Rock, Paper, Turtle! (Heh, Edited Title)

[Dresicos]

Advantages and Disadvantages

Ok well I have been thinking about what kind of formation will beat the other, there is most likely a thread for this somewhere and I didn't search hard enough to find it. Oh well, bite me.

As said by Steve12, we are saying that both players are of equal skill in each of this many situations.

So what I am trying to get at is the usual Rush > Turtle, Anti > Rush, Turtle > Anti. That type of thing, I believe it all depends on the set because I have beaten at least 3 opposite side turtles with my Anti today. Eh but here it goes, correct me if I am wrong on anything or feel free to criticize and/or help out.

Advantages

The Rush vs. Turtle

The Rush beats the turtle in multiple occasions. Most of the time this type of formation is to get the cleric quickly without to much suicide. While the Turtle formation is meant to be played defensively and save cleric in certain situations. Although the turtle is meant to do this, the rush (most of the time) just has to much fire power for the turtler to handle and the game would be over soon.

The rush same side to a turtle, you figure the rush would win. The rush (set middle) will likely win too, but there are those times when its an offensive turtle and its a little trickier than other times. Better yet, what if its a defensive turtle and its just hard getting close without losing a precious unit such as the mud golem? Lets just go with Rush > Turtle (When Rush set middle). The rush vs opp side turtle, the turtle is a pain in the ass. You have to get to that turtle QUICK so the opponent doesn't have the chance to stone then attack your units. In which you would probably lose because you have the disadvantage with your opponent having all that armor.

Anti > Rush = false.

In fact, it's difficult to make generalizations about rushes beating turtles either. These days, rushes are built to beat antis, so turtles usually crush them (the oh so surprising secret of Dumbledore's success).

Formation advantage is a lot more variable than just the general set.

I hate to say it Dres, but your rush > turtle equation isn't totally accurate. It's all about skill in the players. For example, in the first Half Cleric Tourny, I turted my way to 3rd place, going 4-2. I've also held off more than 50% of the rushes that I have been jumped by using a turtle form.

Yes, for two average players, the rush form will win, but an elite turtler can hold off a rush quite well (and no, I am no elite turtler. At least, not yet)

Soooo lets think of it this way - Rush > Turtle (rush set same), Rush > Turtle (rush set mid), Turtle > Rush (rush set opp).

Rush wins 2 out of the 3.

So lets establish this-

Rush > Turtle - Feel free to agree (please comment why) and disagree (please comment why)


The Anti-Rush vs. Rush

The Anti-Rush, I will call it anti from here on. The anti is just as it's name says, its made to protect you from a rush. The anti is made to defend the cleric just as much as its made to attack. The frosty usually plays an important part in this type of set but I won't go into much detail. While the your opponent is heading for your cleric, you have the fire power to return the attack and get his just as quick and maybe save yours in the process.

Lets think about this, an Anti vs. a Rush same side. I would think that the anti would win in this situation. Seeing as its harder for the rush to get its job done with you having your units in both defensive and offensive positions, its not impossible though to get passed this guard. Next we think about an Anti vs. a rush with the rush in the middle because an anti just isn't an anti if its in the middle (I have yet to see an anti set mid, which leads me to believe it can't be set there, without having major flaws). The rush now has some leeway with the anti being over more. The rusher will probably have more of a chance of getting a cleric around that defense I talked about. Although you have enough strength to fight this! And have the fire power (which I have already stated) to get his cleric too! Now lets think about an Anti vs. a Rush opposite sides. It just seems like the anti would win here because with all its defensiveness (yeah, made that up all on my own) it should be able to protect itself from any attacker. And if not, the Anti has the strength to attack.

Soooo lets think of it this way - Anti > Rush (rush set same), Anti > Rush (rush set mid), Anti > Rush (rush set opposite).

Anti wins 3 out of the 3.

So lets establish this, this ones easy-

Anti Rush > Rush - Feel free to agree (please comment why) and disagree (please comment why)



The Turtle vs. Anti-Rush

The Anti beats the turtle in some occasions. Most of the time its used offensively although its also set to be defensive, as what the turtle is supposed to do too.. While the Turtle formation is meant to be played defensively and save cleric in certain situations.

