is using a dsm cheating?

[~~CaTaNa~~]

right this has ticked me off for ages now and i just wanted to clerify that 'is using a dsm cheating?'

i was in a game earlier with siam331 on armageddon server and i challenged him out of the open and nothing was said in the lobby before he jumped me like for example 'no dsm?' or 'no stone?' or 'no LW' so i thought ok fair enough lets just get on with the game

as soon as my dsm blocked against his 'default gold set' he said that because im using a dsm and didnt declair it that i was a cheater...well im sorry but if you challenge someone and they dont say anything about the rules of the game or not using certain units its their risk to play in the first place..is it so wrong to use a dsm?

[Worker]

of course its not cheating catana....so why even be bothered enough to make a thread about it. :;)

[bobo99]

It's not cheating. He's just a idiot. Unless you specify a specific rule, and both sides agree, it's straight free. Just my opinion, all though I personally hate DSM's, I will never specify something like that. It takes the element of surprise out of the game.

[mino]

well, using a dsm takes No Skill but its not 'cheating' if you use a dsm.
Also, he said nothing in the lobby u didnt cheat.

[pils]

Siam is just a noob...

[Lord Shinok]

Lmao. Yeah, siam is a wanker.

I hate dsms. They're annoying as hell.

[gryph89]

well, using a dsm takes No Skill but its not 'cheating' if you use a dsm.
Also, he said nothing in the lobby u didnt cheat.

It also takes skills to properly use it and defend it in the right circumstance.

[Ignition]

ATTENTION: 18+ years of age content. Do not click the above link. A moderator has been notified.

[CRX687]

well, using a dsm takes No Skill but its not 'cheating' if you use a dsm.
Also, he said nothing in the lobby u didnt cheat.

Isn't that what everyone say when they have no idea how to deal with a unit?

[LosPollos]

It takes no extraordinary skill to use a DSM, but it does take a good amount of skill to use it in conjunction with 8 other units(i'm assuming it wouldn't be nine...cus that's a bit silly).

[steve12]

In my opinion, a DSM sways the outcome of a game too much due to its irregular blocking and massive range/power. It's not cheating, though. You can use it too.

[CRX687]

In my opinion, a DSM sways the outcome of a game too much due to its irregular blocking and massive range/power. It's not cheating, though. You can use it too.

It only sways a game too much when you let it. If you start with your muddy next to your scout, then yes, DSM will burn you alive. But in the end, it comes down to people's unwillingness to get creative with forms. And instead of changing the form to accomadate for its weaknesses, they simply refuse to play anyone who uses a form they have a disadvantage against.

[phoenixofflames]

if anyone can use one, it's not cheating at all.

[trugreatness20]

Ok bottom line is all golds pay for DSM so its not cheating. Secondly all units in this game take skill to use. For instance the first time i played Tungus his DSM use was amazing in conjuction with his set. Its like many who are skilled with the furgon, a good DSM user can control a game with it. Not becuase its cheating, but because they perfected their use of the unit. I must say if you are too much of a weeny to defend against DSM then you have no right to play gold. A GREAT gold can adapt his set to any situation. So basically using a DSM aint cheating.

Edit: Catana, Celtic tried to pull that same bullshit on me about how if i didnt use DSM he woulda beat me but i won by 5. And a win that big is not done by just one piece, sorry Cel you are a nub too.

[*Sanosuke*]

Its a unit, get over it. Its not cheating. If its there, you can use it unless agreed upon by both players that either will not use it. End of Discussion.

[A-99]

I wouldnt say its cheating because everyone has the option to use it, but I agree with most people in this thread that DSM take no skill to use. Its easy to defend, put it at the back with your dragon and no one will attack it because they're too occupied with the 4 freagin pyros and muddy thats rushing them. I agree with Steve though, because one lucky block ( even though the odds are against it) and the games decided. I definately agree with Trugreatness that we who oppose DMS's should learn how to fight against it, but its hard when the DSM is back row, you have 2 or 3 pyros upfront attcking you, and once you kill all the pyros, you have the dragon to worry about when many of your units will be wounded or dead. But enough of my rambling, let the DSM users have their fun. It's always a challenge to play against ;)

[MicSpor]

I use dsm.

Therfore dsm = good.

If you say they are cheap..it's because I beat you. :D

[Lonely Tylenol]

I wouldnt say its cheating because everyone has the option to use it, but I agree with most people in this thread that DSM take no skill to use. Its easy to defend, put it at the back with your dragon and no one will attack it because they're too occupied with the 4 freagin pyros and muddy thats rushing them.

So it's impossible to kill a bunch of units with 30 HP, 33% blocking and no armor?

