I am speaking directly to you. Get over your bias. :)

[Jaymee_]

Isn't there already a thread like this.. asking what religion we are? I'm too lazy to find it, but I remember it.

[Hatchet Warrior]

Probably, but Xer made it, so it stays.

[*Sanosuke*]

Suck up :P

im Christian, i've always believed and god and always will.

[AlabamaBoy]

You don't have to be affiliated to believe in God.

[xerent]

Lol, I am a born again Christian.

That's a term that people use quite liberally.

[Mithrandir]

That's a term that people use quite liberally.
Yeah, you really ought to add a certain clarity to the poll. Differentiate between the "Christian" that practically everyone is, and someone that is a serious Christian.

[Ninai]

Too low number of possible poll options. Its good,that he tries to find out how to make more then ten. (There should be at least five other options)

[TheSilverRider]

I dont even know what to call what i am now because "Christian" is so widely used. Here is what i believe: I believe that God sent His son to earth to die for ALL of mankind's sins and to give us an OPPORTUNITY to be saved. It is our job to accept that gift, once accepted, Jesus Christ comes into our hearts and saves us. How do you accept the gift? Ask Jesus to come into your heart, thank him for what he did, ask forgiveness for your sins and thats it. Once Jesus is in your heart you are going to heaven. If you were sincere you are truly born again and are going to heaven, nothing can stop that. That is what i believe.

[New Setup]

I believe in God, i don't give him a name, and i don't need to go every Sunday too a building of tree and metal (Church) too show that i believe in him and only him. I don't need proves for his exists, cause his in my heart, no-one can take it from me (not even emo's). There is no such thing as hell, why would God want too see his own creatures suffer, if there is a hell, then it means that God is evil, WHICH I DON*T BELIEVE HE IS.

Amen!

[Enjoi]

Ask Jesus to come into your heart, thank him for what he did, ask forgiveness for your sins and thats it. Once Jesus is in your heart you are going to heaven. If you were sincere you are truly born again and are going to heaven, nothing can stop that. That is what i believe.

I would have to disagree with you there. I do not believe in "once saved always saved" I believe you can lose your salvation. I believe you need to follow Him in an every day walk. You can't ask him into your heart and no matter what you do you will go to heaven.

[mushroom_girl]

I'm agnostic. I believe that no one knows whether there is/are truely any God(s) out there. However, it is possible that there is something out there. I'd rather not pass judgement on a religion until there is some sort of proof that is shown to me to make me believe that a religion is 100% true. After all, if there is a God or some sort of divine being, we won't know if he exists or not until we die, and my curiosity is not so strong that I'd want to find out any time soon. ;)

I love to question people's faiths and get into arguments with them about religion because I learn more that way. It's nothing personal, it's just interesting for me. So don't feel offended, because for all I know...your religion is right.

[drakonfire]

Christian - Protestant/Nazarene

[Learz]

I believe that no single religion holds all the answers.

My personal religion could be considered a combination of several beliefs I feel to be "somewhat true."

[dirka dirka]

Being Agnostic or Atheist is sketchy to classify as faith.

[TheSilverRider]

I would have to disagree with you there. I do not believe in "once saved always saved" I believe you can lose your salvation. I believe you need to follow Him in an every day walk. You can't ask him into your heart and no matter what you do you will go to heaven.

Check your PM's

[pils]

I was raised as a Roman Catholic (Christian)
And I still go to church probably once or twice a month.
But in recent years I think I have discovered that I am leaning towards agnostic more than being a christian...

[TeXaS LoNgHoRnS]

...Is judaic supposed to be jewish? if so, what the hell is the thirteen principles of faith? im jewish, and i have never heard that...

[xerent]

Being Agnostic or Atheist is sketchy to classify as faith.

Atheism is a faith in a non-existence of a divine power.

I agree with you on the Agnostic front though. It's a popular enough option that I thought it should be differentiated between non-religious however.

Yeah, you really ought to add a certain clarity to the poll. Differentiate between the "Christian" that practically everyone is, and someone that is a serious Christian.

Why? I don't really care what sect or degree you decide to take your faith. I'm just interested in the general demographic that accepts Jesus Christ as a prophet, son of God, savior, what have you. The details I leave with you.

The whole 'Born Again' is just a tiny pet peeve of mine.

I understand it's the whole symbolism of living life anew with Christianity in your heart, I get that part.

It's just, well... you never actually died in the first place... which by my count is a pre-requisite, much less died for someone's sins. Makes it hard to be Born -Again-. How about just Born?

But I digress. This isn't the thread for that.

[_Thunder_]

Agnostic

[meat.eater]

Being Agnostic or Atheist is sketchy to classify as faith.

Atheist certainly is. Agnostic is worth the discussion.

EDIT: I should probably read the rest of the thread before I post.

[Realist]

Science.

[TheSilverRider]

Science.

Ha ha, science. Your telling me you have a "faith" in science? Ok, then tell me through "science" what happens to you when you die?:huh:

[steve12]

I'm Christian, but am still interested in the many theories science has provided as explanations for how everything began. Judiasm tales are interesting too, but nonetheless, I am Christian in the end.

[dirka dirka]

Science.

Stop looking for attention.

[Oisin]

Ha ha, science. Your telling me you have a "faith" in science? Ok, then tell me through "science" what happens to you when you die?:huh:

Decomposition?

I'm a Roman Catholic.

[Ali]

YAY! only terrorist playing TAO!

[dirka dirka]

It's sad to see how many people are just blind followers, it looks like about 50%.

[steve12]

It looks like we all can fit under option 7 in someway.

[The AIDS Virus]

I go to church, I have learned "my" religion. I don't believe in "my god"...

[xerent]

YAY! only terrorist playing TAO!

/cheers on the underdog!

Woo!

[Realist]

Ha ha, science. Your telling me you have a "faith" in science? Ok, then tell me through "science" what happens to you when you die?:huh:

I think this is a non-sequitor.

Stop looking for attention.

I deserve it more than you. At least I'm not a "blind follower." ;)

[speaker4thedead]

I dont believe in anything :)

[mushroom_girl]

Yeah, you really ought to add a certain clarity to the poll. Differentiate between the "Christian" that practically everyone is, and someone that is a serious Christian.

You both believe in the same thing. Just because you go to church every Sunday doesn't make you a better Christian than my mother who can't.

And if you don't believe in anything and you just don't care, well...I think that's kind of sad. It's good to question, it's good to think. :)

SilverRider: You can't tell us what happens after we die either. Don't expect Realist to be able to tell you what happens to you after you die, because he can't. You can't. No one can until they die. You have no better (or worse!) of an answer than anyone else here.

[Enjoi]

I don't think his point is that he goes to church more than other people. That doesnt have to do with being a serious Christian. I think he wants it to be differentiated because there are some that claim to be Christians and others who actually have a daily walk with Jesus Christ. :)

[Mithrandir]

You both believe in the same thing. Just because you go to church every Sunday doesn't make you a better Christian than my mother who can't.

I don't think the number of times you go to church has anything to do with actual Christianity. However, there are people that say they're Christians but don't believe core Christian beliefs, such as the resurrection of, or even the divinity of, Jesus Christ. Other people say "I'm a good person" and say they're a Christian because of it. That doesn't have a lick to do with Christianity.

Please be careful about assuming things about what I believe. There are many Christian stereotypes that I don't fit.

[ACHANGEL]

Jesus is going to save my blacked soul

[mushroom_girl]

I don't think the number of times you go to church has anything to do with actual Christianity. However, there are people that say they're Christians but don't believe core Christian beliefs, such as the resurrection of, or even the divinity of, Jesus Christ. Other people say "I'm a good person" and say they're a Christian because of it. That doesn't have a lick to do with Christianity.

Please be careful about assuming things about what I believe. There are many Christian stereotypes that I don't fit.

It looked like a snotty comment to me, sorry. :o

I understand what you're saying, but I've never actually heard someone say "I'm a good person, so I'm Christian." All of the Christians I know believe in God and Jesus.

[Kyir]

Decomposition?


Giggle.