The anti same side to a turtle, you figure the anti would win (although offensive turtles are a pain in the ass most of the time, let alone defensive turtles. Yes there is a difference between the regular turtle and whether its set offensively or defensively). The Anti vs. opposite side turtle, the turtle is a pain in the ass. You have to get to that turtle QUICK so the opponent doesn't have the chance to stone then attack your units. In which you would probably lose because you have the disadvantage with your opponent having all that armor.

^Taken from the top, changed a lot though^

I think it would be mostly the same thing as the rush vs. turtle explanation, although the Anti would have less fire power in any game, especially opposite sides.

The Anti can’t really be placed in the middle of the arena (if it can then you show me an anti without a huge amount of flaws). So we will skip Anti (set mid).

Soooo lets think of it this way - Anti > Turtle (Anti set same) and Turtle Anti (Anti set opposite).

It’s a draw, help me decide whether I should put the Anti as the stronger formation or the turtle.

So lets establish this-

Anti = Turtle, it matters how each set is placed (even though that excuse can be used for just about anything)- Feel free to agree (please comment why) and disagree (please comment why)


Yay, most I’ve written in a long long time. I am ready for school! I think :(


Ok, I read over this I think I'm not ready for school xD
Oh well I tried, tell me if ya like.
Also reading over this I think I missed MANY MANY formation types, such as the bomb, gray, and others.

[FreddyAdu23]

i like that u explained everything, but i beileve in rush vs turt it depends on the sets and the skill of the players because ive beat middle rushes with a turtle, u need to know about late game stoning

but overall great work

Edit : First post!

[Nitanius Nolund]

I hate to say it Dres, but your rush > turtle equation isn't totally accurate. It's all about skill in the players. For example, in the first Half Cleric Tourny, I turted my way to 3rd place, going 4-2. I've also held off more than 50% of the rushes that I have been jumped by using a turtle form.

Yes, for two average players, the rush form will win, but an elite turtler can hold off a rush quite well (and no, I am no elite turtler. At least, not yet)

[Dresicos]

Time for Dres to get s/s's.

[Silver Coast]

To answer your question Dre whether the turtle is stronger than the anti opp side is a tricky one. Me personally, I have beaten almost every turtle that has played me opp side when I was using an anti, and I think I have a few s/s. Yes they weren't the turtlers like Puni, Mag, or bludz. But I think if the antier and the turtler have comprabable skill, I think the anti will win. Why do I think this? The anti has more attacking units and can gather its attacking force a lot better than the turtle could. But, a turtle could also beat an anti. I think, the only time a turtler could beat an antier is with a furgon and/or a LW. The furgon would block off the LoS to the stone and cleric and also block off the mud quakes to the stone. The LW would make most of the attacking units avoid the LW rather then charging through it. What I'm trying to say is, the only time I have seen a turtle beat an anti is when the turtler is doing major frosty whoring along with the furgy messing up the attacking forces especially scouts trying to defocus. As you can see, I didn't spend too much time on this. But I think this sums up what I think about your question. The answer from me will be shaky, but I think I will go with anti > opp side turtle.

[steve12]

I believe you have to state that when explaining the whole formation advantage thing, you should infer that both players are of equal skill.

[bludhoundz]

Anti > Rush = false.

In fact, it's difficult to make generalizations about rushes beating turtles either. These days, rushes are built to beat antis, so turtles usually crush them (the oh so surprising secret of Dumbledore's success).

Formation advantage is a lot more variable than just the general set.

[Dresicos]

This is what I was hoping for :) Keep it coming!

[Silver Coast]

Anti > Rush = false.

In fact, it's difficult to make generalizations about rushes beating turtles either. These days, rushes are built to beat antis, so turtles usually crush them (the oh so surprising secret of Dumbledore's success).

Formation advantage is a lot more variable than just the general set.

The centered dual scout rushes are annoying :dry:. But your scouts are very vunerable in my opinion. Against a rush or an anti. And if you go against a dsm rush..those scouts are cooked.

[bludhoundz]

I think centered scouts are a horrible idea for a balanced form. Like you said, a dsm will just completely roast them. Some good dragon & muddage will leave you choosing between a scout and a cleric very early on too, if they don't have a dsm.