Not to mention four Pyromancers is roughly equivalent to 21 power, which isn't even enough to kill a Scout in two turns... H-mm...

And then the Dragon itself isn't all that hard to kill unless it's stoned. Kill it and all your opponent has is a bunch of 15 power Pyromancers. Scaaaaary.

[A-99]

Yeah okay, take 3-4 turns or even 5 turns killing a dragon while the 4 pyro's destroy you. good strategy, ill try it sometime. Plus, a DSM user usually keeps his dragon back with his DSM, so its harder to kill it. You'll be relying on a dragon, muddy, and some scouts because knights wont be able to get there. So now your scouts etc are getting freaggin destroyed.

I did not say it was hard to kill pyros, but it definately takes a toll on your forces. even if a pyro had 21 power, if you're units are close together (and they 80% of the time are) its still gonna deal a shit load of damage, making you think to heal or just attack back. Just sharing my opinion, no need to bite my head off.

[trugreatness20]

No the best DSM users dont use DSM for its abilities they use it as a distraction. Think about what you are saying, you concentrate so much on the DSM and then all of a sudden you set is boned.

[A-99]

good point. lol

[gryph89]

I wouldnt say its cheating because everyone has the option to use it, but I agree with most people in this thread that DSM take no skill to use. Its easy to defend, put it at the back with your dragon and no one will attack it because they're too occupied with the 4 freagin pyros and muddy thats rushing them. I agree with Steve though, because one lucky block ( even though the odds are against it) and the games decided. I definately agree with Trugreatness that we who oppose DMS's should learn how to fight against it, but its hard when the DSM is back row, you have 2 or 3 pyros upfront attcking you, and once you kill all the pyros, you have the dragon to worry about when many of your units will be wounded or dead. But enough of my rambling, let the DSM users have their fun. It's always a challenge to play against ;)

Color coded these two parts.

What may seem as no skill to you comes as a basic strategy people made for it. Which is a quick burn and then destroy everything else. However, with every new form, a new strategy is implemented. You can't simply say "the DSM takes no skill to use" When in reality, it's easy to say a Pyro also takes no skill to use. Or a Knight. The DSM takes away the advantage of one unit. How you implement that is completely and utterly up to you.

Same thing up there as it is here. With no tactical gain of a DT with a pyro and a DSM, you're left with 2 units, at 30 Hp, with 3 wait turn that have virtually the same attack as a DT. It's not that hard to combat. Specially if the DSM is in the back row. Cause now you're only dealing with one, and have about 3-4 turns to mount an attack to diminish their assault. Multiple pyro's such as 2-3 would be even easier, it's like taking an unblockable knight hit. Nothing big, nothing small either. But due note. If 2 or 3 pyro's including DSM and Dragon are on the field, that is 5-6 units slots taken up with a unit that dies in 2-3 hits.

[sub the hendrix]

Yeah okay, take 3-4 turns or even 5 turns killing a dragon while the 4 pyro's destroy you. good strategy, ill try it sometime. Plus, a DSM user usually keeps his dragon back with his DSM, so its harder to kill it. You'll be relying on a dragon, muddy, and some scouts because knights wont be able to get there. So now your scouts etc are getting freaggin destroyed.

I did not say it was hard to kill pyros, but it definately takes a toll on your forces. even if a pyro had 21 power, if you're units are close together (and they 80% of the time are) its still gonna deal a shit load of damage, making you think to heal or just attack back. Just sharing my opinion, no need to bite my head off.

Then spread out your units out.

Or look at it this way: Three knights vs. a pyro, DSM, another pyro, and a dragon. The dragon is obviously a moot point initially. The knights die in three hits each, and each hit has a 100% chance. The knights, on the other and, kill each pyro/dsm in TWO HITS. ZOMG. Then we can introduce a cleric on the side of the knights. Pwn! And if the pyro dude heals it probably doesn't matter. So unless you're a super-noob, which from your complaints seems rather likely, you really shouldn't be having any issues.


Noob.

[Gypsy]

*looks around*

So this thread is serious. Hmmm.....*laughs*

IT R CLEARLY CHEATING DUH DAT MUSS BE Y IT WAS MADE BY ACCIDENT!

I'm deeply amused and satisfied now.

[CRX687]

The way to make DSM users pay is simply to make sure no two "weaker" units are next to each other in your opening set. That was before the first turn rule too, I LOVED playing bombers because those were free stats and anyone who used a busher was also basically a free unit... clerics can be handled by a well-made rush with or without that nubby thing, and the rusher that used one against me was basically giving out a free unit.

If you want a "cheap" unit, try the mud golem. It single-handedly makes the rush possible and is more important in cleric kills than any other unit. It also just happens to be much easier to use and doesn't block, so people don't complain about it.