[Northwind]

Ha ha, science. Your telling me you have a "faith" in science? Ok, then tell me through "science" what happens to you when you die?:huh:
What is wrong with you TSR? People are posting their various beliefs and Realist posts his and you immediately mock him and challenge him to describe definitively something that NO ONE (regardless of religion) can ever know? But should anyone mock your unexamined beliefs, you get all offended. Either it's OK to mock others if they believe differently than you or it's not.

Pick one.

Personally, I suspect your reaction comes from being so unsure of your beliefs that you won't allow yourself to question anything - lest the whole tapestry unravel on you. But what do I know? :huh:

Anyway, once again Unitarian Universalists get left off of the polling options. :angry: But, it's really more of a community of people seeking meaning than it is a "religion," so . . . meh.

[The AIDS Virus]

.Personally, I suspect your reaction comes from being so unsure of your beliefs that you won't allow yourself to question anything - lest the whole tapestry unravel on you. But what do I know? :huh:

I agree with NW on this one.

[Coffin Fedder]

Well, I'm Native American and White as most of TAO knows. I choose to follow my Native side myself.

[Dresicos]

Thats what HW said, you copy cat. I don't care if you 2 are brothers.

[TTitan44]

My mother's side is Jewish, while my father's side is Christian. I have yet to pick one yet, I feel like it is too big of a decsion right now. I feel I need to experience life more, and hopefully that could lead me one way or another towards a religion.

[Dresicos]

Be a Jewish Christian.

[Coffin Fedder]

Thats what HW said, you copy cat. I don't care if you 2 are brothers.

Shit son, I haven't posted in how long? I saw the thread figured I'd check it out for myself. I've become much like Hatchet Warrior in many different ways.

[mushroom_girl]

UGH! I hate when people say stupid crap like "I'm half Brazillian, half Jewish."

...Think about that for a minute, and you MIGHT wanna kill someone. :dry:

[Coffin Fedder]

UGH! I hate when people say stupid crap like "I'm half Brazillian, half Jewish."

...Think about that for a minute, and you MIGHT wanna kill someone. :dry:

I'm half Liz and half Savanna! A little bit of Jeffery also!

[TTitan44]

/rant

Yeah, I'm 100% German. But people always are like so you're 50% Jewish, 50% German. Jewish is not a god damn country. Religion and nationality are two different things.

And then I get wait your Jewish and German? How does that work? Your a Jewish Nazi? People really are retarded. Not all Germans were Nazis. If there were no Jews in Germany there most likeyl would have been no WWII/

[Jaymee_]

I'm half Liz and half Savanna! A little bit of Jeffery also!

I'm pretty sure two halfs make a whole. If you are half Liz and half Savanna, how can you have a little of Jeffery?

I hate when ppl do that. =/

[Dresicos]

I'm 1/1000000 Jaymee.

[ubah]

I agree with you on the Agnostic front though. It's a popular enough option that I thought it should be differentiated between non-religious however.

heh you said agnostic front (http://www.agnosticfront.com/)

I'm into the native american thing. As most of you know, i'm native american and white. I choose to follow my native side of my family.

Well, I'm Native American and White as most of TAO knows. I choose to follow my Native side myself.

I am also from Native and European ancestry, I Identify with my Native side but that does not preclude me from accepting Christs forgiveness.

/rant

Yeah, I'm 100% German. But people always are like so you're 50% Jewish, 50% German. Jewish is not a god damn country. Religion and nationality are two different things.

And then I get wait your Jewish and German? How does that work? Your a Jewish Nazi? People really are retarded. Not all Germans were Nazis. If there were no Jews in Germany there most likeyl would have been no WWII/

Well said except I think there would have been that war anyway.

[Learz]

Be a Jewish Christian.

I have a friend who's that. "Messianic Jeudaism", I think. (Pardon my spelling).


/rant
If there were no Jews in Germany there most likeyl would have been no WWII/

Not to start a war with you (pun intended), but that's incorrect.
There would have been a WW2 if even if there were no Jews in the world.

[WaCk-HeAd]

Yeah, I'm 100% German. But people always are like so you're 50% Jewish, 50% German. Jewish is not a god damn country. Religion and nationality are two different things.

UGH! I hate when people say stupid crap like "I'm half Brazillian, half Jewish."
It's actually pretty interesting to start a thread and discuss the need for Americans to tell everybody which part of the world their ancestors are from.

It's pretty typical for the USA, I think. It even has a name, which I forgot.

Examining the behavior between the diaspora's in America and the actual countries, specifically American Jews and Israel, is pretty sweet.

Hmm, I might want to create a thread like that...

Hmmmmmm...


People really are retarded. Not all Germans were Nazis. If there were no Jews in Germany there most likeyl would have been no WWII/


Not to start a war with you (pun intended), but that's incorrect.
There would have been a WW2 if even if there were no Jews in the world.

Hahahaha, you two are stupid.

Lets take away an enormous part of history and predict what would happen in mid 20th century!!

Yay!

[Dresicos]

China would now be called Re Fried Beans.

[Hatchet Warrior]

Thats what HW said, you copy cat. I don't care if you 2 are brothers.
You should care. He's becoming more like me everyday.

UGH! I hate when people say stupid crap like "I'm half Brazillian, half Jewish."

...Think about that for a minute, and you MIGHT wanna kill someone. :dry:
Not our fault that it's true. I could say I hate when people say stupid crap like "I'm only white", but that would destroy my point of mocking them later on.

I'm pretty sure two halfs make a whole. If you are half Liz and half Savanna, how can you have a little of Jeffery?

I hate when ppl do that. =/
He has a little Jeffery inside of him I believe.

[dirka dirka]

The ignorance in this thread is amazing.

[Jaymee_]

We love you too Dirka.

[Match Strike]

/rant

Yeah, I'm 100% German. But people always are like so you're 50% Jewish, 50% German. Jewish is not a god damn country. Religion and nationality are two different things.

And then I get wait your Jewish and German? How does that work? Your a Jewish Nazi? People really are retarded. Not all Germans were Nazis. If there were no Jews in Germany there most likeyl would have been no WWII/
African American isn't a country either. :rolleyes:

[Jaymee_]

What was the point of this thread again? I forgot.. Seriously, I had to scroll up to remember what thread I was reading. : ) Gotta love forums!

[mushroom_girl]

It's actually pretty interesting to start a thread and discuss the need for Americans to tell everybody which part of the world their ancestors are from.

It's pretty typical for the USA, I think. It even has a name, which I forgot.
I actually always wondered why no one can just say "I'm American," because if you're born in America you're American. Like, people's backgrounds are important I guess. But if someone goes to a different country and they're asked where they're from, they're not going to list their background. They're going to say that they're American. Just because their ancestors are from Russia doesn't make them Russian.

I have a point that I think goes with this, but I might get my head bitten off if I say it so I'll have to think a little more about saying it. ;)

Not our fault that it's true. I could say I hate when people say stupid crap like "I'm only white", but that would destroy my point of mocking them later on.
I think you're missing what I'm saying, or I'm just misreading what you're saying.

Jewish = religion
Brazillian = nationality

You can be 100% Brazillian and still be Jewish.

[Cuathon]

What is wrong with you TSR? People are posting their various beliefs and Realist posts his and you immediately mock him and challenge him to describe definitively something that NO ONE (regardless of religion) can ever know? But should anyone mock your unexamined beliefs, you get all offended. Either it's OK to mock others if they believe differently than you or it's not.

Pick one.

Personally, I suspect your reaction comes from being so unsure of your beliefs that you won't allow yourself to question anything - lest the whole tapestry unravel on you. But what do I know? :huh:

Anyway, once again Unitarian Universalists get left off of the polling options. :angry: But, it's really more of a community of people seeking meaning than it is a "religion," so . . . meh.

ooh, a lot of people i know are UU.

[WaCk-HeAd]

they're not going to list their background. They're going to say that they're American. Just because their ancestors are from Russia doesn't make them Russian.

They won't say they're Russian but the Americans I've met told me that they're American "but actually 15% this 11,5% that and 25% this etc."


