Overview of all units...

[darkdelirium]

Essentially my views on all the units and some rather nice things to realize about them all. I'm starting out with the boring "duh" kinda things, and ending with the more controversials... enchantresses good? Archer versus Assassin? Pyro's suck?

Let's start with the Cleric.

Yeah yeah we're all of two sides. Ultimate, versus not. He's useful... gotta give it up to that. But I've played (and won) games where I've used him only twice. I question every now and then whether I should replace 'em with a dark magi witch. 12 points to everyone is nice, especially if you can get your opponent to not focus on killing one unit, but on spreading the damage around. Thats the trick to maximizing the potential of this guy, everyone favorit anti pyro. I'd include, and give him a 4 out of 5 bonus. My parting tip... don't move this guy around. Ever. 3 turn delay if unmoved (in case your wondering the formula its half normal delay rounded up for attacks without move. 5/2=2.5+.5=3).

The Dark Magi.
Highest damage potential in the game, and in much more useful form. Beats the pyro... 20 damage spread over 4 squares=80, 15 over 5=75 (okay okay, factor in the delay and pyro wins, but they all die in two hits so factoring in the delay is not that much of an option). So Dark Magi > Pyro... replace 'em across the boards everyone! Kills the cleric in a hit, great kamikaze for that. My favorite anti noob tactic. Keep 'em in there and keep 'em a threat.

The Fighter
Brute force, great block... send 'em against the other non magic units and watch sparks fly... he wins every time. Exception... assassin. He gets attacked from rear every time in a 1v1 battle with assassin, and couple that math with the assassins 40% block from sides and assassin gets a kill first. (im not actually running this math... dispute if you will). Great against the mage's too but ya gotta be careful. You need your fighters to be greater than his by the end of the day. My tip... remember, if you only move him you get to go again next turn. If you get attacked by a fighter first strike, the math works out to a you'll win sort of way if you move once, let his delay on fighter waste itself, then move and attack to get a free attack from rear. Only do this if he missed his first attack on your fighter though.

NOW... The fun stuff.

Enchantresses...
Majority opinion... they suck. My gospel truth? Yes, but not by as much as you'd think. Enchantress advocates go "she's deadly in the right situations!" Note the fact all of these situations happen in fights against noobs... enchantresses ability is nulled by those with realization, we're not gonna move into her squares to attack her if she's fully recovered. Unless theres an assassin we get to move the turn after too. So, chuck her for better damage potential, i recommend a frost golem (yay gold accounts) or any of the units at the very top, they always win. Or any other unit, she comes out just a little bit lower than everythin else... if you chuck her your con is against noobs with good luck and you have bad, you will lose. Your pro, against people with skill you will be more effective. Just think of how often you get to use her against anyone who doesnt make a bad mistake in regards to her.

Assassins versus Scouts versus Pyro's.
*everyone draws back as I include the dreaded "I suck im a pyro" in this topic*
Pros Assassins... Movement. Like crazy. Attack very useful in right situations. Only unit that with all math factored in and probability being even probability not the "dice gods hate you" probability, that will win a 1v1 with a fighter (always attack from behind, movement allows this on any knight that just attacked you. Knight will always have to attack you from the sides, you with a (edit to change 40% to 35%)35% block rate. You always deal damage, he doesnt.... do the math, you JUST BARELY do 50 damage before he deals 35.) Cons assassin... sometimes smart people will use your attack against you. Never hit your own units... its worth it just to move, then move attack rather than hit your own. Watch the delay on his cleric though if you elect to do this.

THE MATH FULLY RUN
Assassin does 17 damage to knight. Knight does 19 to assassin. Assassin, 35 health, and yes, 35% block to sides. Knight has 50 health and block doesnt matter because he gets flanked every attack. According to probability, knight should hit once, miss once, and hit for kill. Assassin should hit every time... so...

First round. Knight attacks, assassin is down to 16 health. Assassin attacks knight, knights down to 33 health.

Second round... knight attacks assassin and misses. Assassin attacks knight and gets him down to 16 health.

Third round, knight attacks assassin and assassin dies before he can attack.

But wait... what happens if assassin attacks first... it gets a killing blow before knight! So guess what... knight=assassin in 1v1, the first blow rules. But only if probability is playing truly random, 1 hit then one miss as probability states it should be.
Note this information is included in a post below this

Pros Scout...
Now, we got some great movement, a good attack with GREAT range, and some horrible delay for what he is. that makes me sad people... Such potential. I could say he's good for cleric killing, but when your using a scout to hit cleric you definitely dont have anyone in range to make another attack on cleric for the kill. Could say he's good for mage killing but scout only hits one unit. He loses... basically. Great range.... I would say hes good for breaking enchantress concentration. Then again, you shouldnt be playing with enchantresses by now.