TAO is about balance. DSM's purpose was so prevent forms from just being what it is today... a ton of cornered clusters of units behind a knight wall, it forces form innovation. It's only "cheap" because people don't want to innovate, they want to use the anti/turtle that they saw that 1600 player use and don't want to lose. A lot of the highest ranked players aren't good at tao, they're just good at avoiding the playing styles that their own are weak against.

[Anarchy_United]

well, using a dsm takes No Skill but its not 'cheating' if you use a dsm.
Also, he said nothing in the lobby u didnt cheat.
You're stupid. Play me if you don't believe me. If you don't like DSM, spread your units out.
It also takes skills to properly use it and defend it in the right circumstance.
Yup. Just stupid ass burn it gonna get your ass kicked.
In my opinion, a DSM sways the outcome of a game too much due to its irregular blocking and massive range/power. It's not cheating, though. You can use it too.
Knights sway the outcome of the game much more. A game without knights would change the game much more than a game without DSM.
It only sways a game too much when you let it. If you start with your muddy next to your scout, then yes, DSM will burn you alive. But in the end, it comes down to people's unwillingness to get creative with forms. And instead of changing the form to accomadate for its weaknesses, they simply refuse to play anyone who uses a form they have a disadvantage against.
AMEN!!! So true, that is why I simply refuse to play non-DSM games, whehter I was going to use a DSM or not. When your form gets beat by a DSM, it means your form is flawed, not the unit.
I wouldnt say its cheating because everyone has the option to use it, but I agree with most people in this thread that DSM take no skill to use. Its easy to defend, put it at the back with your dragon and no one will attack it because they're too occupied with the 4 freagin pyros and muddy thats rushing them. I agree with Steve though, because one lucky block ( even though the odds are against it) and the games decided. I definately agree with Trugreatness that we who oppose DMS's should learn how to fight against it, but its hard when the DSM is back row, you have 2 or 3 pyros upfront attcking you, and once you kill all the pyros, you have the dragon to worry about when many of your units will be wounded or dead. But enough of my rambling, let the DSM users have their fun. It's always a challenge to play against ;)
Anyone using a DSM with 2 or more pyros is generally stupid.
The way to make DSM users pay is simply to make sure no two "weaker" units are next to each other in your opening set. That was before the first turn rule too, I LOVED playing bombers because those were free stats and anyone who used a busher was also basically a free unit... clerics can be handled by a well-made rush with or without that nubby thing, and the rusher that used one against me was basically giving out a free unit.

If you want a "cheap" unit, try the mud golem. It single-handedly makes the rush possible and is more important in cleric kills than any other unit. It also just happens to be much easier to use and doesn't block, so people don't complain about it.

TAO is about balance. DSM's purpose was so prevent forms from just being what it is today... a ton of cornered clusters of units behind a knight wall, it forces form innovation. It's only "cheap" because people don't want to innovate, they want to use the anti/turtle that they saw that 1600 player use and don't want to lose. A lot of the highest ranked players aren't good at tao, they're just good at avoiding the playing styles that their own are weak against.

Wow, so much truth. TAO is about Balance, DSM does not unbalance, simply forces unbalance. Mud Golem is fairly cheap. Destroys most furgon based forms, turtles, and bombs. Yup, the only really high-ranked player I felt that was really good(during the time period I was good), was Tianchao. Still, I was a little bit less than 500 against him.

[bludhoundz]

Knights sway the outcome of the game much more. A game without knights would change the game much more than a game without DSM.

AMEN!!! So true, that is why I simply refuse to play non-DSM games, whehter I was going to use a DSM or not. When your form gets beat by a DSM, it means your form is flawed, not the unit.

Anyone using a DSM with 2 or more pyros is generally stupid.

1. Truth.

2. Truth

3. Doesn't your bomb have a DSM and 2 pyros?

BTW, anyone responding to the original question in this thread..

A simple "no" would have sufficed.

[Anarchy_United]

That bomb was silliness. I had to give an example of a bomb to someone, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't complete crap.

[~~CaTaNa~~]

i only wanted a no or a yes.....to the question basically saying if no rules are said into the lobby there are no rules? and i still have no answer!! lol

[bobo99]

No rules set in the lobby = Straight free. So, yes no rules.

[Punishment]

of course it's cheating.

The DSM is a cheating unit.

An unnamed jerk hacked TAO and put it in, and if seed ever came back he would remove it... Didn't you know?

[Dawg by Default]

of course it's cheating.

The DSM is a cheating unit.

An unnamed jerk hacked TAO and put it in, and if seed ever came back he would remove it... Didn't you know?

Seed wont come back
Therefore we are stuck with it
In conclusion it's not cheating;)