I have a point that I think goes with this, but I might get my head bitten off if I say it so I'll have to think a little more about saying it. ;)

We should totally make a thread. We can discuss Jews in America and their Israel lobby.

Would totally be sweet.

[Cuathon]

haha, the thing about percentages is ever so true. i hear people who are like 5th generation americans say that stuff. its funny as hell.

[mushroom_girl]

We should totally make a thread. We can discuss Jews in America and their Israel lobby.

Would totally be sweet.
That's not where I was going....but if you make a thread I might make my point! Hopefully no one will hate me after it. :)

Agnostic Power!

[Forest_Archer]

I picked Hindu, because I'd like to think that's how it works.

[WaCk-HeAd]

That's not where I was going....but if you make a thread I might make my point! Hopefully no one will hate me after it. :)

Agnostic Power!

I would, but I'm totally too psyched right now.

I have a cool new job. Wooohhooooo

[T3km4n]

I'm into the native american thing. As most of you know, i'm native american and white. I choose to follow my native side of my family.

I'm part Native American and part Irish. I'm proud of both, but don't necessarily follow either side. And also, I'm agnostic. There are so many faiths that all seem so wrong to me in some ways, and so right in others. I believe most of these faiths cause good, but I can't see them as real.

[Match Strike]

I'd like to note that Judaism is more than just a religion. There are people who are very Jewish culturally but are completely a-religious.

I identify with certain aspects of Jewish culture, because that's how I was raised, but I'm agnostic.

[ubah]

I actually always wondered why no one can just say "I'm American," because if you're born in America you're American. Like, people's backgrounds are important I guess. But if someone goes to a different country and they're asked where they're from, they're not going to list their background. They're going to say that they're American. Just because their ancestors are from Russia doesn't make them Russian.

I have a point that I think goes with this, but I might get my head bitten off if I say it so I'll have to think a little more about saying it. ;)


I think you're missing what I'm saying, or I'm just misreading what you're saying.

Jewish = religion
Brazillian = nationality

You can be 100% Brazillian and still be Jewish.

It is important for us who are Native because our history is different from the European's who came and raped their way into this country.

[mushroom_girl]

It is important for us who are Native because our history is different from the European's who came and raped their way into this country.

It doesn't make people here any less American. And even if your background is different, you're still American (I'm assuming, since you haven't mentioned living elsewhere. :) ).

I'm just going to say what I was gonna say before...Why do people have to be African-American, or Asian-American or anything like that? Why can't they just be American? If you're not from Africa, you're not African. If you're not from Spain, you're not Spanish. If you're not from Italy, you're not Italian. Your background might be, but you were born HERE. I'm just tired of the way that America is viewed.

Everyone here thinks that their backgrounds from other places are more important than the fact that they are from America. It kind of makes me sad, because people in other countries are from their country, end of story. They don't obsess over their backgrounds. Sure, we're different races, but just making names to add onto American to differenciate yourself is just causing a sense of segregation that I don't like.

[ubah]

It doesn't make people here any less American. And even if your background is different, you're still American (I'm assuming, since you haven't mentioned living elsewhere. :) ).

I'm just going to say what I was gonna say before...Why do people have to be African-American, or Asian-American or anything like that? Why can't they just be American? If you're not from Africa, you're not African. If you're not from Spain, you're not Spanish. If you're not from Italy, you're not Italian. Your background might be, but you were born HERE. I'm just tired of the way that America is viewed.

Everyone here thinks that their backgrounds from other places are more important than the fact that they are from America. It kind of makes me sad, because people in other countries are from their country, end of story. They don't obsess over their backgrounds. Sure, we're different races, but just making names to add onto American to differenciate yourself is just causing a sense of segregation that I don't like.

Not people who are subjugated by the country they live in, ask a Romany what their nationality is, or when Macedonia was part of Yugoslavia what did they say.

[Hatchet Warrior]

I'm part Native American and part Irish. I'm proud of both, but don't necessarily follow either side. And also, I'm agnostic. There are so many faiths that all seem so wrong to me in some ways, and so right in others. I believe most of these faiths cause good, but I can't see them as real.

*high fives t3k* Same here, but I follow my native side of the family.

[Magician]

I'm Canadian, living in Scotland. Because I have an accent, everyone assumes me to be Scottish. I see myself as Scottish - I've lived here for half of my life and can apply for citizenship if I so desire. I also hold my Canadian roots in high esteem. It's definitely part of who I am, and regardless of where I go, I'll always keep that with me and wear it proudly.

Keeping on topic: I'm in a religious state between Christian and Atheist, slowly working my way into Christianity. It's a slow process, but definitely worthwhile.

[TTitan44]

We should totally make a thread. We can discuss Jews in America and their Israel lobby.

Would totally be sweet.

Jews FTW!

[ChronKing]

i go to a youth group every wednesday with my friends and it is really laid back and fun, its a great way to get into religion

[T3km4n]

*high fives t3k* Same here, but I follow my native side of the family.

I follow my native side to an extent, but can't say I fully do because I drink like I'm Irish.

[Hatchet Warrior]

Uh...Native Americans drink too, just not as much :P

[xerent]

I'm just tired of the way that America is viewed.

I'm sure you're tired of the way New Jersey is viewed too.

[Walrus]

i am an atheist, mostly because i find the idea of a divine being far too convenient.
to elaborate, i believe (without wanting to offend anyone) that religions are being used like a security blanket, and that it is simply the result of people not wanting to realise/admit that the fate of the human race is in our own hands, and that as things stand, we dont seem to be doing a very good job of things. within another century or so, most of our fossil fuels and other non-renewable energy sources will be exhausted, with renewable energy sources currently not providing even NEARLY enough power for the world. furthermore, climate change is occuring (global warming) and humans are woefully unprepared for it. with india and southern africa quickly advancing in technology and infrastructure, and china having already become a superpower, our (humans') energy consumption rate is only going to increase, and we simply dont have the resources to be able to deal with it.
the point is, the human race is royally screwing things up, and i believe that religion is little more than an excuse, a belief that it doesnt matter how we act, that eventually god will come down and save us all. its a nice idea, but as i said earlier, too convenient for my liking.
i find the scientific explanations much more convincing im afraid.

if other people choose to believe in a divine being then i have no problems with that, but these are my opinions on it.

[Jeffery]

Uh...Native Americans drink too, just not as much :P
Actually, the stats on Indians show they have a MUCH higher alcoholism rate than almost any other segment of the population.
It doesn;t help that state taxes in liqueur don;t apply on reservations......

According to IHS records on alcoholrelated
illness and death among tribes in the United States
(IHS 1996), the age-adjusted alcohol-related death rate in
1992 was 5.6 times higher among the Indian population
than among the U.S. population in general; this rate was
7.1 times higher in 1980. Nearly twice as many Indian
men as Indian women die from alcohol-related causes
between ages 45 and 64, the peak age range for such
deaths. Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis are 3.9 times
as prevalent in the Indian population as in the general
population; alcohol-related fatal automobile accidents
are 3 times as prevalent; alcohol-related suicide is 1.4
times as prevalent; and alcohol-related homicide is 2.4
times as prevalent.

[ubah]

Actually, the stats on Indians show they have a MUCH higher alcoholism rate than almost any other segment of the population.
It doesn;t help that state taxes in liqueur don;t apply on reservations......

Yea sure if the price was different then that would stop em...
Oh well cant expect something smart from jeff

[Jeffery]

You do realize that Sin Taxes have been successfully used to coerce people into smoking and drinking less in several places, including New York, right?

The price DOES affect the usage level. Forcing the price higher does result in those in lower wage brackets can not afford to consume items at the same rate if the price is raised, since their income is not raised at the same rate.

Take this example. Someone say makes $40 a day. They spend $5 of that per day on alcohol. If you double the price of the alcohol, but do not increase their income, then their consumption would drop.

Unfortunately this is not a perfect method, as hardcore drinkers simply begin cutting back on other items, including food and shelter, before giving up their alcohol.

But used as an overall method, it has been proven to work.