Pros Pyro....
Take the scout... add a little more to his delay, knock his power down just a little (i consider this little loss in comparison to the im never blocked thing), and take away his great movement. Now add an attack that covers 5 spaces. Now, you will never hit 5 units with this... 3 on a good attack, 2 normally, but all in all... weighed against your archer... i think he comes out better. Imagine what three pyro's could do, all in succession. You kill everything but a fighter who's down to 10 health that way. I personally think his "i can hit wards, I never miss, and I hit way more people that you" beats the scouts "well im nearly as slow delay wise as you, i get blocked, and I cant hit wards but I move really far when i do move... and... and..." so it ends up being assassins>pyro>scout. Now toss in two scouts and I sing a different tune... used to do that, two scouts becomes deadly. One scout is pfft. I never really see them shine 1v1 2v2 or in an actual game. as for the whole assassin>pyro>scout, do remember that you definitely need a ranged unit though... two preferably at the minimum.

Alright alright... let the "I'm wrong flames" begin.

This is to be continually updated, changed so on so forth.
Feel free to post about it, but do make the posts semi constructive... I havent actually run most of this math, its based on experience and mental math, so if you actually run it and assassin does lose out, hey thats the truth. I will eventually run the math on all these units. And add golems. And other strategies. This was intended for gold strat forum, but im gonna add prettier stuff for them, like maybe the full and final version of this whole thing. Now... post back. Comments... whatever.

Good luck at TAO.

[Hashish_Scout]

nice list :cool:

[xyxaxyz2]

Scout's recovery is only 2. That isn't bad at all. The only time he can't make second hit is if the cleric is well defended, but if they waste units defending the cleric use him to kill magic users. His blocking is good too.

Enchantress is better than you say, the problem is most people only use her defensively. Attack lone scouts and assassins, and groups of knights. Also useful against lightning near endgame.

[ABronsonM]

Knights are better than assassins. Period. Knights only need 2 hits against the 35% side block *not 40%* of the assassin, while assassins need 4 hits to take down the knight. Basically in your average battle, knights will win. Assassins may be useful but if you ever get them flanked they are dead.

[xyxaxyz2]

Assassins are faster they can kill entire groups of magic users if you have a pyro supporting them or their cleric is dead.

Also, because they have 18 attack and great speed great against clerics.

[ABronsonM]

A good player defends against the assassin rush. Trust me on that one :(

[xyxaxyz2]

1. Most players aren't good.
2. Defending is expensive.

[icedragon]

What on earth are you talking about? I think assassins rock because
A) They look cool.
B) They have one of the best recovery times in the game.
C) there attack is wicked, especially if you are surrounded
D) They are fast like crazy.

[darkdelirium]

okay, okay... as for the assassin versus knight thing... lets run the math fully. bout time i did that...

Assassin does 17 damage to knight. Knight does 19 to assassin. Assassin, 35 health, and yes, 35% block to sides. Knight has 50 health and block doesnt matter because he gets flanked every attack. According to probability, knight should hit once, miss once, and hit for kill. Assassin should hit every time... so...

First round. Knight attacks, assassin is down to 16 health. Assassin attacks knight, knights down to 33 health.

Second round... knight attacks assassin and misses. Assassin attacks knight and gets him down to 16 health.

Third round, knight attacks assassin and assassin dies before he can attack.

But wait... what happens if assassin attacks first... it gets a killing blow before knight! So guess what... knight=assassin in 1v1, the first blow rules. But only if probability is playing truly random, 1 hit then one miss as probability states it should be.

So, there :D... assassin is more flexible than knight, gets more damage potential, and better movement with same delay.

[Shadoww3]

you forgot the tremendous armor advantage

sorry- no you didn't

no wait, you must have- 25% of 18 isn't 17

[darkdelirium]

yup. thats right ;)

[bladetalon]

assassin sucks... plain and simple... any damage you could do when 'surrounded' (like that's a good thing) before you get mauled, is negligible, cause the cleric can just heal it...

I'm thinking you guys are just reminded of diablo by her....

[bladetalon]

don't dump on the enchantress either.... you can save a lot of turns using it on the legion of noobs out there.

[xyxaxyz2]

Because assassins are fast they can also move into better defensive positions than knights. Their real advantage is speed. Knights are just to slow to be useful for much of the game. Assassins are where you need them and can run when they must.

[Dragonslayers]

Yes, the Knight does beat the Assassin, but only technically.