I think that formation advantages are more subtle than just rush vs turt. It has to do with individual unit placement, and the overall mobility and damage dealing potential of the form. Some forms are strong on one side (antis), some try to spread it out and thus lose some overall concentration of firepower (rush / spread), and some forms need to develop their firepower first (turtle).

It's more than turt > anti > rush.

But you do have the right idea Dres, don't get me wrong.

[Silver Coast]

Some people say that rushes are too easily flankable. This may be true, but I also used to rush. And I have found over the countless battles that I have fought while rushing that including a frosty is actually useful. Most people just flank one side of the form and attack from there. But a frost golem will limit the attackers a little more so they don't reckess with lone knights and dragons. What I'm trying to get at here is that not all rushes will lose to antis and vice versa. Same with turtles beating antis, just like what bludz said, it all depends on unit placement and management. As we all know, part of being a skillful rusher is knowing when to sacrifice units.

[Dresicos]

Sweeeeet, I was just trying to get at something. As if the formation goes in a triangle of some sort.

Rush > Anti > Turtle > Rush and on, if I could make this more detailed in any way, then tell me! I really want this to turn out well =)

I didn't even use a smilie in the damn post! Rawr...
But yeah, I think everything just matters on formation.

[Anarchy_United]

My turtle beats Rushes, same side, opposite side, middle. It beats anti's, all sides. It beats turtles. As long as I am playing well, I win. There is only 1 thing that puts me at a true disadvantage, and I have still won with that happening.

Also, current rushes are different than old rushes. New rushes are designed to beat Anti's.

[Silver Coast]

I agree with AU. The new rushes invented are designed to overwelm the anti and and killing it's cleric. But every form has a weakness, and with enough skill any form can be beaten. So yes some rushes are meant to beat antis, but that doesn't mean anti's can't beat them.

EDIT: Check out this scary form :p. I was playing Replix (Argento) when he showed up with this.

http://i10.tinypic.com/63sy5o1.jpg

[phoenixofflames]

[SIZE
Anti Rush > Rush - Feel free to agree (please comment why) and disagree (please comment why)


I disagree.

...

I have to comment why.

...

Because i can pwnz your anti with my rush?

[Silver Coast]

Not all our antis :rolleyes:.

[Dresicos]

Exactly.

[Magician]

My turtle beats Rushes, same side, opposite side, middle. It beats anti's, all sides. It beats turtles. As long as I am playing well, I win. There is only 1 thing that puts me at a true disadvantage, and I have still won with that happening.

Also, current rushes are different than old rushes. New rushes are designed to beat Anti's.

It's the same with my freestyle form: If I'm playing well, I'll win regardless who I'm playing.

[Silver Coast]

Mag seems confident today :).

[phoenixofflames]

Also, current rushes are different than old rushes. New rushes are designed to beat Anti's.

Phoe rushes are designed to pwnz anything and everything.

[steve12]

Phoe, that GA rush was designed to crush Anti-Rushes, but our BR rush was a lot more versatile. In the hands of a good player, it was capable of takng down basically anything, except if someone directly counters specific units (which would be cheap).

[imagination]

i actually have been thiking about writing one of my annual "this is how i feel about the game and forms" type of thing that i usually call a guide but in reality its me just putting most of my recent ideas into words for the public. My recent thinking hasnt been directed toward forms but more towards playing styles. A player can use a form that is not supposed to be used with his style of play (which in a way kind of hinders their skill) but beat another form that is supposed to be the counter when in fact it was styles(yes i know this didnt make sense but i had a really tough time putting it into wordsso deal with it). So here is my rock paper scissors type of deal that i may go into great detail in another thread. 1) hardcore offense 2) hardcore defense 3) defensive/offensive combo. Like i said i will go into greater detail when i write my thread but with these styles 1 beats 3, 3 beats 2, 2 beats 1 in most cases.

[Neville]

i actually have been thiking about writing one of my annual "this is how i feel about the game and forms" type of thing that i usually call a guide but in reality its me just putting most of my recent ideas into words for the public. My recent thinking hasnt been directed toward forms but more towards playing styles. A player can use a form that is not supposed to be used with his style of play (which in a way kind of hinders their skill) but beat another form that is supposed to be the counter when in fact it was styles(yes i know this didnt make sense but i had a really tough time putting it into wordsso deal with it). So here is my rock paper scissors type of deal that i may go into great detail in another thread. 1) hardcore offense 2) hardcore defense 3) defensive/offensive combo. Like i said i will go into greater detail when i write my thread but with these styles 1 beats 3, 3 beats 2, 2 beats 1 in most cases.