[ubah]

We are talking alcoholics right? They wont be deterred by the price. There was a ban on all liqueur on the res for a long time and it did not stop the alcoholism rate from being exceedingly high. What you are talking about is forcing state and federal taxes on what is supposed to be sovereign land by long standing agreements. It is this kind of stepping on Native rights that leads to more alcoholism than the price of alcohol.

[Realist]

I think natives have higher alcoholism rates because they never evolved resistance to its effects.

[ubah]

I think natives have higher alcoholism rates because they never evolved resistance to its effects.

There is a bacteria in found in the stomachs of those with European ancestry that breaks down alcohol faster than those who don't have the bacteria. You have alot of mixed ancestry Natives, like me and almost all here who have posted about being Native, who should have it also and alot of Natives are of mixed ancestry. But it is not a resistance to the effects of alcohol that makes you and alcoholic or not, it is wither you need to drink to feel normal, if you get drunk easier wont make you an alcoholics but if you feel the need to self medicate with alcohol or other drugs to deal with your life then you will develop an addiction. The reason you find an ethnic group with higher cases of drug use (even alcohol) has more to do with a feeling of helplessness and having no control over your life, to say it is for another reason than the social environment that breeds these conditions is just looking in a more convenient direction to dwell on than the social issues.

[Jeffery]

Socio-economic and biological tendencies are all part of ongoing studies about this. There is also the vast cultural background clashing with modern societal values that tend to have a damaging effect on the family structures of many native tribes, which results in lifestyles that are more likely to result in addictive behavior.

With the withdrawal of more and more of the federal government direct support of some tribes there is a growing trend of returning to more tribal values of old. Much like Ubah has touched on, it is the loss of older values that often strengthened a tribe, and its members, that is thought to lead towards the higher rate of alcoholism.

One interesting note about some of the studies is that there is a higher percentage of non-drinkers among the same population. It's almost like there is very little middle ground, and those studied are either hard-core alcoholics, or abstain completely........

The economic factors are also interesting. Among tribes that have little to no self-supportive economies, alcoholism can be a larger problem. Those that have built such things as casinos, which generates money for most of the tribe, the patterns change.

[ubah]

Sorry we have taken this thread off topic so I made a new one (http://tacticsarenaonline.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1217346#post1217346) about Native issues

[iceman2001]

There is a bacteria in found in the stomachs of those with European ancestry that breaks down alcohol faster than those who don't have the bacteria.


Wrong. You are thinking about dairy products for people of non-European ancestry. Large percentages of Asian and Native American adults are lactose intolerant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerant

The effects of alcohol is not due to "breaking it down" in the stomach, but by absorbtion into the bloodstream.
http://www.forcon.ca/learning/alcohol.html

[Rogue_Wolf]

I am a Christian.

I was raised up in a Christian home, but never actively went to church, despite my mom's passion for God. Around the end of elementary school, we started to attend a church in my city. I loved it, but I stopped going because I was diagnosed with bone cancer when I was 11 years old, and me and my mom moved across the state to St. Jude's Children's Research hospital. We stopped going entirely eventually. My mom became my spiritual guardian, and I started to see the effect of God working in my life. The biggest of them being that my tumor, which normally grows double its size every 3 days, shrink and die after only 4 doses of chemotherapy. I don't think I was miraculously healed. I do believe that because of Him, my tumor was found early enough to be treated. That I had the most amazing doctors treat me. And that I had the prayers and the people that helped me throughout that ordeal. I don't believe God gave me cancer, but He did help me make the best of it and become the person that I am today. A person that I can say that I'm proud of. I've never had sex, despite being with my girlfriend, who is also a Christian, for almost a year now, and I have never done drugs. I mess up...a lot. But everything always turns out ok.

Today, I am an active member of my church, which I have been at for almost a year and a half now, and was Vice President of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes at my school last year. I actively volunteer and try to spread God's love to others. I love Sunday morning service, but its not the most effective way of spreading the Word of God. I know God has a purpose for me, and I hope to fulfill that purpose according to His will.

-Rogue_Wolf

[Scorpionz]

Religion doesn't bother me, I don't bother religion.

[WaCk-HeAd]

What is your hatred towards homosexuals based on then?

[Zoper]

I'm Christian, I beleive God sent Jesus to die for us. Nothing else makes sense to me. Again, being brought up in a Christian hope helps out, along with other religions.

Born Once, Die Twice; Born Twice, Die Once.

[Ächilles]

Uhm... I don't really know where I am.

I hold most of my respects towards nature. I acknowledge that at any moment, nature could wipe us from the face of the Earth, and we are here by it's good graces. I have much respect for the planet, and while I wouldn't say I worship nature, I certainly believe it has a certain divinity to it. I find myself most at peace when isolated and in the wilderness.

I meditate on a regular basis, but am not a Buddhist. I do it because it's healthy, and allows you to discover a lot about yourself.

I accept that I know nothing of anything, and that there is now way I can know if there is or is not a "god" per se.

So in a nutshell, I have a lot of respect for the Earth, I believe in the practice of meditation, and do not claim to understand the unknown.

[Jaymee_]

What is your hatred towards homosexuals based on then?

Who are you talking to?

[bludhoundz]

Who are you talking to?

Scorpionz

[Jaymee_]

Wow, I didn't know Scorpz was like that.. what a butt head = /

[Dresicos]

Homosexuals scare me.

But see, I am fine with Lesbians. Sexist?

Bi guys freak me out, bi girls I am fine with. Sexist?

[S3RO]

I believe in God. :)

[Dresicos]

Which one?

[S3RO]

1 God. Who loves all of his creations.

[Rogue_Wolf]

What is your hatred towards homosexuals based on then?

Nature?

I think that homosexuality goes against nature just as much as it goes against God. I don't hate homosexuals at all. I have a lesbian sister, and one sister who just converted away from lesbianism, and I love them just as much as my straight sister.

I really hate the stereotype that just because you're a Christian it means that you hate homosexuals. I hate homosexuality itself, but not the partaker in it.

And this argument isn't pointed towards you Wack. I'm just ranting.

-Rogue_Wolf

[mushroom_girl]

I'm going to be a broken record and just point out that there are homosexual animals.

I do like the way you put it, but there are those who hate homosexuals as people, and not just their gender preference. I'm not going to argue with you about it though, because it's like going around in circles on this forum with the same people making the same points. :)

[iceman2001]

Homosexuals scare me.

But see, I am fine with Lesbians. Sexist?

Bi guys freak me out, bi girls I am fine with. Sexist?

In short, yes ;)

Honestly though, probably 95% of straight guys have that attitude as well, and it really doesn't offend me in the least.

[iceman2001]

Nature?

I think that homosexuality goes against nature just as much as it goes against God.

I don't hate homosexuals at all.


I really hate the stereotype that just because you're a Christian it means that you hate homosexuals. I hate homosexuality itself, but not the partaker in it.

And this argument isn't pointed towards you Wack. I'm just ranting.

-Rogue_Wolf

Dude, I really don't know how to respond to you....I don't know if it was a result of typos or not. But honestly dude, it sounds to me like you are very confused on this subject. Perhaps we could clarify?

[dirka dirka]

I'm going to be a broken record and just point out that there are homosexual animals.
You don't know that. Just because animals of the same gender participate in sex doesn't mean they're homosexual. Think of it like jail. Maybe there were just no females around. Having "gay" sex doesn't make you gay. Although, I'd argue differently in real life, as I am slightly disturbed by that type of person (no offense, lesbians scare me too along with certain bikers and goth people (it's a way of life)).

Dude, I really don't know how to respond to you....honestly I don't know if you made some typos, because you went from hating homosexuals to tolerating them to hating them once again.
Having been accused of contradicting myself, I'll reply with the FACT that he isn't contradicting himself like you're making him out to. He is using subtle differentiations so that he does not. I am not saying I support his views, though.

[iceman2001]

Having been accused of contradicting myself, I'll reply with the FACT that he isn't contradicting himself like you're making him out to. He is using subtle differentiations so that he does not. I am not saying I support his views, though.