Knight does 22 damage. Assassin removes 12% of that for 19.36. Only 65% of the time does the hit land; so we can say an average of 12.584 hp lost per "round". Since the Assassin has 35 hp, it takes her 2.781 turns to die [the absolute "average"].

Assassin does 18 damage. Knight removes 25% of that for 13.5 total. No armor, of course, since the Assassin always strikes from behind. Since he has 50 hp, it takes him 3.703 turns to die [average].

The difference is so small [1 turn] that the advantage of having the first strike is really negligible. Besides, EVERY human unit will lose mano a mano to a freshly healed Knight. Just look at the Dark Witch, for instance. Let's say she can always get to the side. That's .60*.75*24 for only 10.8 damage average, even LESS than the Assassin. And the recovery time is triple the Assassin's. The Knight EASILY beats the Witch [.9*22= 19.8 damage, nearly double the damage at nearly triple the pace].

So what's the lesson? The Assassin's two greatest assets are obviously her ability to get behind the Knight [thus giving 1.66x as much damage] and her fast recovery [equal damage pacing with Knight].

The best use for the Assassin is not 1-1 with Knight. Just let her hang back, and then move her up quickly to strike any side-turned knight [you can thus get behind with 2 fewer movement points]. And then right back to safety :D

Of course, if a Knight is even slightly damaged, it's easy pickings ;)

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Dragonslayers
Yes, the Knight does beat the Assassin, but only technically.

Knight does 22 damage. Assassin removes 12% of that for 19.36. Only 65% of the time does the hit land; so we can say an average of 12.584 hp lost per "round". Since the Assassin has 35 hp, it takes her 2.781 turns to die [the absolute "average"].

Assassin does 18 damage. Knight removes 25% of that for 13.5 total. No armor, of course, since the Assassin always strikes from behind. Since he has 50 hp, it takes him 3.703 turns to die [average].

The difference is so small [1 turn] that the advantage of having the first strike is really negligible. Besides, EVERY human unit will lose mano a mano to a freshly healed Knight. Just look at the Dark Witch, for instance. Let's say she can always get to the side. That's .60*.75*24 for only 10.8 damage average, even LESS than the Assassin. And the recovery time is triple the Assassin's. The Knight EASILY beats the Witch [.9*22= 19.8 damage, nearly double the damage at nearly triple the pace].

So what's the lesson? The Assassin's two greatest assets are obviously her ability to get behind the Knight [thus giving 1.66x as much damage] and her fast recovery [equal damage pacing with Knight].

The best use for the Assassin is not 1-1 with Knight. Just let her hang back, and then move her up quickly to strike any side-turned knight [you can thus get behind with 2 fewer movement points]. And then right back to safety :D

Of course, if a Knight is even slightly damaged, it's easy pickings ;)

I think he meant that the assasin will beat the crap outta the kngiht and hit the knight for more damage, but since the knight has higher HP he will end up being the survivor :P.

[darkdelirium]

Agreed. I only say with luck on your side an assassin will kill a knight 1v1, and is far more effective against other units thanks to flexibility. Therefore assassin>knight. Assassin will bring it darn close fight to a knight if not a kill... no matter how the math runs the knight ends in 16 health i do believe... maybe not with seed's first scenario but then again you wouldn't know about that.

you should be goldie's ;)

[Aezeal]

I'd say knight is better than assasin. The reason is most combi of damage with a knight adn some other unit vs an assasin and another unit gives the knight a kill and not the assasin.

But really I use em both.. since they are both good for different things... I don't consider the assasin a unit I fight knight with btw.

assasins go to finish the mages etc.

anyway

about witches and pyro's

I got 2 witches and I play with em but I dnt'really think they are better than pyro's

reasons
witch is not flexible.. the straight lines it shoots means you have to move almost everytime.

having a 2nd witch doesn't make much difference, while pyro's often get a chance to deal 2-3 units damage in one attack noone is foolish enough to line op their units for the witch her attack..

so even if 1 of my witches can hit 2 units (3 never happens, not against good players) the other one will NEVER do that in the same game (against good players that is)

and scouts just rock... they are the best support and cleric kill unit there is.. 2 scouts are dangerous to everyone.

[darkdelirium]

Agreed. Pyro is far more flexible and often enough does get more hits.. witch does usually get 2 hits if you move her two. But the fact players won't line their people up for an attack by her is one of her pluses...

she can heard. If you want a good example, try a game where you have two witches started on near teh far sides opposite of eachother. Its an odd kinda thing, mages will end up bein put in the middle if you get enough time to dig your witches in deep for side attacks, and their knights will be moved to the outer edge (so as to attack the witches)... usually.