Muggle.

[imagination]

Muggle.

nonono i am a deatheater that kadavra'ed you and dead people dont talk so stfu noob :p jp

[steve12]

i actually have been thiking about writing one of my annual "this is how i feel about the game and forms" type of thing that i usually call a guide but in reality its me just putting most of my recent ideas into words for the public. My recent thinking hasnt been directed toward forms but more towards playing styles. A player can use a form that is not supposed to be used with his style of play (which in a way kind of hinders their skill) but beat another form that is supposed to be the counter when in fact it was styles(yes i know this didnt make sense but i had a really tough time putting it into wordsso deal with it). So here is my rock paper scissors type of deal that i may go into great detail in another thread. 1) hardcore offense 2) hardcore defense 3) defensive/offensive combo. Like i said i will go into greater detail when i write my thread but with these styles 1 beats 3, 3 beats 2, 2 beats 1 in most cases.


Agreed. Although it depends on exact starting placements and early movements, I find that to be true.

[phoenixofflames]

Phoe, that GA rush was designed to crush Anti-Rushes, but our BR rush was a lot more versatile. In the hands of a good player, it was capable of takng down basically anything, except if someone directly counters specific units (which would be cheap).

Yah but i don't use that GA rush or that BR rush anymore.

[imagination]

Agreed. Although it depends on exact starting placements and early movements, I find that to be true.

true enough but but most people use a set that goes hand in hand with their playing style and so the exact placement of the units is form bases (which poeple place units based on how they will play) and early movements are based on their style. sigh i need to get to work on my thread...

[Anarchy_United]

Hardcore Offense > All.

[bludhoundz]

Only if the two players are the same level.

Many people have played hardcore offense and still lost.. because their opponent was simply better than them.

[Anarchy_United]

Well, yah. No matter how you slice it, the most important factor in a game is skill level.

[LosPollos]

Well, yah. No matter how you slice it, the most important factor in a game is skill level.
Actually, i think your internet connection is more important. :)

[KickAssPlaya]

In the words of the infamous Jonspen, "Pwndizzled!"

~KAP

[CRX687]

Advantages and Disadvantages

Ok well I have been thinking about what kind of formation will beat the other, there is most likely a thread for this somewhere and I didn't search hard enough to find it. Oh well, bite me.

As said by Steve12, we are saying that both players are of equal skill in each of this many situations.

So what I am trying to get at is the usual Rush > Turtle, Anti > Rush, Turtle > Anti. That type of thing, I believe it all depends on the set because I have beaten at least 3 opposite side turtles with my Anti today. Eh but here it goes, correct me if I am wrong on anything or feel free to criticize and/or help out.

Advantages

The Rush vs. Turtle

The Rush beats the turtle in multiple occasions. Most of the time this type of formation is to get the cleric quickly without to much suicide. While the Turtle formation is meant to be played defensively and save cleric in certain situations. Although the turtle is meant to do this, the rush (most of the time) just has to much fire power for the turtler to handle and the game would be over soon.

The rush same side to a turtle, you figure the rush would win. The rush (set middle) will likely win too, but there are those times when its an offensive turtle and its a little trickier than other times. Better yet, what if its a defensive turtle and its just hard getting close without losing a precious unit such as the mud golem? Lets just go with Rush > Turtle (When Rush set middle). The rush vs opp side turtle, the turtle is a pain in the ass. You have to get to that turtle QUICK so the opponent doesn't have the chance to stone then attack your units. In which you would probably lose because you have the disadvantage with your opponent having all that armor.





Soooo lets think of it this way - Rush > Turtle (rush set same), Rush > Turtle (rush set mid), Turtle > Rush (rush set opp).

Rush wins 2 out of the 3.

So lets establish this-

Rush > Turtle - Feel free to agree (please comment why) and disagree (please comment why)


The Anti-Rush vs. Rush

The Anti-Rush, I will call it anti from here on. The anti is just as it's name says, its made to protect you from a rush. The anti is made to defend the cleric just as much as its made to attack. The frosty usually plays an important part in this type of set but I won't go into much detail. While the your opponent is heading for your cleric, you have the fire power to return the attack and get his just as quick and maybe save yours in the process.