Let me boil down to what I'm confused about with his statement:

#1 Homosexual goes against nature and god. (makes me believe he is against it)
#2 I don't hate homosexuals at all.
#3 I hate homosexuality itself, but not the partaker.

My best GUESS at his position would be that he hates homosexuality as he views it as against nature and god, but not the homosexuals themselves, as they are still children of god, ect. I'm guessing this would be his position due to the fact that it is the primary position of most of the Christian faith.


There is an inherent problem with this, however. Unfortunately, I am bisexual, and I cannot change that. IF you tell me you hate me for what I cannot change, then you hate me. And I will hate you back if you try and tell me that I just choose to be the way I am. And then try and tell me you still have forgiveness in your heart despite my "sinful choice."


Regardless Dirka, I'm not going to get into an arguement with you on what is in fact a personal matter. We've been down this road before, and I don't like where it ends. I still do wish to know what Rogue wolf was getting at if he does read this post...

[dirka dirka]

Let me boil down to what I'm confused about with his statement:

First statement: Homosexual goes against nature and god. (makes me believe he is against it.

Second statement: I don't hate homosexuals at all.

Third statement: I hate homosexuality itself, but not the partaker.

My best GUESS at his position would be that he hates homosexuality as he views it as against nature and god, but not the homosexuals themselves.

Unfortunately, I am bisexual, and I cannot change that. IF you tell me you hate me for what I cannot change, then you hate me.
Regardless of your personal view and all that. "I don't know if you made some typos, because you went from hating homosexuals to tolerating them to hating them once again." You just answered your own question and admit he is not contradicting himself. That's all I wanted.

Regardless Dirka, I'm not going to get into an arguement with you on what is in fact a personal matter. We've been down this road before, and I don't like where it ends. I still do wish to know what Rogue wolf was getting at if he does read this post...

Does it look like I'm trying to start an argument? All I am saying is that what he said made perfect sense, don't try and say it didn't.

I am not saying I support his views, though.

[mushroom_girl]

There is an inherent problem with this, however. Unfortunately, I am bisexual, and I cannot change that. IF you tell me you hate me for what I cannot change, then you hate me.

BURN THE HEATHEN!

[iceman2001]

BURN THE HEATHEN!
Nah, Christians have already figured out that burning people makes them martyrs. Much better to just discredit them. :rolleyes:

Oh and Dirka, there's nothing new to debate with you, you haven't changed in years.

http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?p=931681&highlight=Dirka#post931681

I know you can't help but get the last word in on this one, so please take as many pages as you want. But don't worry, I won't respond. You got yourself promoted to the ignore list again. Which still only has your name on it.

[ubah]

OK both sides will dislike what I have to say, I am a Christian and I think that most Christians focus on a sin that they don't do instead of the ones they also are guilty of. Homosexuality is a sin in most faiths but it is not a "worse sin", the mere fact that someone can say that is a sin and I don't do it makes them willing to go after the sinner with hate in their heart. I have sinned, I have sex with women I am not married to, but you wont see people react nearly as badly as if I had sex with men. They are the same thing, I give into temptation and sin, but the fact it is a temptation that most people also give into makes them not focus on. Here is another, ever lie? To lie is a sin just as much as a sexual sin but you don't see mobs of people persecuting lairs. No because they are guilty too, people only want to point to others and say he is bad. We are all sinners but that doesn't stop me from accepting gods love. A Christian who mistreats a man because he likes other men is committing the worst thing I feel a Christian can do. He is pushing someone away from Gods love just for his own selfish reasons, and that is something he should feel great shame for. Now I must apologize I have been drinking a little bit at the time of posting this, and my words may not be as easy to understand as I would like, but it is what it is.

[Rogue_Wolf]

I'm going to be a broken record and just point out that there are homosexual animals.

I think I had a gay dog once... His name was Hal. He's dead though, but he was the best dog I ever had. But, mainly, my point was that you need a male and a female to mate in order to procreate and thus continue their species. Not to mention that the male and female reproductive organs were created to work specifically together in order to do so. And I agree with Dirka. Hal humped just about anything, but I don't know if that meant he was gay.

Dude, I really don't know how to respond to you....I don't know if it was a result of typos or not. But honestly dude, it sounds to me like you are very confused on this subject. Perhaps we could clarify?

I thought my post was clear. I can reiterate if needed.

Let me boil down to what I'm confused about with his statement:

#1 Homosexual goes against nature and god. (makes me believe he is against it)
#2 I don't hate homosexuals at all.
#3 I hate homosexuality itself, but not the partaker.

My best GUESS at his position would be that he hates homosexuality as he views it as against nature and god, but not the homosexuals themselves, as they are still children of god, ect. I'm guessing this would be his position due to the fact that it is the primary position of most of the Christian faith.


There is an inherent problem with this, however. Unfortunately, I am bisexual, and I cannot change that. IF you tell me you hate me for what I cannot change, then you hate me. And I will hate you back if you try and tell me that I just choose to be the way I am. And then try and tell me you still have forgiveness in your heart despite my "sinful choice."

You guessed quite well, which makes me think that you understood me, but still want to listen to and debate about my beliefs. Your last paragraph in the quote of you clarifies this. Very well. I like to think I can carry on an intelligent conversation without it getting out of hand. Even on a subject as touchy as this one.

I do hate homosexuality. Its a "I hate the sin. I don't hate the sinner" logic. I hate smoking, yet I have many close friends who smoke. I disapprove of having sex out of marriage, but I have premiscuous friends. Now, I'm not too naive to say that my opinion of the people in these examples isn't lowered because of their actions, but I do not hate them. So if you are a gay man, I am not going to dislike you because of it or automatically look down on you. I just consider it a negative trait. You can be a lesbian with a great sense of humor and is always joking. I'll like you and get along with you, but my opinion of said person wouldn't be as high due to their choice of lifestyle. If you need anymore examples, I can try to think of more.

I will try to answer your last paragraph without making you angry, but I must make one thing clear: I, like many other Christians, don't think that someone is born a homosexual. And thats not something I'm saying because my pastor says it. I believe that through different events and occurences in a person's life, homosexuality and the thought of it can be encouraged, and more often than not, the person will accept and practice that thought. You say you are attracted to both men and women. Thats not something absurd. I think its very possible for a man to be attracted to another man. It all depends on the person, mainly, and the way they were raised and the position they are in at life.

For example, my sister is bisexual (She has a girlfriend and claims to be a lesbian, but has told me that she still finds men attractive). Now, my sister is very rebellious. She hated having to follow my parent's rules, and anyone's for that matter. She drank, did drugs, had sex, and anything else she wanted to do. She was first introduced to homosexuality by interacting with a lesbian woman who she worked with. Through her friendship with this woman, her mind was opened to the thought of homosexuality. She eventually was introduced to a girl, her current girlfriend, and created a friendship with her aswell. And as the saying goes, you become like the people you surround yourself with. Well, this girl was 10 years older than her, owned her own house, and had very wealthy parents. Now, my mom is a very religious woman, and my sis just loved to see my mom's head turn. So, naturally, more conflict rose and was created more often. Eventually, my parents had enough, and allowed my sister to leave. So now she got to do her own thing. She dropped out of high school, moved into her girlfriend's house, and was allowed to do anything she, and any other teenager her age, wanted to do. I my opinion, homosexuality was an opportunity for her. It was a way out. And now today, she has become comfortable with her lifestyle, but in order to stop being a lesbian, she would have to break up with her girlfriend and thus lose the fun way of life she wanted to lead. Anyway, that is just one example of why I don't believe a person is born gay.

So yes, inherently, I can't say I hate homosexuality but yet love homosexuals, since homosexuals can't help their sexuality. But since I disagree with that statement, my belief has validity.

-Rogue_Wolf

[Brahman]

What is your faith?

The doorway to imperishable Faith is found in the Direct experience of Reality, a flawless Faith that requires not a single belief, thought, nor emotion to exist. Consciousness is undefinable yet wholly present and far more tangible and real than any belief could ever be. The belief that apples are a cool, tasty and refreshing fruit does not give the experience of an apple. You must pick one up and bite into it to experience the apple. So also must you carve through the descriptions and definitions of life and bite into Reality itself.

