Wardless pwntar

[pils]

Well I, like a number of others, have grown tired of the same old centers you see all the time, and I have grown even more tired of the text book corners you can never seem to get away from...
And so I have been working with some new forms, and some ideas that I haven't really ever, seriously, tried before.

And well heres what I have come up with.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g125/b-battery/wardlesspwntar.jpg
I like the set a lot, and the only problems I have with it are usually my desire for wanting a BW... But thats usually so I can just keep a pyro or witch that I don't absolutely need anyways...
The other problem that I have yet to face is that its very open to pyro burn...
So I realize its not perfect, but the chance that my opponent has 2 pyros in a position to go for my magic units is a risk I have been taking lately...

The set works quite well when it comes to sacrafice...
Quite often I lose a pyro,knight, and sometimes witch for something like a knight, scout, witch, and good positioning.
I have yet to lose with the set, but at the same time I can't really say I have played anyone that has beaten me before with it...
Just been playing your run of the mill greys on army and GL....

I'm looking for any constructive criticism you can offer, and if you're up to it some testing.

[bobo99]

Ya, I was beaten pretty badly by you earlier on my grey on Army. Although I messed that game up pretty bad from the start... It seemed to work rather well, even if I was playing well it has to much offence for my "textbook corner turt" to overcome. I'd say keep it without the barrier ward, you'd most likely end up giving up a pyro for it which in my opinion would be to much to give up in a centre set. I've experimented with 2 pyros and a witch in sets like this and it seems that having the ability to do ~15+~15+~24 area of effect damage is often to much for an opposing unit to overcome, or atleast force the other player to draw the unit back. The mages backed up by knights and a scout can be a dangerous force indeed. Also the mages don't have 'very' safe spots to retreat too, but safe enough for a centre set.

[pils]

Yeah, you have some good points.
Maybe I will give soda's type of thinking a chance, and take out the chanty.
I know how he thinks the chanty is a waste of a unit. :p

And if I replaced the chanty with a BW this could be a very deadly offensive set.
But on the other hand I do love to pull out the chanty end game, but she hasn't really done much other than allow me to secure a win faster.

[bobo99]

Well, I think the chanty is definately not needed but yet not a "waste". I could potentially, if this set were to be in a close game in the end without range units see the chanty being helpful. The one other thing a chanty does that a BW wouldn't do is prevent flanking on that side. When I played you, you played offensively. If a player were to take advantage of this and flank you, would you prefer a chanty or a BW? I personally would take the chanty.

I also would be curious on where you would put a BW. Their has been numerous arguements on where to put a BW, most of the time those are for corner sets. I would think unless you put the BW last row, it would be rather open in a centre set. But if you put the BW last row, you limit the agessiveness you can have and still have the ability to barrier if needed. Not to mention limit the clerics mobility.

None the less, good set if used correctly :)

[pils]

I would probably put the BW in front of the cleric...
Also, just recently I played someone who was skilled, and used 2 pyros + LW.
Just as I suspected he used them effectively, and put my scout, knight, and pyro in serious trouble...
I ended up winning in the end with a 13hp knight, with a side shot on his knight. (If he woulda blocked I woulda lost)

So I thought I would try to prevent those 4 units from getting so messed up.

Move assassin back one space. And replace it with the scout. Thats what I have right now.
After I made that switch I got into a game with loldrg( or somehting like that)
He had your average center...
I made a risky move and just barraded him with my magic basically disregarding his LW threat completely... It didn't work out to well, and he managed to recover from the 54 magic damage I through at him... and killed my magic without sustaining much loss on his part...
I ended up losing that game, after his scout got a few 70%+ blocks...

So obviously there are still a few kinks to work out, and my strategy with it is far from mastered.

[The Wild]

Looks a bit weak on the assassin side, but hey, that's just me. I would be happy to help you test it.

[Ninai]

Swapping the assassin with one of the knights on the other side should correct it a bit. I know similar sets are usable, I've been recently beaten up by one of them.