Lets think about this, an Anti vs. a Rush same side. I would think that the anti would win in this situation. Seeing as its harder for the rush to get its job done with you having your units in both defensive and offensive positions, its not impossible though to get passed this guard. Next we think about an Anti vs. a rush with the rush in the middle because an anti just isn't an anti if its in the middle (I have yet to see an anti set mid, which leads me to believe it can't be set there, without having major flaws). The rush now has some leeway with the anti being over more. The rusher will probably have more of a chance of getting a cleric around that defense I talked about. Although you have enough strength to fight this! And have the fire power (which I have already stated) to get his cleric too! Now lets think about an Anti vs. a Rush opposite sides. It just seems like the anti would win here because with all its defensiveness (yeah, made that up all on my own) it should be able to protect itself from any attacker. And if not, the Anti has the strength to attack.

Soooo lets think of it this way - Anti > Rush (rush set same), Anti > Rush (rush set mid), Anti > Rush (rush set opposite).

Anti wins 3 out of the 3.

So lets establish this, this ones easy-

Anti Rush > Rush - Feel free to agree (please comment why) and disagree (please comment why)



The Turtle vs. Anti-Rush

The Anti beats the turtle in some occasions. Most of the time its used offensively although its also set to be defensive, as what the turtle is supposed to do too.. While the Turtle formation is meant to be played defensively and save cleric in certain situations.

The anti same side to a turtle, you figure the anti would win (although offensive turtles are a pain in the ass most of the time, let alone defensive turtles. Yes there is a difference between the regular turtle and whether its set offensively or defensively). The Anti vs. opposite side turtle, the turtle is a pain in the ass. You have to get to that turtle QUICK so the opponent doesn't have the chance to stone then attack your units. In which you would probably lose because you have the disadvantage with your opponent having all that armor.

^Taken from the top, changed a lot though^

I think it would be mostly the same thing as the rush vs. turtle explanation, although the Anti would have less fire power in any game, especially opposite sides.

The Anti can’t really be placed in the middle of the arena (if it can then you show me an anti without a huge amount of flaws). So we will skip Anti (set mid).

Soooo lets think of it this way - Anti > Turtle (Anti set same) and Turtle Anti (Anti set opposite).

It’s a draw, help me decide whether I should put the Anti as the stronger formation or the turtle.

So lets establish this-

Anti = Turtle, it matters how each set is placed (even though that excuse can be used for just about anything)- Feel free to agree (please comment why) and disagree (please comment why)


Yay, most I’ve written in a long long time. I am ready for school! I think :(


Ok, I read over this I think I'm not ready for school xD
Oh well I tried, tell me if ya like.
Also reading over this I think I missed MANY MANY formation types, such as the bomb, gray, and others.

This whole formation = win thing is only a problem because ppl think too linearly with their formations, everyone just sees someone else's and takes it and ppl stopped even trying to build their own (moving a scout one space to the side doesn't count).

Formation types are generalizations,and the reason you can't pinpoint any absolute advantage is simply that, formations come in a gradient from counteragressive to aggressive, not type A, type B, or type C.

People should be trying to make balanced formations that give them the best chance of winning against all other forms (notice I said chance of winning because there will always be the odd form that has absolute advantage over you) instead of sticking to the one they're familiar with an refusing to play any form that they know they're weak against.

[gryph89]

Advantages and Disadvantages

Ok well I have been thinking about what kind of formation will beat the other, there is most likely a thread for this somewhere and I didn't search hard enough to find it. Oh well, bite me.

As said by Steve12, we are saying that both players are of equal skill in each of this many situations.

So what I am trying to get at is the usual Rush > Turtle, Anti > Rush, Turtle > Anti. That type of thing, I believe it all depends on the set because I have beaten at least 3 opposite side turtles with my Anti today. Eh but here it goes, correct me if I am wrong on anything or feel free to criticize and/or help out.

Advantages

The Rush vs. Turtle

The Rush beats the turtle in multiple occasions. Most of the time this type of formation is to get the cleric quickly without to much suicide. While the Turtle formation is meant to be played defensively and save cleric in certain situations. Although the turtle is meant to do this, the rush (most of the time) just has to much fire power for the turtler to handle and the game would be over soon.