There is a point within each human that resides beyond the thought or emotion of Faith. It is by birthright within every humans capability to Know. That... can only be directly experienced, and That is not only the source of thought and emotion but the source of experience itself, the Source of you. And the good news... it is not difficult to Know or experience That.

Why is it easy? Because the experience of the Source transcends the necessity to define it in words or encapsulate it within the memory of an emotion. Indeed, to experience the essential nature of Reality requires far less effort than does attempting to define Reality through beliefs, definitions, theory or hypothesis. In fact it is effortless. No matter whether you are atheist, christian, muslim, satanist, taoist, wiccan, scientist, evolutionist, or darwinist makes Absolutely No Difference! Truth is Universal and impartial to human thoughts and opinions. Or do you think that the Vast and Infinite nature of Reality bends to fit within the boundries of your belief?

The pure awareness of Consciousness is an experience that is so Complete and Whole unto itself that to Know it is to have Mastered Faith. That is the end of all roads and the resolution of all belief.... and That is there for you to experience right Now even as you read these words!

Expand your Consciousness. :)

[S3RO]

The doorway to imperishable Faith is found in the Direct experience of Reality, a flawless Faith that requires not a single belief, thought, nor emotion to exist. Consciousness is undefinable yet wholly present and far more tangible and real than any belief could ever be. The belief that apples are a cool, tasty and refreshing fruit does not give the experience of an apple. You must pick one up and bite into it to experience the apple. So also must you carve through the descriptions and definitions of life and bite into Reality itself.

There is a point within each human that resides beyond the thought or emotion of Faith. It is by birthright within every humans capability to Know. That... can only be directly experienced, and That is not only the source of thought and emotion but the source of experience itself, the Source of you. And the good news... it is not difficult to Know or experience That.

Why is it easy? Because the experience of the Source transcends the necessity to define it in words or encapsulate it within the memory of an emotion. Indeed, to experience the essential nature of Reality requires far less effort than does attempting to define Reality through beliefs, definitions, theory or hypothesis. In fact it is effortless. No matter whether you are atheist, christian, muslim, satanist, taoist, wiccan, scientist, evolutionist, or darwinist makes Absolutely No Difference! Truth is Universal and impartial to human thoughts and opinions. Or do you think that the Vast and Infinite nature of Reality bends to fit within the boundries of your belief?

The pure awareness of Consciousness is an experience that is so Complete and Whole unto itself that to Know it is to have Mastered Faith. That is the end of all roads and the resolution of all belief.... and That is there for you to experience right Now even as you read these words!

Expand your Consciousness. :)

There are many spiritual religious paths because not every religion is right for every person.

[dirka dirka]

Oh and Dirka, there's nothing new to debate with you, you haven't changed in years.

http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?p=931681&highlight=Dirka#post931681

I know you can't help but get the last word in on this one, so please take as many pages as you want. But don't worry, I won't respond. You got yourself promoted to the ignore list again. Which still only has your name on it.

Ice, I don't know if you're retarted, or just on the defense because someone else is insulting your way of life. I'll assume it's the latter and tell you to take one giant step back. I'm not arguing about anything. I'm not voicing my opinion about anything. I am simply pointing out that Rogue_Wolf is not contradicting himself like you want everybody to think. What he is saying makes sense. Agree or disagree with its context, it is coherent and logical.

[S3RO]

Iceman was right about one thing, you had to get the last word. Feel free to neg both of us now. :)

[dirka dirka]

Iceman was right about one thing, you had to get the last word. Feel free to neg both of us now. :)

He was right that I was going to reply because he was vastly distorting reality? How is this even the last word in a thread that'll last a while. Why would I neg either of you? It's pretty simple what I am saying and it has nothing to do with the context of this thread, only to do with what ice is claiming of rouge.

[S3RO]

Im use to people negging me here for saying hi. But I think alot of people have gotten off-topic here by talking about sexuality rather then the faith of their religion.

[dirka dirka]

But I think alot of people have gotten off-topic here by talking about sexuality rather then the faith of their religion.
I agree, however the two do have common grounds.

[Brahman]

There are many roads to Rome, and inevitably all roads to lead to Rome.

It is the same with the Source, just as everything blossomed forth from That so does every path lead back to That. Funnily enough however people on different paths argue and war with one another in defense and proclamation of their 'only' and 'most' righteous path to Truth. It is helpful to recognize that each religion, belief, and even scientific ideology are each different branches on the Same tree. All grow from the same tree trunk and All are rooted in the same Infinite consciousness that gave rise to them. The Key is that you can directly experience the root of the Tree of life rather than wasting time squabbling over it's branches.

Within the silent timeless experience of consciousness one recognizes that not only is there room for all beliefs and ideas but there is room for Infinitely more besides! Also in the experience of Consciousness One recognizes that to proclaim one idea or path as more superior than another is to restrict the Infinite nature of Reality by placing one aspect of creation into their box of acceptance while rejecting all other definitions of Truth thereby limiting their personal experience of creation. Why do people do this? Because to 'think' outside their box is to step into the unknown where the foundation of beliefs and ideas that they identify with is shaken irrevocably. And yet it is so simple and easy and a Joy to experience!

[S3RO]

There are many roads to Rome, and inevitably all roads to lead to Rome.

It is the same with the Source, just as everything blossomed forth from That so does every path lead back to That. Funnily enough however people on different paths argue and war with one another in defense and proclamation of their 'only' and 'most' righteous path to Truth. It is helpful to recognize that each religion, belief, and even scientific ideology are each different branches on the Same tree. All grow from the same tree trunk and All are rooted in the same Infinite consciousness that gave rise to them. The Key is that you can directly experience the root of the Tree of life rather than wasting time squabbling over it's branches.

Within the silent timeless experience of consciousness one recognizes that not only is there room for all beliefs and ideas but there is room for Infinitely more besides! Also in the experience of Consciousness One recognizes that to proclaim one idea or path as more superior than another is to restrict the Infinite nature of Reality by placing one aspect of creation into their box of acceptance while rejecting all other definitions of Truth thereby limiting their personal experience of creation. Why do people do this? Because to 'think' outside their box is to step into the unknown where the foundation of beliefs and ideas that they identify with is shaken irrevocably. And yet it is so simple and easy and a Joy to experience!

And then in religion there is the law of silence. :p

[Brahman]

:)

[xerent]

#2 I don't hate homosexuals at all.
#3 I hate homosexuality itself, but not the partaker.

I'm calling total bullshit on this.

Way to try and keep everyone happy on the politically correct front while attempting to adhere to an extremest attitude.

[Jeffery]

mmm. Not so sure on your call.

Personally, I think homosexuality is disgusting. The physical acts themselves are disturbing to my way of thinking.

And yet, I accept homosexuality as natural, part of nature and life. I know and interact with homosexuals on an almost daily basis (yeah, hippy college towns are a breeding ground for "immoral behavior")

Is it extremist for me to view homosexuality that way? No more so than to view body piercings and tattoos in the same light. Again, I hate the very thought of either, and think people who do so are idiotic. I dislike the very thought of it happening to not only me, but anyone. And yet, I have friends who are into it. Heck, several of them run a tattoo and piercing shop.

It is not hard to dislike (yeah, most people who use the word hate have no idea what hate really means) a lifestyle, but still like a person who lives it.

[Jaymee_]

/shrug
I say to each his own. I'm not into it, but if someone else is.. whatever.

[xerent]

mmm. Not so sure on your call.

Personally, I think homosexuality is disgusting. The physical acts themselves are disturbing to my way of thinking.

And yet, I accept homosexuality as natural, part of nature and life. I know and interact with homosexuals on an almost daily basis (yeah, hippy college towns are a breeding ground for "immoral behavior")

Is it extremist for me to view homosexuality that way? No more so than to view body piercings and tattoos in the same light. Again, I hate the very thought of either, and think people who do so are idiotic. I dislike the very thought of it happening to not only me, but anyone. And yet, I have friends who are into it. Heck, several of them run a tattoo and piercing shop.