[Mithrandir]

If you want to learn the art of playing a wardless set, play TACTOHOLIC. Based on my recent game with him, he's probably the best player in the game these days that doesn't use wards.

[steve12]

Not to mention, Jamon is pretty experienced with sets which involve only a Barrier Ward (and a Pyromancer instead of the Lightning Ward).

[Forest_Archer]

I use a set (in which close variations add up to a 28-0 record) that has the same units, but the chanty is in front of the cleric and the attackers are spread out in a wavy frontish line rush.

[cheeky lisa]

i feel the same way, i always use to have a corner set but it was starting to get very boring and i started to use a wardless set which works great, but then i put in a BW it helped alot. and ive seen alot of other people using different sets like urs, i think it makes the game more fun than the old corner set which was just a fight to kill eachothers LW

[pils]

If you want to learn the art of playing a wardless set, play TACTOHOLIC. Based on my recent game with him, he's probably the best player in the game these days that doesn't use wards.

Yeah Tacto's wardless isn't bad, and he uses it quite well.
And a lot of the time I try to change mine around it always ends up looking like his.
But yeah I have played tacto. His wardless doesn't match up great against a good center or offcenter, with a witch that is capable of getting up front quick/BW'd.
But yeah, I've only played that set twice... The first time it kicked my ass, the second I had an idea of how to play it and it was really really close till the end where I got a d/c... But it was still anyones game.

This set... I'm trying to make it as close to perfect as I can get (obviously there will always be weakness' I just want to make them minimal) and then from there let what skill I have master it...
And then, I think that I have a good shot at being a bit better and learning more. I already feel using this set has made me better...
I never realized how easy it is to kill a scout before this. :p

[Mithrandir]

When I played TACTO recently, I used my center turt. At first, I was thinking I had the set advantage, and maybe I would against anyone else using his set. But against TACTO, I felt like I was hanging on by my teeth to prevent him from all out rushing and destroying me.

By the way, if you're looking for a perfect wardless set, don't put your mages on the second to front row.

[steve12]

I use a set (in which close variations add up to a 28-0 record) that has the same units, but the chanty is in front of the cleric and the attackers are spread out in a wavy frontish line rush.

I think I remember that... you were the one with the "Grey Rush" that people were making fun of, right? They are positioned like the units of an experienced gold rush would be positioned.

[pils]

When I played TACTO recently, I used my center turt. At first, I was thinking I had the set advantage, and maybe I would against anyone else using his set. But against TACTO, I felt like I was hanging on by my teeth to prevent him from all out rushing and destroying me.

By the way, if you're looking for a perfect wardless set, don't put your mages on the second to front row.

I'm curious as to why not?
Is it the possibility of being basically massacred by opposing pyros/witch's?
Or just the possibility of someone getting a cheap shot with an LW?

Because if either is the case, I'm going to have to disagree. So long as the opposer doesn't have more than 3 mages him/herself I can usually handle it...
Because for them to heal means that I can heal, which usually results in it getting a bit messy with unit exchanges, but I usually come out at the very least even with my opponent, if not on top.

[Mithrandir]

I'm curious as to why not?
Is it the possibility of being basically massacred by opposing pyros/witch's?
Or just the possibility of someone getting a cheap shot with an LW?

Because if either is the case, I'm going to have to disagree. So long as the opposer doesn't have more than 3 mages him/herself I can usually handle it...
Because for them to heal means that I can heal, which usually results in it getting a bit messy with unit exchanges, but I usually come out at the very least even with my opponent, if not on top.

It's the LW thing.

Simple principle: if you're looking for a perfect form, you need something that you can't make a great counter-set to. I can make an easy counter set to yours that would result in my not having any disadvantage at all. I could use exactly the same units, except an lw offcenter instead of one pyro, and then you'd find yourself down a unit all game long.

I don't doubt you can usually handle the lw thing. But against a great player with a great counter set, like what I just described, you'll lose unless you get crazy lucky.

This doesn't mean your set sucks. It just means it's not the perfect set you're after.