It all comes down to unit placement in the long run. The common rush doesn't use two scouts same side, since the other side of the board will be totally open. Although the scout can reach that range rather quickly, it takes 2 turns to put it into a deadly position, more if you want to scrunge down the muddie.

Turtles lack the firepower needed to combat against rushes, but they have the stamina to maintain its composure against it.


The rush same side to a turtle, you figure the rush would win. The rush (set middle) will likely win too, but there are those times when its an offensive turtle and its a little trickier than other times. Better yet, what if its a defensive turtle and its just hard getting close without losing a precious unit such as the mud golem? Lets just go with Rush > Turtle (When Rush set middle). The rush vs opp side turtle, the turtle is a pain in the ass. You have to get to that turtle QUICK so the opponent doesn't have the chance to stone then attack your units. In which you would probably lose because you have the disadvantage with your opponent having all that armor.



once again, unit placement is a key variable to include. Considering you can't accurately portray 10,000 forms exactly. you can't really say its better or worse. Different side, of course. Cause now the turtle has gotten the basic 3 turns it needs to provide a shell around itself and either lock itself down completely or dismantle one side of the attack.


The Anti-Rush vs. Rush

The Anti-Rush, I will call it anti from here on. The anti is just as it's name says, its made to protect you from a rush. The anti is made to defend the cleric just as much as its made to attack. The frosty usually plays an important part in this type of set but I won't go into much detail. While the your opponent is heading for your cleric, you have the fire power to return the attack and get his just as quick and maybe save yours in the process.

Lets think about this, an Anti vs. a Rush same side. I would think that the anti would win in this situation. Seeing as its harder for the rush to get its job done with you having your units in both defensive and offensive positions, its not impossible though to get passed this guard. Next we think about an Anti vs. a rush with the rush in the middle because an anti just isn't an anti if its in the middle (I have yet to see an anti set mid, which leads me to believe it can't be set there, without having major flaws). The rush now has some leeway with the anti being over more. The rusher will probably have more of a chance of getting a cleric around that defense I talked about. Although you have enough strength to fight this! And have the fire power (which I have already stated) to get his cleric too! Now lets think about an Anti vs. a Rush opposite sides. It just seems like the anti would win here because with all its defensiveness (yeah, made that up all on my own) it should be able to protect itself from any attacker. And if not, the Anti has the strength to attack.


Anti's are generally made to combat against a rush in the long run. By either staying to the left or right side of the board. Why? Because a rush is an offensive move, much like football or any other sport. Rush is more like blitzing. Whereas the defensive line will try to penetrate the frontline, if that is impossible since the offense is just too overpowered, they will attack the hole with 2 people at once, thus causing a break in the line. Allowing the defense to control that play.

However, if one side of the defensive line is weaker than the other, it is fairly simple to completely shutdown that side. And work solely on the other one.

See the comparison I'm getting at?




The Turtle vs. Anti-Rush

The Anti beats the turtle in some occasions. Most of the time its used offensively although its also set to be defensive, as what the turtle is supposed to do too.. While the Turtle formation is meant to be played defensively and save cleric in certain situations.

The anti same side to a turtle, you figure the anti would win (although offensive turtles are a pain in the ass most of the time, let alone defensive turtles. Yes there is a difference between the regular turtle and whether its set offensively or defensively). The Anti vs. opposite side turtle, the turtle is a pain in the ass. You have to get to that turtle QUICK so the opponent doesn't have the chance to stone then attack your units. In which you would probably lose because you have the disadvantage with your opponent having all that armor.


Like I said up top. Turtles are meant to be defensive or offensive with alot of stamina. the cleric ALWAYS plays a key role in any formation it appears in. But it isn't always a key piece in assuring victory.



Yay, most I’ve written in a long long time. I am ready for school! I think :(


Ok, I read over this I think I'm not ready for school xD
Oh well I tried, tell me if ya like.
Also reading over this I think I missed MANY MANY formation types, such as the bomb, gray, and others.

lawlz, skool?!


Overall, you did a good job in singling out everything needed in making a basic comparison between the forms. But I'm quite certain I mentioned it on top, that the key variable in this, can never, and will never be accounted for. That key variable is formation piece locations.