It is not hard to dislike (yeah, most people who use the word hate have no idea what hate really means) a lifestyle, but still like a person who lives it.

Oh yea, I completely think it's disgusting.

It's not extremest to have distaste in a way of life.

But to actively -hate- something... Well, hate is an extreme emotion, and I don't think you can draw the lines so clearly when you're dealing with something of that calibur.

[xerent]

#2 I don't hate homosexuals at all.
#3 I hate homosexuality itself, but not the partaker.

Apparently I took this out of context.

This thought in itself I find to be total hypocrisy, but it's my understanding that Iceman meant something different, so any harshness directed at him, I'm sorry.

[Realist]

Personally, I think homosexuality is disgusting.

Personally, I think you're disgusting.

[Rogue_Wolf]

Xe, Iceman was quoting me when he was stating those three beliefs...

I'm still trying to grasp what you were saying though.

...or just on the defense because someone else is insulting your way of life.

If I offended Iceman, I sincerely apologize. I am guilty of throwing the word hate around too much, partly due to me responding to Wack's statement that hate for homosexuals is derived from religion, so to say I am an extremist on this topic is untrue. Iceman is probably a great individual, but I do disapprove of his lifestyle choice. But, it is not my place to say so to him, which is why I tried to refer to homosexuality in general.

-Rogue_Wolf

[Cuathon]

rogue, do you have aim?

[Brahman]

I don't find having a penis in my butt a very appealing idea. :p Likewise, it does not appeal to me to stress, hate or dislike anyone who chooses to do this. So, I don't focus on either of those thoughts. What a waste of time. Why not focus on praise, gratitude and love instead? Why judge others at the expense of our peace within? Using the Bible or Koran as a means of justifying ones own chosen beliefs in stress and separation isn't very wise either. Sure, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but do you know to what expense your opinions cost you by increasing anger, fear, judgment, and hatred within? Most people are unaware of the effects that their own idea's and beliefs have upon themselves because they are too busy directing their focus outward onto what is fucked up out there and how to fix it.

Any stress one experiences associated with something 'Out There' simply points to stress within. When something outside of yourself disturbs you to the point of disrupting inner equanimity than it is a stress contained within the nervous system that one is reacting to. There are many extremist 'muslims' today who are reacting violently to the 'stress belief' they carry inside about americans. There are many 'christian' americans who feel the same way about muslims. Neither however stand in representation of the True teachings of their religion. So is it the same with those who have a psycho-physiologically adverse reaction when presented with another's lifestyle choice. Insecurity within leads to a distrust in security without. When you have found peace and acceptance within yourself it naturally flows out into the rest of creation around you.

[*Sanosuke*]

I don't find having a penis in my butt a very appealing idea. :p Likewise, it does not appeal to me to stress, hate or dislike anyone who chooses to do this. So, I don't focus on either of those thoughts. What a waste of time. Why not focus on praise, gratitude and love instead? Why judge others at the expense of our peace within? Using the Bible or Koran as a means of justifying ones own chosen beliefs in stress and separation isn't very wise either. Sure, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but do you know to what expense your opinions cost you by increasing anger, fear, judgment, and hatred within? Most people are unaware of the effects that their own idea's and beliefs have upon themselves because they are too busy directing their focus outward onto what is fucked up out there and how to fix it.

Any stress one experiences associated with something 'Out There' simply points to stress within. When something outside of yourself disturbs you to the point of disrupting inner equanimity than it is a stress contained within the nervous system that one is reacting to. There are many extremist 'muslims' today who are reacting violently to the 'stress belief' they carry inside about americans. There are many 'christian' americans who feel the same way about muslims. Neither however stand in representation of the True teachings of their religion. So is it the same with those who have a psycho-physiologically adverse reaction when presented with another's lifestyle choice. Insecurity within leads to a distrust in security without. When you have found peace and acceptance within yourself it naturally flows out into the rest of creation around you.

I agree with some and disagree with other parts. But that first line, seriously got me to lol.

[ks5bns]

Live and let live.
let ppl do what they want as long as it dont hurt anyone.
legalise drugs legalise just about everything (if it doesnt hurt no-one else) let people do it.
i am not really religious but i am a muslim.
oh and i would like to say i know a little about religion but i have no idea what this 13 principals of faith is (judaism) so could some1 help there.
also u should have put other as one of the options

[iceman2001]

Xe, Iceman was quoting me when he was stating those three beliefs...

I'm still trying to grasp what you were saying though.



If I offended Iceman, I sincerely apologize. I am guilty of throwing the word hate around too much, partly due to me responding to Wack's statement that hate for homosexuals is derived from religion, so to say I am an extremist on this topic is untrue. Iceman is probably a great individual, but I do disapprove of his lifestyle choice. But, it is not my place to say so to him, which is why I tried to refer to homosexuality in general.

-Rogue_Wolf

I would have made a response earlier to you, but I'm having trouble formulating a response. We've both quickly zeroed in on the core difference in our thinking: that essentially homosexuality is a choice. I'm not really offended by your remarks, because I don't think you have the intention of being hurtful at all. Given your experience with homosexuality, I really can't blame you at all for your views. Also remember this really isn't new territory for me. I've run across many Christians who view any deviance from heterosexuality as a sin, much like adultry (although usually more despised).

It's unfortunate that much of your exposure to homosexuality comes from your sister. It seemed to me that your views have been heavily influenced by actions. (correct me if I'm wrong here) Your sister seems to be acting very immaturely regardless of her sexual standpoint, and is clearly exploiting her "homosexuality" (real or not) to get back at your parents. With this type of precident, I honestly applaud you for being as tolerant as you are.

What I am trying to get you to reckonise is that there are people in this world who are attracted to people of the same sex, which is something they cannot stop even if they wanted to, much like you cannot "choose" to stop being attracted to women. Sure, they can surpress acting on these urges, much like a Priest will live a life of monogamy. Some gay men even marry women, and live a straight life. The former govenor of my state (NJ) had a wife and children for over ten years before he confessed to being a homosexual his entire life.

Those of us who are truely homosexual/bisexual never view it as a choice. It's likely that your sister is going through "a phase" that she'll grow out of. It's also possible that she's been trying to cope with her homosexuality, and has become rebelious to your parents because they refuse to accept what she cannot change. The gay community tends to get very upset when people (typically religous) tell us that we are just making sinful decisions, and that we could be like everyone else if we wanted to. You compared it to deciding to smoke cigarettes. The gay community would instead suggest there's no choice at all; it's a thing you cannot inherently change.

[iceman2001]

mmm. Not so sure on your call.

Personally, I think homosexuality is disgusting. The physical acts themselves are disturbing to my way of thinking.

And yet, I accept homosexuality as natural, part of nature and life. I know and interact with homosexuals on an almost daily basis (yeah, hippy college towns are a breeding ground for "immoral behavior")

Is it extremist for me to view homosexuality that way? No more so than to view body piercings and tattoos in the same light. Again, I hate the very thought of either, and think people who do so are idiotic. I dislike the very thought of it happening to not only me, but anyone. And yet, I have friends who are into it. Heck, several of them run a tattoo and piercing shop.

It is not hard to dislike (yeah, most people who use the word hate have no idea what hate really means) a lifestyle, but still like a person who lives it.

Honestly, I can live with this attitude. Disliking homosexual behavior (instead of hating it), but accepting it as a "natural part of life" is about all can realistically expect. You also but it on par with body piercings and tattoos, relatively minor faults which you can easily overcome.
I'm calling total bullshit on this.

Way to try and keep everyone happy on the politically correct front while attempting to adhere to an extremest attitude.

How dare you call me politically correct! :p
We'll let this one slide for the sake of keeping this debate focused.

[dirka dirka]

If it can be a "phase" that people grow out of, I'm curious what other phase you might compare it to? Mid-life crisis? Gender-identity crisis? Something else?