[darkdelirium]

Oh and when you say two scouts are dangerous, you should be a goldie too ;)

I kept the unit combo's discussion for there.

[LondonJack]

Nice list, on target for the most part, I have a bone to pick about your knight vrs. assassin thing though :)

You didn't set it up in a realistic game situation for starters, a head to head match up between a knight and assassin isn't likely, there's always someone/something else around or something going on across the board that forces the battle to be put off a few rounds, potentially striping your assassin of her movement advantage.

Secondly, the damge a unit can do isn't always the best measure of how effective a unit can be. When your assassin's blocking fails, she's dead next hit. If she's been hit hard enough she's dead next hit even with a heal (if i'm not mistaken that's possible with Lward/witch)

The Knight on the other hand is around for 3 hits, doesn't matter what you do to him, doesn't matter if lady luck is your love slave, you will have to do the maypole dance with that knight for 3 turns that could've been used elsewhere.

Maybe that's a defensive mind set, but the knights can't really be called slouchs on the offensive, just slow, but if your facing someone that believes assassins are more effective, they will be coming to you, so that doesn't really matter.

[darkdelirium]

Wow... well said.

Now now... I threw out the math to support it, and your very much true, the knight vs. assassin thing gives the other player a turn where their knight is in recovery, so they can move any other unit they please.

I suppose the point of it is to show that the assassin can equal the knight in good hard mellee in late game. As for not being put in a very good hypothetical situation, true... all hypotheticals in this game deal with 1v1's because its too hard to illustrate points in 2v2's because what units you gonna show?

I merely want to put the point out that (as according to the nice "whos your favorite unit" polls) the assassin is far more effective than people are giving her credit for. A 35 health unit with lower block than a 50 health unit can actually kill that one, with fairly decent chance. fairly.

Besides, seed posted a good anti assassin with knight strategy that throws lady luck out the window... oh wait. thats in gold strat's. ;)

Point being (debate always taught me not to end a point in a negative to your side hehe) assassin carries more flexibility with nigh same offensive capability (potentially more if someone decides they like to give your assassin multi hits) than the knight.

oh i'll never give this up.

[Lone Wolf]

OK so the knight is better for a straight up fight. Yet,if it is down to the last two the units on the board and they are the knight and the assasin i think there is no reason that the assasin shouldn't win if the player is vaugley skilled and has decent amount of luck. Why? Well because she can get away after she attacks. She controls when and where the fight will take place.

She can get in and attack at the best opportunity. then the knight will attack, whether or not he hits she can either attack and leave (not what i would recommend) or just move away which allows u to move again the next turn puttin even more room between u and the knight. allowing him only head on shots by moving where he can only attack u at the front. then she can either attack head on (and take the big gamble) and be able to get away again or attack at the back and take his hit when he recovers.

(I know there is probably something wrong with this but im to hungry to figure it out right now, if u coulod post what it is i will be very happy thank u)

If the assasin manages to have a barrier ward when the Knight vs Assasin occurs is all over for the knight.

- Lone Wolf

[darkdelirium]

Wooh a fellow zealot!

*cough cough*

I mean rational thinker!

Oh yes, the problem with the math at the top of the page is the fact that your doing it on a damage per round basis... if assassin lands a killing blow in last round there is no oppurtunity for knight to make a killing blow, and assassin wins out. But if knight goes first and you make that one block probability owes to you, assassin wins out.

But his points are very very very much valid.

Assassins, should not go 1v1 with a knight. Your depending on a bit of probability of the pattern that the hits should be hit miss hit hit miss (this is where it repeats itself) hit miss hit hit...

They should just kill everyone else on the board.

Including wards.

(that is actually possible, for an assassin to make a killing blow on a ward. lightning ward too. now, for the grand prize of the priviledge of life (or a challenge on me on the banff server), who can tell me when!)

[Dragonslayers]

What you aren't taking into account is that on an empty board [which is our hypothetical situation right?] the Assassin will ALWAYS get first blow. She's faster than the Knight, hence she can decide where and how to join battle.

How can an assassin make a killing blow on a ward? If the ward is damaged and paralyzed? Then it can't block, and there will be enough damage to allow the Assassin to kill in one blow..

EDIT: It's never worth it trying to kill Wards, by the way. First you have to get in an Enchantress, then it takes a Witch blow and 3 Pyro attacks. And it doesn't even count as a unit!

[darkdelirium]

There are situations where its useful to kill wards...

And yes, congratulations... would you like your challenge of me on banff server, or the right to live? ;)

You can kill wards off with a pyro dark magi lightning ward thing too, thats the one I end up using. Why?