This, is exactly like the "Search For The Perfect Form" Although I do strongly believe the perfect form is there, just not discovered yet. Although, now that I do indeed look at it. The Grey turtle, Turtle, Anti, and rush are all completely similar with the same exact playing style now a days isn't it? Well, guess you and me have to make up a new type of form then huh?

[Nitanius Nolund]

I actually can't say that I have ever used a real anti-rush. I had a make-shift hybrid turtle form that did very well against the rush (I think I might have a screeny somewhere, but I doubt it), but my main art has always been in the turtle. Actually, I shouldn't say that. I used to be a noob bomber until OmegaShin taught me to turtle properly over on Legends, and ever since I've been a turtler at heart. When I came to FPS I learned to freestyle, using some decent rushes (my Beast Rider > you) but I'm far from being an elite player in any style.

I think that no matter what the forms, it's about position and skill. Playing style itself involves a lot of thinking and can totally screw up an opponent's game strategies with the click of a mouse. Think about it. You have a rush vs a furgon turtle and you think "OK, so the furgon blocks LOS, let's get rid of it early", and then your opponent pulls out some amazing moves and not only can you not kill the furgon, but you're trapped inside a bunch of shrubs.

I did that in a turtle game against Bloody-Killer on Legends:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3023/bloodypwntjv3.jpg

Forms themselves don't really give you an advantages, unless the players are of absolutely equal skill, which you rarely see nowadays. Sure, you can have a DSM rush and lose that DSM first turn because it's on LWard side, but it doesn't really make a difference. If you are a skilled player you can take that loss of a unit and turn it around very quickly. This entire game is about skill and strategy. The forms we use dont make or break the game, but define our skill sets.

[Silver Coast]

I love Bloody :). He's like the only one ever on in SI whenever I log on.

[steve12]

IROK, very true. Furgons can put a defensive player (who knows what he is doing) ahead in the long-run of a slow-paced game. Although the Furgon doesn't seem to be much of a threat to Hardcore Rushers, it indeed can screw them over and allow the defensive player to take control over the agressive playing style. A Frost Golem will delay one's attack even more, and if gone about wisely, can shut down a rush quite effectively.

[Silver Coast]

I hate frosties :dry:. They ruin everything. The prescence of a frosty will make sure that your opponent won't just all out rush you. They must make sure they have support for their units.

[Dresicos]

When I use a frosty, I just keep it back and safe till end game. Thats when its used most strategically.

[Silver Coast]

Yep. I agree. That's why it's wise when attacking to be mindful of the frost and kill it so it won't be left for the end game. A frost golem is a deadly prescence when few units are left on the field.

[Nitanius Nolund]

When I use a frosty, I just keep it back and safe till end game. Thats when its used most strategically.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here Dres. Here is the reason why: frost golems for golds, enchantresses for grays, are both used as end-game units, and kept protected until then, but I don't see how it matters.

I use my chanty (or frost) at opportune moments, regardless of when that is during a match.

In a match against Twelve (my dropless gray form against his "impossible to beat form") for a competition he had on Legends, he moved a knight deep into my territory, and I chanty whored it. It cost Twelve a few turns to re-maneuver his units to take into account my style of play. I did end up losing that match, but there are many times when I haven't.

Point is, it doesn't matter when you use the unit it matters how.

[Silver Coast]

Very true. There are instances where I use the frosty knowing that it will be defocued. but if my opponent defocuses, I may be able to kill anothe rone of his units or his cleric. I also use it when the frost gets defocused, it allows me usually to get in one more vital heal that I needed.

[Nitanius Nolund]

Wow, reading my last two posts it's almost like I know what I'm doing >.>

[Silver Coast]

Maybe IROK knows what he's doing! :eek:

[steve12]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here Dres. Here is the reason why: frost golems for golds, enchantresses for grays, are both used as end-game units, and kept protected until then, but I don't see how it matters.

I use my chanty (or frost) at opportune moments, regardless of when that is during a match.

In a match against Twelve (my dropless gray form against his "impossible to beat form") for a competition he had on Legends, he moved a knight deep into my territory, and I chanty whored it. It cost Twelve a few turns to re-maneuver his units to take into account my style of play. I did end up losing that match, but there are many times when I haven't.

Point is, it doesn't matter when you use the unit it matters how.