[iceman2001]

If it can be a "phase" that people grow out of, I'm curious what other phase you might compare it to? Mid-life crisis? Gender-identity crisis? Something else?

In Rogue's sister's case, what I'm seeing is a teenage rebellion against parents. In another words, doing something for the mere fact that you know your parents hate it. His sister knows her mother hates homosexuality, and she therefore "becomes one" to distance herself. A comparison? A more extreme version of going goth and getting a tongue ring at the age of 16 to anger your parents.

For example, my sister is bisexual (She has a girlfriend and claims to be a lesbian, but has told me that she still finds men attractive). Now, my sister is very rebellious. She hated having to follow my parent's rules, and anyone's for that matter. She drank, did drugs, had sex, and anything else she wanted to do. She was first introduced to homosexuality by interacting with a lesbian woman who she worked with. Through her friendship with this woman, her mind was opened to the thought of homosexuality. She eventually was introduced to a girl, her current girlfriend, and created a friendship with her aswell. And as the saying goes, you become like the people you surround yourself with. Well, this girl was 10 years older than her, owned her own house, and had very wealthy parents. Now, my mom is a very religious woman, and my sis just loved to see my mom's head turn. So, naturally, more conflict rose and was created more often. Eventually, my parents had enough, and allowed my sister to leave. So now she got to do her own thing. She dropped out of high school, moved into her girlfriend's house, and was allowed to do anything she, and any other teenager her age, wanted to do. I my opinion, homosexuality was an opportunity for her. It was a way out. And now today, she has become comfortable with her lifestyle, but in order to stop being a lesbian, she would have to break up with her girlfriend and thus lose the fun way of life she wanted to lead. Anyway, that is just one example of why I don't believe a person is born gay.

[dirka dirka]

I've heard the "rebellious teenager" thing too many times and been in too many cases to believe it. When I did drugs, it wasn't because I was rebelling, it was because it was something new and fun. (Turns out it was stupid too, owell.) When I'm doing 150 down the interstate it isn't because I'm rebelling, it's because I like speed better than air. People do things for their own reasons, sure. I just don't see rebelling as a popular reason.

[ks5bns]

does it matter ?

[Rogue_Wolf]

I would have made a response earlier to you, but I'm having trouble formulating a response. We've both quickly zeroed in on the core difference in our thinking: that essentially homosexuality is a choice. I'm not really offended by your remarks, because I don't think you have the intention of being hurtful at all. Given your experience with homosexuality, I really can't blame you at all for your views. Also remember this really isn't new territory for me. I've run across many Christians who view any deviance from heterosexuality as a sin, much like adultry (although usually more despised).

It's unfortunate that much of your exposure to homosexuality comes from your sister. It seemed to me that your views have been heavily influenced by actions. (correct me if I'm wrong here) Your sister seems to be acting very immaturely regardless of her sexual standpoint, and is clearly exploiting her "homosexuality" (real or not) to get back at your parents. With this type of precident, I honestly applaud you for being as tolerant as you are.

What I am trying to get you to reckonise is that there are people in this world who are attracted to people of the same sex, which is something they cannot stop even if they wanted to, much like you cannot "choose" to stop being attracted to women. Sure, they can surpress acting on these urges, much like a Priest will live a life of monogamy. Some gay men even marry women, and live a straight life. The former govenor of my state (NJ) had a wife and children for over ten years before he confessed to being a homosexual his entire life.

Those of us who are truely homosexual/bisexual never view it as a choice. It's likely that your sister is going through "a phase" that she'll grow out of. It's also possible that she's been trying to cope with her homosexuality, and has become rebelious to your parents because they refuse to accept what she cannot change. The gay community tends to get very upset when people (typically religous) tell us that we are just making sinful decisions, and that we could be like everyone else if we wanted to. You compared it to deciding to smoke cigarettes. The gay community would instead suggest there's no choice at all; it's a thing you cannot inherently change.


I appreciate that you take time to reply. Its more important for your response to be well thought out than quick. My only up close and personal dealings with homosexuals are with my two sisters, so to say I know enough to formulate an in-depth philosophy on the matter is false. I just knows what I seen, and seen what I knows.

I don't think our core difference is our disagreement of it being a choice, since I do realize that people can be attracted to the same sex. I think our difference it that you use the reason of not helping your attractions as an excuse to act on them. I don't like using this example, since I don't like technicalities of it, but pedephiles cannot help being attracted to minors, but they are. From some religious stances, homosexuality and pedephilia are compared to each other when it comes to sexual deviancy. They have their obvious differences, which I know you can pick out, but they are similar in from the aspect that there is attraction towards something abnormal: a person being attracted to another member if his/her sex and an adult being attracted to a minor. Some people like to get funky with animals. Is that cool? Well, not for the dog. By the way, I'm not saying that homosexuality is worse than pedephilia. I'm just attempting a human to human attraction example.

And yeah, you basically have my sister pegged, but I don't think its a phase any more. She's been with her girlfriend, who I have forgot to mention is a not too attractive golf instructor, for over two years that I know of. But, she wasn't gay all of her life. She was boy crazy as a teenager, and was so gracious to tell me that she was sexually active with boys when she was my age. Which leads me to believe this attraction was coaxed into her over time. I may be wrong, but I do think I'll ask her that the next time I see her. Now, your former governor may have been telling the truth, but when you're in a public spotlight like he was likely in, I bet he wouldn't have been elected governor if he was an admitted homosexual. But I have heard of other gay men who were married, but I don't know their situation. But I do think that most homosexuals, if not all, were not simply born with their attraction. I think it was learned over time. I think the same thing could be said about heterosexuals. Gay men just simply haven't finished their "cootie" stage yet. ;)

-Rogue_Wolf

[iceman2001]

I don't think our core difference is our disagreement of it being a choice, since I do realize that people can be attracted to the same sex. I think our difference it that you use the reason of not helping your attractions as an excuse to act on them. I don't like using this example, since I don't like technicalities of it, but pedephiles cannot help being attracted to minors, but they are. From some religious stances, homosexuality and pedephilia are compared to each other when it comes to sexual deviancy. They have their obvious differences, which I know you can pick out, but they are similar in from the aspect that there is attraction towards something abnormal: a person being attracted to another member if his/her sex and an adult being attracted to a minor. Some people like to get funky with animals. Is that cool? Well, not for the dog. By the way, I'm not saying that homosexuality is worse than pedephilia. I'm just attempting a human to human attraction example.

And yeah, you basically have my sister pegged, but I don't think its a phase any more. She's been with her girlfriend, who I have forgot to mention is a not too attractive golf instructor, for over two years that I know of. But, she wasn't gay all of her life. She was boy crazy as a teenager, and was so gracious to tell me that she was sexually active with boys when she was my age. Which leads me to believe this attraction was coaxed into her over time. I may be wrong, but I do think I'll ask her that the next time I see her. Now, your former governor may have been telling the truth, but when you're in a public spotlight like he was likely in, I bet he wouldn't have been elected governor if he was an admitted homosexual. But I have heard of other gay men who were married, but I don't know their situation. But I do think that most homosexuals, if not all, were not simply born with their attraction. I think it was learned over time. I think the same thing could be said about heterosexuals. Gay men just simply haven't finished their "cootie" stage yet. ;)

-Rogue_Wolf

Read Lolita anyone? :rolleyes: I'll let the pedophile analogy slide, with just this one comment. Pedophiles attraction is very damaging to children, and obviously sex before the age of consent is considered rape, and rightly so. Two gay men consenting to do stuff behind closed doors does not damage society in any way, and I therefore think that society has no buisness interfering. Of course we both know this already, but I just had to say it ;). Just watch who you make this comparison to, as most members of GLAD would probably rip your head off in the real world.

I don't really think we'll get any further with this issue. All I can hope is that you get some more exposure to gays in the world, and that you keep an open mind when you meet them. Unfortunately due to your sister's rebellious nature and your parent's religious beliefs, homosexuality seems to have created a rift within your family. All I can say is that this in certainly not always the case.

[Realist]

Some people like to get funky with animals. Is that cool? Well, not for the dog.

You just know the wrong dogs.