[pils]

Yeah I suppose you are right.
I will still probably work with this set, see what I can do with it. If possible make any easy fixes that I come across.

But at the same time, maybe I will work with AU's idea...
He has his defensive center... Maybe I will work with a defensive wardless (that isn't default. :p)
Or, like AU, try some stuff with a BW instead of a pyro or w/e AU uses.

[Ancient Ooze]

Pils setup is pretty good, but i agree with the wild, its weak on the Assasssin side. Pils your setup is good becuase you can easily migrate hurt guys to the back, or charge setups with all that magic. btw <---saiyan not shredder.

[Match Strike]

-57- just beat me in a very fun game. He used a corner wardless against my center form with lightning ward (no barrier). It was my first time using my form, and his first against a non-noob with his.

Even without barrier ward, chant was the death of me, though I would have forced a draw if his knight hadn't blocked. It was a very fun game, and as both our sets were unconventional it was more interesting than standard turt v turt.

[pils]

K, well I kinda forgot to mention that a few days ago I took some of the advice offered here, and it has worked out spectacularly.
Heres what I got now:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g125/b-battery/wardless.jpg
The biggest problem I still face is when I am matched up against a magic heavy center, and I get first turn.
Thats about it... And even then I still usually pull off a win, or at the very least an incredibly close game...

because, like i said before, it gets pretty messy with unit exchanges...
But this thing is almost unfair to the average corner set in which the only magic is a witch in the center of their form....

[phoenixofflames]

I use a set (in which close variations add up to a 28-0 record) that has the same units, but the chanty is in front of the cleric and the attackers are spread out in a wavy frontish line rush.

uhh i beat that. no matter which side of a corner turt, and LW still gets a free mage. then i use my knights to shield your flanking. i mean it was better than i thought it was, but still 28 - 0 cant be right.

[Brahman]

Does uniformity make any difference when you're just using it as an all around set? In other words does center, same, opp. side opponent forms matter in your experience with your set?

My first thought was to bring that 3rd knight to the front line, move all mages back one space; Center LW's are fairly common these days and I hate to lose a unit on the first turn. Put scout between the Pyro's which offers a greater opportunity for first turn shots to either side of the board because there are open lanes between the knights plus you also have access to either side of the board. And the sassin........ well, you can do a few things with her I guess.

This just seems to be prepared for more diversity as far as sets you face I think. But you have been playing longer than me so maybe yours is better. idk

Note: I know the image distortion is annoying. :( Didn't wanna mess with it though.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3694/greylwlessxl1.png (http://imageshack.us)
By Brahman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/Brahman) at 2007-07-25

[-57-]

It's the LW thing.

Simple principle: if you're looking for a perfect form, you need something that you can't make a great counter-set to. I can make an easy counter set to yours that would result in my not having any disadvantage at all. I could use exactly the same units, except an lw offcenter instead of one pyro, and then you'd find yourself down a unit all game long.

Not necesarily true, using a LW yourself means your also down a unit, only 9 to kill, which in my mind has always been the way I think when playing with my various wardless sets.

I think it's the fact that it's an unmoving piece that can deal great damage and potentialy knock out 3 units instantly

[TheSilverRider]

I use a set (in which close variations add up to a 28-0 record) that has the same units, but the chanty is in front of the cleric and the attackers are spread out in a wavy frontish line rush.

This is what FA is talking about and i have been using it and am 10-1 with it:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2623/picture6om2.png

[Learz]

Around 2 years ago I played a guy with a really interesting formation. It was so original, and gave me such a tough time, that I took a screenie. Unfortunatly, I lost the screenie :( so I tried to re-create the formation.

The basic shape was this (although I'm 90% sure the units were in different places).
http://imagesjack.us/picture.php?p=2a63ba6e72.jpg

It could have been something like this, but I can't remember.
http://imagesjack.us/picture.php?p=e82c77967d.jpg


He might have had a L/W in the middle, but again, I'm not sure.
What was so interesting about it was that is was pretty much a big trap. You could walk in, but then he would box you into a small area and hit you with his mages. The chanty helped protect his open side.
Also, I remember when I was playing that a Gold formatino would just take him apart, but for grey games it would be very interesting.
I won that game with like 2 badly damaged units.