Are you talking about that Gold Turtle Form he had with the DSM and Pyro and crap, that he declared the Ultimate Grey Killer? He hadtha challenge here on FPS, as well. I believe one or two people did manage to beat him with the form, but I don't recall who they were.

[Nitanius Nolund]

Are you talking about that Gold Turtle Form he had with the DSM and Pyro and crap, that he declared the Ultimate Grey Killer? He hadtha challenge here on FPS, as well. I believe one or two people did manage to beat him with the form, but I don't recall who they were.

Yes, that is the form I was talking about. I know one person beat him on Legends, but I only got to play him once, and I didn't play very well. I think that if we were to play now, there would be a much more interesting match.

[Silver Coast]

How long ago was this match?

[Nitanius Nolund]

Between 1 and 2 years. Time has been really weird for me. Some days wiz by, some drag on, so I really couldn't give you a good answer.

[steve12]

It was roughly 2 years ago.

http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19831

You're lucky I decided to dig that up, Arena. ;)

[Silver Coast]

Lol thank you :p.

Hmm 2 years ago? Jeese, you don't believe in rematchs do you IROK? :)

[FreddyAdu23]

i remember that i lost to it =(

[gryph89]

Mith beat it.

[Silver Coast]

And he got $20 :p.

[FreddyAdu23]

ive got 20$ =) but not from twelve =(

[steve12]

Mith beat it.

Ohh... THAT was who it was. I remember it was someone popular. Meh, I wonder how he went about beating such a form with Twelve on the other side of the board. It's too bad there aren't any Battle Reports or screenshots.. I don't think.

[Geoffrey]

Silver, I don't think your set is an anti. It is more of a rush with a frosty. As you obviously try and kill the cleric quickly.

[OFFLINE]

It was roughly 2 years ago.

http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19831

You're lucky I decided to dig that up, Arena. ;)


cliche did another one like it

http://www.tacticsarena.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29019

[Punishment]

http://www.legendsforums.com/showpost.php?p=106201&postcount=306

:)

[phoenixofflames]

Forms themselves don't really give you an advantages, unless the players are of absolutely equal skill, which you rarely see nowadays.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

say you can have a 1-50 points in skill, and 1-50 points in form, for a possible 100 points of winningpwnz0rness.

say I've got a 37 at skill, and you have a 41. my set compared to yours means that i have a 45 to your set's 36.

Now...i started with less skill (not even, like you said it must be). but my set compared to yours, mine has more strength. now advantage has shifted slightly. If we both play it smart, i have a slightly higher chance of winning.


People often tell me that sets dont matter, and it just isnt true. they say its the skill of the person using it that makes the difference....well skill is like me vrs you but sets are the weapons we are holding. Yah.. you are a bit bigger than me. Maybe taller? more experience beating people up? but if you have a remote control and i have a baseball bat...

I'd bet i'd win :)

[steve12]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

say you can have a 1-50 points in skill, and 1-50 points in form, for a possible 100 points of winningpwnz0rness.

say I've got a 37 at skill, and you have a 41. my set compared to yours means that i have a 45 to your set's 36.

Now...i started with less skill (not even, like you said it must be). but my set compared to yours, mine has more strength. now advantage has shifted slightly. If we both play it smart, i have a slightly higher chance of winning.


People often tell me that sets dont matter, and it just isnt true. they say its the skill of the person using it that makes the difference....well skill is like me vrs you but sets are the weapons we are holding. Yah.. you are a bit bigger than me. Maybe taller? more experience beating people up? but if you have a remote control and i have a baseball bat...

I'd bet i'd win :)


Mmmhm. One point for Phoe's, Steve's, and HH's ultimate formation search!

[FreddyAdu23]

well skill is like me vrs you but sets are the weapons we are holding. Yah.. you are a bit bigger than me. Maybe taller? more experience beating people up? but if you have a remote control and i have a baseball bat...
i agree with u , and nice anlogy (or however u spell it)

[ucanbeatmeisuck]

analogy =) i like spelling

[ucanbeatmeisuck]

and dude, i have to disagree with the "antirush vs. rush, antirush > rush 3 out of 3. My rush has defeated many great antirushers, such as people who have managed to achieve 1600+ through skill, not cheating or playing weak players.