Because when they come to attack the mages, they dont die in one hit (though usually they kill one of them with their ward while its damaged). If you attacked their ward with your ward first, then you got your full recover right about... now... to blast at their unit with the advantage they don't have.

But I am also in agreement to an extent, I've only attacked wards maybe three or four times.

By the way, try using frosty the snowman (tm) to para the ward, if your gonna bother. Wait, your not goldies.

[Atomsk]

WAFFLES!

[Dragonslayers]

Ah, you're a goldie - and 15-0 I see - you'd kick my ass ;) I'll take the right to live.

I tried a Witch-Pyro-Ward combo for a while to take out enemy wards but the enemy would just heal. The LW has 69 HP [adjusted for armor], just enough to be taken out by the triple combo, but with a heal it jumps to 83, which means you need 14 more damage - another Pyro at least. With FOUR hits to take out a unit, and a contraption at that... it's just not worth it to me, especially at the beginning of the game when there are other opportunities for the Witch and Pyro - they can take out clumped formations for instance.

[unumplurum]

I usually only do the pyro/witch/LW thing when I can damage or destroy other units in the process. If you use the LW on their ward last, then you can hit their units near the ward with the witch and pyro and still have the ward available until the third turn in case they bring up a witch or pyro into smokin' range (so to speak ;) ). Although I've found recently that LWs are pretty much useless; usually they can get in a cheap early game kill but once your opponent has moved all his units out of range, they'll never get back in. And the cheap early game kill is entirely based on luck because no sane person would move a witch or pyro into range.

[AzN_GuY]

unless it was their last ranged unit and they just HAD to have their knight unparalyzed from the frosty holding it ;)

[abyaly]

1. Probability does -not- say that the knight will miss, hit, miss. Probability says that on average, the knight will hit (approx) two out of three times when attacking the assassin on the side. Two in a row is pretty probable.
2. If the assassin gets first attack, knight can go for a back shot.
3. If Knight gets first attack (side), then assassin can move behind him, attack, then move out of the knights side-striking range.

The knight will win if the assassin attacks head on, since it has a 2 hit kill with 3 chances to land the hit. (or, if the assassin plays it differently.. a 2 hit kill with one guaranteed hit)

But! The assassin can force a draw/loss situation by only giving the knight chances to hit from the front. If the knight attacks from the front, assassin wins. Otherwise, it can be a draw.

[Cross Punisher]

I'm afraid the knight does beat the assasin even with first attack

Turn 1: Assasin attacks knight from behind
Turn 2: Knight moves to side of assasin and DOESN't attack
Turn 3: Knight moves and hits assasin in back

Repeat two times and knight wins cause the knight doesn't have to take chances on a side attack when it can wait and get a back hit.

[swordking35]

you guys seem to forget one major asset, :D A CLERIC , they can heal the assasssin or the knight and if the assassin owner has serval they can heal the assassins til the knight hit them down to 4 or less then they can comacazi, taking out the knight and any units around it.

[Terps rock]

OMG THIS POST IS TERRIBLE

Chanty sux my god it a bigger deterent then a lw i beat golds only because of them you noob.

and like everyone said knight is superior in all ways

and you noob noob noob
Scout is superior to everyone unit even knight, can not beat a knight one on one but it doesnt have too. Pyro's suck then die too quick plus easily healed

my ideas on this
NOOBS NEVER MAKE STRATEGY GUIDE'S

[cuckoo]

OMG THIS POST IS TERRIBLE

Chanty sux my god it a bigger deterent then a lw i beat golds only because of them you noob.

and like everyone said knight is superior in all ways

and you noob noob noob
Scout is superior to everyone unit even knight, can not beat a knight one on one but it doesnt have too. Pyro's suck then die too quick plus easily healed

my ideas on this
NOOBS NEVER MAKE STRATEGY GUIDE'S

Of course smart, non-n00bs like Terps would always remember to look at the
date this was posted.

[OtheDEFENDER]

well, is it just me, or was a lot of that list a little unclear, with some questionable english at times? Well, anyways, illiteracy aside, I think that your views on the enchantress are a bit, well, how can i put this? wrong? Are we talking about only golds in this list? If so, then yes, the chanty is not all that useful, but, if we are speaking of greys, the enchantress has much more pontential than you lead people to believe. If paired with a barrier ward, an enchantress, on the back line, saved for endgame can be a valuable asset. Just think, when in endgame, an enchantress, and bw, along wiht a single attacking unit can beat two knights. It just seems that you make people think that the enchantress is completely useless. I think that both Bottle and nads do a better job describing how useful the enchantress is, I will recommend Bottle's strategy guide, and nad's chanty guide for all of you who actually want to know the truth about the enchrantress.