Just food for thought.

[pils]

Heh, well I kinda do that too but with more versatility.
On that first form it seems like a center could just throw everything they got up there and it would probably be enough.... Because the person with the center would probably have an LW picking away at knights or at the very least keeping mages at bay. And if he got 3-4 units inside his formation like that with more on the outside seems like it would cripple him... I'm not sure though.

As for that second one, again a center would tear it up (I would think) because boom pop shot on the scout with LW would force him on the defense. At which point he would have to defend against knights in a very awkward position.
Granted that probably wasn't exactly it... But meh...

As for my form, I don't necessary box people in. I just get usually like one knight in for a back shot.
So thats 22 damage right there. Then, I bring in my farthest pyro for a lil damage. At that point I assume s/he would heal and I would hit him in the back again with knight. He would probably retreat there and I would get him with a pyro or witch....
I don't feel like doing the math right now (I was planning on it but gave up midway) but that is probably enough damage to kill a knight, and in some cases 2 (I love hitting 2 knights with pyros to bring them to 17 each).

But yeah, I don't always have to box them in, just get a unit behind them so they can't run out of my range. Which allows me to be more versatile in flanking situations. As you saw when you tried to flank me learz. ^^ Definitely the best game my set has seen.

This is what FA is talking about and i have been using it and am 10-1 with it:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2623/picture6om2.png

Yeah I have seen that set before. The pyros are in the worst position possible though... Spreads strive off of sacrifice quite often, but usually the sacrifice is trading units. Not losing one on your first turn...
I might move the pyro on the left back a tile... And the one on the right either left one tile, or back one tile.

[*Sanosuke*]

Me > pils. <3

[mantis33]

I use a set (in which close variations add up to a 28-0 record) that has the same units, but the chanty is in front of the cleric and the attackers are spread out in a wavy frontish line rush.

*cough* 28-1 after today's chanty-whorage. :)

[*Sanosuke*]

*cough* 28-1 after today's chanty-whorage. :)

Pwnt!

[Learz]

But yeah, I don't always have to box them in, just get a unit behind them so they can't run out of my range.

That's assuming they WANT to run... :p

Out of curiosity, have you found the pyro to be better then the witch, or vice versa? Or are they both unique?
I feel that although the pyro is useful and effective, there are better units I can take instead of it.
But I was curious as to how you felt about it.

[bobo99]

I personally think the pyro and witch are both unique. The pyro can be better in some instanced but I think the witch is better than the pyro. 2 pyro's vs 2 witchs, most of the time, I'd prefer the 2 witchs. 1 witch vs 1 pyro, depends on the situation. The pyro is a little more survivalable though, with their godlike blocking :angry:

[pils]

That's assuming they WANT to run... :p

Out of curiosity, have you found the pyro to be better then the witch, or vice versa? Or are they both unique?
I feel that although the pyro is useful and effective, there are better units I can take instead of it.
But I was curious as to how you felt about it.

I find them to both be incredibly unique.
I use the two units quite differently, and usually they both come in handy at different times.

For example, pyros are great to stick behind a line of good blockers and kinda shoot from a safe distance, usually resulting in forcing the opponent to waste a heal, or to just wear a unit down as it comes towards my form.
Where as witchs, they are a wonderful unit to make a killing blow with, or do some hefty unblockable damage when I need it most.

Both can be used defensively or offensively, but I find my witch works best when played defensively, because she can kinda hit and run. Allowing me to kill any threat to her before they get her.

[BlackSyphon]

so when is this stud going into the database?

I like it a lot, it looks deceivingly open to knights and scouts, but retreating is easy the way you have set up, and attacking a pyro with a knight is just stupid. They definitely won't kill the pyro, and there knight is in danger for a while.

Its solid for a dropless and wardless center form.

du

[pils]

I suppose it does belong in the data base.
I will put the most updated, and best form of the set in there in a bit.